The Joe Flacco Thread (merged)

[GhostofGrbac]

What SSS and Boldin did in their primes is completely pointless to this. Flacco didn't get an SSS in his prime. It really doesn't matter what they've done in the earlier parts of their careers. As much as I may like him, the SSS playing for us right now isn't the receiver he was five or six years ago. And Boldin did slow down by the time he got to the Ravens. Yes, a young Edleman is better than two aging receivers well past their prime, especially when one has a major problem with dropping passes.

 

So we're comparing Edelman to what SSR and Boldin did as a Raven?

 

If so, I think you'll be really surprised at how similar the production between SSR and Edelman is. 

 

SSR - 125 catches, 1,735 yards, 9 td's

Edelman - 153 catches, 1,664 yards, 11 td's 

 

Even Boldin as a Raven put up very similar numbers to Edelman now (Boldin's 3 years here vs Edelman's past 3 seasons)

 

186 catches, 2,645 yards, 14 td's

258 catches, 2,720 yards, 17 td's

[frozen joe flacco fan]

I don't even know what your trying to say here... I hope it's not... If you won a superbowl your elite...

 

Yeah! That's what I'm trying to say. It is what it is. Once you're a Super Bowl Champion, you're always a Super Bowl Champion. 

Joe is one of the elite QBs in the league right now. What other QB do you know who could put his team in a position to win the game throwing to the likes of Aiken, Brown & Givens? The only ones I can think of would be Brady, Brees or Rodgers. Elite is elite. What part of it don't you understand? 

[frozen joe flacco fan]

So winning a Super Bowl makes a QB elite? So you thought Trent Dilfer was elite?

 

For a rookie, you're pretty sharp! Think about it!! How many Super Bowls have there been? How many QBs have been on the winning side? When you answer those two questions and learn what elite means, we can have a discussion. Yes, I think Trent Dilfer was definitely elite in one special season in 2000. Right now, at this time and moment, Joe Flacco is one of the elite eight. In the final analysis, it just depends on one's definition of the word ELITE. Yours and mine are apparently different. That's all! Have a great night, my friend!!! BTW, a non-elite QB who was 8-0 just lost to the 3-5 Houston Texans who are now tied for 1st place in their division (even though they don't have an elite QB either). Go figure!

[1/28/01]

Well Aiken was responsible in large part for 2 INTs. Some on Joe, one throw was pretty high IMO, but Aiken gift wrapped it for the Jaguars. The other INT Aiken ran the route wrong which was beyond obvious. Flacco expected him to cut it off and he continued deep.

Are you talking about the 2 horrific picks this past game? If so, the one to Aiken was overthrown and the other was an underthrow to Givens.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Are you talking about the 2 horrific picks this past game? If so, the one to Aiken was overthrown and the other was an underthrow to Givens.

And one still hit Aiken in the hands. Second one was completely Flacco's fault I'll agree with that. 

[1/28/01]

Here's some logic for you. There are only eight active QBs who have won one or more Super Bowls. For you statistical geniuses, that is 25% of the starting QBs in the Not For Long league. Call it luck, serendipity, fate or whatever you want but its an elite group of QBs. It includes in no certain order Joe Flacco, Russell Wilson, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Tom Brady and Ben Rothlisberger. All but the last two elite QBs lost yesterday. Anyone who wants to argue that any of the above listed QBs is not elite is free to do so but the truth is this is the Elite Eight. Ask Dan Marino or Jim Kelly whether they would trade any or all of their single season or career stats for a Super Bowl victory and which defines a career more. Records are made to be broken. Ask Brett Favre or Johnny U if he were alive. Joe Flacco is headed for his first 4,000 yard season. I'll bet it will mean very little to Joe but don't believe me 'cause I'm not logical like you experts. Ask Joe. Like Vince Lombardi said, "Statistics are for losers." He once had an elite QB named Bart Starr who would do whatever it took to win and always put the goals of his team ahead of his own goals. He reminds me a lot of Joe Flacco.

Hahahahahaha!

[1/28/01]

And one still hit Aiken in the hands. Second one was completely Flacco's fault I'll agree with that.

It was a 10 yard throw that hit Aiken above his head in his outstretched arms. On Flacco 80% and 20% Aiken.

