Flacco's greatness, a sad truth

[Tru11]

Please tell me where I stated anywhere that these guys were worse than Flacco. I'm not even going to read your whole post because that seems to be the gist of what you're saying. What I said was the people in the media ranking these guys flip-flop them above and below Flacco so Flacco always stays in the same place. It is like people are set in stone that no matter what Flacco belongs right in one exact spot in the rankings, destined never to move up or down. So when QBs like this have rough seasons, they drop below him but are replaced by whoever is this year's hype-monster. Then, when the hype disappears from the flashes in the pan, they put those veterans back above him. There is no point attempting to prove to me that these guys have put up nice seasons. I know they have. I never stated differently.

 

you used romo , rivers and eli as examples saying they went through bad stretches.

 

im wondering what stretches you are talking about  cause i dont see them.

[beanfigger]

you used romo , rivers and eli as examples saying they went through bad stretches.

im wondering what stretches you are talking about cause i dont see them.

I was saying that's how they were treated by the "experts". They apparently have a different criteria than you. I'll never bad mouth these guys again around you now that I know how highly you hold them in your heart.

[cobrajet]

Oh and for the record............Joe is not a cheater. I do not want a "Tainted Lombardi" in our house!

[izvoodoo]

Over the last 6 years Ben has averaged 4,013 yards per season,25 tds per season and 10 ints per season.There are some outliers messing up those averages(he missed 4 games in 2010 and his 2014 stats are an anomaly)but that's pretty much what we get from Flacco.The only reason his passer rating is higher is because of his completion percentage.His past six seasons haven't been much better than Joe's.And I'm not just saying that because I'm a Ravens fan.If Ben's stats are good enough for the HOF then that means Rivers,Ryan and Romo are all one ring away from the HOF too because they've all out stated him by a mile.I know that the way the teams are built has to do with that but that's not what most people look at.The HOF should be for elite QB's like Rodgers,Peyton,Brady and Bree's.Up until this point Roethlisberger has never been on par with them but he has a STACKED!!! offense around him so who knows what will happen in his last 5 or so years.

For what it's worth I always saw Ben as a HOFer. He's always been kind of more than the stats.  

[DWplayer]

whoa, slow down. eli manning and ben roethlisberger have 2 super bowls

And have made it to 3

[ravensnick]

Montana didn't have any 4,000 yds passing seasons. I get it was a different era, but he also had Jerry Rice. 

Edited August 3, 2015 by ravensnick

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

Montana didn't have any 4,000 yds passing seasons. I get it was a different era, but he also had Jerry Rice. 

 

 

Holding the fact that Montana never threw for 4,000 yards against him would be like holding the fact that Rodgers has never thrown for 5,000 yards against him.Even if either of them never hit those marks they're both still the best QB's of their era's.Montana's numbers were Rodgers like in the 80's.

[Inqui]

Holding the fact that Montana never threw for 4,000 yards against him would be like holding the fact that Rodgers has never thrown for 5,000 yards against him.Even if either of them never hit those marks they're both still the best QB's of their era's.Montana's numbers were Rodgers like in the 80's.

I think his point is that you don't need flashy numbers to be great, especially given how subjective QB figures can be.

[RavensFanMania]

I think his point is that you don't need flashy numbers to be great, especially given how subjective QB figures can be.

Just look at Troy Aikman.  I don't believe he ever passed for 3k yards.  It was a different era and qb passing yardage shouldn't be held against them.  Every team has a different offensive philosophy.  The Ravens are more of a run based team.   That certainly hasn't stopped the Ravens from winning games and going to the playoffs.  The Ravens have an excellent record on the road as well.  I'd love to see Flacco's record on the road vs. the rest of the leagues average on the road.

[usmccharles]

If Joe had the weapons some that some of the other teams had and was not hampered by having Cam Cameron his first few years his stats would most definitely be better. Can you honestly say Joe has ever had a true #1 receiver in his prime?

 

I make this point all the time, but in all fairness, how many of those teams with "those weapons" could of won a SB with the defense we had for so long. 

 

Im a huge supporter of Joe and yes, he has never had a megatron, julio, dez...etc...but those teams also never had a Ray Lewis, Ed, etc....Joe won a lot of his games 10-15 or so where a lot of the credit would of went to the defense, stover/tucker, but because hes a qb, he gets the win....also gets the losses (although, i dont think anyone will say he lost that game against NE last year)

 

Sidenote, maybe a little off topic, but while we are speaking of other great QBs:  One thing i hardly ever see mention, Everyone gives andrew luck all this credit, But what did he do against the NE defense? Nothing.  What did Joe do? we all know that, its just funny to mention that when debating with sports guys. 

