[News] Steve Bisciotti's Statement On Deflategate Reports

[Grapple Raven]

 

Unfortunately, because you continue to disregard the seriousness of spoliation of evidence, your entire response is largely irrelevant. You also continue to look to precedents for a situation that is without one. As far as legal analyses go, I hope you read the one that Tanked linked to, as it is one of the most recent and includes the destroyed cell phone into the author's opinion.

 

To continue Tank's quote:

 

"Since Brady purposefully instructed his assistant to destroy his phone on the same day of his interview with Ted Wells, I would fully expect the NFL to seek spoliation sanctions. These sanctions can include the outright dismissal of a case, monetary penalties, or the dreaded adverse inference jury instruction. This means that if Brady or the NFLPA sues the NFL, the judge could instruct a jury that they are allowed to draw an inference that the evidence contained in Brady’s phone would have been unfavorable to his case.

 

In most circumstances, an adverse inference is akin to an outright dismissal of the case since the jury (or sometimes the judge) is allowed to assume that whatever evidence was destroyed would have made the destroying party look awful.

There is no doubt that the NFL’s legal team will pursue an adverse inference. In Goodell’s decision letter, he states:

 

 

Finally, in footnote 12 of Goodell’s decision, he hints that Brady was acting under the advice of his attorneys. If true, his attorneys could also face severe sanctions, and even potential disbarment, if they actually ordered the destruction of highly relevant evidence.

 

At this point, both the NFL and Brady appear set for a lengthy court battle. However, Brady’s chances of success are drastically reduced due to his willful destruction of evidence. Even attempting to gain an injunction becomes exponentially more difficult as Brady’s likelihood of success on his overall claim is clouded by the lingering civil sanctions for destroying his phone."

 

Absolutely correct!  It will likely be difficult, but not impossible for Brady to get an injunction because to get an injunction Brady will 1) essentially have to prove to a judge that he can win his case in court (difficult in light of the spoliation of evidence with the destroyed cell phone which points to non cooperation, and conduct deterimental to the league), and 2) to prove that Brady has been caused "irreparable harm" by the decision of the NFL's ruling.  Most courts do not see economic loss (the loss of 4 game checks) in and of itself representing "irreparable harm".

[rmcjacket23]

 

Unfortunately, because you continue to disregard the seriousness of spoliation of evidence, your entire response is largely irrelevant. You also continue to look to precedents for a situation that is without one. As far as legal analyses go, I hope you read the one that Tanked linked to, as it is one of the most recent and includes the destroyed cell phone into the author's opinion.

 

To continue Tank's quote:

 

"Since Brady purposefully instructed his assistant to destroy his phone on the same day of his interview with Ted Wells, I would fully expect the NFL to seek spoliation sanctions. These sanctions can include the outright dismissal of a case, monetary penalties, or the dreaded adverse inference jury instruction. This means that if Brady or the NFLPA sues the NFL, the judge could instruct a jury that they are allowed to draw an inference that the evidence contained in Brady’s phone would have been unfavorable to his case.

 

In most circumstances, an adverse inference is akin to an outright dismissal of the case since the jury (or sometimes the judge) is allowed to assume that whatever evidence was destroyed would have made the destroying party look awful.

There is no doubt that the NFL’s legal team will pursue an adverse inference. In Goodell’s decision letter, he states:

 

 

Finally, in footnote 12 of Goodell’s decision, he hints that Brady was acting under the advice of his attorneys. If true, his attorneys could also face severe sanctions, and even potential disbarment, if they actually ordered the destruction of highly relevant evidence.

 

At this point, both the NFL and Brady appear set for a lengthy court battle. However, Brady’s chances of success are drastically reduced due to his willful destruction of evidence. Even attempting to gain an injunction becomes exponentially more difficult as Brady’s likelihood of success on his overall claim is clouded by the lingering civil sanctions for destroying his phone."

1. The irony of most of your post is that I already posted these exact same things in a post several months ago. 

 

2. The other aspect of this that you're overlooking. is in the NFLPA's "official rebuttal", they clearly stated that the NFL has the and has had the phone records. I'll repeat that just so its not misunderstood... according to the NFLPA, the NFL has and has had the phone records.

 

Welcome to a standard argument in a court of law.

[January J]

1. The irony of most of your post is that I already posted these exact same things in a post several months ago.

2. The other aspect of this that you're overlooking. is in the NFLPA's "official rebuttal", they clearly stated that the NFL has the and has had the phone records. I'll repeat that just so its not misunderstood... according to the NFLPA, the NFL has and has had the phone records.

Welcome to a standard argument in a court of law.

1) riiiight. Tx comes back with the perfect rebuttal to your point and all of a sudden your response is oh I already said that months ago. Well you certainly never mentioned anything like that in this thread. The spoliation of evidence is very relevant here, and didn't even become valid until yesterday where it was stated that Brady destroyed his phone. Oh I forgot , his phone just conviently broke during an investigation after he was asked for it. And none of the messages or emails were carried over onto his new phone. That's clearly spoliation with something that could potentially go to court and another reason why it won't.

Secondly, this will never go to court. A federal judge will most likely laugh and refer the case right back to the commissioner- who was granted completely authority and can unilaterally act on any situation relating the integrity of the game. I believe this is stated in article 46.

Also funny that Kraft was all for droppin the hammer before it involved his team and his quarterback. But that's neither here nor there.

Lastly- ppl keep talking about the standard of evidence and the precedence and how there's reasonable doubt and blazay blah.... It was CLEARLY stated after spygate that if anything related occurred within the patriots organization again that the standard was now the preponderence of evidence. Like it or not- the patriots organization is held to a higher standard due to spygate. Plain and simple. In my opinion that's all there is to it- and Brady, Kraft , and the patriots are gonna have to suck it up and take it.