[1/28/01]

Yeah! That's what I'm trying to say. It is what it is. Once you're a Super Bowl Champion, you're always a Super Bowl Champion.

Joe is one of the elite QBs in the league right now. What other QB do you know who could put his team in a position to win the game throwing to the likes of Aiken, Brown & Givens? The only ones I can think of would be Brady, Brees or Rodgers. Elite is elite. What part of it don't you understand?

You're a riot.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

It was a 10 yard throw that hit Aiken above his head in his outstretched arms. On Flacco 80% and 20% Aiken.

I just rewatched it. More like 60% Aiken 40% Flacco. Close up again, it still hit the man square in the hands. It was a bit high. But still. Hit him square in the hands. I've seen mediocre receivers make that catch(and while I do think Aiken is a #3... He's below average). It's not an easy catch, but it hit him in the hands. At least Aiken made an effort to keep it alive on the play afterwards. 

 

 

Second one was totally on Flacco. Not a bad decision, bad throw. For both.. No disagreements there. 

[1/28/01]

I just rewatched it. More like 60% Aiken 40% Flacco. Close up again, it still hit the man square in the hands. It was a bit high. But still. Hit him square in the hands. I've seen mediocre receivers make that catch(and while I do think Aiken is a #3... He's below average). It's not an easy catch, but it hit him in the hands. At least Aiken made an effort to keep it alive on the play afterwards.

Second one was totally on Flacco. Not a bad decision, bad throw. For both.. No disagreements there.

Let's go 70/30, ha.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Let's go 70/30, ha.

Eh. It's debatable. But we're in agreement it's not Flacco's fault alone. I can respect that. 

 

I think we can also agree that getting rid of Joe via trade like some are suggesting is a dumb idea. I know you want a rebuild, but that would put us in cap hell, and well. At least he's someone. The smart thing the Cowboys did was keep Romo around. Romo is just as good as Flacco, and when they gave him an elite oline, he started winning games. Keep Joe. The oline needs tweaking, not a reboot. 

 

Here's the thing about Joe: He's someone. He may not be elite, but he can get you there. He's good enough. If he was on the Bengals, he'd tear it up. He makes dumb mistakes(moreso than the elite QBs but lesser than say a Jay Cutler), but his supporting cast also does him no favors. He's clearly above average because there are games where he goes on a tear, and other games he just sucks.  Which is what really matters for a SB team. . For those wanting a total rebuild, not happening. Team is already young enough. We already have our franchise guy, who would last a collective 20 seconds on the open market. He's the AFC's version of Eli Manning. 

 

Sure, he's frustrating as hell. I get that. But I'm happy we have him. He's easily the best QB we've ever had(yes, not saying much), and is a good playoff QB. I've compared to Troy Aikman for a reason. Aikman was good, won SBs(and yes. I think Flacco is going to win another, and very likely two of them. This team is going through a transition period because of youth. When a few of these guys mature a little bit like Maxx, Davis, Jernigan, CJ, Jimmy when he rehabilitates, this team is going to be no fun to play) but was lackluster during the regular season DESPITE an amazing supporting cast. But he was phenomenal in big games, something that Flacco has proven to be time and time again. He was like me when I was a student. I was a lackluster kid who had a 3.3 GPA weighted. I was an average test taker. But when I had a big test, I showed up. 

 

I'll take all the inconsistencies in the world if it means I will do good enough to put myself in a position to win it all. It's much better than nothing. And you're a reasonable poster. I'm pretty sure you agree with me despite us having different opinions.

 

And if you're going to say that "Flacco is eating the cap". 

 

A high draft position in a good depth draft where there's a TON of safe picks is just what the doctor ordered. This team is not far away from being successful again. It can honestly be fixed with a good draft here, and a few decent acquisitions. Something this team can manage even with a large salary. 

 

 

Rant over. Sorry 1/28. This getting rid of Joe talk is getting on my nerves. My QB has flaws, fine. But getting rid of the man would be beyond foolish. 

[ravensdfan]

Are you talking about the 2 horrific picks this past game? If so, the one to Aiken was overthrown and the other was an underthrow to Givens.

