The Joe Flacco Thread (merged)

[Sami84]

That much is obvious. Why is it that SSS struggles to put up 500 yards playing with Newton, but puts up 500 yards in a month playing for us? Perhaps because Flacco is kinda good? So then, what makes you think Edelman wouldn't be productive here? Any reason other than you simply don't think things through?

 

And it's great that Boldin had a far better career. I even said that repeatedly. No one is disputing that other than you

 

and he;s been better than edleman every single year aside from this year. I'd like to see how good edleman would be with crapenick. Also Cam newton never built chemistry with SSS. He also was more a running QB in his earlier  years.

 

And to be frank he was inconsistent for quite a bit. This year has been his best.

[flynismo]

Let it go my man. Sami is entitled to his opinion and he's stubborn. Nothing wrong with it but you cannot convince him otherwise. It's fine. He'll probably grow out of it. 

 

I don't agree with either of you. Boldin was the better talent but was misused here in his time period. And a big reason why he was so successful in SF that first year was because Kaep locks onto receivers like a missile lock system. 

 

Edelman is actually a pretty good WR.  Got good hands, he's quick, good route runner. He would flourish on other teams. That's the truth. If you can do those things, you're a good receiver. He's more effective than Boldin was because Cam didn't know how to use the man. It's different then being better in my eyes. 

 

And let him trash us. It's fine. We honestly don't take it personally right?  

 

Well, I kinda do take it personally when somebody calls me delusional, even if the accuser isn't exactly ... well. Anyway..I've said that elsewhere as well. Edelman has the skill set to flourish anywhere. He has the exact same skill set as Derrick Mason did. And nobody would be silly enough to say Mason couldn't play well wherever he went, especially when paired with a QB of Flacco's caliber.

 

My argument isn't only that Edelman would have been better here than Boldin was, but also that on a skill level, Boldin was already on the downslope of his career when he arrived. That was very evident in his time here. He was not the same Boldin from the early to mid-2000s. The fact that he was grossly misused made the situation even worse, and undeniable, but my argument remains that the Edelman of the past three years would have been much better for us than the Boldin we had

[usmccharles]

Yeah! That's what I'm trying to say. It is what it is. Once you're a Super Bowl Champion, you're always a Super Bowl Champion. 

Joe is one of the elite QBs in the league right now. What other QB do you know who could put his team in a position to win the game throwing to the likes of Aiken, Brown & Givens? The only ones I can think of would be Brady, Brees or Rodgers. Elite is elite. What part of it don't you understand? 

I dont understand your thought process....see below

 

For a rookie, you're pretty sharp! Think about it!! How many Super Bowls have there been? How many QBs have been on the winning side? When you answer those two questions and learn what elite means, we can have a discussion. Yes, I think Trent Dilfer was definitely elite in one special season in 2000. Right now, at this time and moment, Joe Flacco is one of the elite eight. In the final analysis, it just depends on one's definition of the word ELITE. Yours and mine are apparently different. That's all! Have a great night, my friend!!! BTW, a non-elite QB who was 8-0 just lost to the 3-5 Houston Texans who are now tied for 1st place in their division (even though they don't have an elite QB either). Go figure!

Trent Dilfer has never even been considered elite, i dont think i would be going out on a limb saying your the only person in histroy to think that.  But like you said...Depends on your definition of elite.  But 1500 yards, 12 TDs, 11 INTs is your definition of elite, you really need to expand your list of elite QBs

 

That's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for them. 

Even in this extremely entertaining thread...this was the best thing ive read. 

[flynismo]

and he;s been better than edleman every single year aside from this year. I'd like to see how good edleman would be with crapenick. Also Cam newton never built chemistry with SSS. He also was more a running QB in his earlier  years.

 

And to be frank he was inconsistent for quite a bit. This year has been his best.

 

Who cares how bad/good Edelman would be in SF? What does that have to do with anything? The question is, how good would Edelman be in BAL compared to Boldin.

 

Cam never built chemistry with SSS? Why is it that from day one SSS put up big games with Flacco, despite never having the opportunity to build chemistry with him?

[Sami84]

Who cares how bad/good Edelman would be in SF? What does that have to do with anything? The question is, how good would Edelman be in BAL compared to Boldin.

 

Cam never built chemistry with SSS? Why is it that from day one SSS put up big games with Flacco, despite never having the opportunity to build chemistry with him?