Edited July 29, 2015 by January J

[rmcjacket23]

1) riiiight. Tx comes back with the perfect rebuttal to your point and all of a sudden your response is oh I already said that months ago. Well you certainly never mentioned anything like that in this thread. The spoliation of evidence is very relevant here, and didn't even become valid until yesterday where it was stated that Brady destroyed his phone. Oh I forgot , his phone just conviently broke during an investigation after he was asked for it. And none of the messages or emails were carried over onto his new phone. That's clearly spoliation with something that could potentially go to court and another reason why it won't.

Secondly, this will never go to court. A federal judge will most likely laugh and refer the case right back to the commissioner- who was granted completely authority and can unilaterally act on any situation relating the integrity of the game. I believe this is stated in article 46.

Also funny that Kraft was all for droppin the hammer before it involved his team and his quarterback. But that's neither here nor there.

Lastly- ppl keep talking about the standard of evidence and the precedence and how there's reasonable doubt and blazay blah.... It was CLEARLY stated after spygate that if anything related occurred within the patriots organization again that the standard was now the preponderence of evidence. Like it or not- the patriots organization is held to a higher standard due to spygate. Plain and simple. In my opinion that's all there is to it- and Brady, Kraft , and the patriots are gonna have to suck it up and take it.

1. Well, yes, because I did say that. I can track down the post if you really want me to. I get bashed for repeating the same thing over again on multiple threads, yet here I get bashed for not doing it. O the irony.

 

2. I don't really care about the he said/he said back and forth over the phone. I listened to three legal analysts just this morning on ESPN, and they all said the phone situation is mostly for the media and it won't matter in court, because a judge will only are about the process, not the actual evidence.

 

For what its worth, we know that the intiial four game suspension given to Brady was WITHOUT knowledge that Tom destroyed his phone. The suspension was handed down in in mid-May, and the NFL acknowledged it wasn't aware that Brady destroyed his phone until sometime in June. So it wasn't even part of their initial assessment of punishment, and upon learning of it, all it did was provide Goodell an additional reason not to alter the suspension. So people can't really use the "see he destroyed his phone" as justification for the original suspension, because it simply wasn't evidence at that time.

 

3. I previously didn't think it would go to court, but now it seems inevitable. A judge somewhere will listen to this farce. If the NFLPA gets its way, and it goes to Minnesota where Judge Doty is, he will definitely listen to it, because he loves this stuff. He may not overturn it or even really "rule" on it, but he will listen to it. I still fully expect an injunction to be granted somewhere, and I think where the case ends up is key from a judge standpoint.

 

4. I agree with the notion that the "preponderence of evidence" was the standard by which NFL teams knew that the NFL used, though from a legal sense, its a weak argument, because I don't believe that aspect was ever collectively bargained. It was mostly a "general understanding" amongsts the 32 teams of the basis by which the NFL investigates things. The Patriots undoubtedly knew this standard and can't plead ignorance surrounding it, or at least, not from a non-legal sense.

[The Mom Gene]

1. Well, yes, because I did say that. I can track down the post if you really want me to. I get bashed for repeating the same thing over again on multiple threads, yet here I get bashed for not doing it. O the irony.

 

2. I don't really care about the he said/he said back and forth over the phone. I listened to three legal analysts just this morning on ESPN, and they all said the phone situation is mostly for the media and it won't matter in court, because a judge will only are about the process, not the actual evidence.

 

For what its worth, we know that the intiial four game suspension given to Brady was WITHOUT knowledge that Tom destroyed his phone. The suspension was handed down in in mid-May, and the NFL acknowledged it wasn't aware that Brady destroyed his phone until sometime in June. So it wasn't even part of their initial assessment of punishment, and upon learning of it, all it did was provide Goodell an additional reason not to alter the suspension. So people can't really use the "see he destroyed his phone" as justification for the original suspension, because it simply wasn't evidence at that time.

 

3. I previously didn't think it would go to court, but now it seems inevitable. A judge somewhere will listen to this farce. If the NFLPA gets its way, and it goes to Minnesota where Judge Doty is, he will definitely listen to it, because he loves this stuff. He may not overturn it or even really "rule" on it, but he will listen to it. I still fully expect an injunction to be granted somewhere, and I think where the case ends up is key from a judge standpoint.

 

4. I agree with the notion that the "preponderence of evidence" was the standard by which NFL teams knew that the NFL used, though from a legal sense, its a weak argument, because I don't believe that aspect was ever collectively bargained. It was mostly a "general understanding" amongsts the 32 teams of the basis by which the NFL investigates things. The Patriots undoubtedly knew this standard and can't plead ignorance surrounding it, or at least, not from a non-legal sense.

1.)  Rodger clearly stated that the reason the suspension WAS NOT reduced was due to "new information and new evidence."....  They were prepared to reduce the punishment.  Even tried to negotiate with Brady, but to no avail.

 

He just needed to cooperate...  and he didn't.  If anything he evaded and intentionally lied.  And, even went as far as destruction of evidence.  That's the portion of this whole thing that will bite him in the butt in the end.  Because evidence is crucial to prove innocence.  If we assume guilt, then the destruction of evidence makes it even more detrimental to his cause.

[rmcjacket23]

1.)  Rodger clearly stated that the reason the suspension WAS NOT reduced was due to "new information and new evidence."....  They were prepared to reduce the punishment.  Even tried to negotiate with Brady, but to no avail.

 

He just needed to cooperate...  and he didn't.  If anything he evaded and intentionally lied.  And, even went as far as destruction of evidence.  That's the portion of this whole thing that will bite him in the butt in the end.  Because evidence is crucial to prove innocence.  If we assume guilt, then the destruction of evidence makes it even more detrimental to his cause.

