[News] Late For Work 7/17: Refreshing Not To Hear This Joe Flacco Critique All Summer

[TXRavensFan]

Folks hating on my comment about Flacco not working out with his receivers is hilarious. But I played ball a long time. It's the truth.

 

Those workouts are usually a few hours over one weekend in the off season. Color me skeptical that a few hours playing a glorified game of catch has any influence on chemistry once the pads come on and the receivers have defenders in their faces.

Edited July 18, 2015 by TXRavensFan

[Ugly Ball]

well, if the issue of Flacco not spending extra time with his receivers was dead, thanks for trying to revive it, Zrebiec. What would have refreshing to hear is YOU not bringing it up again.

I like how you think Sami ! Edited July 18, 2015 by Moderator 3

[Tru11]

Why are we still talking about Houston's salary? With Dumervil involved? They are two different players, Dumervil is part time, Houston full time but get this, I would take a Dumervil/Upshaw combo any day over Houston. Let's compare, shall we? Houston played 1,033 snaps last year, got 22 sacks. Dumervil played 603 snaps, got 17 sacks. Houston got 5 more sacks but also played 430 more snaps. Let's average that out, shall we? Houston has 1033 snaps played with 22 sacks which is an average of a sack every 46.9 plays. Dumervil played 603 snaps and had 17 sacks which is a sack every 35.5 plays. Who would you rather have? A player who gets a sack every 35.5 plays or a player who gets a sack every 46.9 plays? Dumervil, on average, is way better than Houston when it comes to sacks and throw in Upshaw as part time to stop runs and we win games. That's why we made the playoffs and KC didn't. Team efforts, not individual, wins games. It's ridiculous comparing salaries when snap count differs widely.

 

those numbers are inaccurate since you are comparing a starter to part time player.

 

if you want to know who is better you should also take into consideration upshaw snap count.

its pretty reasonable to assume that not all of houstons 1033 snaps where spend rushing the passer.

a pretty fair amount he was probably stopping the run or dropping in coverage which most complete OLB do.

example suggs.

 

 

houston 1033 snaps with 22 sacks is a sack every 46.9 plays

doom/upshaw combo 1124 snaps with 17 sacks is a sack  every 66.1 plays.

 

now if you want to truly know who is a better pass rusher on avg you will have to find the stats of how many both spend rushing the passer.

 

PFF probaly has those i think.

[Baltimore Bandwagon]

Gotta love how our beloved .com writers bring up long forgotten about dirty laundry. Way to go, Sarah!

[RavenSwag]

I sure do hope Breshad turns out to our version of Demarius. Its about time that Joe has his big time wideout.

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

Flacco is our QB and thats all that matters. I would not want anyone else behind center. People are always going to talk but they are not always right...

[RavensFootballFan]

those numbers are inaccurate since you are comparing a starter to part time player.

 

if you want to know who is better you should also take into consideration upshaw snap count.

its pretty reasonable to assume that not all of houstons 1033 snaps where spend rushing the passer.

a pretty fair amount he was probably stopping the run or dropping in coverage which most complete OLB do.

example suggs.

 

 

houston 1033 snaps with 22 sacks is a sack every 46.9 plays

doom/upshaw combo 1124 snaps with 17 sacks is a sack  every 66.1 plays.

 

now if you want to truly know who is a better pass rusher on avg you will have to find the stats of how many both spend rushing the passer.

 

PFF probaly has those i think.

 

I had a feeling that someone would try to shoot it down as I had the combo snaps in mind too but using combo is misleading because Upshaw is being asked to set the edge and stop the run first. That precious one or two seconds of Upshaw doing his job on passing plays cost him sacks. There are plenty of plays where opposing teams ran running plays to counter Dumervil/Suggs being on the field. My mentioning a part time player and full time player is the reason that it is unfair and misleading to compare salaries. I still think Dumervil is a much better pass rusher than Houston. Houston has the freedom to sneak through holes while Dumervil has to straight up go through offensive tackles which is much more difficult. Consider that Chiefs played top 15 passing teams 10 times and the Ravens 7 times means Houston saw a lot more passing plays. I am not going to go into PFF any further. I still stand by taking Dumervil/ Upshaw combo over Houston any day, hands down, they win more regular games and playoff games than Houston. 

