The Joe Flacco Thread (merged)

[1/28/01]

In addition to what we actually see with our eyes with Flacco's deep ball, take a look if you feel so inclined.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2491902-aaron-rodgers-big-ben-orjay-cutler-ranking-the-nfls-best-deep-passers

Disclaimer - If you like to keep your head in the sand about Joe's deep ball, don't click. You'll be SHOCKED!

Disclaimer #2 - I don't hate Joe Flacco (I have his freakin jersey in a case next to Reed and Ray in my basement which are all next to my purple pool table, the Ray Lewis signed helmet and Flacco signed SB ticket and lanyard).

[frozen joe flacco fan]

And yes, I agree when there is a drop it needs to be caught. At least I can agree to that. You cannot and will not agree that Joe needs substantial work on various throws (deep ball and fades as examples), but tend to only throw out contestable statements like he is the envy of all QBs with certain throws and that he is a top 3 QB in the game. Do you see that his footwork and mechanics are abysmal this year?

Much has been said about Joe's nervous feet. Have you ever watched Peyton Manning's feet? Its not

about the feet, is it? It about the feat. Who has more SB victories, Joe or Peyton? Yeah, I do believe Joe is the 3rd best QB in the NFL, period, behind this year's two SB QBs --- Brady and Rodgers. The key difference is that they have more battle-tested weapons to throw to. Joe's supporting cast of receivers beyond SSS is pathetic right now. Of course, he will make some of them look better than they are. As far as bias in my posts are concerned, the only Bias I ever believed in was

Len. Your footwork and mechanics would be abysmal too if you had Hurst and Wagner as your left &

right tackles. Fix those problems and maybe Joe's footwork and mechanics will regain their Super Bowl form when the threw 11 TDs and ) pics in the playoff run.

[Guest]

 

Statistics will get evaluators fired.  If one's facts are based upon statistics where does that leave the evaluation?

 

There's knowing and believing one knows. But in the end there's the truth. 

 

Anyway, thought you and the board might enjoy this little snippet of a back foot Flacco throw.  It's probably Joe's latest big game deep ball he will get statistically hammered upon. But really?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZ2s39oAWs

 

Here's Joes Collegiate competition. If he spirals either of them they go 85 yards.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fa_GrbdcjY

 

There that should do it.

[Tank 92]

lol......This Flacco thread, unusually, started out with so much promise. Honest and frank discussion with both praise and criticism. But as always, some feel the need to repeat and repeat and repeat the same old tired crap.  We've heard it already, time and time again.  Please find a new schtick.

[JoeyFlex5]

That particular pass looked to me like an iso route for Maxx, which is probably why Flacco rolled out to his right immediately...whether by design or not, Maxx was the only realistic target on that play.....you don't ever throw a ball 30 yards upfield and across the field, especially with all those DBs back there, that is a pick six waiting to happen.

That said, it was a hell of a pass. Great example of Flacco's deep ball...was just too tough a catch to make because he was so well covered

im glad someone else has common knowledge of football. people keep bringing up that marlon brown was open.. no he wasnt, to the untrained naked eye looking at a freezeframe, he may appear open. but is in increidbly obvious to anyone who knows better that marlon brown may have been the most covered target on that play, considering the fact that throwing to him is almost always an interception. see: brett favre, he was infamous for this kind of throw and he incoincidentally has more int's than any qb in nfl history.

[Guest]

Much has been said about Joe's nervous feet. Have you ever watched Peyton Manning's feet? Its not

about the feet, is it? It about the feat. Who has more SB victories, Joe or Peyton? Yeah, I'm a homer and I do believe Joe is the 3rd best QB in the NFL, period, behind this year's two SB QBs --- Brady and Rodgers. The key difference is that they have more battle-tested weapons to throw to. Joe's supporting cast of receivers beyond SSS is pathetic right now. Of course, he will make some of them look better than they are. As far as bias in my posts are concerned, the only Bias I ever believed in was

Len. Your footwork and mechanics would be abysmal too if you had Hurst and Wagner as your left &

right tackles. Fix those problems and maybe Joe's footwork and mechanics will regain their Super Bowl form when the threw 11 TDs and ) pics in the playoff run.

 

I read his statistical study. It's biased to the rubber armed QB's.  They determined that a "deep ball" was 20 yards.