[Inqui]

Sidenote, maybe a little off topic, but while we are speaking of other great QBs:  One thing i hardly ever see mention, Everyone gives andrew luck all this credit, But what did he do against the NE defense? Nothing.  What did Joe do? we all know that, its just funny to mention that when debating with sports guys. 

In 2009 Joe went 4/10 for 34 yards, 0TD and a pick against the Patriots in the Wild Card Round. Not to knock Joe, but give Luck another year or two to prove himself.

[usmccharles]

In 2009 Joe went 4/10 for 34 yards, 0TD and a pick against the Patriots in the Wild Card Round. Not to knock Joe, but give Luck another year or two to prove himself.

Oh i agree, i was just throwing that out there. Yea, that game was amazing, first play of the game an 83 yard td run. then suggs with the sack strip...such a great game Edited August 4, 2015 by Moderator 3
Video killing page load

[Inqui]

Oh i agree, i was just throwing that out there.  Yea, that game was amazing, first play of the game an 83 yard td run. then suggs with the sack strip...such a great game

 

Yeah, I went to dig up the exact stats and couldn't resist watching the highlights again. What a first quarter.

[hawkprey]

In 2009 Joe went 4/10 for 34 yards, 0TD and a pick against the Patriots in the Wild Card Round. Not to knock Joe, but give Luck another year or two to prove himself.

By the same token, no one ever calls out Brady for a playing monumental flub of a game.

[usmccharles]

Yeah, I went to dig up the exact stats and couldn't resist watching the highlights again. What a first quarter.

never gets old.  And honestly i think thats where our confidence comes from playing in foxboro. 

[Inqui]

By the same token, no one ever calls out Brady for a playing monumental flub of a game.

That one I'll give you, although it's hard to say how much of that was just our defence pitching a blinder.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

I think his point is that you don't need flashy numbers to be great, especially given how subjective QB figures can be.

 

 

I get what he was trying to say.I was just defending Montana's numbers.Montana actually did have flashy numbers.

[usmccharles]

That one I'll give you, although it's hard to say how much of that was just our defence pitching a blinder.

I don't even know what that means

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

In 2009 Joe went 4/10 for 34 yards, 0TD and a pick against the Patriots in the Wild Card Round. Not to knock Joe, but give Luck another year or two to prove himself.

 

 

I hate when people bring that game up.Joe didn't have a bad game that day.He just wasn't asked to do anything.Also,he had a serious thigh injury he was dealing with.

[Mick0311]

whoa, slow down. eli manning and ben roethlisberger have 2 super bowls, and neither of them are hall of fame worthy. roethlisberger, maybe.

 

Roethlisberger will get in because his stats will be close enough and he's a Steeler.

[Inqui]

I don't even know what that means

Did Brady have a bad game, or was it more that Ray Lewis and co had a really good one?

[Inqui]

I hate when people bring that game up.Joe didn't have a bad game that day.He just wasn't asked to do anything.Also,he had a serious thigh injury he was dealing with.

You could argue that Luck's at the opposite end of that spectrum, in that he's being asked to do too much because the Colts have a pretty dismal (to be generous) running game so their game plan would be just as predictable as ours was. Either way, the point for both QBs is that one lacklustre game early in their respective careers (two years in for Joe, two and then three years in for Luck) obviously won't define their careers.

[52520Andrew]

You could argue that Luck's at the opposite end of that spectrum, in that he's being asked to do too much because the Colts have a pretty dismal (to be generous) running game so their game plan would be just as predictable as ours was. Either way, the point for both QBs is that one lacklustre game early in their respective careers (two years in for Joe, two and then three years in for Luck) obviously won't define their careers.

Difference being that no one put Flacco at the level people have been putting Luck this early in his career.

[BmoreSports09]

I hate when people bring that game up.Joe didn't have a bad game that day.He just wasn't asked to do anything.Also,he had a serious thigh injury he was dealing with.

Dude... He had a bad game, thigh injury or not lol

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I hate when people bring that game up.Joe didn't have a bad game that day.He just wasn't asked to do anything.Also,he had a serious thigh injury he was dealing with.

Didn't we utterly dominate the Patriots that game?

[52520Andrew]

Didn't we utterly dominate the Patriots that game?

We did, kinda why I don't get people who bash Flacco for that game. As if the guy was going to sling it 50 times after that first quarter lol

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Those saying Flacco is headed towards HOF contention, you'd also have to say with a SB Rivers is a shoe-in then. Which I dont think he is, but his stats have trumped Flacco's year in and year out. Rivers's down years (for instance, 2011) are Flacco's best years statistically. And we all know thats what a lot of HOF voters go off of.