1. But again, we're just making he said/he said. NFL says they tried to negotiate, Brady and the NFLPA said they basically didn't. If you buy some of the reports, the NFL was willing to reduce it to two games IF Brady admitted a lack of cooperation and that he was basically guilty. When you don't believe you are guilty (as Brady has made it crystal clear that he doesn't think he is), then most of the time you wouldn't accept such a deal. Not really hard to understand why, from both sides, no deal was reached.

 

2. Probably won't bite him in the butt at the end, because its already bit him in the butt from the public perspective, as their indictment is official and can't be changed. He's not going to be able to prove innocence in the public's eyes, and the court case he's going into will have absolutely nothing to do with proving innocence or guilt.

[January J]

1. Well, yes, because I did say that. I can track down the post if you really want me to. I get bashed for repeating the same thing over again on multiple threads, yet here I get bashed for not doing it. O the irony.

2. I don't really care about the he said/he said back and forth over the phone. I listened to three legal analysts just this morning on ESPN, and they all said the phone situation is mostly for the media and it won't matter in court, because a judge will only are about the process, not the actual evidence.

For what its worth, we know that the intiial four game suspension given to Brady was WITHOUT knowledge that Tom destroyed his phone. The suspension was handed down in in mid-May, and the NFL acknowledged it wasn't aware that Brady destroyed his phone until sometime in June. So it wasn't even part of their initial assessment of punishment, and upon learning of it, all it did was provide Goodell an additional reason not to alter the suspension. So people can't really use the "see he destroyed his phone" as justification for the original suspension, because it simply wasn't evidence at that time.

3. I previously didn't think it would go to court, but now it seems inevitable. A judge somewhere will listen to this farce. If the NFLPA gets its way, and it goes to Minnesota where Judge Doty is, he will definitely listen to it, because he loves this stuff. He may not overturn it or even really "rule" on it, but he will listen to it. I still fully expect an injunction to be granted somewhere, and I think where the case ends up is key from a judge standpoint.

4. I agree with the notion that the "preponderence of evidence" was the standard by which NFL teams knew that the NFL used, though from a legal sense, its a weak argument, because I don't believe that aspect was ever collectively bargained. It was mostly a "general understanding" amongsts the 32 teams of the basis by which the NFL investigates things. The Patriots undoubtedly knew this standard and can't plead ignorance surrounding it, or at least, not from a non-legal sense.

I don't think anybody is trying to use that argument as justification, they are using it as justification as to why he upheld the suspension and didn't reduce it.

Like I said , a judge will likely see this, and refer it right back to the commissioner.. Bc all 32 nfl teams were fully aware that roger Goodell has the power to unilaterally make these decisions as stated in article 46. There's nothing else to it, after Goodell ruled the suspension was upheld, that is the end of it. Anything else will be completely pointless and like beating a dead horse. All of a sudden Brady wants to start talking and trying to explain things, where was this months ago? It should have never came to this and if he wasn't so arrogant he would have gotten a slap on the wrist. Yeah I'm sure he spoke in the appeal hearing , but he must not have said much bc it obviously wasn't enough.

[rmcjacket23]

I don't think anybody is trying to use that argument as justification, they are using it as justification as to why he upheld the suspension and didn't reduce it.

Like I said , a judge will likely see this, and refer it right back to the commissioner.. Bc all 32 nfl teams were fully aware that roger Goodell has the power to unilaterally make these decisions as stated in article 46. There's nothing else to it, after Goodell ruled the suspension was upheld, that is the end of it. Anything else will be completely pointless and like beating a dead horse. All of a sudden Brady wants to start talking and trying to explain things, where was this months ago? It should have never came to this and if he wasn't so arrogant he would have gotten a slap on the wrist. Yeah I'm sure he spoke in the appeal hearing , but he must not have said much bc it obviously wasn't enough.

Great in theory, except if it were as simple as "you collectively bargained this so deal with it", then Adrian Peterson's case doesn't get overturned either, and neither does the Saints players in BountyGate. But they were overturned, because a judge will look at the process by which the punishment was administered and determine its validity. Not saying that all cases are the same, but there's certainly very recent precedent where a judge didn't just take the "you agreed to this" approach in regards to allowing Goodell to administer whatever punishment he wants.

 

There's countless ways this process could have been handled differently. Brady did a ton of things wrong, as did the NFL. I posted in another thread, but if I'm the Commissioner, I don't care who deflated the footballs or who instructed them to do so. I find out if the balls were excessively deflated, and I punish the organization for it. End of the story. I don't need Brady testimony and a six month investigation into deflating footballs that leads to lies and deception and bunch of he said/he said that leads us to sending this farce to federal court.

 

The last time a team manipulated footballs illegally, literally nobody heard about it. Teams are fined for standard equipment violations on probably a weekly basis in this league, and nobody once cares. They were fined, the investigation probably took an hour total, and life moved along.

 

Brady handled this horribly, and the NFL handled this horribly. And at the end of the day, everybody looks incompetent.

[January J]

Great in theory, except if it were as simple as "you collectively bargained this so deal with it", then Adrian Peterson's case doesn't get overturned either, and neither does the Saints players in BountyGate. But they were overturned, because a judge will look at the process by which the punishment was administered and determine its validity. Not saying that all cases are the same, but there's certainly very recent precedent where a judge didn't just take the "you agreed to this" approach in regards to allowing Goodell to administer whatever punishment he wants.

There's countless ways this process could have been handled differently. Brady did a ton of things wrong, as did the NFL. I posted in another thread, but if I'm the Commissioner, I don't care who deflated the footballs or who instructed them to do so. I find out if the balls were excessively deflated, and I punish the organization for it. End of the story. I don't need Brady testimony and a six month investigation into deflating footballs that leads to lies and deception and bunch of he said/he said that leads us to sending this farce to federal court.