[Tru11]

I had a feeling that someone would try to shoot it down as I had the combo snaps in mind too but using combo is misleading because Upshaw is being asked to set the edge and stop the run first. That precious one or two seconds of Upshaw doing his job on passing plays cost him sacks. There are plenty of plays where opposing teams ran running plays to counter Dumervil/Suggs being on the field. My mentioning a part time player and full time player is the reason that it is unfair and misleading to compare salaries. I still think Dumervil is a much better pass rusher than Houston. Houston has the freedom to sneak through holes while Dumervil has to straight up go through offensive tackles which is much more difficult. Consider that Chiefs played top 15 passing teams 10 times and the Ravens 7 times means Houston saw a lot more passing plays. I am not going to go into PFF any further. I still stand by taking Dumervil/ Upshaw combo over Houston any day, hands down, they win more regular games and playoff games than Houston. 

 

Houston is being asked to set the edge and stop the run first to lol.

He does not get subbed out for somebody else.

If upshaw was not on the team then Doom would have gotten those edge setting snaps and thus his snap count would have been way higher then it is now and thus his avg would have been much lower.

 

also the chiefs gave up the #2 least passing yards behind only he hawks but gave up the #28 most rush yards which completely debunk your theory that houston had more chances to rush the passer.

 

the ravens however had the #4th best rush defense but when it came to pass defense they where ranked #23.

the team that saw more pass rush snaps would easily be the ravens.

 

what you are doing is counting houston edge setting snaps and drop in coverage snaps as pass rush snaps which is just wrong.

 

Doom portion of snaps he played the run is probably around 10 % of his total snap count while him dropping in coverage would be less then 1%.

 

Houston portion of snaps he played the run is at least 40 % of his total snap count and is probably higher and his snap count dropping in coverage is probably around 10 % of his total snap count.

 

So  for doom you could argue he spend at least 90% of his snaps rushing the passer while for houston its probably closer to 50% of his snaps.

 

the difference in % simply has to do with 1 being a part time pass rush specialist while the other is a every down player.

 

Also im pretty sure teams win games not individual players.

by your logic elam is better then eric berry because elam wins more plays lol

or forsett is better then charles because he wins more games.

heck why not take canty or jernigan over watt since they won more games.

why not take aiken over julio jones while we are at it ....

[RavensFootballFan]

Houston is being asked to set the edge and stop the run first to lol.

He does not get subbed out for somebody else.

If upshaw was not on the team then Doom would have gotten those edge setting snaps and thus his snap count would have been way higher then it is now and thus his avg would have been much lower.

 

also the chiefs gave up the #2 least passing yards behind only he hawks but gave up the #28 most rush yards which completely debunk your theory that houston had more chances to rush the passer.

 

the ravens however had the #4th best rush defense but when it came to pass defense they where ranked #23.

the team that saw more pass rush snaps would easily be the ravens.

 

what you are doing is counting houston edge setting snaps and drop in coverage snaps as pass rush snaps which is just wrong.

 

Doom portion of snaps he played the run is probably around 10 % of his total snap count while him dropping in coverage would be less then 1%.

 

Houston portion of snaps he played the run is at least 40 % of his total snap count and is probably higher and his snap count dropping in coverage is probably around 10 % of his total snap count.

 

So  for doom you could argue he spend at least 90% of his snaps rushing the passer while for houston its probably closer to 50% of his snaps.

 

the difference in % simply has to do with 1 being a part time pass rush specialist while the other is a every down player.

 

Also im pretty sure teams win games not individual players.

by your logic elam is better then eric berry because elam wins more plays lol

or forsett is better then charles because he wins more games.

heck why not take canty or jernigan over watt since they won more games.

why not take aiken over julio jones while we are at it ....

 

 