 

lol

 

Agree with your point about weapons.  We had that AFC divisional game in our pocket if Torrey fights for that ball.  Still can't believe it.

[Ravensfan23]

My opinion on Flacco's deep ball is that it's very inconsistent which is obvious by just watching, but the reasons behind the inconsistencies may not be so obvious. Of course like with most things regarding player's performance none of us really know the deal, we just know that under throws guys far too much.

So here's my take. Like some have said, it's a comfort level thing and secondly Joe just gets lazy with his feet.

With the comfort level, it's a matter of personnel and how much he trust those guys to make plays. Joe was much better at deep balls to guys like Clayton, Boldin, Mason and even Housh. But when you continuously change around you it's tough to develop trust. Because of Flacco's big arm it seems that he rarely lets the ball rip in fear of overthrowing guys. So of the throws Flacco is missing he has made many times before. Flacco needs to develop enough trust with these guys because eventually those downfield plays will come back to bite you.

The other issue is Flacco getting lazy with his feet. Far to often relies on his arm strength when throwing deep instead of his mechanics. I get the mindset of wanting to make sure guys at least have a shot at catching the ball but more often then not it's better to put the ball out in front of the WR and let him be the only guy who can make the play. Throwing off the back foot is never.really good but Joe does it often.

Something i've notice this year is that while Flacco has been off on deep passes, Aiken has been bad at tracking the ball. It seems like he just runs as fast as he can and hopes the ball will land in his hands. Even though it's deep, route running is still important. He definitely needs to improve in that area if Trestman is gonna continue to give him a shot.

[flynismo]

Same way they do with overall accuracy, but most just use throws over 20 are "deep ball throws". Some would argue 30 or even 40 would be a better mark to use to determine a "deep" ball, but that's what they all mostly use at this time, 20+.

 

Completion % is useless when determining accuracy, if that's what the statistic is referring to.

[GhostofGrbac]

He has a top 3 arm, there's no questioning that. But throwing a ball far doesn't mean you throw a good deep ball. His deep ball is inconsistent.

[3-4ravdef509]

I think the truth on Flacco's deep passing accuracy is that it's not terrible, but certainly not as good as many claim it to be.I say we leave it at that. Truthfully, he's accurate enough to be a great home run hitter, it's more his aggressiveness that has played into the mantra of his deep passing accuracy. 

[Guest]

He has a top 3 arm, there's no questioning that. But throwing a ball far doesn't mean you throw a good deep ball. His deep ball is inconsistent.

 
Maybe not, but I once saw him drop three straight balls into a 33 gallon trash can at 40 yards and he was back footing them.
 
The thread is much adieu about nothing, because he's not our problem.
 
Right now we need some of our other WR's to rise up and quick. We have an outside shot to see the playoffs because those losses are early, but its got to change now.

[GhostofGrbac]

Maybe not, but I once saw him drop three straight balls into a 33 gallon trash can at 40 yards and he was back footing them.

 

The thread is much adieu about nothing, because he's not our problem.

 

Elvis Grbac was our problem and a host of other guys of that caliber, both past and current.

 

Right now we need some of our other WR's to rise up and quick. We have an outside shot to see the playoffs because those losses are early, but its got to change now.

 

What Joe did in a college football challenge (I'm assuming that's what you're taking about) has nothing to do with deep ball accuracy in an actual NFL game. 

 

Joe isn't the problem, but he's part of the problem. Everyone on this team deserves blame for this awful start. Joe has missed easy throws, just like Jimmy has been burnt, and SSR has dropped passes. 

 

I like your optimism (I honestly do) but we have no shot at the playoffs. 0-3 against AFC teams, and we're in the toughest division in football. I just don't see it. 

[1/28/01]

Statistics will get evaluators fired. If one's facts are based upon statistics where does that leave the evaluation?

There's knowing and believing one knows. But in the end there's the truth.

Anyway, thought you and the board might enjoy this little snippet of a back foot Flacco throw. It's probably Joe's latest big game deep ball he will get statistically hammered upon. But really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZ2s39oAWs

Here's Joes Collegiate competition. If he spirals either of them they go 85 yards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fa_GrbdcjY

There that should do it.

Should do what?

[beanfigger]

I can agree with this. His footwork and mechanics just don't look sound right now.