The last time a team manipulated footballs illegally, literally nobody heard about it. Teams are fined for standard equipment violations on probably a weekly basis in this league, and nobody once cares. They were fined, the investigation probably took an hour total, and life moved along.

Brady handled this horribly, and the NFL handled this horribly. And at the end of the day, everybody looks incompetent.

and that's why you would never be commissioner. And you would actually be under more heat than Goodell right now.

again- they are being held to a higher standard bc of spygate. Doesn't matter what they did to other teams last time... We likely never heard about it bc it wasn't during an afc championship game, they weren't already known for cheating, and they probably cooperated. This isn't a standard equipment violation, and likely they've been doing this for years , hence the fumble anamoly ontop of several other things that suggest they have a culture of cheating. After spygate Goodell clearly addressed that the new standard for them would be preponderence of evidence, and that if they violated the integrity of the game that the punishments would then be harsher. And then ontop of that, they obstructed the whole investigation. So yes, ofcourse the punishment is going to be harsher than usual.

Edited July 29, 2015 by January J

[TXRavensFan]

1. The irony of most of your post is that I already posted these exact same things in a post several months ago. 

 

2. The other aspect of this that you're overlooking. is in the NFLPA's "official rebuttal", they clearly stated that the NFL has the and has had the phone records. I'll repeat that just so its not misunderstood... according to the NFLPA, the NFL has and has had the phone records.

 

Welcome to a standard argument in a court of law.

 

Let me further clarify so that you don't misunderstand, "phone records" is not the same as "text messages."

 

If we take this quote from Brady's statement, "We even contacted the phone company to see if there was any possible way we could retrieve any/all of the actual text messages from my old phone" it's clear that what they provided the NFL was simply a list of numbers and times that text messages were sent/received, without the actual messages themselves (which were actually requested).

 

The chain of events therefore looks like this:

 

- Brady is informed that investigators want him to testify and have access to relevant text messages

- Brady destroys his phone and sim card, then refuses to provide access to the texts

- Brady waits until just before the appeal hearing to inform the NFL that the phone was destroyed (conveniently long enough ago that any text messages retained by his carrier would have been purged) and then send a lists of "phone records" to the NFL (which were not requested).

- Brady claims that he cooperated by sending an "unprecedented" amount of personal information to the league, in an effort to combat the "non-cooperation" charge, and claim that he used extraordinary measured to try to obtain the actual texts.

 

What really doesn't add up is that if, as Brady says, "...my attorneys made it clear to the NFL that my actual phone device would not be subjected to investigation under ANY circumstances. As a member of a union, I was under no obligation to set a new precedent going forward...", why would his team then "[exhaust] every possibility to give the NFL everything we could and offered to go thru the identity for every text and phone call during the relevant time."?

 

Just my own opinion, but it sure smells like an empty gesture to show the courts in a future lawsuit that he really did cooperate, all the while fully knowing that the actual information requested would never be retrievable.

[rmcjacket23]

and that's why you would never be commissioner. And you would actually be under more heat than Goodell right now.

again- they are being held to a higher standard bc of spygate. Doesn't matter what they did to other teams last time... We likely never heard about it bc it wasn't during an afc championship game, they weren't already known for cheating, and they probably cooperated. This isn't a standard equipment violation, and likely they've been doing this for years , hence the fumble anamoly ontop of several other things that suggest they have a culture of cheating. After spygate Goodell clearly addressed that the new standard for them would be preponderence of evidence, and that if they violated the integrity of the game that the punishments would then be harsher.

1. Actually, it is a standard equipment violation. The rule they violed is a standard equipment rule. That's not up for debate. Its been amplified into something more than that primarily because 1. Its the Patriots, who the public hates for a variety of valid and invalid reasons and 2. Its not the first time they've been caught cheating. Putting footballs in an oven and deflating them are both fully done with the intent of doctoring the balls to their own benefit, a violation of the rules. Nobody cared about the previous incident, because the Vikings, a typically mediocre team, were doing it. No different than the outrage over the Falcons pumping crowd noise into a stadium for multiple seasons gets like 1% of the response that this story does, even when the entire spirit of doing that is again for a competitive advantage, aka cheating.

 

2. No, this is why you would never ben commissioner. No reasonable Commissioner issues a punishment based on "well they've probably been doing it for years". There is ZERO indication that was even a remote consideration in this case, nor should it have been. If you want to see a Commissioner get fired by his bosses, go down the path of issuing punishment based on completely hypotheticals and guessing, which is what that notion is.

 

3. Remember, in my scenario, the punishments are harsher. We went from a typical rule violation fine (which the Vikings only got a stern warning, not even a fine) to a much larger fine and loss of at least one draft pick. That's a pretty major increase in punishment for an organization if you ask me, and you already agreed to that yourself.

 

What my scenario does is simply eliminate most of the arbitrary crap that has come afterwards. There is no interrogation room where I waltz players, coaches, interns, etc. in and out and spend months and millions of dollars trying to gather evidence to determine whether or not footballs were deflated by more than pound. Thats a waste of 100% of the peoples time.

 

You yourself have acknowledged that the punishment is largely based on lying and lack of cooperation. Under my scenario, neither of those are a problem, because I simply don't care who is responsible. I don't care about the "no he did it" finger pointing that inevitably comes from that, or the hundreds of people who act surprised and in denial. I simply determine that the footballs were deflated beyond a reasonable standard, and issue a organizational punishment, as has been done in previous instances.

