[News] Late For Work 7/22: NFL Front Office Executives Rank Joe Flacco

[Ravensfan23]

Well, you can argue that statistics are also a product of team. No RB can run without blockers in front of him. No QB can complete passes without a line protecting him and a receiver catching the ball. No receiver can catch a pass without a QB throwing it to him. 

 

So, both statistics and winning can be used to support a players value and both can be discredited if you want to argue about the player's circumstances.

Winning being a team stat and and yards, TDs completion percentage etc not being viewed as team stats is the silliest argument ever imo. If Football is the "ultimate team sport" wouldn't everything then be team related? Comparisons are so pointless to me because nobody ever deals with the same exact circumstances. But i guess that's a part of being a fan.

[Ravens4Real]

People just flat out make stuff up to discredit Flacco. Not one of the "top tier" qbs has ever carried his team with less help than Flacco. And when Flacco puts up better postseason numbers than all of them, they credit his receivers????? As far as that goes, he's done more with less help than all the "top tier" qbs. Would any of those execs take Torrey Smith over Moss, Gronk, Antonio Brown, Jimmy Smith, Wayne, Harrison, or Thomas? No. The Ravens have invested far less in their receiving corps than any of those teams with a "top tier" qb, yet Flacco has been better than all of them when it counts the most, and he has won more than any of them since he's been in the league, with and without a great defense.

Sorry to be the Debbie Downer, but you are just flat wrong that Flacco has been better than everyone in the top tier.

What is the point to a football season? To win the Super Bowl, most would say. Flacco has only got the Ravens to one of them. At the end of the day, who cares if the Ravens made the playoffs 6 out of 7 years? To me, that says that they have only been able to meet their goal 1 out of 6 times. Now I know most of you will say "Well at least the Ravens are there and have a chance to win it". I am speaking in total hindsight but which scenario is better. Winning it once every say about 8 years and the rest of the seasons not making the playoffs/getting a better draft position? Or making it all the times the Ravens did and only getting there once? Like I said, this is purely hindsight since we all know the outcome that happened, but I would rather have the team that got better draft pics, at the end of the day. Like the old saying goes, if you aren't first, you're last.

But getting back to what you said about Flacco being better than everyone in tier 1. Tom Brady has 4 Super Bowl rings and what 6 or 7 appearances? How in the hell could you possibly say Flacco is better than that? Rodgers also led his team to 1 SB and has WAYYYY better stats than Flacco. Big Ben has been to 3 SB's and has won 2. Brees, I believe he has won 1 also along with Manning. This along with all of these guys having way better stats than him. Like I said earlier, does it really matter if we make it to the playoffs and can't come through in the end? (Obviously it is a team game and it wasn't always Flacco's fault)

To summarize, Flacco is placed right where he belongs. He has had many opportunities to get to tier 1 but has not capitalized on winning another Super Bowl.

[RavensBaltimore]

Correct, hence why there is differences in statistical production just as easily as there are differences in W/L record.

 

Hence, why the players in tier 1, by most accounts, consistently do both. Aaron Rodgers consistently puts up great statistics, and when he's on the field, his team consistently wins football games. Same for guys like Brady, Manning, etc.

No, Brady never put up big stats without Moss or Gronk. Brees never put up big stats in Cam's offense. Look at the stats:

 

Brady's last season without Moss or Gronk:

 

16 games, 3,529 yds, 24 tds, 12 ints

 

Brees' last season with Cam:

 

16 games, 3,576yds, 24 tds, 15 ints

 

Flacco's numbers last year are better than both of them across the board, and that was despite leading the league in lost yds due to dropped passes. That proves that the "top tier" qb's don't carry a team without more help, and they don't put up big stats without a qb friendly system.

 

 

Its based on what they've actually done, not what they could have done if they had the same OC every year or if Calvin Johnson played for the Ravens.