There were 529 pass attempts against the Chiefs with Houston playing in nearly all of them, there were 584 pass attempts against the Ravens and Doom most likely saw a lot less passing plays because he only played 603 snaps. To say that Doom rushed for 90% of his snaps is far stretch as if teams don't try to trick Ravens with running plays while Doom is in game or try passing plays with Upshaw in the game. Opposing teams plan plays according to who is on the field on the other side and will try to use plays that expose Ravens weakest spots, am sure Upshaw saw plenty of passing plays as teams were gunning for the secondary when injuries tore apart the secondary. Your last paragraph makes no sense to me, bottom line for me no matter how you try to use your logics is that Doom is part time, and Houston is full time and yearly salary comparison is a moot point because of snap counts. To further illustrate Doom is a better player, out of 603 plays, Doom had 17 sacks and 36 total tackles (Assist and Solo), he had his hand in 11.37% of plays. Houston had 22 sacks and 68 tackles which translate into having a hand in 11.47% of plays. Dumervil is 5 years older so it is not realistic for Dumervil to be an every down player, same with Suggs. Speaking of Suggs, Suggs has only 7 less tackles than Houston in nearly 200 less snaps. Houston had just one great year in sacks and all of a sudden, there is salary comparison to Dumervil which is ludicrous because Dumervil and Suggs are both better players than Houston, Houston plays more is why but when using percentages, it is obvious both Dumervil and Suggs are better players. Heck, Ray Lewis used to be an every down player and Lewis was a target from several offensive players and he still gets twice as many tackles as Houston. This whole thing started because our Ravens reporters was trying to make salary comparison bigger than it really is without taking any consideration into account. Dumervil is a better pass rusher without a doubt. 

Edited July 19, 2015 by RavensFootballFan

[Tru11]

There were 529 pass attempts against the Chiefs with Houston playing in nearly all of them, there were 584 pass attempts against the Ravens and Doom most likely saw a lot less passing plays because he only played 603 snaps. To say that Doom rushed for 90% of his snaps is far stretch as if teams don't try to trick Ravens with running plays while Doom is in game or try passing plays with Upshaw in the game. Opposing teams plan plays according to who is on the field on the other side and will try to use plays that expose Ravens weakest spots, am sure Upshaw saw plenty of passing plays as teams were gunning for the secondary when injuries tore apart the secondary. Your last paragraph makes no sense to me, bottom line for me no matter how you try to use your logics is that Doom is part time, and Houston is full time and yearly salary comparison is a moot point because of snap counts. To further illustrate Doom is a better player, out of 603 plays, Doom had 17 sacks and 36 total tackles (Assist and Solo), he had his hand in 11.37% of plays. Houston had 22 sacks and 68 tackles which translate into having a hand in 11.47% of plays. Dumervil is 5 years older so it is not realistic for Dumervil to be an every down player, same with Suggs. Speaking of Suggs, Suggs has only 7 less tackles than Houston in nearly 200 less snaps. Houston had just one great year in sacks and all of a sudden, there is salary comparison to Dumervil which is ludicrous because Dumervil and Suggs are both better players than Houston, Houston plays more is why but when using percentages, it is obvious both Dumervil and Suggs are better players. Heck, Ray Lewis used to be an every down player and Lewis was a target from several offensive players and he still gets twice as many tackles as Houston. This whole thing started because our Ravens reporters was trying to make salary comparison bigger than it really is without taking any consideration into account. Dumervil is a better pass rusher without a doubt. 

 

 you do realise houston % is higher right?

 

so how can you argue doom is better?

 

you also conveniently left out houston cause 2 times as many fumbles as doom?

 

chiefs as a team only saw 529 pass attempts against them which means IF he played all of those snaps he managed to get a sack in every 24 pass attempts on avg

 

ravens like you said saw 584 pass attempts and doom played 603 snaps.

 

in order for doom to present a better avg then houston he would had to get his 17 sacks on 391 pass attempts.

 

now you and everyone should know that doom did not play only 391 of a possible  584 attempts.

 

so this pretty much settles who is the better pass rusher and better player is not even a debate.

an all round every down player who is an all pro is better then a role player.

 

both where pro bowlers...

[RavensFootballFan]

 you do realise houston % is higher right?

 

so how can you argue doom is better?

 

you also conveniently left out houston cause 2 times as many fumbles as doom?

 

chiefs as a team only saw 529 pass attempts against them which means IF he played all of those snaps he managed to get a sack in every 24 pass attempts on avg

 

ravens like you said saw 584 pass attempts and doom played 603 snaps.

 

in order for doom to present a better avg then houston he would had to get his 17 sacks on 391 pass attempts.

 

now you and everyone should know that doom did not play only 391 of a possible  584 attempts.

 

so this pretty much settles who is the better pass rusher and better player is not even a debate.

an all round every down player who is an all pro is better then a role player.

 

both where pro bowlers...

