The Joe Flacco Thread (merged)

[1/28/01]

It would be amazing if every receiver got hit exactly in stride on deep streak routes, but that is unrealistic in the NFL. If you think other teams have receivers not adjusting or slowing up on most deep routes, that's incorrect. Manning is really the only one who hits deeps routes in perfect stride more often than not, and he throws deep very sparingly nowadays according to the numbers. Andrew Luck might be second best at this. Even Aaron Rodgers needs his receivers to adjust on deep balls, and Jordy is perhaps one of the best at that (that'll be the biggest thing that is missed from him this year).

Yeah, I didn't say any of that. And of course all QBs deal with receivers adjusting or not adjusting. If Flacco progresses his deep ball to the level where most Ravens fans think it is currently, he'll be pretty nasty! His shorter throws are pretty legit. His sideline ball is the best in the league. Hone in the deep ball and holy poop, watch out!

[beanfigger]

Yeah, I didn't say any of that. And of course all QBs deal with receivers adjusting or not adjusting. If Flacco progresses his deep ball to the level where most Ravens fans think it is currently, he'll be pretty nasty! His shorter throws are pretty legit. His sideline ball is the best in the league. Hone in the deep ball and holy poop, watch out!

 

You didn't say all that, but you twice in a row mentioned that he doesn't hit his receivers in stride as though it was something he ought to be doing all the time.

 

I think the problem is that I somewhat agree with you, but I disagree with how you say it. You talk as though Flacco having a bottom half deep ball is a fact because of one stat from one website, but it is an opinion, not a fact. You also say those with opposing views are suffering from a common misconception, but it is also an opinion, not a misconception. Some probably consider other factors when coming up with their idea of what a good deep ball is. Some may consider that we run very little full spread from the shotgun with complex route combinations, we run very few double moves in comparison to many teams, Flacco is rarely standing still throwing a timing pattern deep but instead commonly throws deep late in the play while on the move, etc.

 

I, like you, would like to see his deep ball percentage improve, but I think his deep ball has been better than what that one stat suggests. I do appreciate that you are mostly respectful to others' views, but every time I see you discuss them as being misguided or that the deep ball needs to get to the level that "most fans believe it is", it rubs me the wrong way.

Edited August 27, 2015 by beanfigger

[1/28/01]

You didn't say all that, but you twice in a row mentioned that he doesn't hit his receivers in stride as though it was something he ought to be doing all the time.

I think the problem is that I somewhat agree with you, but I disagree with how you say it. You talk as though Flacco having a bottom half deep ball is a fact because of one stat from one website, but it is an opinion, not a fact. You also say those with opposing views are suffering from a common misconception, but it is also an opinion, not a misconception. Some probably consider other factors when coming up with their idea of what a good deep ball is. Some may consider that we run very little full spread from the shotgun with complex route combinations, we run very few double moves in comparison to many teams, Flacco is rarely standing still throwing a timing pattern deep but instead commonly throws deep late in the play while on the move, etc.

I, like you, would like to see his deep ball percentage improve, but I think his deep ball has been better than what that one stat suggests. I do appreciate that you are mostly respectful to others' views, but every time I see you discuss them as being misguided or that the deep ball needs to get to the level that "most fans believe it is", it rubs me the wrong way.

It's not an opinion that he (outside last year) is in the bottom half of completion percentage for deep balls. And most fans here think he has a great deep ball and me saying that shouldn't rub you the wrong way, but you obviously have the right to feel however you'd like.

[beanfigger]

It's not an opinion that he (outside last year) is in the bottom half of completion percentage for deep balls. And most fans here think he has a great deep ball and me saying that shouldn't rub you the wrong way, but you obviously have the right to feel however you'd like.

 

It isn't that you say he doesn't, it's that you act like your opinion is a fact because of one stat and the others' opinions are misguided, again because of the one stat. I am all for a difference of opinion, and my opinion is closer to yours than the extremes on the other side. I do think that one stat doesn't paint the entire picture of how good his deep ball is, so calling someone else who disagrees misguided or flat out wrong is what bothers me. His deep ball is good and getting better. It isn't the best in the league, and there are many who have a legitimate argument to claim their's is better, but just because one stat is worse doesn't mean we can just dismiss any differing opinion.