Exactly. And what Flacco actually has done is win at a historical level in his first 7 years and put up historically great playoff stats with a mediocre receiving corps. ONLY A TOP TIER QB CAN DO THAT. Whether it's stats or wins, you can't just look at numbers. You have to actually watch the games to evaluate talent, and you have to consider all the circumstances. Other qbs have had "help" from a D and running game. Name 1 other qb in NFL history that has won more games than anyone over a 7 year period, and was on a level all by himself when it comes to playoff greatness, that wasn't considered "top tier".

[TheRavengers]

Listened to the Vinny & Rob show about an hour ago, saying the Ravens are either 11-5 or 12-4 for the year. To me that sounds about right, given how everything is playing out so far.

[balfan23]

Correct, hence why there is differences in statistical production just as easily as there are differences in W/L record.

 

Hence, why the players in tier 1, by most accounts, consistently do both. Aaron Rodgers consistently puts up great statistics, and when he's on the field, his team consistently wins football games. Same for guys like Brady, Manning, etc.

 

The aspect holding Joe outside of the "tier 1" of QBs is that great statistical production, just like the things holding guys like Romo and Ryan (who have the statistical production) out of the "tier 1" of QBs is likely the W/L record and/or lack of postseason success.

 

Tier 1 QBs have both the pretty consistent great statistical production, along with the consistent on-field success of their teams. They pretty much clearly outlined the rationale for their choices, and I have no issue with them, just like they clearly outlined their rationale for Joe being in tier 2, and again, I have no issue with it.

 

I understand the desire to explain the lack of great statistical production from Joe via any method you choose, with the most prevalent likely being the lack of a consistent OC and/or lack of consistent high-end receivers. All valid points, except this isn't a poll that was taken to project QBs based on what they would do under optimal conditions. Its based on what they've actually done, not what they could have done if they had the same OC every year or if Calvin Johnson played for the Ravens.

I agree with basically all you have said here. To be clear, I have no issue with Joe being ranked as a Tier 2 QB and agree with your rationale in why all the QBs listed are in their prospective tiers. If there is one that may be incorrectly categorized using your stated criteria would be Luck. The reason he gets put into Tier 1 is because he passes the eye test with flying colors and people are in love with his potential. However, he has yet to take his team to that next level beyond the truly elite teams of the AFC in the playoffs. 

 

In the end, if people just look at the Tier 2 list, that's nothing to be ashamed of. I think most here understand that we should be pretty darn happy we've got Joe, that he's a major part of what has to be considered a very successful franchise since he joined the team and that there a lot of teams that wish they had a guy like Joe on their roster. 

[RavensBaltimore]

Sorry to be the Debbie Downer, but you are just flat wrong that Flacco has been better than everyone in the top tier.

What is the point to a football season? To win the Super Bowl, most would say. Flacco has only got the Ravens to one of them. At the end of the day, who cares if the Ravens made the playoffs 6 out of 7 years? To me, that says that they have only been able to meet their goal 1 out of 6 times. Now I know most of you will say "Well at least the Ravens are there and have a chance to win it". I am speaking in total hindsight but which scenario is better. Winning it once every say about 8 years and the rest of the seasons not making the playoffs/getting a better draft position? Or making it all the times the Ravens did and only getting there once? Like I said, this is purely hindsight since we all know the outcome that happened, but I would rather have the team that got better draft pics, at the end of the day. Like the old saying goes, if you aren't first, you're last.

But getting back to what you said about Flacco being better than everyone in tier 1. Tom Brady has 4 Super Bowl rings and what 6 or 7 appearances? How in the hell could you possibly say Flacco is better than that? Rodgers also led his team to 1 SB and has WAYYYY better stats than Flacco. Big Ben has been to 3 SB's and has won 2. Brees, I believe he has won 1 also along with Manning. This along with all of these guys having way better stats than him. Like I said earlier, does it really matter if we make it to the playoffs and can't come through in the end? (Obviously it is a team game and it wasn't always Flacco's fault)

To summarize, Flacco is placed right where he belongs. He has had many opportunities to get to tier 1 but has not capitalized on winning another Super Bowl.