 

because Cam was a runner not a passer. They also didn't get along..not a good combo that and the fact that cam wasn't very good until this year. pretty bad actually

[flynismo]

SSR was currently having a better year than Edelman until his injury too.

 

Of course he was. Flacco, despite the simple-minded criticism, is an absolute BEAST of a QB, and is a big reason for that, and furthers my argument...if a 36 year old WR that was released because he was over the hill can play like this for Flacco, why in the world would a talented WR in his prime like Edelman NOT be able to??

[Sami84]

Well, I kinda do take it personally when somebody calls me delusional, even if the accuser isn't exactly ... well. Anyway..I've said that elsewhere as well. Edelman has the skill set to flourish anywhere. He has the exact same skill set as Derrick Mason did. And nobody would be silly enough to say Mason couldn't play well wherever he went, especially when paired with a QB of Flacco's caliber.

 

My argument isn't only that Edelman would have been better here than Boldin was, but also that on a skill level, Boldin was already on the downslope of his career when he arrived. That was very evident in his time here. He was not the same Boldin from the early to mid-2000s. The fact that he was grossly misused made the situation even worse, and undeniable, but my argument remains that the Edelman of the past three years would have been much better for us than the Boldin we had

I disagree

 

Edelman wouldnt have done squat with flacco. Edleman is part of a system. He wouldnt have flourished with us. 

[flynismo]

because Cam was a runner not a passer. They also didn't get along..not a good combo that and the fact that cam wasn't very good until this year. pretty bad actually

 

 

Just admit it. Flacco is a BEAST.

[Sami84]

Of course he was. Flacco, despite the simple-minded criticism, is an absolute BEAST of a QB, and is a big reason for that, and furthers my argument...if a 36 year old WR that was released because he was over the hill can play like this for Flacco, why in the world would a talented WR in his prime like Edelman NOT be able to??

Oh please. SSR is a HOF receiver. Cam newton never looked his way. He's suddenly learnt to play this year ( newton)

[Sami84]

Just admit it. Flacco is a BEAST.

no he's not. He's a mid tier QB with a big and not so accurate arm

 

Did you see the stats larry fitz up in arizona during the dark days of QB for them? should i call the pre warner arizona QB"s beasts?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Sami84

[flynismo]

I disagree

 

Edelman wouldnt have done squat with flacco. Edleman is part of a system. He wouldnt have flourished with us. 

 

That's your opinion. My opinion is the opposite. The difference is -- there is logic behind my opinion, and I presented it. Now present yours -- what makes you believe Edelman wouldn't succeed here, other than his current success is due to the system he is in? Just because he has success in one system does not mean he would not also have success in another system. The only thing it proves is that the talent for success is there for Edelman.

[Sami84]

flacco has never had a great year. I am not a joe flacco fan. He's horribly inconsistent

 

That's your opinion. My opinion is the opposite. The difference is -- there is logic behind my opinion, and I presented it. Now present yours -- what makes you believe Edelman wouldn't succeed here, other than his current success is due to the system he is in? Just because he has success in one system does not mean he would not also have success in another system. The only thing it proves is that the talent for success is there for Edelman.

 

What logic? Where? I'm just telling you edleman isn't as good of a football player boldin or steve smith is/was. 

 

where is your logic? I use the eye test/career and stats logic.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Sami84

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Who cares how bad/good Edelman would be in SF? What does that have to do with anything? The question is, how good would Edelman be in BAL compared to Boldin.

 

Cam never built chemistry with SSS? Why is it that from day one SSS put up big games with Flacco, despite never having the opportunity to build chemistry with him?

SSS had a career revival when Cam came to town and made the pro bowl that year. I had him on my fantasy team... I remember. And then had a good season after that. Then he got hurt and the panthers idiotically cut him.I don't care if they didn't have chemistry. He was effective(partially because he was their only guy).

Because SSR is a damn good WR.

And Edelman would be productive here. There are WRs out there that can only flourish with a good QB. Edelman is admitantly one of them.. Guess what? Flacco is a good QB. Welker was that guy, in his prime he would have been a chain mover. In this scheme, where the short pass is prevelant, Edelman would flourish tbh

[flynismo]

no he's not. He's a mid tier QB with a big and not so accurate arm

 

Did you see the stats larry fitz up in arizona during the dark days of QB for them? should i call the pre warner arizona QB"s beasts?