 

One tenth of one percent does not really separate players when it comes to combined totals of having a hand in plays made from tackles/sacks. Dumervil averages 7.5 yards lost to opposing teams on sacks while Houston averages 4.5 yards lost to opposing teams in sacks. Unless you show me facts in numbers on snap count of both players on passing plays as well as whether they rushed or fell back to cover a running back going out for a pass. Giving me guesstimates does not cut it. I am giving you facts I have found so far through reputable NFL stat web sites. I don't really care about anything but pass rushing ability and Doom is a better pass rusher. Nothing will change my mind, especially guesstimates, no disrespect intended. 

[Tru11]

One tenth of one percent does not really separate players when it comes to combined totals of having a hand in plays made from tackles/sacks. Dumervil averages 7.5 yards lost to opposing teams on sacks while Houston averages 4.5 yards lost to opposing teams in sacks. Unless you show me facts in numbers on snap count of both players on passing plays as well as whether they rushed or fell back to cover a running back going out for a pass. Giving me guesstimates does not cut it. I am giving you facts I have found so far through reputable NFL stat web sites. I don't really care about anything but pass rushing ability and Doom is a better pass rusher. Nothing will change my mind, especially guesstimates, no disrespect intended. 

 

you brought up the numbers not me.

 

you said chiefs only saw 529 pass attempts against them.( i did not come up with this number)

this means houston only had 529 snaps to get 22 sacks IF he played all the snaps.

these numbers give him an avg of 1 sack per 24 attempts.

simple math.

 

its a fact dumervil had 17 sacks.

in order for dumervil to present a better avg he would had to have gotten those sacks in only 391 attempts which would have given him 1 sack per 23 attempts.

you yourself said dumervil played 608 snaps.

you yourself said dumervil was a role player as a pass rush specialist.

 

now ask yourself how probable it is that out 608 snaps only 391 where to rush a passer.

 

its your numbers with your method from your first reply in this thread that pretty much shows that houston is the better pass rusher.

 

i used the numbers you provided with the method you used.

 

i did not make anything up.

 

you are free to stick with your believe even though you pretty proved its wrong yourself with the numbers you provided and the method you used at first lol.

 

bolded part says enough about you though so im done wasting my time.

Edited July 20, 2015 by Tru11

[RavensFootballFan]

you brought up the numbers not me.

 

you said chiefs only saw 529 pass attempts against them.( i did not come up with this number)

this means houston only had 529 snaps to get 22 sacks IF he played all the snaps.

these numbers give him an avg of 1 sack per 24 attempts.

simple math.

 

its a fact dumervil had 17 sacks.

in order for dumervil to present a better avg he would had to have gotten those sacks in only 391 attempts which would have given him 1 sack per 23 attempts.

you yourself said dumervil played 608 snaps.

you yourself said dumervil was a role player as a pass rush specialist.

 

now ask yourself how probable it is that out 608 snaps only 391 where to rush a passer.

 

its your numbers with your method from your first reply in this thread that pretty much shows that houston is the better pass rusher.

 

i used the numbers you provided with the method you used.

 

i did not make anything up.

 

you are free to stick with your believe even though you pretty proved its wrong yourself with the numbers you provided and the method you used at first lol.

 

bolded part says enough about you though so im done wasting my time.

 

Wasting your time? What you think you're doing to my time when countering? Actually, I don't consider this wasting my time, just a banter between two football fans on who is better is all. it's the American way my friend. My main points are Dumervil is a better pass rusher and salary comparisons are a moot point because of snap counts. We all agree that Dumervil is a pass rushing specialist, right? Just because Dumervil is on the field does not mean there is definitely a passing play on nearly every down he plays. I will try my best to find out how many plays Dumervil and Houston actually rushed on passing plays and if able to do so, break it down. This conversation has helped me narrowed it down better in terms of getting better percentages. You are correct in that on average 40% of the plays are running plays as the top 15 rated passing teams are on average slightly above 60% passing while rest of league is under 60%. Using your logic, out of 603 snaps with 40% rushing, Dumervil saw 241.2 running plays and 361.8 passing plays, well below 391 threshold you mentioned for Dumervil to be a better pass rusher. In order to be at least 391, teams would have to pass at least 65% of the time Dumervil is in the game which is crazy and counterproductive for opposing teams with Dumervil in the game, especially Suggs on the other side. Dumervil played over 80 more snaps than Upshaw and I find it hard to believe that teams will pass with Dumervil in the game at least 65% of the time. 

Edited July 20, 2015 by RavensFootballFan