I said the one was pretty high. Don't blame Aiken for not catching it, but for Heaven's sake don't bounce it up into the air. Twice. And on the other, my mistake, it was a 3rd down where Aiken ran the wrong route.

 

One to Givens was just ugly. Both bad throws but that one to Aiken I see WRs on other teams make all the time.

[GhostofGrbac]

For a rookie, you're pretty sharp! Think about it!! How many Super Bowls have there been? How many QBs have been on the winning side? When you answer those two questions and learn what elite means, we can have a discussion. Yes, I think Trent Dilfer was definitely elite in one special season in 2000. Right now, at this time and moment, Joe Flacco is one of the elite eight. In the final analysis, it just depends on one's definition of the word ELITE. Yours and mine are apparently different. That's all! Have a great night, my friend!!! BTW, a non-elite QB who was 8-0 just lost to the 3-5 Houston Texans who are now tied for 1st place in their division (even though they don't have an elite QB either). Go figure!

I appreciate the condescending tone of your post my friend.

There's clearly no point in having this discussion if you truly think Dilferer was elite.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Crazy thought.. And before I get backlash I'm saying this more tongue in cheek than anything else.

But after Flacco gambled on himself and "stuck it" to Bisciotti and the franchise by extension maybe the team is sticking it back to him in a restructuring year. (I know how unlikely it is esp. considering Flacco doesn't have to restructure)

With the team playing so bad, the FO can argue that Joe clearly can't carry a team to victory by himself and therefore can command such a large portion of the cap space. Since this year and 2013 are proving he needs a quality defense, run game, and at least decent weapons (like all QBs not named Rodgers and Brady) he'll have to restructure below what he likely would have if we had another winning year like 2014....

Which even though it sacrifices this year, it sets us up to be more competitive over the next 3-5 years in comparison to if we had a good year in 2015 and Flacco only restructured to soften his cap hit by a little.

Conspiracy theories aside, they'll end up converting a good chunk of Flaccos salaries into a signing bonus and lower his cap hit for next year to somewhere around $14 mill, then $16, $18, $18 and $22 mill. Which will be restructured again in the 3rd or 4th yr of that deal.

So he'll get 2 more real big pay days (next year and the next restructure) and then salaries from $14-18 mill from now until he retires or is cut in 5-6 years. (Keeping in mind the cap escalation I can certainly live with that).

[DomMcRaven]

Crazy thought.. And before I get backlash I'm saying this more tongue in cheek than anything else.

But after Flacco gambled on himself and "stuck it" to Bisciotti and the franchise by extension maybe the team is sticking it back to him in a restructuring year. (I know how unlikely it is esp. considering Flacco doesn't have to restructure)

With the team playing so bad, the FO can argue that Joe clearly can't carry a team to victory by himself and therefore can command such a large portion of the cap space. Since this year and 2013 are proving he needs a quality defense, run game, and at least decent weapons (like all QBs not named Rodgers and Brady) he'll have to restructure below what he likely would have if we had another winning year like 2014....

Which even though it sacrifices this year, it sets us up to be more competitive over the next 3-5 years in comparison to if we had a good year in 2015 and Flacco only restructured to soften his cap hit by a little.

Conspiracy theories aside, they'll end up converting a good chunk of Flaccos salaries into a signing bonus and lower his cap hit for next year to somewhere around $14 mill, then $16, $18, $18 and $22 mill. Which will be restructured again in the 3rd or 4th yr of that deal.

So he'll get 2 more real big pay days (next year and the next restructure) and then salaries from $14-18 mill from now until he retires or is cut in 5-6 years. (Keeping in mind the cap escalation I can certainly live with that).

That's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for them. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Yeah! That's what I'm trying to say. It is what it is. Once you're a Super Bowl Champion, you're always a Super Bowl Champion.

Joe is one of the elite QBs in the league right now. What other QB do you know who could put his team in a position to win the game throwing to the likes of Aiken, Brown & Givens? The only ones I can think of would be Brady, Brees or Rodgers. Elite is elite. What part of it don't you understand?

Winning a Super Bowl doesn't make you an elite QB; at least by the definition of elite that is implied when used in the QB ranking discussion.