[1/28/01]

It isn't that you say he doesn't, it's that you act like your opinion is a fact because of one stat and the others' opinions are misguided, again because of the one stat. I am all for a difference of opinion, and my opinion is closer to yours than the extremes on the other side. I do think that one stat doesn't paint the entire picture of how good his deep ball is, so calling someone else who disagrees misguided or flat out wrong is what bothers me. His deep ball is good and getting better. It isn't the best in the league, and there are many who have a legitimate argument to claim their's is better, but just because one stat is worse doesn't mean we can just dismiss any differing opinion.

When did I call anyone misguided or flat out wrong? Sheesh...

[beanfigger]

When did I call anyone misguided or flat out wrong? Sheesh...

Misconception is the word you used. Not misguided. It doesn't matter. Cheers.

[1/28/01]

Misconception is the word you used. Not misguided. It doesn't matter. Cheers.

Correct, doesn't matter. Cheers!

Edited August 27, 2015 by 1/28/01

[callahan09]

This is a strange statement because the offense is still based on Kubiak's run-first offense.  His comments then seem to insinuate that Trestman's version will also be a run-first.  They had their best season ins 2014 with Kubiak's run-first offense. Why would Joe say he's going to be throwing first?

He's talking about when he is keeping the ball, not the playcalling and gameplanning becoming pass-first.  He's saying that he's still going to be focused on finding a receiver to unload the ball to, rather than take off with his legs, on the plays where he's keeping the ball for himself.  In other words, some QBs seem to give up on the pass and just run with it really quickly.  Joe is saying he's not going to do that.

[ravensdan]

He's talking about when he is keeping the ball, not the playcalling and gameplanning becoming pass-first. He's saying that he's still going to be focused on finding a receiver to unload the ball to, rather than take off with his legs, on the plays where he's keeping the ball for himself. In other words, some QBs seem to give up on the pass and just run with it really quickly. Joe is saying he's not going to do that.

That's not what it says. But the post you are correcting is also wrong

[Tru11]

priority should be picking up the first down.

 

dont really care if its by pass or run.

 

just do whatever it takes to get it.

[beanfigger]

priority should be picking up the first down.

dont really care if its by pass or run.

just do whatever it takes to get it.

Yes, and sometimes he has missed the opportunity to run for. Shoot, he is clearly looking for the big play first, sometimes to our detriment, and sometimes he misses a short pass for a first down by doing so. He has improved in this over the years, but it still pops up every now and then. Sure sometimes it results in a huge play or penalty and all looks great, but this has been one thing that has actually bugged me, a huge Flacco game, and I'm glad to hear him actually mention that he is looking to incorporate more when it will help us. That drive against Miami that went length of the field and got us back in that game is what I want to see more of. The fact that we spent most of the year at the top of the league in plays/drive is a huge difference from what we've had before. Very encouraging.

[Tru11]

Yes, and sometimes he has missed the opportunity to run for. Shoot, he is clearly looking for the big play first, sometimes to our detriment, and sometimes he misses a short pass for a first down by doing so. He has improved in this over the years, but it still pops up every now and then. Sure sometimes it results in a huge play or penalty and all looks great, but this has been one thing that has actually bugged me, a huge Flacco game, and I'm glad to hear him actually mention that he is looking to incorporate more when it will help us. That drive against Miami that went length of the field and got us back in that game is what I want to see more of. The fact that we spent most of the year at the top of the league in plays/drive is a huge difference from what we've had before. Very encouraging.

 

he is getting much and much better with his decision making every season that passes so i wont be to worried.

 

im glad he figured out that it sometimes is better to take the few yards and an easy first down rather then bombing it downfield and hoping for the best lol.

 

we just have to hope the o-line will give him enough time.

all these injuries dont look promising at the moment.

[beanfigger]

he is getting much and much better with his decision making every season that passes so i wont be to worried.

im glad he figured out that it sometimes is better to take the few yards and an easy first down rather then bombing it downfield and hoping for the best lol.

we just have to hope the o-line will give him enough time.

all these injuries dont look promising at the moment.

Agreed on all points. I'm not too worried. It was just nice to hear him say something like this. He usually likes to talk about how he wants the big plays first, but I rarely hear him mention the other options, even though he has been utilizing the other options more and more each year. This gives some credence to the sentiment earlier this offseason that he finally feels mature.

