Flacco's greatness, a sad truth

[Gordo52]

I'd put Eli in the hall... Stats shouldn't be the say all, IMO.

Especially if you've got rings

Edited August 5, 2015 by Gordo52

[usmccharles]

Joe will never get in with regular season stats, although if he keeps his INTs down that will really help his case.  With trestman coming in and assuming he stays here for a bit (rare i know), i wouldnt be shocked if Joe puts up 4300 ish with 30td-10ints for a coupe seasons, very respectable.  But lets look at where he stands all time on playoff wins

 

Brady           21

montana      16

bradshaw     14

elway           14

favre            13                               Green= Active

aikman         11

staubach      11

peyton          11

Ben              10

Joe               10

 

Now Joe is already has the most road wins by a qb in nfl history, not bad.  Looking at this list, assuming Joe plays 8 more years, it wouldnt be out of the question to say he ends up with 8-10 playoff wins putting him, lets call it 19 total (i think this is very doable).  That puts him above all the retired players, leaving Ben and Peyton left.  I dont think peyton has much left so im sure Joe will end with more playoff wins.  But as for Ben, being in the same division really makes this competition even harder, sad to say, steelers arent done winning playoff games.  But i think for Joe to end up with 17-21 play off wins is doable, and very very impressive for a "overrated" qb.

 

Notable mentions climbing fast

Wilson       6

Brees        6

Rodgers   6     This number i think will tripple by the time hes done

Edited August 5, 2015 by usmccharles

[Tank 92]

They would have to be assuming a continued steady increase in Flacco's stats over the next 2-3 years and then sustaining that peak for another 3+ years... Which isn't entirely unreasonable. He would then be putting up the type of stats Rivers, Romo, Ryan, etc... Put up but Flacco would then have the edge on wins and especially post season wins.

I think Flaccos got a lot of work to do to guarantee the Hall, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned that bodes well for him is that the voters do tend to favor historical achievements.

And Flaccos got his Super Bowl playoff run that ranks all time all time. I think he's already won the most road playoff games of any QB with plenty of time to pad a comfortable lead. Wilson's probably going to break them, but he's got some all time win numbers overall and in the playoffs. And he could have the best road playoff win percentage when all is said and done (let's hope we see more home games going forward).

So where he takes a knock for not having the stats he does have a few things going for him that voters tend to like... They've put some arguably undeserving players in the Hall because they accomplished some historical achievement.

Plus, I think naturally the trend of adding pieces to compliment Joe and build around him will continue which will help him add the necessary stats to be among the Hall of Fame considered QBs from this era - where his wins, Super Bowl(s) and historical achievements will hopefully put him over the top.

Looks like Luck and Wilson aren't going to make it easy on him though.

Any other era and this would be a lot easier of a conversation. But playing at the same time as Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning, Luck, Wilson, and to a lesser extent Roethlisberger and Eli (who have the edge on stats and SB's currently) and Romo, Rivers, and Ryan (stats without the winning) it's just crazy.

They can't all get in.

And I don't think he'll be evaluated against the guys already in - he'll be evaluated against the guys in his era.

And right now id say there are 6 QBs who definitely have a better case for the Hall than Flacco.

 

 

This I see as a fair assessment of Joe's chances. While I think any reasonable person could not say that he is a shoe in at this point, you would also have to say that he has achievements that set him apart from the QBs that some want to compare him to.  And as you point out, adding the missing pieces around him will only continue to help his chances. 

[JohnnyBoy8102]

I know they aren't a huge deal but I have always wished Joe could be credited with at least 1 pro bowl. I know he declined an invite as an alternate but it would be nice. 

[Gordo52]

I know they aren't a huge deal but I have always wished Joe could be credited with at least 1 pro bowl. I know he declined an invite as an alternate but it would be nice.

All Pro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pro bowl

[jimmypowder]

Big Ben is in . Flacco is right now 60 percent in favor of getting in the Hall of Fame .

Edited August 5, 2015 by jimmypowder

[ravensdan]

There's a lot of guys being mentioned here tgAt should not be in. Flacco, Ben, Eli, Rivers. No no no. Ben is the closest. But none of these guys have been unanimously even top 5 at their position. That's part of it. Peyton, Brady, Rodgers probably Brees. It's going to take a significant increase in play level and perception for these other guys to get in there. Joe and Ben could help each other if they could get into some legendary QB duels but they never seem to both play great in the same game for whatever reason.

[1/28/01]

There's a lot of guys being mentioned here tgAt should not be in. Flacco, Ben, Eli, Rivers. No no no. Ben is the closest. But none of these guys have been unanimously even top 5 at their position. That's part of it. Peyton, Brady, Rodgers probably Brees. It's going to take a significant increase in play level and perception for these other guys to get in there. Joe and Ben could help each other if they could get into some legendary QB duels but they never seem to both play great in the same game for whatever reason.