Timing is way off with the offense, passing and throwing. Nothing seems instinctive this season with Joe or anyone else. Too much thinking and not enough playing.

[CalvinSmoke]

Flacco struggles nightly with pressure up the Middle, but he's still the man. He still reminds me of Brett Favre, but that's just me. We can get by with weak weapons. Let's get this defense up

[Grapple Raven]

Mod note:

 

Even though we already have plenty of Flacco threads, I have removed the snipping from the posts as this started out as a decent discussion, but if anymore continues this thread will see a deep accurate pass to file #13, lol.

 

Please keep the discussion on an adult level without taking jabs at posters and stay on topic as this isn't a thread on Boldin vs. Mason.

 

Thanks.

[Tank 92]

Timing is way off with the offense, passing and throwing. Nothing seems instinctive this season with Joe or anyone else. Too much thinking and not enough playing.

 

 

Call me Captain Obvious, but it's all about confidence. If you don't have confidence in your teammates or the confidence that plays are going to succeed, you start thinking too much, become tentative and screw up even the most fundamental of actions. With good execution comes confidence and rhythm and success.  Just as the negative plays and thoughts feed on themselves, so does success.   We need the rhythm of confidence and success on both sides of the ball! 

[beanfigger]

Call me Captain Obvious, but it's all about confidence. If you don't have confidence in your teammates or the confidence that plays are going to succeed, you start thinking too much, become tentative and screw up even the most fundamental of actions. With good execution comes confidence and rhythm and success. Just as the negative plays and thoughts feed on themselves, so does success. We need the rhythm of confidence and success on both sides of the ball!

Yes, this is part of it. Another thing that might be the case is with Trestman we are re-working a lot of things, like a golfer changing his swing. Sometimes this results in two steps forward after a step back, but sometimes it doesn't. I'm hoping that is does, and I'm hoping that it does soon.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, receivers drop balls. Doesnt change the fact that his passes are routinely off when throwing deep or attempting a fade to the EZ.

 

I couldn't agree more!  

[K-Dog]

but here is the question no one can answer.

 

If a receiver is running and the ball goes past him,,,,,

Is the ball over thrown or was the receiver not fast enough ?

 

If the runner runs the wrong route and the ball flies to some other point, was the ball thrown wrong or was the route run wrong ?

 

Without a playbook in hand, we could never really know.

[flynismo]

but here is the question no one can answer.

If a receiver is running and the ball goes past him,,,,,

Is the ball over thrown or was the receiver not fast enough ?

If the runner runs the wrong route and the ball flies to some other point, was the ball thrown wrong or was the route run wrong ?

Without a playbook in hand, we could never really know.

for the first question, the answer is usually obvious by watching the receiver. Torrey for example (because his was the most glaring), used to slow down, zig zag, or round off his route trying to track the ball, which inevitably ended up in the pass being overthrown. Those were examples of not getting to his spot fast enough. Other times, he would actually run a decent, crisp route, and was underthrown. Was pretty rare that he ran a good route and was overthrown

[1/28/01]

but here is the question no one can answer.

If a receiver is running and the ball goes past him,,,,,

Is the ball over thrown or was the receiver not fast enough ?

If the runner runs the wrong route and the ball flies to some other point, was the ball thrown wrong or was the route run wrong ?

Without a playbook in hand, we could never really know.

If it's a receiver that the QB had thrown to before and the route was good and unaltered, it was overthrown. Not really something that can't be answered. Fairly simple really.

If the receiver ran the wrong route, the receiver ran the wrong route.

Not sure of the angle here.

[cursona pirate]

I love Joe. I think he is a reliable QB. Very blue collar. Every QB has his weaknesses. What counts as elite? I don't know but in my head Joe is in there. 

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

I will be the first among many to say Joe can and needs to play better. Even with last year being his best statistically, I thought he needed to make some changes and improvements. This year hasn't shown much improvement. He throws off his back foot a lot, is a little jumpy, at times inaccurate and irresponsible with the ball on some of his throws. 

 

Also, as 01/28/2001 would like to point out, his deep ball isn't as good as we can sometimes make it out to be. 10-25 yards is Joe's biggest strength.

 

So I wanted that all out on the table as a big neon disclaimer before I get to my point.