[RavensFanMania]

Hopefully he doesn't stray from

This too much. His looking down field to make a big play is what makes him a great player. It's why QBs who look to run first will never be as good. To quote the great GregCossell there's no stat for throws not attempted.

That's a great quote and I've heard it before.  Thanks for posting. 

 

Go Ravens!

[3-4ravdef509]

I will be the first among many to say Joe can and needs to play better. Even with last year being his best statistically, I thought he needed to make some changes and improvements. This year hasn't shown much improvement. He throws off his back foot a lot, is a little jumpy, at times inaccurate and irresponsible with the ball on some of his throws. 

 

Also, as 01/28/2001 would like to point out, his deep ball isn't as good as we can sometimes make it out to be. 10-25 yards is Joe's biggest strength.

 

So I wanted that all out on the table as a big neon disclaimer before I get to my point.

 

Many here are guilty of making terrible, and I mean absolutely terrible judgments about the play and the PAY of our quarterback. Some so terrible they make me question their football IQ. And I know many of you have tried calling them on these things when they happen, but I felt the need to make a post trying to make a more noticed attempt to correct these misconceptions. 

 

The mods might also decide to close this as I'm rehashing a lot of what's already been said before and this might not be a thread they wish to keep open as it's about Joe and these threads tend to get ridiculous. And the ridiculousness comes from both sides, homers and haters. Apologists and mudslingers.

 

Anyways, here's some of the most common misconceptions I wish to clear up.

 

1.) Joe is overpaid.

 

This is by far the most annoying thing. My reaction every time i read this is to   and 

So let's just say this one is easy to prove incorrect. As first of all, the total value and guaranteed $s of the contract are on par with a Super Bowl winning quarterback. In fact, with some of the contracts that have since been signed, Joe is on the cusp of looking underpaid during the times where he's playing well.

 

Also, the most important thing to me is Cap Space, which has always been reasonable. Next year they will have to restructure. It's in Joe's best interest, and the front office's. It's almost a foregone conclusion it will get done and set his cap somewhere between 19-22 AACH (Average Annual Cap Hit.) Which is again, what you pay for a Super Bowl winning quarterback. This leads me into my next point, but before that, a footnote that our cap situation is obviously very bad due to paying players like Pitta, Rice, Ngata, Suggs, etc with dead money and/or their big contracts and they are currently injured/and or both.

 

2.) Joe's 2012 Super Bowl run was a fluke.

 

Now this isn't as stupid and easy to disprove as the first one. But, to me it's still laugh worthy to say it was a fluke. First, let's spell it out - Joe Flacco led the Ravens and won 4 playoff games including the Super Bowl and was named the MVP of the Super Bowl, with a 100+ quarterback rating in each game, a come from behind victory in the Divisional Round, 3 straight games of 3Tds and 0Ints, no interceptions at all in all 4 games, and tying Joe Montana's record of 11 Tds and 0 Ints in a playoff run....and it was a fluke.  Just saying that is in and of itself a very odd and puzzling statement to me. No one gets that lucky. 

 

To disprove this, we really have to look and examine a few things. Starting with who Joe Flacco is, his history with the team, why we fell short 4 years in a row before finally getting over the hump, and why we've struggled since then.

 

     A. Who is Joe Flacco? Well, his weaknesses I've already thrown out there. Inconsistent mechanics, mainly in his footwork. Sometimes can give a play away with his eyes. His deep balls are anxiety filling, I literally have a heart attack every time he throws deep. His delivery isn't terrible, but not compact or tight enough to mesh well consistently on screens and short passes that require great ball placement and timing. At times he's overly aggressive. And there's a certain undeniable Homer Simpson quality (D'oh *facepalm*) to some of his throws. Now to be fair, all quarterbacks struggle with something, to different degrees they will at times struggle with some of the things put above here about Flacco. These are simply patterns that I've noticed, that when Joe struggles it's more often than not for these reasons.

 

But Joe has so much good that makes up for it. #1 is also closely tied to a weakness, which is his aggressiveness combined with a powerful arm matched with the ability to make any throw. This to me is what makes Joe great. He's also fairly mobile, great accuracy within the intermediate yardage, and shows up every week healthy and ready to play.

 

Some of you might not like this, but to me it's the truth. Joe's not a transcendent qb who can just make any team go. He's a good qb who in the right system with the right players can be great.