Elite in that regard means a small group of the absolute best at the position that have a rare skill set that sets them apart from the vast majority of players at the position.

As you mentioned 8 active QBs have win a SB. Correctly you pointed out that's 25% of the starting QBs in the league. That's hardly an elite group. You keep using the phrase "Elite 8" but at least that refers to the final 8 out of a group of what... 66 now with the play in games? About 12%.

I don't think "Elite" has a percentage because at any given time there could be 6 elite QBs or only 1. Depends if we're talking elite in comparison to all QBs that ever played, or just in comparison to the current crop. I think the usual conversation includes the all-time list.

But back to your 25% elite definition. Would you consider everyone in a class that gets a 75% or above on a test to be Elite in that subject? Not a great example... But I think if 25 out of 100 can do anything - that's a wide invitation to the elite club.

And sorry, but Dilfer wasn't elite. Not even for one special season. The defense was elite, it just took an average QB not to screw things up to win that title.

And if you're going to make elite a finite thing, as in one can be elite this season and not the next... Then your argument for Flacco being elite is ruined. Because he certainly hasn't been among the top performing QBs this season.

You can't say Flacco is elite bc he's one of 8 actives to win a SB and then say Dilfer was elite for one season when he won it but not any other season. Bc then you're defining eliteness as only pertaining to the season in which the SB was won. In that case Flacco was only elite in 2012. And there's only 1 elite QB each season.

If so, Brady is the most elite QB in the Nfl right now bc he's been elite, what 4 times? Followed by Ben and Eli who are twice elite.

And then Brees Flacco, Rodgers, Peyton and Russell Wilson are all on the exact same level.

Which we all know is not the case. So stop mocking the "rookies" definition of elite when you clearly can't stick to one of your own. And the perimeters of eliteness that you have used are completely useless for the actual evaluation of QB play and quality which is what the whole "elite" argument is supposed to do.

And I love Flacco but it'd be tough to put him ahead of Brady, Rodgers, Rivers, Ben, Eli, Palmer, Cam or Dalton right now this season.

And there's a crop of guys like Ryan, Carr, Brees, Fitzpatrick, Tyrod, Mariota, and Bortles who are all having pretty good years as well. Flacco certainly hasn't had much help around him but there's no excusing a majority of the interceptions he's thrown or the 2 big fumbles.

He's definitely playing below that top group (pretty close to Cam except Cams protecting the ball) and near the top of that bottom group though everyone in that 2nd tier has had incredible games but like Flacco have been inconsistent or turn the ball over too much.

No doubt he needs better weapons, but he isn't playing anywhere close to an Elite QB this season... And has never done it consistently enough throughout his career which is why the debate continues.

On any given day he can outplay anyone including Brady and Rodgers. Likewise on any given day he can be outplayed by a McCown or a Carr.

How many QBs can you name that have thrown back to back INTs followed by a fumble?

How many QBs have been in position to win 2 games with time expiring in the 4th qtr only to force a bad throw into double coverage resulting in an INT to lose the game?

Or throw a game losing pick 6 bc they badly stared down their receiver immediately after taking the lead?

Granted in every situation he either battled back after the terrible mistakes to have a chance at winning or led incredible drives to get into a game winning position before the bad mistake that cost the game.... But thus is the maddening frustration that can be Joe Flacco as your QB.

I love him and don't want another QB. He CAN be a top QB in this league. And if given the proper surrounding I know he will be again. BUT you cannot deny the inconsistencies and just mind blowing stupid mistakes he will sometimes make.

Elite - by my definition - QBs don't still make these mistakes.

Edited November 17, 2015 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

That's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for them.

In all my years of broadcasting I have never seen anything like this. It looks like Perer Lefleur is blindfolding himself.

He will not be able to see very well, Cotton.

[Sami84]

What SSS and Boldin did in their primes is completely pointless to this. Flacco didn't get an SSS in his prime. It really doesn't matter what they've done in the earlier parts of their careers. As much as I may like him, the SSS playing for us right now isn't the receiver he was five or six years ago. And Boldin did slow down by the time he got to the Ravens. Yes, a young Edleman is better than two aging receivers well past their prime, especially when one has a major problem with dropping passes.