 

There is no lying, because there's nothing to lie about, because there is no inquisition. There's nothing to fail to cooperate with, other than you attempting to appeal my ruling, which no organization would, because they care less than I do.

 

I just saved us six months of embarrassment, millions of dollars, and becoming a laughing stock in the media and the public. And my "shield", the only thing I really care about, is in the same shape it was before the incident happened. There's no sponsors or media beating down my door for a more severe punishment, because they didn't know how to react to the initial infraction anyway.

[January J]

Let me further clarify so that you don't misunderstand, "phone records" is not the same as "text messages."

If we take this quote from Brady's statement, "We even contacted the phone company to see if there was any possible way we could retrieve any/all of the actual text messages from my old phone" it's clear that what they provided the NFL was simply a list of numbers and times that text messages were sent/received, without the actual messages themselves (which were actually requested).

The chain of events therefore looks like this:

- Brady is informed that investigators want him to testify and have access to relevant text messages

- Brady destroys his phone and sim card, then refuses to provide access to the texts

- Brady waits until just before the appeal hearing to inform the NFL that the phone was destroyed (conveniently long enough ago that any text messages retained by his carrier would have been purged) and then send a lists of "phone records" to the NFL (which were not requested).

- Brady claims that he cooperated by sending an "unprecedented" amount of personal information to the league, in an effort to combat the "non-cooperation" charge, and claim that he used extraordinary measured to try to obtain the actual texts.

What really doesn't add up is that if, as Brady says, "...my attorneys made it clear to the NFL that my actual phone device would not be subjected to investigation under ANY circumstances. As a member of a union, I was under no obligation to set a new precedent going forward...", why would his team then "[exhaust] every possibility to give the NFL everything we could and offered to go thru the identity for every text and phone call during the relevant time."?

Just my own opinion, but it sure smells like an empty gesture to show the courts in a future lawsuit that he really did cooperate, all the while fully knowing that the actual information requested would never be retrievable.

excellent point! I too had a similar suspicion, just struggled putting it in to words. why make an effort to go to the phone company and ask then if he could retrieve the messages if they already made it clear they weren't in any circumstance giving up the phone? Doesn't make any sense. He probably wanted to confirm from the phone company that him destroying his phone had then made his texts untraceable. He was just making sure he had covered his tracks and at the same time make it appear to the NFL that he tried to help them and made an attempt to cooperate. The whole thing just reaks.

[rmcjacket23]

 

Let me further clarify so that you don't misunderstand, "phone records" is not the same as "text messages."

 

If we take this quote from Brady's statement, "We even contacted the phone company to see if there was any possible way we could retrieve any/all of the actual text messages from my old phone" it's clear that what they provided the NFL was simply a list of numbers and times that text messages were sent/received, without the actual messages themselves (which were actually requested).

 

The chain of events therefore looks like this:

 

- Brady is informed that investigators want him to testify and have access to relevant text messages

- Brady destroys his phone and sim card, then refuses to provide access to the texts

- Brady waits until just before the appeal hearing to inform the NFL that the phone was destroyed (conveniently long enough ago that any text messages retained by his carrier would have been purged) and then send a lists of "phone records" to the NFL (which were not requested).

- Brady claims that he cooperated by sending an "unprecedented" amount of personal information to the league, in an effort to combat the "non-cooperation" charge, and claim that he used extraordinary measured to try to obtain the actual texts.

 

What really doesn't add up is that if, as Brady says, "...my attorneys made it clear to the NFL that my actual phone device would not be subjected to investigation under ANY circumstances. As a member of a union, I was under no obligation to set a new precedent going forward...", why would his team then "[exhaust] every possibility to give the NFL everything we could and offered to go thru the identity for every text and phone call during the relevant time."?

 

Just my own opinion, but it sure smells like an empty gesture to show the courts in a future lawsuit that he really did cooperate, all the while fully knowing that the actual information requested would never be retrievable.

I agree... that's exactly what it is.

 

But again, based on what I've heard every legal analyst say today, the judicial system simply doesn't care about any of that. He's not going to court to get a judge to say "yeah Tom, you didn't do this, let me set you free". There won't be any admission of guilt or non-guilt by a judge in this case, because that's not even close to what the lawsuit will be seeking. That's not a case a judge would even take on.

 

From Tom's perspective, he thinks he provided whatever records the Wells team requested, and then he destroyed his phone for whatever reason he wants to justify, right or wrong. Its absolutely too "convenient" for everyone's liking, mine included, and I think he did it for the exact same reasons as everyone else.

 

BUT... my point is the same as every other analyst I've heard today... the whole "destroying of the phone" aspect of this case is primarily just fodder for the public. A legal system likely won't care, and the only real "value" it adds to the process was a reaffirmation of Goodell upholding the suspension (likely to occur anyway) and the public saying "ah ha... GUILTY" when they get more suspicious evidence.

 

This is way past the part of the investigation where we are still trying to figure out who done it and why they did it. We're at the stages of the process where the question remaining is "how in the World did the NFL come to this conclusion on this punishment".

[TXRavensFan]

I agree... that's exactly what it is.

 

But again, based on what I've heard every legal analyst say today, the judicial system simply doesn't care about any of that. He's not going to court to get a judge to say "yeah Tom, you didn't do this, let me set you free". There won't be any admission of guilt or non-guilt by a judge in this case, because that's not even close to what the lawsuit will be seeking. That's not a case a judge would even take on.

 

From Tom's perspective, he thinks he provided whatever records the Wells team requested, and then he destroyed his phone for whatever reason he wants to justify, right or wrong. Its absolutely too "convenient" for everyone's liking, mine included, and I think he did it for the exact same reasons as everyone else.