Ding ding ding. We have a winning post!

[redrum52]

There's a lot of guys being mentioned here tgAt should not be in. Flacco, Ben, Eli, Rivers. No no no. Ben is the closest. But none of these guys have been unanimously even top 5 at their position. That's part of it. Peyton, Brady, Rodgers probably Brees. It's going to take a significant increase in play level and perception for these other guys to get in there. Joe and Ben could help each other if they could get into some legendary QB duels but they never seem to both play great in the same game for whatever reason.

You're right... especially about the never playing good at the same time thing as well, which I had honestly, never noticed. Whenever it starts out even, it's usually the one who makes the first mistake, keeps on making them throughout, or just never recovers.

The best game from both, at the same time, probably was the 11 season, week 9 game.

Edited August 6, 2015 by redrum52

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

There's a lot of guys being mentioned here tgAt should not be in. Flacco, Ben, Eli, Rivers. No no no. Ben is the closest. But none of these guys have been unanimously even top 5 at their position. That's part of it. Peyton, Brady, Rodgers probably Brees. It's going to take a significant increase in play level and perception for these other guys to get in there. Joe and Ben could help each other if they could get into some legendary QB duels but they never seem to both play great in the same game for whatever reason.

Eli and Ben are absolutely worth mentioning in the Hall of Fame conversation and might even get in if they retired today.

There's only one.... ONE... Quarterback with 2 or more Super Bowl wins that ISNT in the Hall of Fame and that's Jim Plunkett.

And Plunkett had like 160 TDs to almost 200 INT's, only 25,000 career passing yards over a 12 or so year career with a career QB rating of 68.

Good reason to keep him out.

I agree it's going to be tough for QBs from this era to get in with Brady, Manning, Rodgers and Brees all having won Super Bowls and putting up monster numbers - collectively crushing pretty much every passing record on the books.

But, winning multiple SB's has historically been a pass to the hall considering the only guy to do it that's not in had worse than average career numbers as a passer; it was clearly deemed that his teams won multiple rings in spite of QB play as opposed to being the driving force behind those 2 wins.

If Ben continues on his current trajectory he's a guarantee. He may already be a guarantee. Last year he was definitely a top 5 QB and that offense is primed for another huge year.

Eli has not only won 2 Super Bowls which has historically been almost a lock for the Hall, he's also a 2x Super Bowl MVP. He may be more likely to get in than Ben based on that alone.

Only 5 players in history have been named SB MVP twice or more (Montana and Brady with 3, Bradshaw, Starr and Eli with 2). All others are in. Both Eli and Ben are definitely better players than Bradshaw.

IMO being in that company is an almost guarantee he gets in.

A further note* 23 of 33 eligible SB MVP winners are in the Hall. So, 66% of SB MVP winners get in in general.

13 of 17 Hall eligible SB MVP awards won by QBs were won by guys in the Hall. That's more than 75%. Plunkett, Simms, Rypien, and Doug Williams are the only ones not in.

Shoot, Joe Namath is in.

---

Point is - you're right that Rivers, Romo, Ryan - guys like that are ridiculous to be in HOF discussions.

But, history says both Ben and Eli are near locks for the Hall. Their stats blow away many guys from the past that are in... And of course the argument is the games changed, more passing, etc...

But that argument in reverse can be made to diminish guys like Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr who are in more on the merits of winning than being dominant passers and putting up big numbers - but the game was different then and winning multiple SB's back then was not as impressive as doing it in the modern era with salary caps and Free Agency imo.

I think the voters will recognize that and decide they have the requisite stats and talent where it's not prohibitive to getting in, and the merits of winning 2 rings and in Eli's case 2 MVP's to boot puts them in elite enough company that they definitely deserve to get in.

Edited August 6, 2015 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Inqui]

Difference being that no one put Flacco at the level people have been putting Luck this early in his career.

True, but the point is that Joe's best games (so far) against the Patriots came a few years into his career so there's no reason to think Luck won't improve over time too. Even with a running game that's probably at a similar level to our secondary from last year.

 

And speaking of tangents, I think a lot of Luck's high rating is people factoring in a pretty high ceiling that he should keep getting closer to as he picks up more experience. It's the same as us with CJ and Jernigan. Not that I have a problem with anyone doing it for either of those three.

[usmccharles]

True, but the point is that Joe's best games (so far) against the Patriots came a few years into his career so there's no reason to think Luck won't improve over time too. Even with a running game that's probably at a similar level to our secondary from last year.