 

edleman isn't as good as SSS before his injury this year!!! 

 

Brady and SSS would be destroying teams.

 

What would edleman be doing in SF?

 

exactly..nothing.

 

and no..edleman was never better than boldin as a football player or sss. Maybe he's better than a 35 year old boldin now ( even thats debatable considering the crap boldin has throwing to him) and maybe he's better than SSS as of last weeks injury lol

 

but no..wake up..hes not in the same league.

[flynismo]

yes i think they would have.

 

got a problem with that? explain why having boldin or SSS would have stopped them ?

 

i'll tell you one thing..edleman would never have been able to do

 

what the heck..im arguing with such an idiotic statement. Boldin was such a good player..edleman has had two seasons of playing the dink role ala welker. Its brady that made him

 

boldin has been a stud even with shocking QB play pre warner at arizona. Edelman wouldnt even have made a catch with the crap arizona had pre warner.

Yes, I have a problem with that, because it is an absolutely MORONIC thing to say. Boldin when he was here was nowhere near what Edelman is now. Obviously, Boldin in his prime was better, but that was not the discussion, now was it? Boldin was a possession receiver for us, who never once cracked a measly 70 receptions, or even 950 yards for us in an entire season, and in the process, some of the biggest memories of his time here was dropping a go ahead TD in the playoffs against PIT. Compare that to Edelman. There is no comparison. So cut that crap out.

 

I'll answer your question with a question. If Brady could not win a SB with RANDY MOSS and Welker in their primes, what in the world makes you think having SSS would get Brady 4 super bowls in a row? That's just stupid. Has it ever occured to you that the only reason SSS is here is because Carolina thought he was washed up, and that he now looks better than he EVER has because he is playing with Flacco, and not Newton?

 

Before you and the rest of the crew try to accuse me of blind homerism (and I am indeed a blind homer. I also happen to flush more intelligence down the toilet every morning than the majority of you mouthbreathing cretins), it is pretty well known from my rantings around here that I am a huge Boldin fan, and to the best of my knowledge, was the first person on the boards here to propose the idea that we trade for Boldin. Of course, the "realists" retorted that was crazy and would never happen, but I digress...

Edited November 17, 2015 by flynismo

[Sami84]

Yes, I have a problem with that, because it is an absolutely MORONIC thing to say. Boldin when he was here was nowhere near what Edelman is now. Obviously, Boldin in his prime was better, but that was not the discussion, now was it?

 

I'll answer your question with a question. If Brady could not win a SB with RANDY MOSS and Welker in their primes, what in the world makes you think having SSS would get Brady 4 super bowls in a row? That's just stupid.

 

 

Edelman is a product of a system. Use the eye test. No edleman is not better than 2010-2014 boldin. And he's never been better than SSS.

 

he is a product of brady. Hugely overrated. If boldin had brady over the last 5 years his numbers would be off the charts.

[Sami84]

Yes, I have a problem with that, because it is an absolutely MORONIC thing to say. Boldin when he was here was nowhere near what Edelman is now. Obviously, Boldin in his prime was better, but that was not the discussion, now was it?

 

I'll answer your question with a question. If Brady could not win a SB with RANDY MOSS and Welker in their primes, what in the world makes you think having SSS would get Brady 4 super bowls in a row? That's just stupid.

 1 game

 

btw..anyone who watched football and can define talent will tell you that derrick mason >>>>>> wes welker

[Sami84]

actually boldins 2013 and 2014 seasons > anything edleman has ever done.  Its a joke comparing SSS and Boldin to an average 29 year old who's only cracked 1000 yards once in his career.

 

people on this board are delusional. RSF has more honesty.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Sami84

[flynismo]

It was a 10 yard throw that hit Aiken above his head in his outstretched arms. On Flacco 80% and 20% Aiken.

 

I understand the reasoning but really, it's pointless trying to share responsibility for picks. Either it was Flacco's fault, or it was Aikens. Flacco threw the pass, the pass could have been thrown a good bit better, so, it's on Flacco. To me, both those picks were on Flacco. What has me fuming is the fumble, which I lay completely on the OL. Flacco did exactly what he was supposed to do on the play. Nobody else did, unfortunately.