Nobody has won more than 1 SB since Flacco has been in the league, and I said Flacco was better than all of them in the postseason, and Aaron Rodgers does not have "WAYYY" better stats in the postseason than Joe. Joe has better postseason stats than anyone in the league since entering his prime. 24tds, 4ints since 2010. And judging qbs strictly by how many SBs they have won would mean Trent Dilfer is better than Dan Marino, so that shows how flawed that logic is. Flacco has consistently given his team a better chance to win the SB than anyone over the last 5 years. Even when he has lost, he has thrown perfect passes in clutch situations that were dropped, and last year he led his team to two 14 point leads. If someone drops a pass or if the secondary has 6 players out, that's out of his control, and it's one of the reasons why it's so ridiculous to say that he's need more help. That argument could have held up in his first 2 seasons, but not in the last 5.

[January J]

I could probably easily tear this apart, especially the parts where you are referencing players who are high draft picks but never actually played like a high draft pick (see Trent Richardson... did you actually think that was good for your argument?), and the parts where you're referencing Pro-Bowl players who weren't even close to Pro-Bowl players with other QBs, but the reality is, you're arguing something that is literally impossible to argue and impossible to prove.

You're essentially making the case that WRs make QBs, something that has been argued since the beginning of time and has never once actually been definitively proven or disproven, nor has the other side of the argument. Is Joe Montana a great QB without Jerry Rice? Don't know, can't possibly know.

The reality is its probably somewhere in between. Are Dallas Clark and Emmanuel Sanders Pro-Bowl level players without Peyton Manning throwing passes to them? Hard to tell, but probably not. Is Wes Welker a Pro-Bowl player without catching passes from Brady and Manning? Hard to tell, but probably not. Is Reggie Bush a Pro-Bowl player without Drew Brees?

didn't he just say he was being silly? Why so serious?

Anyway, I think this is the year that flacco moves up quite a bit in the ranks. Yeah yeah I know, fans are always saying "this is the year", but if you look at it objectively, joe finally has some weapons at his disposal(first round receiver, 2nd round tight end) along with SSS and several other talented guys. We have a respectable running game , and a top Notch offensive line still intact from last year. Pair all of this with the arrival of trestman- who is known as being somewhat "pass happy", now is the time for joe to put up some real numbers and start gaining the recognition he deserves from not only analysts, but in the "fantasy" perspective as well.

[RavenManiac#7]

Best of the Best= RAY LEWIS ALL DAY LONG. Ed Reed may well have been the best free safety Ever. But, it doesn't matter. RAY LEWIS is the best Ravens player of all time by a Very wide margin. There's nobody else that's even Close to being in the same ball park. RAY LEWIS is probably the best MLB to ever play the game. There's only a couple that even come to mind that could even be considered to be compared to him, but he was definitely the best. He is the one that everyone else is, and will be, compared to. That, in itself, says it all. Kind of like Johnny Unitas. He's always been the QB others were measured against. That really does say it all.

[RavenManiac#7]

I'm actually glad that Pitta is most likely done. I say that Only out of concern for his health because I am/was one of his biggest fans. I've said on here numerous times that it would pain me to see him go down again like the last time, with No contact, just from trying to plant his foot to make a cut. Please, Dennis, for your own good, collect your paycheck this season and then go home to your family. And as for Max Williams, I believe it's going to take time. He'll be a good TE, but it IS going to take time.

[RAVENSNAYSHUN]

Putting Luck as a Top Tier QB is laughable... and whatelse is laughable are some of the other QBs ranked ahead of Flacco

Edited July 22, 2015 by RAVENSNAYSHUN

[rmcjacket23]

Putting Luck as a Top Tier QB is laughable... and whatelse is laughable are some of the other QBs ranked ahead of Flacco

Well, the statistics and postseason success certainly suggest Luck belongs in that group. He's doing things that QBs 3 years into the league just flat out aren't supposed to be able to do.