 

Many here are guilty of making terrible, and I mean absolutely terrible judgments about the play and the PAY of our quarterback. Some so terrible they make me question their football IQ. And I know many of you have tried calling them on these things when they happen, but I felt the need to make a post trying to make a more noticed attempt to correct these misconceptions. 

 

The mods might also decide to close this as I'm rehashing a lot of what's already been said before and this might not be a thread they wish to keep open as it's about Joe and these threads tend to get ridiculous. And the ridiculousness comes from both sides, homers and haters. Apologists and mudslingers.

 

Anyways, here's some of the most common misconceptions I wish to clear up.

 

1.) Joe is overpaid.

 

This is by far the most annoying thing. My reaction every time i read this is to   and 

So let's just say this one is easy to prove incorrect. As first of all, the total value and guaranteed $s of the contract are on par with a Super Bowl winning quarterback. In fact, with some of the contracts that have since been signed, Joe is on the cusp of looking underpaid during the times where he's playing well.

 

Also, the most important thing to me is Cap Space, which has always been reasonable. Next year they will have to restructure. It's in Joe's best interest, and the front office's. It's almost a foregone conclusion it will get done and set his cap somewhere between 19-22 AACH (Average Annual Cap Hit.) Which is again, what you pay for a Super Bowl winning quarterback. This leads me into my next point, but before that, a footnote that our cap situation is obviously very bad due to paying players like Pitta, Rice, Ngata, Suggs, etc with dead money and/or their big contracts and they are currently injured/and or both.

 

2.) Joe's 2012 Super Bowl run was a fluke.

 

Now this isn't as stupid and easy to disprove as the first one. But, to me it's still laugh worthy to say it was a fluke. First, let's spell it out - Joe Flacco led the Ravens and won 4 playoff games including the Super Bowl and was named the MVP of the Super Bowl, with a 100+ quarterback rating in each game, a come from behind victory in the Divisional Round, 3 straight games of 3Tds and 0Ints, no interceptions at all in all 4 games, and tying Joe Montana's record of 11 Tds and 0 Ints in a playoff run....and it was a fluke.  Just saying that is in and of itself a very odd and puzzling statement to me. No one gets that lucky. 

 

To disprove this, we really have to look and examine a few things. Starting with who Joe Flacco is, his history with the team, why we fell short 4 years in a row before finally getting over the hump, and why we've struggled since then.

 

     A. Who is Joe Flacco? Well, his weaknesses I've already thrown out there. Inconsistent mechanics, mainly in his footwork. Sometimes can give a play away with his eyes. His deep balls are anxiety filling, I literally have a heart attack every time he throws deep. His delivery isn't terrible, but not compact or tight enough to mesh well consistently on screens and short passes that require great ball placement and timing. At times he's overly aggressive. And there's a certain undeniable Homer Simpson quality (D'oh *facepalm*) to some of his throws. Now to be fair, all quarterbacks struggle with something, to different degrees they will at times struggle with some of the things put above here about Flacco. These are simply patterns that I've noticed, that when Joe struggles it's more often than not for these reasons.

 

But Joe has so much good that makes up for it. #1 is also closely tied to a weakness, which is his aggressiveness combined with a powerful arm matched with the ability to make any throw. This to me is what makes Joe great. He's also fairly mobile, great accuracy within the intermediate yardage, and shows up every week healthy and ready to play.

 

Some of you might not like this, but to me it's the truth. Joe's not a transcendent qb who can just make any team go. He's a good qb who in the right system with the right players can be great.

 

The most important things Joe needs are some things to help cover his weaknesses. First, he needs a running game, to the same effect that all qbs need a running game, but also to help pace out his short passing game. Second, he needs aggressive receivers. Joe is willing to throw into coverage. He wants to give his receivers a chance to make a play. He needs receivers willing to come back and attack the ball in the air. He also needs some speed to take advantage of his arm. Although his deep ball accuracy is all over the place, he hits often enough that you need to take advantage of his arm strength. Lastly, he needs time. And he really needs a good center and a good left tackle. He doesn't deal well this pressure from the blind side or up the middle, which honestly no qb deals well with. 

 

The system needs to be, well, idk the word for it. Not too simple otherwise it's easy on defenses, but not so complicated Joe has to take a long time presnap to think about where to go with the ball. He does need freedom to adjust plays, he's shown good judgment on audibles.