 

BUT... my point is the same as every other analyst I've heard today... the whole "destroying of the phone" aspect of this case is primarily just fodder for the public. A legal system likely won't care, and the only real "value" it adds to the process was a reaffirmation of Goodell upholding the suspension (likely to occur anyway) and the public saying "ah ha... GUILTY" when they get more suspicious evidence.

 

This is way past the part of the investigation where we are still trying to figure out who done it and why they did it. We're at the stages of the process where the question remaining is "how in the World did the NFL come to this conclusion on this punishment".

 

However, one of the arguments in the PA lawsuit is that the punishment is unreasonable (this is why Peterson's suspension was reduced, and you've been arguing on the fringes of this). The destruction of evidence is certainly relevant to the fact that Brady's actions were beyond simple "failure to cooperate" and whether or not the egregiousness of spoliation of evidence (again, an action without precedence) justifies upholding the 4 game suspension.

[January J]

This is way past the part of the investigation where we are still trying to figure out who done it and why they did it. We're at the stages of the process where the question remaining is "how in the World did the NFL come to this conclusion on this punishment".

and I just answered that. To sum it up rather simply the answer is spygate.

[rmcjacket23]

and I just answered that. To sum it up rather simply the answer is spygate.

No, the answer isn't SpyGate, because we're not talking about punishing the Patriots... we're talking about punishing Brady. They are two completely different things.

 

Tom Brady had zero role in SpyGate, so if you're attempting to come down harsher on him because of something he had nothing to do with, now the NFLPA really has a much better argument on their hands.

 

That's simply not the case here. The punishment on the Patriots was harsh because of SpyGate. The punishment on Brady is harsh for some reason I still haven't quite wrapped my head around yet. My theory mostly involves another reaction to the reaction and blaming most of this on Ray Rice and how poorly the NFL handled that, meaning the last possible scenario they ever want again is coming down too light on a punishment that the media destroys them for it. But in this case, I think they simply went overboard as a reaction to the beating they've been taking in the last 18 months or so.

[January J]

1. Actually, it is a standard equipment violation. The rule they violed is a standard equipment rule. That's not up for debate. Its been amplified into something more than that primarily because 1. Its the Patriots, who the public hates for a variety of valid and invalid reasons and 2. Its not the first time they've been caught cheating. Putting footballs in an oven and deflating them are both fully done with the intent of doctoring the balls to their own benefit, a violation of the rules. Nobody cared about the previous incident, because the Vikings, a typically mediocre team, were doing it. No different than the outrage over the Falcons pumping crowd noise into a stadium for multiple seasons gets like 1% of the response that this story does, even when the entire spirit of doing that is again for a competitive advantage, aka cheating.

2. No, this is why you would never ben commissioner. No reasonable Commissioner issues a punishment based on "well they've probably been doing it for years". There is ZERO indication that was even a remote consideration in this case, nor should it have been. If you want to see a Commissioner get fired by his bosses, go down the path of issuing punishment based on completely hypotheticals and guessing, which is what that notion is.

3. Remember, in my scenario, the punishments are harsher. We went from a typical rule violation fine (which the Vikings only got a stern warning, not even a fine) to a much larger fine and loss of at least one draft pick. That's a pretty major increase in punishment for an organization if you ask me, and you already agreed to that yourself.

What my scenario does is simply eliminate most of the arbitrary crap that has come afterwards. There is no interrogation room where I waltz players, coaches, interns, etc. in and out and spend months and millions of dollars trying to gather evidence to determine whether or not footballs were deflated by more than pound. Thats a waste of 100% of the peoples time.

You yourself have acknowledged that the punishment is largely based on lying and lack of cooperation. Under my scenario, neither of those are a problem, because I simply don't care who is responsible. I don't care about the "no he did it" finger pointing that inevitably comes from that, or the hundreds of people who act surprised and in denial. I simply determine that the footballs were deflated beyond a reasonable standard, and issue a organizational punishment, as has been done in previous instances.

There is no lying, because there's nothing to lie about, because there is no inquisition. There's nothing to fail to cooperate with, other than you attempting to appeal my ruling, which no organization would, because they care less than I do.

I just saved us six months of embarrassment, millions of dollars, and becoming a laughing stock in the media and the public. And my "shield", the only thing I really care about, is in the same shape it was before the incident happened. There's no sponsors or media beating down my door for a more severe punishment, because they didn't know how to react to the initial infraction anyway.

1) I just stated why nobody cares about the previous incidents. It didn't occur on the championship, they weren't habitual offenders, and they cooperated.

2) I never said anything about what I would do as commissioner bc I already know that I would not be qualified. And I wasn't basing that off of the notion "they've probably been doing it for years"

I'm basing it off of they HAVE done something similar and after spygate occurred it was said that if another incident occurred a harsher punishment would be delivered. If that's not a good enough reason I don't know what is. That's not a hypothetical and has nothing to do with guessing.

3) you can't just be that lackadaisical. A thorough investigation HAS to be done in order to get to the bottom of who exactly did it, and more importantly, how long has this been going on? Without interviewing anybody you have no clue how many other times did they pull this off and what other possible violations they got away with. A lot of this was unneccessary I agree- but mostly bc Brady and company did not cooperate. Had he simply did what he was asked all of this gets avoided. But obviously he bucked back for a reason, and that reason is bc he has something to hide. Who knows somewhere on those texts there could have been something that implicated bellichek- resulting in a possible banishment.

Edited July 29, 2015 by January J

[The Mom Gene]

No, the answer isn't SpyGate, because we're not talking about punishing the Patriots... we're talking about punishing Brady. They are two completely different things.

 

Tom Brady had zero role in SpyGate, so if you're attempting to come down harsher on him because of something he had nothing to do with, now the NFLPA really has a much better argument on their hands.