[RavensBaltimore]

But again, that's an explanation/excuse, not a valid reason for a ranking. You're explaining why Joe isn't ranked as high, but it doesn't matter, because no intelligent person is going to put together a QB ranking based on a purely "what if" scenario that involves allowing every QB in the league to play with precisely the exact same WRs as every other QB.

 

You can't just say "well because the Ravens haven't given Joe elite WRs to throw to, I'm going to rank him above the guys who are statistically better and have essentially won just as much or close to it". If you're going to rank QBs that way, then just skip right to the end and rank every single QB based on W/L record.

 

You could do that, of course, but for me its just incredibly short-sighted, because there's just far too much more incorporated into QB play than what the scoreboard says at the end of the game.

I'm not doing that at all. It has nothing to do with a "what if" situation. I'm strictly ranking Joe based on what I've seen him actually do. The mistake you are making is going strictly by numbers. I'm not ranking Joe based on "what his numbers would be if he had elite receivers." I'm ranking him based on what he already has done without them. He doesn't get easy completions all the time like Brady. He needs to and does make passes on a consistent basis with an extremely high degree of difficulty, that only an elite passer could make, and he is a great leader, shows poise, and elevates his own and his team's play in the biggest situations. Since football is a single elimination sport in the postseason, how a player performs in those big games is a huge part of how great they are.

 

With Brady, if you take away his short, easy completions, he is awful, which is why he has crumbled in the playoffs for the last decade until last year, when he got to face a bunch of backups. With Joe, he has no weaknesses. He can make every throw at an elite level, and he's tough to confuse or rattle. Numbers can't show that, so if you're just going by numbers, Joe lacks the regular season stats to be top tier, but when you actually watch him play, and consider all the circumstances, there's no way anyone could do what he does without being top tier.

[rmcjacket23]

didn't he just say he was being silly? Why so serious?

Anyway, I think this is the year that flacco moves up quite a bit in the ranks. Yeah yeah I know, fans are always saying "this is the year", but if you look at it objectively, joe finally has some weapons at his disposal(first round receiver, 2nd round tight end) along with SSS and several other talented guys. We have a respectable running game , and a top Notch offensive line still intact from last year. Pair all of this with the arrival of trestman- who is known as being somewhat "pass happy", now is the time for joe to put up some real numbers and start gaining the recognition he deserves from not only analysts, but in the "fantasy" perspective as well.

Still remains to be seen.

 

Really have no idea what our WR core is capable of quite honestly. We think SSS is good, but he's getting older and the team wants his role to be reduced. You've got a rookie WR who appears somewhat raw and at a position where rookies typically struggle to make impact, and you've got a bunch of unknowns in Aiken and Brown who appear somewhat talented but have never stepped up into a bigger role.

 

Also remains to be seen whether going "pass happy" under Trestman will really make him a better QB, both from a team standpoint and from a stats standpoint. The last time this team went "pass happy", things just simply don't go that well for Joe, and most people that have watched him play would easily say he's much more efficient and overall better when he's got a more balanced offense to work with. We expect our team will be able to run the ball fine, but we don't know for certain.

[1/28/01]

How is this unfair to Joe? Its spot on and right where he belongs in my opinion. Hes a regular season "so so" guy who turns it up during the playoffs.

[jrock6587]

Wait a minute experts, Luck, Rivers and Romo haven't won a Superbowl ring, Peyton, Breese, Rogers, and Wilson have one. These guys are ahead of Joe. Joe's so inconsistent during the regular season that he keeps putting his team in the playoff. He's won more playoff games than Luck, Romo, Rivers, and Wilson. Us fans don't care what tier you put him on. He's winner no matter what. He's 1st tier here in Baltimore.

[Tru11]

other then tony romo is quite agree with the ranking.