 

The most important things Joe needs are some things to help cover his weaknesses. First, he needs a running game, to the same effect that all qbs need a running game, but also to help pace out his short passing game. Second, he needs aggressive receivers. Joe is willing to throw into coverage. He wants to give his receivers a chance to make a play. He needs receivers willing to come back and attack the ball in the air. He also needs some speed to take advantage of his arm. Although his deep ball accuracy is all over the place, he hits often enough that you need to take advantage of his arm strength. Lastly, he needs time. And he really needs a good center and a good left tackle. He doesn't deal well this pressure from the blind side or up the middle, which honestly no qb deals well with. 

 

The system needs to be, well, idk the word for it. Not too simple otherwise it's easy on defenses, but not so complicated Joe has to take a long time presnap to think about where to go with the ball. He does need freedom to adjust plays, he's shown good judgment on audibles.

 

     B. So now we know who Joe Flacco is. Now, we know what he needs: Running game, aggressive receivers, speed on the outside, good offensive line, well balanced system. So now, a simple analysis of year to year. 2008, no speed on outisde. 2009, injuries plus still no speed. 2010, still no speed...a pattern of no speed finally ended in 2011. Offense started out up and down, then fizzled, than we got within a dropped pass the SuperBowl. This is one thing I also wanted to bring up...in the John Harbaugh era, the #3 receiver has often been the difference. It definitely was in 2010 and 2011. 2011 we finally had speed but not a true #3 receiver. In 2012, it all clicked. We had everything. Aggressive and fast receivers. Running game and good O-line (that really came together at the end of the year.) and the change at OC simplified things for Joe. This combination of all 5 things is what made his play explode from the first 4 years and 15 games into the game against NY and then the 4 playoff games of 2012. It's not a coincidence that all 5 things resulted in record setting performances and a super bowl victory. And from the help of our #3 receiver, Jacoby Jones.

 

But then in 2013 it came apart. Worst offense Joe ever had, having no aggressive receivers, no running game, and no offensive line. 2014 we got back close to the winning formula. We took the eventual Super Bowl champions the whole way to the brink of defeat. We really lost more because of our defense just being decimated.

 

This year? Well, offensive line sucks, and playcalling is suspect, and no running game, and no speed. Yet Joe's still not playing all that terrible considering, it could be much worse. And the defense has performed terrible two weeks in a row.

 

Now, did we have some lucky moments on that 2012 playoff run? Yes, every Super Bowl champion though has needed some luck to get there. It clearly, to me if you look at the facts, wasn't a fluke Flacco played as well as he did. He finally had everything he needed to succeed. Since then, we've only given him the proper surrounding environment one time, and it almost worked.

 

3.) Isn't a leader, shows no passion

 

Seriously? Go watch some wired episodes, and go back and watch Johnny U. Not every qb needs to be Tom Whiny Brady. Joe is who he is, and it makes him great. To me, he represents Baltimore, going to work, blue collar, no complaints, no excuses. Constantly trying to make more with less. I think people who make this claim just aren't grateful and just don't understand Joe.

 

That's it for now. If anyone wants to add to the list, feel free. I'm tired of typing. Sorry for how long it is!

[ratedr]

Most people here don't believe this things...this will be like moths to a flame for those who do though, just warning ya.

[PurpleCity5]

Imagine if Joe had a guy like Julio his whole career.... 

[flynismo]

You can't talk about how he carries the team on his back in the postseason, then also say he needs the right players and system around him (incidentally which he has neither of).
Seems the latest trend is also to claim his deep ball is overrated... which would mean the entire world other than a handful of people are wrong about that....possible, but pretty darn unlikely.

Really, Joe is like every other great QB out there....he has his weaknesses, but the difference for him is, he does not have the supporting cast around him to save his bacon during the rough weeks.

[ratedr]

You can't talk about how he carries the team on his back in the postseason, then also say he needs the right players and system around him (incidentally which he has neither of).

Seems the latest trend is also to claim his deep ball is overrated... which would mean the entire world other than a handful of people are wrong about that....possible, but pretty darn unlikely

A lot of people claim that he won the Super Bowl because of defense...an opinion can be popular but still wrong.