 

And speaking of tangents, I think a lot of Luck's high rating is people factoring in a pretty high ceiling that he should keep getting closer to as he picks up more experience. It's the same as us with CJ and Jernigan. Not that I have a problem with anyone doing it for either of those three.

I didnt mean to start this huge debate.  Merely trying bring up that Joe was getting flack for losing that game while i didnt hear anything about luck. 

[Inqui]

I didnt mean to start this huge debate.  Merely trying bring up that Joe was getting flack for losing that game while i didnt hear anything about luck. 

Fair play. In the bigger picture I don't think either player deserves to cop too much heat over what will ultimately amount to two or three games early in their career. So I guess I'm half agreeing.

[allblackraven]

If we win SB this year, Joe will finish career with more Lombardi's to his name than that cheater.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Joe's not gettting into the HoF unless he wins 2 more Super Bowls or goes Drew Brees for the next 7 seasons.

 

So, he'll need 2 more championships because there's no way he's putting up Brees-like numbers with Harbaugh's preference for shutting down the passing game with any decent lead in the 4th Qtr, sometimes 3rd Qtr and occassionally even the 2nd--like last year against Carolina and Tampa Bay. The only teams, so far, that Harbaugh will run up the score against are Pittsburgh and New England.

So, don't be surprised if Joe falls short of 30 TDs again, because Harbaugh won't let him pad his stats the way every other QB does, at the end of games against weaker defenses that they are dominating. Brady will be up by 40 points and will still be slinging it, even past the 2 minute warning. Joe meanwhile will be handing off to Forsett, Tali, and Buck beginning around the end of the 3rd/start of the 4th, even with just a 10+ point lead.

Why do you think, despite having a "balanced" offense, Joe barely cracks the top 10 in pass attempts? Because he generally only passes for about 3 qtrs in most games, since in most games the Ravens have the lead going into the 4th Qtr.

[52520Andrew]

True, but the point is that Joe's best games (so far) against the Patriots came a few years into his career so there's no reason to think Luck won't improve over time too. Even with a running game that's probably at a similar level to our secondary from last year.

And speaking of tangents, I think a lot of Luck's high rating is people factoring in a pretty high ceiling that he should keep getting closer to as he picks up more experience. It's the same as us with CJ and Jernigan. Not that I have a problem with anyone doing it for either of those three.

Well yeah I think Luck has plenty of potential, I just don't think he is there yet. I wouldn't call Jernigan a top 5 DT before he plays significant snaps for instance. As for Mosely, I think he needs to work on his coverage a bit more although he did fairly well last year, he would probably be the closest comparison to Luck between the 2 but I haven't really bothered to get my linebackers ranked yet so I couldn't tell you where he would be.

[1/28/01]

If we win SB this year, Joe will finish career with more Lombardi's to his name than that cheater.

So, Joe Flacco will finish his career with 5 SB wins? What you smokin'?

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Joe's not gettting into the HoF unless he wins 2 more Super Bowls or goes Drew Brees for the next 7 seasons.

 

So, he'll need 2 more championships because there's no way he's putting up Brees-like numbers with Harbaugh's preference for shutting down the passing game with any decent lead in the 4th Qtr, sometimes 3rd Qtr and occassionally even the 2nd--like last year against Carolina and Tampa Bay. The only teams, so far, that Harbaugh will run up the score against are Pittsburgh and New England.

So, don't be surprised if Joe falls short of 30 TDs again, because Harbaugh won't let him pad his stats the way every other QB does, at the end of games against weaker defenses that they are dominating. Brady will be up by 40 points and will still be slinging it, even past the 2 minute warning. Joe meanwhile will be handing off to Forsett, Tali, and Buck beginning around the end of the 3rd/start of the 4th, even with just a 10+ point lead.

Why do you think, despite having a "balanced" offense, Joe barely cracks the top 10 in pass attempts? Because he generally only passes for about 3 qtrs in most games, since in most games the Ravens have the lead going into the 4th Qtr.

 

 

Only 1 QB with 2 super bowls isnt in the Hall of Fame.

 

Unless Rodgers, Brees, and Manning win a 2nd - I think he'd get in with 2 because it's already seen as a great achievement that almost every QB whose done it is in the Hall.... and if those 3 guys dont ever win a 2nd it makes doing so in this era all the more impressive.

 

Honestly none of us knows what the voters will be looking for when voting in this era of QB's... but in order to have this conversation you have to look at what has gotten QB's in in the past.

 

Being one of the top QBs of your era in terms of numbers and wins seems to do it. So does winning 2 Super Bowls. And if Joe can win a 2nd and be the MVP again, forget it he's in. Just like Eli will be. 

 

Every multiple SB MVP winner is in the Hall. I doubt that streak stops just bc Eli isnt tops in the league in stats. It's still one of the most difficult achievements in football.. and the Hall is all about being in rare company.