 

seems pretty good ranking and if flacco keeps improving he will go up some more.

[Purple Dawg 96]

This will be the season Joe shake all them Haters off! This team was one bad pass away from greatness and it was only the beginning! This will be Joe's best season as a Raven!

[NCMan]

Hmmmm....I keep looking all over to find a place that shows a QB's W/L record. Funny.....it doesn't exist!!

[Bohica5]

Pitta is a goner.......TY for that!.....please don't sign with the browns just to play again dennis......On the qb issue i think they got it right except for p manning in the top 5.....that is ridiculousness, manning is a 3rd tier qb at best anymore......joe loses and plays uninspired against teams that we are suppose to Crush.....and yes i watch every play just like you.....The effort just isn't there unless its a playoff game which is inexcusable at the Pro level.....and now he's got money in his pocket i really don't see him trying any harder.........Maybe trade bait in a year or 2 for joe!! No Excuses this year flacco.......

[edreed2o]

And they fail to mention our receivers drop rate!

[Ngataninch]

I'll just be happy when the Dennis Pitta saga is over... Hopefully he can contribute to another winning team, but if not I'll feel a little relief when he finally calls it quits.

[rmcjacket23]

Wait a minute experts, Luck, Rivers and Romo haven't won a Superbowl ring, Peyton, Breese, Rogers, and Wilson have one. These guys are ahead of Joe. Joe's so inconsistent during the regular season that he keeps putting his team in the playoff. He's won more playoff games than Luck, Romo, Rivers, and Wilson. Us fans don't care what tier you put him on. He's winner no matter what. He's 1st tier here in Baltimore.

So does that mean Trent Dilfer stands ahead of Dan Marino?

[RavenManiac#7]

I am just SO tired of hearing All the arguments against, and criticism of, and ratings of Joe Flacco. All I know is that ever since Joe got to Baltimore, the Ravens have not had to shop for a starting QB. Once, yes, Once he failed to get us into the playoffs. And even that, is really immaterial to some extent since football is such a team game. I don't care if Joe is elite or not. I don't care if Joe Ever throws for 4,000 yards in a season. I don't care what "tier" people want to put him in. All I care about is how effectively he leads our offense. And, apparently, he's done that pretty darn well. His playoff records that he holds pretty much proves that. I guarantee you that there are an awful lot of teams who would prefer having Joe as their QB rather than who they do have. Joe Flacco is, by far, the best QB this franchise has ever had, and he has allowed our FO to concentrate on looking for everything But a franchise QB. So, all the "talking heads" can say whatever they want. I'm just Very happy that Joe Flacco is the starting QB for the Baltimore Ravens. PERIOD!

[rmcjacket23]

Wait a minute experts, Luck, Rivers and Romo haven't won a Superbowl ring, Peyton, Breese, Rogers, and Wilson have one. These guys are ahead of Joe. Joe's so inconsistent during the regular season that he keeps putting his team in the playoff. He's won more playoff games than Luck, Romo, Rivers, and Wilson. Us fans don't care what tier you put him on. He's winner no matter what. He's 1st tier here in Baltimore.

Additionally, not really a good idea to compare Flacco's playoff wins to Wilson/Luck, considering he has about a four year head start. That's like the Steelers fans claiming they're the greatest because they have the most SB wins, yet they got a quarter of century head start on the entire Ravens organization. Duh... I'd expect you to have more wins.

 

For what its worth, Joe had 4 playoff wins in his first three years, Luck has 3, and Wilson has 6 wins in 3 years, including two SB trips and a title.

 

I certainly wouldn't go comparing Flacco's success to Wilson's, because its really not close right now (and its not in favor of Joe).

[respecttheRaven]

Where do they come up with this??!! What do they base it on??!! It's almost comical! 

This is even worse than that list that ranked Joe Flacco as the 20th worst quarterback in the NFL.