 

His deep ball isn't really accurate, but it sure is beautiful to look at. I think people get caught in that. The deep ball master rep was solidified during the playoff run (where it was actually VERY effective) and likely won't ever go away,

[BSHU_Miami]

You can't talk about how he carries the team on his back in the postseason, then also say he needs the right players and system around him (incidentally which he has neither of).

Seems the latest trend is also to claim his deep ball is overrated... which would mean the entire world other than a handful of people are wrong about that....possible, but pretty darn unlikely

yeah the deep ball will look bad throwing to kamar Aiken and others who aren't deep threats.

[ravensdfan]

You can't talk about how he carries the team on his back in the postseason, then also say he needs the right players and system around him (incidentally which he has neither of).

Seems the latest trend is also to claim his deep ball is overrated... which would mean the entire world other than a handful of people are wrong about that....possible, but pretty darn unlikely.

Really, Joe is like every other great QB out there....he has his weaknesses, but the difference for him is, he does not have the supporting cast around him to save his bacon during the rough weeks.

Nailed it.

[1/28/01]

He just needs to stop the deep ball throws and fades into the EZ. He cant throw either!

His sideline, back shoulder and short 15-20 yard passes are money!

[flynismo]

A lot of people claim that he won the Super Bowl because of defense...an opinion can be popular but still wrong.

His deep ball isn't really accurate, but it sure is beautiful to look at. I think people get caught in that. The deep ball master rep was solidified during the playoff run (where it was actually VERY effective) and likely won't ever go away,

I get what you are saying, but I have been talking about his deep ball since his rookie year...look at how amazingly accurate those bombs were to Clayton, Boldin and occasionally Mason....three guys who ran good routes. Then when guys like Torrey show up, who is notoriously bad at tracking passes, and a poor route runner overall -- not a coincidence that his bombs suddenly appear to be wildly inconsistent

[arnie_uk]

My biggest issue is he has to be virtually perfect for us to win. That's the front offices fault.

My next biggest issue, is everyone knows flacco can be virtually perfect, but never quite reaches it until December January.

It's infuriating at times, but hes he the least of our worries.

Edited September 28, 2015 by arnie_uk

[ratedr]

I get what you are saying, but I have been talking about his deep ball since his rookie year...look at how amazingly accurate those bombs were to Clayton, Boldin and occasionally Mason....three guys who ran good routes. Then when guys like Torrey show up, who is notoriously bad at tracking passes, and a poor route runner overall -- not a coincidence that his bombs suddenly appear to be wildly inconsistent

Strangely enough over the last few years (well, maybe not last year) his best deep ball connection seemed to be with Jacoby, not Torrey.

[ratedr]

My biggest issue is he has to be virtually perfect for us to win. That's the front offices fault.

My next biggest issue, is everyone knows flacco can be virtually perfect, but never quite reaches it until December January.

It's infuriating at times, but hes he the least of our worries.

It's frustrating watching other WRs catch passes that I know would be picked here had Joe thrown them. The game last night had amazing plays from both sides on full display.

[arnie_uk]

It's frustrating watching other WRs catch passes that I know would be picked here had Joe thrown them. The game last night had amazing plays from both sides on full display.

yep, every pass he throws has to be on the money or it won't be converted..no other qb has to deal with that. But again, joe flacco can deal with it, he just isn't quite yet, but as the season goes on, he likely will

[RavensFanMania]

A lot of people claim that he won the Super Bowl because of defense...an opinion can be popular but still wrong.

 

His deep ball isn't really accurate, but it sure is beautiful to look at. I think people get caught in that. The deep ball master rep was solidified during the playoff run (where it was actually VERY effective) and likely won't ever go away,

Our defense was 17th in the league last year.  I laugh at people when they say this.

[flynismo]

I guess to summarize, there is a recipe to beat any QB. In Joe's instance, it is to bring four and five man rushes in a primarily zone scheme. The zone scheme is a critical piece of that puzzle, because when he is under pressure he can be baited into bad decisions... he will typically eat you alive when playing man, because that simplifies the decision making process and he is just too good to stop *when he knows where to go with the ball*

In the past, we had the perfect personnel to mask that, but a lunatic for an OC. Now, I think Trestman is the perfect fit to mask that, but, the OL and lack of weapons is causing us problems

[BSHU_Miami]

My god did anyone see those catches by sanders and Thomas over slay. That's the type of throws joe likes, those jump balls. But we don't have the people to do it.