 

That's simply not the case here. The punishment on the Patriots was harsh because of SpyGate. The punishment on Brady is harsh for some reason I still haven't quite wrapped my head around yet. My theory mostly involves another reaction to the reaction and blaming most of this on Ray Rice and how poorly the NFL handled that, meaning the last possible scenario they ever want again is coming down too light on a punishment that the media destroys them for it. But in this case, I think they simply went overboard as a reaction to the beating they've been taking in the last 18 months or so.

But the whole premise of punishing the Patriots with the $1M fine, the 1 round draft pick in 2016, and the latter round draft picks the subsequent year were accepted completely by the organization as a whole.  Brady is the one fighting this...  The Organization has already pleaded out, and accepted the ramifications.

[rmcjacket23]

But the whole premise of punishing the Patriots with the $1M fine, the 1 round draft pick in 2016, and the latter round draft picks the subsequent year were accepted completely by the organization as a whole.  Brady is the one fighting this...  The Organization has already pleaded out, and accepted the ramifications.

Correct, they have. Why is that relevant to Brady though?

 

He's fighting it, obviously, because of a combination of him apparently not thinking he did anything wrong, and the fact that his punishment is far worse than what the organization got.

 

If you believe what Kraft said today, he accepted the punishment as a sort of perceived "plea agreement" that the NFL would reduce Brady's suspension, which even a game or two more with Brady is worth a first round pick and some money by a long shot to that organization.

[berad]

Correct, they have. Why is that relevant to Brady though?

 

He's fighting it, obviously, because of a combination of him apparently not thinking he did anything wrong, and the fact that his punishment is far worse than what the organization got.

 

If you believe what Kraft said today, he accepted the punishment as a sort of perceived "plea agreement" that the NFL would reduce Brady's suspension, which even a game or two more with Brady is worth a first round pick and some money by a long shot to that organization.

 

Well that was dumb of him.

[rmcjacket23]

1) I just stated why nobody cares about the previous incidents. It didn't occur on the championship, they weren't habitual offenders, and they cooperated.

2) I never said anything about what I would do as commissioner bc I already know that I would not be qualified. And I wasn't basing that off of the notion "they've probably been doingvit god years"

I'm basing it off of they HAVE done something similar and after spygate occurred it was said that if another incident occurred a harsher punishment would be delivered. If that's not a good enough reason I don't know what is. That's not a hypothetical and has nothing to do with guessing.

3) you can't just be that lackadaisical. A thorough investigation HAS to be done in order to get to the bottom of who exactly did it, and now importantly, how long has this been going on? Without interviewing anybody you have no clue how many other times did they pull this off and what other possible violations they got away with. A lot of this was unneccessary I agree- but mostly bc Brady and company did not cooperate. Had he simply did what he was asked all of this gets avoided. But obviously he bucked back for a reason, and that reason is bc he has something to hide. Who knows somewhere on those texts there could have been something that implicated bellichek- resulting in a possible banishment.

1. The Championship argument is rather flimsy at best. If that were the case, there's no explanation for why Brady was allowed to play in the SB to begin with. A AFC championship game equipment violation doesn't trump a regular season equipment violation by the 80th power, which is essentially whats happening here. Tom Brady himself isn't a habitual offender at all, so that holds zero weight, and the cooperation aspect doesn't come into play until you actually start investigating, which as I said, is largely a waste of time to begin with.

 

2. A harsher punishment was delivered to the Patriots. We've already established this. A harsher punishment wasn't delivered to Brady based on any past events, because he wasn't apart of those, so that doesn't apply here. His punishment is solely based on the events that transpired in 2015.

 

3. Actually, you can be that lax. The NFL has done that. Where was the thorough investigation to get to the bottom of who put the footballs in the oven for the Vikings? Where was the thorough interrogation there? Where was the thorough investigation when the Chargers doctored footballs a few years ago?

 

The answer is... there wasn't. Yet somehow, the NFL was stable able to adjunicate a punishment in that regards. But how can that be, if everything requires a thorough investigation? An investigation into whether or not the Patriots deflated footballs on that game isn't going to yield anything about prior games or future games, because that's not even what they're investigating. I have no idea where you came up with this notion that the NFL is investigating the Patriots for every game they ever played for deflated footballs, because they are not. They could have found texts from five years ago that showed Tom asking for the balls to be deflated, and it wouldn't have mattered, because they didn't even have the balls.

 

When the NFL fines the Vikings for heating footballs... do you honestly believe they are investigating how long they've been doing it, how many times they did it previously, etc.? LOL, of course not. They've got far better things to do than that.

[rmcjacket23]

Well that was dumb of him.

Knowing what we know now, very much so.

 

Of course, that could very well come back to hurt the NFL at some in the future too, so there's that.

[January J]

No, the answer isn't SpyGate, because we're not talking about punishing the Patriots... we're talking about punishing Brady. They are two completely different things.

Tom Brady had zero role in SpyGate, so if you're attempting to come down harsher on him because of something he had nothing to do with, now the NFLPA really has a much better argument on their hands.

That's simply not the case here. The punishment on the Patriots was harsh because of SpyGate. The punishment on Brady is harsh for some reason I still haven't quite wrapped my head around yet. My theory mostly involves another reaction to the reaction and blaming most of this on Ray Rice and how poorly the NFL handled that, meaning the last possible scenario they ever want again is coming down too light on a punishment that the media destroys them for it. But in this case, I think they simply went overboard as a reaction to the beating they've been taking in the last 18 months or so.

I do think that the Ray rice fiasco played a large role in tom Brady's punishment. No argument there.

[January J]

No, the answer isn't SpyGate, because we're not talking about punishing the Patriots... we're talking about punishing Brady. They are two completely different things.