 

     B. So now we know who Joe Flacco is. Now, we know what he needs: Running game, aggressive receivers, speed on the outside, good offensive line, well balanced system. So now, a simple analysis of year to year. 2008, no speed on outisde. 2009, injuries plus still no speed. 2010, still no speed...a pattern of no speed finally ended in 2011. Offense started out up and down, then fizzled, than we got within a dropped pass the SuperBowl. This is one thing I also wanted to bring up...in the John Harbaugh era, the #3 receiver has often been the difference. It definitely was in 2010 and 2011. 2011 we finally had speed but not a true #3 receiver. In 2012, it all clicked. We had everything. Aggressive and fast receivers. Running game and good O-line (that really came together at the end of the year.) and the change at OC simplified things for Joe. This combination of all 5 things is what made his play explode from the first 4 years and 15 games into the game against NY and then the 4 playoff games of 2012. It's not a coincidence that all 5 things resulted in record setting performances and a super bowl victory. And from the help of our #3 receiver, Jacoby Jones.

 

But then in 2013 it came apart. Worst offense Joe ever had, having no aggressive receivers, no running game, and no offensive line. 2014 we got back close to the winning formula. We took the eventual Super Bowl champions the whole way to the brink of defeat. We really lost more because of our defense just being decimated.

 

This year? Well, offensive line sucks, and playcalling is suspect, and no running game, and no speed. Yet Joe's still not playing all that terrible considering, it could be much worse. And the defense has performed terrible two weeks in a row.

 

Now, did we have some lucky moments on that 2012 playoff run? Yes, every Super Bowl champion though has needed some luck to get there. It clearly, to me if you look at the facts, wasn't a fluke Flacco played as well as he did. He finally had everything he needed to succeed. Since then, we've only given him the proper surrounding environment one time, and it almost worked.

 

3.) Isn't a leader, shows no passion

 

Seriously? Go watch some wired episodes, and go back and watch Johnny U. Not every qb needs to be Tom Whiny Brady. Joe is who he is, and it makes him great. To me, he represents Baltimore, going to work, blue collar, no complaints, no excuses. Constantly trying to make more with less. I think people who make this claim just aren't grateful and just don't understand Joe.

 

That's it for now. If anyone wants to add to the list, feel free. I'm tired of typing. Sorry for how long it is!

Thats all well and good, but what has he done lately? 3 games in a row, had the opportunity to drive down and win it on the last posession, Carr did, so did Dalton, Joe didnt. The news piece clearly pointed out, he didnt see Marlon. That is the main difference between Flacco and Aaron Rodgers, is a quicker view of his options.

[usmccharles]

Its really hard to throw a deep ball when you dont have a deep threat...just saying.

[Tank 92]

Its really hard to throw a deep ball when you dont have a deep threat...just saying.

 

Valid point. And Joe never has had an "A" quality deep ball receiver.

[3-4ravdef509]

Thats all well and good, but what has he done lately? 3 games in a row, had the opportunity to drive down and win it on the last posession, Carr did, so did Dalton, Joe didnt. The news piece clearly pointed out, he didnt see Marlon. That is the main difference between Flacco and Aaron Rodgers, is a quicker view of his options.

That's why Joe Flacco is Joe Flacco, and not Aaron Rodgers. I'm not sure why you felt the need to point out the obvious there. Are you confused?

And compare the talent level the the offenses of the last four teams to beat us compared the ours. Then count how many leads our defense has blown.

[usmccharles]

The only thing that seems to matter for Joe is an offensive line. People always talk about weapons and this and that. He needs protection. If he gets it, he excels. If not, he and the offense struggles. Obviously, that includes run blocking, but protection in the passing game won us a Super Bowl and led to our best offensive season ever last year. Weapons smeppins. Give me a some blockers.

Pretty sure every qb need a good line.

[Gordo52]

Sucks the Ravens have yet to get him THE weapon

Sadly beginning to think that will just never happen.

[beanfigger]

Pretty sure every qb need a good line.

Sure, but we know that Flacco can make things happen without superstar skill position weapons if he has that line, and a lot of QBs may still need those superstars. Also, there are some QBs who, while they do drop in level of play to an extent without a good line, can actually perform a lot better than Flacco has when facing intense pressure and hits every play. Some QBs rely on receivers more than their line, and some, like Flacco, need the line and running game more than their receivers.