Flacco is judged fairly accurately in my opinion. He is routinely criticized for his pedestrian play in the regular reason while also being mentioned how he is a different QB in the post season. Analyst upon analyst has stated this. He's also always sitting around 8-12 in various QB rankings. And depending on which year we're talking, that's also accurate.

They would have to be assuming a continued steady increase in Flacco's stats over the next 2-3 years and then sustaining that peak for another 3+ years... Which isn't entirely unreasonable. He would then be putting up the type of stats Rivers, Romo, Ryan, etc... Put up but Flacco would then have the edge on wins and especially post season wins.

I think Flaccos got a lot of work to do to guarantee the Hall, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned that bodes well for him is that the voters do tend to favor historical achievements.

And Flaccos got his Super Bowl playoff run that ranks all time all time. I think he's already won the most road playoff games of any QB with plenty of time to pad a comfortable lead. Wilson's probably going to break them, but he's got some all time win numbers overall and in the playoffs. And he could have the best road playoff win percentage when all is said and done (let's hope we see more home games going forward).

So where he takes a knock for not having the stats he does have a few things going for him that voters tend to like... They've put some arguably undeserving players in the Hall because they accomplished some historical achievement.

Plus, I think naturally the trend of adding pieces to compliment Joe and build around him will continue which will help him add the necessary stats to be among the Hall of Fame considered QBs from this era - where his wins, Super Bowl(s) and historical achievements will hopefully put him over the top.

Looks like Luck and Wilson aren't going to make it easy on him though.

Any other era and this would be a lot easier of a conversation. But playing at the same time as Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning, Luck, Wilson, and to a lesser extent Roethlisberger and Eli (who have the edge on stats and SB's currently) and Romo, Rivers, and Ryan (stats without the winning) it's just crazy.

They can't all get in.

And I don't think he'll be evaluated against the guys already in - he'll be evaluated against the guys in his era.

And right now id say there are 6 QBs who definitely have a better case for the Hall than Flacco.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Holding the fact that Montana never threw for 4,000 yards against him would be like holding the fact that Rodgers has never thrown for 5,000 yards against him.Even if either of them never hit those marks they're both still the best QB's of their era's.Montana's numbers were Rodgers like in the 80's.

Agree. I think going forward now more than ever, and especially at the skills positions - getting into the Hall of Fame isn't going to be about how you rank among guys already in the Hall, it'll be how you compare to the guys in your era.

Because now, even mediocre starters will be putting up stats on par with Montana and Elway.

Getting into the Hall as a QB during this era is going to be extremely difficult... And they're not going to water it down and just let everyone in.

[callahan09]

To support this post, I'll add some numbers. Flacco already has more career passing yards than 9 Hall of Fame QBs. All of them were either playing before the Superbowl era or won multiple Superbowls (so if Flacco wins another ring...). With a healthy year this season, he'll pass 5 more, including Bradshaw and two QBs with only one ring (Namath, Dawson). In two more healthy seasons, he'll have more than players like Aikman and Young (one ring as a starter) and two other HOFers (three if Warner gets in). He'll then be in the top 30 all time. Not bad for someone with awful stats, and he will only be 32. He'll likely finish his career in the top 20 all time for passing yards. You guys are telling me a Superbowl winning QB ranked that highly won't get into the Hall because of media bias or lack of Pro Bowls? I don't understand that.

 

As for TDs, let's assume he plays 8 more years. He wouldn't even need to average 18 TDs/season to pass players like Montana, Unitas, and Moon. If he averages 19/season, he'd tie Elway. This isn't a given by any means, but it is certainly doable, especially if his next couple years are around 28-30 per. Heck, even if he only gets 25/yr the next two seasons, he'd only need 16 TDs/season over the next six to pass Montana/Unitas/Moon and 17/season to get to Elway. Again, I think his Hall induction is closer than most people think.

I agree that he's ON TRACK.  The problem is, that it's a lot of IFs, and that's still a lot of years.  If he continues this track for another 7 or 8 years, I think he's a HOFer.  But 7 or 8 years is a lifetime in the NFL, so let's all just hope Joe can keep it going til age 37+!

[beanfigger]

I agree that he's ON TRACK. The problem is, that it's a lot of IFs, and that's still a lot of years. If he continues this track for another 7 or 8 years, I think he's a HOFer. But 7 or 8 years is a lifetime in the NFL, so let's all just hope Joe can keep it going til age 37+!

Yes, that's why I also mentioned the short term numbers he is almost assured to reach unless his career ends abruptly within the next couple years. Aikman and Young are within two healthy seasons in terms of yards.