Tom Brady had zero role in SpyGate, so if you're attempting to come down harsher on him because of something he had nothing to do with, now the NFLPA really has a much better argument on their hands.

That's simply not the case here. The punishment on the Patriots was harsh because of SpyGate. The punishment on Brady is harsh for some reason I still haven't quite wrapped my head around yet. My theory mostly involves another reaction to the reaction and blaming most of this on Ray Rice and how poorly the NFL handled that, meaning the last possible scenario they ever want again is coming down too light on a punishment that the media destroys them for it. But in this case, I think they simply went overboard as a reaction to the beating they've been taking in the last 18 months or so.

I'm confused .. Is tom Brady not a member of the new England patriots ? If he didn't like the stigma that came along with that , he should have requested a trade or not resigned.

"They could have found texts from five years ago that showed Tom asking for the balls to be deflated, and it wouldn't have mattered, because they didn't even have the balls."

Yes I believe it would have mattered and would have been factored into the punishment. Doing something one time is a lot diffrent than getting away with something for years. And if they would have the texts - doesn't matter if they had the balls bc that would be proof. They generally wouldn't find out if it's been done before because it's next to impossible to prove it. But obviously this case is a little diffrent, bc it's about finding who ordered the code red, him not cooperating , McNally going into the bathroom after the balls had been inspected, the breaking of the phone, the science theories, and several other stipulations and factors.unfortunatly it's just not as simple as balls being heated.

Edited July 29, 2015 by January J

[rmcjacket23]

I'm confused .. Is tom Brady not a member of the new England patriots ? If he didn't like the stigma that came along with that , he should have requested a trade or not resigned.

Yup, he is. So you're saying that every member of the New England Patriots should forever be branded as a multiple-time cheater, regardless of their involvement in any of the cases or not?

 

In all seriousness, do you actually believe that Tom Brady is being punished harshly by the NFL because the NFL thinks he's a repeat offender as a cheater? You would literally be the very first person on this planet I've heard suggest that he should be.

 

The Patriots organization is being treated as a repeat offender, hence the large fine and loss of a draft pick for something that apparently 2-3 people did completely on their own (including two people who would generously be described as "non-essential personnel").

 

Tom Brady isn't being treated as a repeat offender of anything. He's being treated as a cheater who lied and didn't cooperate. 

[January J]

Yup, he is. So you're saying that every member of the New England Patriots should forever be branded as a multiple-time cheater, regardless of their involvement in any of the cases or not?

In all seriousness, do you actually believe that Tom Brady is being punished harshly by the NFL because the NFL thinks he's a repeat offender as a cheater? You would literally be the very first person on this planet I've heard suggest that he should be.

The Patriots organization is being treated as a repeat offender, hence the large fine and loss of a draft pick for something that apparently 2-3 people did completely on their own (including two people who would generously be described as "non-essential personnel").

Tom Brady isn't being treated as a repeat offender of anything. He's being treated as a cheater who lied and didn't cooperate.

no they shouldn't be branded as a cheater- but they should be held to a higher standard if cheating occurs again. They shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt and they should be subject to harsher penalties(which evidentally roger Goodell enforced) If they don't like that they can find another team. Another thing is Brady was also the quarterback during spygate and directly benefitted from it as opposed to a rookie or free agent that just came in. So yes I absolutely believe he should be treated that way. Edited July 29, 2015 by January J

[rmcjacket23]

no they shouldn't be branded as a cheater- but they should be held to a higher standard if cheating occurs again. If they don't like that they can find another team. Another thing is Brady was also the quarterback during spygate and directly benefitted from it as opposed to a rookie or free agent that just came in. So yes I absolutely believe he should be treated that way.

How about the draft picks that have zero choice where they play? Let me guess... "sorry guys, tough luck".

 

This is all moot, again, because that's not what's happening here. No reasonable person thinks the NFL is dumb enough to punish somebody for something that didn't involve them. Tens of thousands of people directly benefited from SpyGate, and most of them are just as responsible for SpyGate as Brady is. The whole notion is laughable, and needless to say, its certainly in the NFL's best interest if they NOT punish somebody as a repeat offender who isn't actually a repeat offender.

 

Not the kind of thing you want to be saying in a court of law, that's for sure.

[January J]

How about the draft picks that have zero choice where they play? Let me guess... "sorry guys, tough luck".

This is all moot, again, because that's not what's happening here. No reasonable person thinks the NFL is dumb enough to punish somebody for something that didn't involve them. Tens of thousands of people directly benefited from SpyGate, and most of them are just as responsible for SpyGate as Brady is. The whole notion is laughable, and needless to say, its certainly in the NFL's best interest if they NOT punish somebody as a repeat offender who isn't actually a repeat offender.

Not the kind of thing you want to be saying in a court of law, that's for sure.

that's the thing, this isn't a court of law. This is the NFL. And all 32 teams know what article 46 means.

If the draft picks are on their best behavior they have nothing to worry about. Brady was obviously behind this so he gets punished accordingly .

[rmcjacket23]

that's the thing, this isn't a court of law. This is the NFL. And all 32 teams know what article 46 means.

If the draft picks are on their best behavior they have nothing to worry about. Brady was obviously behind this so he gets punished accordingly .

Correct, he gets punished as a cheater and liar, not as a repeat cheater from spygate.

[harfordravenfan]

And if Brady does file a lawsuit against the nfl he would be required to testify- so it could potentially lead to perjury if further evidence leaks. However now it's said that the phones were destroyed , so it's next to impossible for the texts to recovered if they were sent from a burner. Which makes him look even more extremely guilty- but eliminates another chance for the smoking gun.

Wonder if the ball boy would be honest once called as a witness? You would assume he'd be brought in to testify