 

Okay. So Flacco is mediocre, and Newton just learned how to play football this year. Gotcha. How did Benjamin do last year as a rookie over in CAR? Was he any good?

[Sami84]

Here is the best you can hope for flacco

 

25-27 TD

 

12 interceptions

 

3500-3900

 

59-60%

 

Thats as good as it gets. News flash..thats not elite and its only happened 1 time. Matt Shaub had better number under kuziak

[Sami84]

Okay. So Flacco is mediocre, and Newton just learned how to play football this year. Gotcha. How did Benjamin do last year as a rookie over in CAR? Was he any good?

 

Everyone has their day in the sun.

 

Watch amendola now that edleman is out. He will do exactly the same thing. its all brady.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Of course he was. Flacco, despite the simple-minded criticism, is an absolute BEAST of a QB, and is a big reason for that, and furthers my argument...if a 36 year old WR that was released because he was over the hill can play like this for Flacco, why in the world would a talented WR in his prime like Edelman NOT be able to??

He hates Flacco, has suggested we should trade him(which creates way more problems and solves none. Computer wise it'd be like If you had a non touch screen monitor desktop and you took away the keyboard and mouse. While also accumulating millions of dollars of debt because your wife decided to buy ten ferraris on your credit card). I heavily disagree. I don't think most people let alone posters know how hard it is to develop and find a QB. Flacco is at least someone. I think he's very good. Others look at that contract not realizing that the past three years he hasn't made that much money.

As for part two. Yes. Edelman in a short passing offense with a capable QB would flourish. He wouldn't be a #1 imo. We'd need a deep threat to compliment him. But he'd work.

[flynismo]

SSS had a career revival when Cam came to town and made the pro bowl that year. I had him on my fantasy team... I remember. And then had a good season after that. Then he got hurt and the panthers idiotically cut him.I don't care if they didn't have chemistry. He was effective(partially because he was their only guy).

Because SSR is a damn good WR.

And Edelman would be productive here. There are WRs out there that can only flourish with a good QB. Edelman is admitantly one of them.. Guess what? Flacco is a good QB. Welker was that guy, in his prime he would have been a chain mover. In this scheme, where the short pass is prevelant, Edelman would flourish tbh

 

 

SSS put up 1100 yards and 4 TDs if i recall. Then followed that up with 750 yards and 4 TDs. Then came here. Very similar numbers to Edelman, btw. Why is it that you-know-who can say that makes SSS a beast, but Edelman a product of the system? LOL

 

Edelman would be fine in any system, because no matter what offense you are on, you need a guy who can get open and catch the ball. He'll never be Boldin in his prime, or SSS, but what's wrong with being the white Mason?

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

SSS put up 1100 yards and 4 TDs if i recall. Then followed that up with 750 yards and 4 TDs. Then came here. Very similar numbers to Edelman, btw. Why is it that you-know-who can say that makes SSS a beast, but Edelman a product of the system? LOL

Edelman would be fine in any system, because no matter what offense you are on, you need a guy who can get open and catch the ball. He'll never be Boldin in his prime, or SSS, but what's wrong with being the Mason?

He had one season inbetween that with a similar stat line again. But point still stands.

There's actually a lot of truth to that last statement. So I won't dispute it. Now does Brady make Edelman look better than he is? Well duh. Brady makes Gronk look better too(which is absolutely terrifying when you think about it.. I mean, without Brady he's already the best in the NFL and with him he's an unstoppable Rage monster capable of conquoring galaxies).... Brady makes everyone look better. But Edelman wouldn't be bad here.

[usmccharles]

He hates Flacco, has suggested we should trade him(which creates way more problems and solves none. Computer wise it'd be like If you had a non touch screen monitor desktop and you took away the keyboard and mouse. While also accumulating millions of dollars of debt because your wife decided to buy ten ferraris on your credit card). I heavily disagree. I don't think most people let alone posters know how hard it is to develop and find a QB. Flacco is at least someone. I think he's very good. Others look at that contract not realizing that the past three years he hasn't made that much money.