[flynismo]

 1 game

 

btw..anyone who watched football and can define talent will tell you that derrick mason >>>>>> wes welker

Mason was a better pure football player, absolutely. Arguably the best route runner in the NFL, reliable hands. But what's your point? That Mason was a little better than NE's slot WR? We all (hopefully) know that. Mason also played in a completely different offense, where his role in the offense was similar to Welker's -- as a possession receiver to move the chains.

[flynismo]

actually boldins 2013 and 2014 seasons > anything edleman has ever done.  Its a joke comparing SSS and Boldin to an average 29 year old who's only cracked 1000 yards once in his career.

 

people on this board are delusional. RSF has more honesty.

 

 

No friend, you are the delusional one. Edelman LAST year (92 rec, 974 yards, 4 TD) was better than anything Boldin did for us in his time here, and this season, Edelman has been on fire.

 

If you are going to call people "delusional", at least keep the conversation consistent. We are talking about Boldin WHEN HE PLAYED FOR US, not Boldin throughout his career.

[Sami84]

No friend, you are the delusional one. Edelman LAST year (92 rec, 974 yards, 4 TD) was better than anything Boldin did for us in his time here, and this season, Edelman has been on fire.

 

If you are going to call people "delusional", at least keep the conversation consistent. We are talking about Boldin WHEN HE PLAYED FOR US, not Boldin throughout his career.

 

did for US

 

I don't think edleman would have touched 500 yards playing with flacco.

Boldin at SF last two seasons > anything edlemans done.

 

argue that. argue their careers lol its not even close.its a joke!

[Sami84]

SSR was currently having a better year than Edelman until his injury too.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

No friend, you are the delusional one. Edelman LAST year (92 rec, 974 yards, 4 TD) was better than anything Boldin did for us in his time here, and this season, Edelman has been on fire.

 

If you are going to call people "delusional", at least keep the conversation consistent. We are talking about Boldin WHEN HE PLAYED FOR US, not Boldin throughout his career.

Let it go my man. Sami is entitled to his opinion and he's stubborn. Nothing wrong with it but you cannot convince him otherwise. It's fine. He'll probably grow out of it. 

 

I don't agree with either of you. Boldin was the better talent but was misused here in his time period. And a big reason why he was so successful in SF that first year was because Kaep locks onto receivers like a missile lock system. 

 

Edelman is actually a pretty good WR.  Got good hands, he's quick, good route runner. He would flourish on other teams. That's the truth. If you can do those things, you're a good receiver. He's more effective than Boldin was because Cam didn't know how to use the man. It's different then being better in my eyes. 

 

And let him trash us. It's fine. We honestly don't take it personally right?  

[flynismo]

Elite - by my definition - QBs don't still make these mistakes.

 

Nice to see a well thought out response around here, instead of the usual drivel.

 

I'm only responding to this sentence, because this seems to be the common thought about Flacco -- that he makes an unacceptable number of mistakes each game.

 

Can we all agree that say, Rodgers and Brees are elite? They are future HOF players, so that should say enough about that...

 

Now, GB happens to be my "NFC team", and I just truly enjoy Brees, so I watch each of them play about 5 - 6 times per year.

 

I can promise you, they make just as many mistakes every single week. HOWEVER, they also have the system and supporting cast to consistently make up for those mistakes, so their mistakes are not as glaring as Flacco's is.

 

The Flacco critics have it all wrong. Flacco isn't some mistake-prone buffoon (at least not abnormally so). What they SHOULD be knocking Flacco for is not making enough big plays to make up for those mistakes -- but they know exactly why it doesn't happen, so they'd rather make the easy argument.

[flynismo]

did for US

 

I don't think edleman would have touched 500 yards playing with flacco.

Boldin at SF last two seasons > anything edlemans done.

 

argue that. argue their careers lol its not even close.its a joke!

 

That much is obvious. Why is it that SSS struggles to put up 500 yards playing with Newton, but puts up 500 yards in a month playing for us? Perhaps because Flacco is kinda good? So then, what makes you think Edelman wouldn't be productive here? Any reason other than you simply don't think things through?

 

And it's great that Boldin had a far better career. I even said that repeatedly. No one is disputing that other than you