Ravens, only 9% chance of making the playoffs!  

    http://russellstreetreport.com/2015/07/22/street-talk/study-ravens-9-chance-to-make-playoffs/

[debbiegrob]

Let Joe Flacco's record speak for itself. He's not worried about his "elite" status and neither are the fans in Baltimore!

[edreed2o]

How is this unfair to Joe? Its spot on and right where he belongs in my opinion. Hes a regular season "so so" guy who turns it up during the playoffs.

Its not about the ranking they put on Joe, its about what they left out of the reason why. They failed to mention Joes cast of receivers and never had a number one receiver like most "elite" QB's have. They left out the drop rate Jor has to deal with over the years and Lee Evans drop that was right in the bread basket. They failed to mention so many things but yet they say our defense carries Joe which is simply untrue. The 2012 season is not an anomoly because joe has been January Joe for a while now. Its not about the ranking.

[runcontrol]

Russel is a better than average QB... He is a perfect balance of a pocket passer and scrabbling... He buys time to pass rather than run..but isn't afraid to pick up yards on the ground... He has been consistent without a great supporting cast of WR's... 3 playoff appearances with back to back Super Bowl appearances... Lets be honest we would be more than happy with that if he was the future of the Franchise... Flacco has never been consistent but what he has over Wilson is his big arm... And ability to take his play to another level... He beat both legendary QB's to win his super bowl.. Wilson split with the pair..plus Wilson benefits from a stiffling Defense... Our defense has let us down this past season.. But this year we should be evenly balance.. The defense should be top notch because the offense should put up points.. Making other teams play from behind..

 

I don't know, I just feel like Russell fell into a perfect situation for him to succeeded.  He plays for a team that has a dominant defense, he has a beast for a running back that has is known to control the game, and he plays on a gimmick offense that is pretty much custom built for his skill level.

 

I have seen him throw too many passes that had no business being complete.  He floats these balls up that should be intercepted or knocked away, but because teams are so worried about him or Lynch running the ball the DB is completely out of place to make a play

 

Just watch the first Green Bay game and than the playoff game.  In the first game the Packers defense didn't stick to their receivers and they got burnt.  But in the playoff game the changed things around and got 4 interceptions and should have won that game.  Seattle's defense kept that in the game and despite the fact that Russell looked like garbage 75% of the game he got all the credit for that win.  

[FloridalovesRavens]

I dare say that there are teams in the NFL that would give their eye teeth to have Joe so put that in your pipe and smoke it. We have a guy that just gets better with age. These so-called experts chap my butt lol.

[TXRavensFan]

I don't know, I just feel like Russell fell into a perfect situation for him to succeeded.  He plays for a team that has a dominant defense, he has a beast for a running back that has is known to control the game, and he plays on a gimmick offense that is pretty much custom built for his skill level.

 

I have seen him throw too many passes that had no business being complete.  He floats these balls up that should be intercepted or knocked away, but because teams are so worried about him or Lynch running the ball the DB is completely out of place to make a play

 

Just watch the first Green Bay game and than the playoff game.  In the first game the Packers defense didn't stick to their receivers and they got burnt.  But in the playoff game the changed things around and got 4 interceptions and should have won that game.  Seattle's defense kept that in the game and despite the fact that Russell looked like garbage 75% of the game he got all the credit for that win.  

 

What I find interesting is that the main criticisms of Flacco are even more true when applied to Wilson (depends on defense and a strong running game, inconsistent, doesn't put up great individual passing stats, etc). Thus, I am always amused when these lists put Wilson above Flacco. Granted, Wilson is off to a quicker start when it comes to the post-season, but Joe has demonstrated the ability to put his team on his back and ride his arm to a championship. Who knows, maybe Wilson is capable of doing so in the future, but as of now he hasn't had to (if ever the Dilfer analogy is appropriate in terms of what a QB is asked to do - not in terms of talent - it is with Wilson). This also brings attention to the fact that Joe has sustained this level of success for a much longer period than has Wilson, which should also merit consideration.