As for part two. Yes. Edelman in a short passing offense with a capable QB would flourish. He wouldn't be a #1 imo. We'd need a deep threat to compliment him. But he'd work.

thats one thing i dont get, the non Joe supporters who want him go...they must not remember what it was like to not have a QB before Joe got here.  You dont find Qbs to keep around for years to come that often.  Im a huge Joe fan, but im realistic enough to know he's no Brady but he elevates his play when it matters. Much rather have a guy like Joe who can get it done in the post season rather than a Matt Ryan who can put up good stats and thats it. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

thats one thing i dont get, the non Joe supporters who want him go...they must not remember what it was like to not have a QB before Joe got here.  You dont find Qbs to keep around for years to come that often.  Im a huge Joe fan, but im realistic enough to know he's no Brady but he elevates his play when it matters. Much rather have a guy like Joe who can get it done in the post season rather than a Matt Ryan who can put up good stats and thats it.

This. Exactly this. As much as I like say a Jared Goff(who is the top QB prospect this year), there's honestly no way of knowing if he's going to be a good QB or not. It's highly dependent on several factors. Hell, well respected scouts thought that Jimmy Clausen could turn into a good QB eventually. No one really knows.

The "I know talent crowd" will claim they do, but reality is that QB is one of the hardest positions to not only evaluate but develop. We were lucky to have Cam Cameron who excels in developing QBs here. He in a lot of ways gave us a pretty good QB. Now I don't know about y'all but I have a flight to be on in a few hours. I'll reply when I wake up. Night y'all.

[Tru11]

SSS had a career revival when Cam came to town and made the pro bowl that year. I had him on my fantasy team... I remember. And then had a good season after that. Then he got hurt and the panthers idiotically cut him.I don't care if they didn't have chemistry. He was effective(partially because he was their only guy).

Because SSR is a damn good WR.

And Edelman would be productive here. There are WRs out there that can only flourish with a good QB. Edelman is admitantly one of them.. Guess what? Flacco is a good QB. Welker was that guy, in his prime he would have been a chain mover. In this scheme, where the short pass is prevelant, Edelman would flourish tbh

 

flacco is a different kind of QB then brady though and we run a different system.

 

edelman talent wise is not much better then camp or ross TBH.

 

he is just lucky he had the luxury to sit for 4 years and learn behind welker and build a report with brady in the process.

 

both are in synch with each other to perfection where brady will his edelman right after a cut on a perfect placed pass where edelman wont loose any momentum and thus can let his return skills take over for YAC.

 

here he wont be as good.

he really needs near perfect passes in stride to be effective.

[flynismo]

He had one season inbetween that with a similar stat line again. But point still stands.

There's actually a lot of truth to that last statement. So I won't dispute it. Now does Brady make Edelman look better than he is? Well duh. Brady makes Gronk look better too(which is absolutely terrifying when you think about it.. I mean, without Brady he's already the best in the NFL and with him he's an unstoppable Rage monster capable of conquoring galaxies).... Brady makes everyone look better. But Edelman wouldn't be bad here.

 

Here's the thing. Brady, Flacco, Rodgers, whoever...they don't make anyone look better than they are. They don't elevate their receivers play. What they do (as well as the system they play in) is allow their guys to play to their potential. That's a subtle, but very significant difference. It's the reason why certain people who are incapable of evaluating players other than to look at a stat line say Flacco is mediocre, or just above average.

And the heee-larious part about it is --- we finally get Flacco a guy with some talent in SSS and SSS is on pace for his second best statistical season ever (at the age of 36!!), and we have people saying Flacco is mediocre and can't have great success with Edelman, who is in his prime, as well? Being the Flacco thread and all -- people need to get a clue. Bring Brady over here and let's see if he's all that. Let's see him turn Marlon into a pro bowler. Flacco is a freaking' beast.

[flynismo]

flacco is a different kind of QB then brady though and we run a different system.

 

edelman talent wise is not much better then camp or ross TBH.

 

he is just lucky he had the luxury to sit for 4 years and learn behind welker and build a report with brady in the process.

 

both are in synch with each other to perfection where brady will his edelman right after a cut on a perfect placed pass where edelman wont loose any momentum and thus can let his return skills take over for YAC.

 

here he wont be as good.

he really needs near perfect passes in stride to be effective.

 

No, he doesn't. Half his receptions are him standing still on a screen, or dumps in or near the backfield, and then he makes things happen with his feet after the catch. The other half of his catches come on simple plays like slants and such where he is maybe 4 yards upfield and doesn't require much other than the pass be catchable be cause the goal on that play is usually to just pick up 4-7 yards. His talent after the catch is surreal, which is another attribute (along with reliable hands and good route running) that won't just disappear if he were to change teams.