[allblackraven]

So, Joe Flacco will finish his career with 5 SB wins? What you smokin'?

3 - but fair and square.

[beanfigger]

So, Joe Flacco will finish his career with 5 SB wins? What you smokin'?

 

Yeah, that's a lot. 2 seems likely, in my opinion, but surely not a given. 3 is realistic. 4 is super-optimistic. 5? That's kind of a fantasy. Impossible? Maybe not, technically, but I wouldn't expect it.

Edited August 6, 2015 by beanfigger

[Tank 92]

To be fair, Joe already has more SB wins than the cheater, more SBs without an asterisk that is.

[usmccharles]

 

To be fair, Joe already has more SB wins than the cheater, more SBs without an asterisk that is.

 

as much as i cant stand brady or the pats, ill still give credit where its due, last year they were the best team.  If we would of beat the pats i have no doubt we would of taken down the colts then face the seahawks, then its anyones game.  

 

The pats didnt win for almost ten years, they may have done some sketchy stuff, but im sure a lot of teams do, they just got caugh, but deflating footballs is not why the won last year,  Give the man some credit and sidenote, i now extremely dislike you for making me publicly stand up for that team and that qb

[Inqui]

as much as i cant stand brady or the pats, ill still give credit where its due, last year they were the best team.  If we would of beat the pats i have no doubt we would of taken down the colts then face the seahawks, then its anyones game.  

 

The pats didnt win for almost ten years, they may have done some sketchy stuff, but im sure a lot of teams do, they just got caugh, but deflating footballs is not why the won last year,  Give the man some credit and sidenote, i now extremely dislike you for making me publicly stand up for that team and that qb

That must feel about as filthy as cheering for the Steelers a couple of years ago when we needed to stay close to the Bengals to have a dig at the division title.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

So, Joe Flacco will finish his career with 5 SB wins? What you smokin'?

With how young most of our defense is(Williams, Jernigan, Davis, Mosey, Brown waiting in the wings, Jimmy, Hill, Lewis isn't that old). It's very feasable for him to get to four.. Winning them all is a different story. Our core is very young.......Simple.

Flacco wins 3 SBs with 3 SB MVPs, there's no way he doesn't make it honestly(into the HOF). That's obviously a ton to ask though.

Flacco is good bordering great QB(don't you dare say the e word. Only QBs in the NFL fit that mold). But he needs that defense to win a few more especially since he's got a lack of experienced weapons atm.

[Tank 92]

as much as i cant stand brady or the pats, ill still give credit where its due, last year they were the best team.  If we would of beat the pats i have no doubt we would of taken down the colts then face the seahawks, then its anyones game.  

 

The pats didnt win for almost ten years, they may have done some sketchy stuff, but im sure a lot of teams do, they just got caugh, but deflating footballs is not why the won last year,  Give the man some credit and sidenote, i now extremely dislike you for making me publicly stand up for that team and that qb

 

While I agree all teams may skirt the rules at one time or another, the patsies have had a culture of cheating for a long, long time.  Casual research will reveal numerous instances and that's only what has been discovered.

 

Make no mistake Chuck, those guys are scum bag cheaters and I would never cosign their "success".

[usmccharles]

While I agree all teams may skirt the rules at one time or another, the patsies have had a culture of cheating for a long, long time. Casual research will reveal numerous instances and that's only what has been discovered.

Make no mistake Chuck, those guys are scum bag cheaters and I would never cosign their "success".

By no means do I want the Patriots to win a single game, but sometimes hate has to be put aside and give credit. If anything, the formations they ran in our game gets to me more than anything. Hopefully we see them in the playoffs this year, Joe lit them up when they had Revis and cro.... Imagine what he will do this year.

[Tank 92]

By no means do I want the Patriots to win a single game, but sometimes hate has to be put aside and give credit. If anything, the formations they ran in our game gets to me more than anything. Hopefully we see them in the playoffs this year, Joe lit them up when they had Revis and cro.... Imagine what he will do this year.

Sorry Chuck. I don't dislike them because they have beaten us, or because they have won anything. Lying, cheating scum bags do not deserve any credit.

[jimmypowder]

Sorry Chuck. I don't dislike them because they have beaten us, or because they have won anything. Lying, cheating scum bags do not deserve any credit.

+1

[Kid87]

The O-line helps alot... 2013 Flacco was sacked 48 times.. 2014 just 19*... Elite QB. ELITE O-Line

[1/28/01]

The O-line helps alot... 2013 Flacco was sacked 48 times.. 2014 just 19*... Elite QB. ELITE O-Line

Just stop the use of the "e" word please, ha.