[Sami84]

Here's the thing. Brady, Flacco, Rodgers, whoever...they don't make anyone look better than they are. They don't elevate their receivers play. What they do (as well as the system they play in) is allow their guys to play to their potential. That's a subtle, but very significant difference. It's the reason why certain people who are incapable of evaluating players other than to look at a stat line say Flacco is mediocre, or just above average.

And the heee-larious part about it is --- we finally get Flacco a guy with some talent in SSS and SSS is on pace for his second best statistical season ever (at the age of 36!!), and we have people saying Flacco is mediocre and can't have great success with Edelman, who is in his prime, as well? Being the Flacco thread and all -- people need to get a clue. Bring Brady over here and let's see if he's all that. Let's see him turn Marlon into a pro bowler. Flacco is a Freakin' beast.

the moment you put flacco between brady and rodgers i stopped reading

[Tru11]

No, he doesn't. Half his receptions are him standing still on a screen, or dumps in or near the backfield, and then he makes things happen with his feet after the catch. The other half of his catches come on simple plays like slants and such where he is maybe 4 yards upfield and doesn't require much other than the pass be catchable be cause the goal on that play is usually to just pick up 4-7 yards. His talent after the catch is surreal, which is another attribute (along with reliable hands and good route running) that won't just disappear if he were to change teams.

 

not really.

 

a catchable ball on a slant can lead to a catch.

 

brady however hits edelman in stride which is why he makes plays.

 

i dont see brady throwing jumpballs , force edelman to make bodycatches or force him to make catches behind him.

 

if he did he would not be as succesfull.....

[Sami84]

not really.

 

a catchable ball on a slant can lead to a catch.

 

brady however hits edelman in stride which is why he makes plays.

 

i dont see brady throwing jumpballs , force edelman to make bodycatches or force him to make catches behind him.

 

if he did he would not be as succesfull.....

 

yup

 

boldin made some incredible plays with some not so great passes from flacco in the playoffs. hence why i saw him as the true MVP

[TSizzle00]

Our OC has been trying it this year.  This is by far a career low in terms of yards in the air per attempt for Flacco.  The problem is that for some reason the play designs and/or execution just isn't working on that short and backfield passing stuff.  The receiving aren't getting yards after the catch.  I think it's because our receivers are all below average not only in the obvious category of receiving, but in the less visible (on the stat sheet) category of blocking.  The screens, backfield, and short to intermediate stuff relies pretty heavily on receivers & tight ends executing picks and blocks and helping the one who gets the ball make something happen after the ball is in their hands.  It also requires that whoever gets the ball be fast and shifty and tough and able to avoid tackles.  We don't really have that either.  Some of these guys are occasionally showing flashes of ability in some of those categories, but overall our personnel just isn't good enough to *consistently* execute those kinds of plays with a high rate of success and get yards after the catch.  It also doesn't help that both for some reason our guys seem to get butter fingers on those short routes.  Aiken and Brown have both had a large number of drops this season on those plays.  Trestman is REALLY trying to call those plays often, but the players are completely failing to execute them and actually get yards on them.

 

 

I can agree with that

[TSizzle00]

yup

 

boldin made some incredible plays with some not so great passes from flacco in the playoffs. hence why i saw him as the true MVP

 

Why is it when other QBs constantly get bailed out by superstar WRs with circus catches all the credit is given to the QB. When Flacco gets a WR who can do the same its all on the WR and the QB basically played only the 'small' part of getting the ball there? Matt Ryan surrounded in big time weapons his entire career, Manning always had great WRs who could make big game catches. Big Ben as well, heck Hines Ward caught so many poorly thrown balls from Ben (namely the low passes) because he was able to get down low enough to grab him and again the QB got all the credit. I'm not saying you're doing it but it just looks like nobody wants to give Flacco credit for anything. When he had weapons that were playing great (Boldin, Pitta during the playoff run) he did what every other QB who wins big games does, win. He is not a HOF QB but he is not nearly as horrible as people make him out to be. In my opinion. With some of these people's logic, we could of had Boller at QB and won the SB.

Edited November 17, 2015 by TSizzle00

[1/28/01]

I appreciate the condescending tone of your post my friend.

There's clearly no point in having this discussion if you truly think Dilferer was elite.

Yeah, the guys delusional and its not worth your time at all.