Training camp position battles.

[jazz1988]

Agreed. Marlon Brown played way flat last year when asked to step up. I think he gets pushed down the roster if not off with the amount of talent we have now. Seems like everyone else is hungry except him.

 

Not really sure Marlon Brown was even asked to step up.We talking about a undrafted receiver whom was thrown in the fire right away after Jacoby Jones injury and Brandon Stokely injury  in his rookie year in 2013. In his second year he had to experience a totally new coaching staff change thanks to The Ravens hiring Gary Kubiak as offensive coordinator and he wasn't allowed to get his hands on the playbook until ota's. I think it should be quite understandable for a second year player like Marlon Brown to experience some growing pains or for him to have trouble getting comfortable in totally new offensive  scheme.

 

Even Torrey look like he was uncomfortable at times

[757RavensFan]

Not really sure Marlon Brown was even asked to step up.We talking about a undrafted receiver whom was thrown in the fire right away after Jacoby Jones injury and Brandon Stokely injury  in his rookie year in 2013. In his second year he had to experience a totally new coaching staff change thanks to The Ravens hiring Gary Kubiak as offensive coordinator and he wasn't allowed to get his hands on the playbook until ota's. I think it should be quite understandable for a second year player like Marlon Brown to experience some growing pains or for him to have trouble getting comfortable in totally new offensive  scheme.

 

Even Torrey look like he was uncomfortable at times

 

And to add, they happened to bring in a Hall of Fame receiver in Steve Smith. Did anyone think Brown was gonna start over Steve Smith?

[January J]

Brown caught everything that was thrown his way- he just didn't get many targets. Now many ppl will say that's due to him running poor routes and not getting seperation, however he has shown he doesn't even need seperation to make those tough catches. He was behind SSS , Torrey , and jacoby mainly due to just seniority. He did have a bit of a sophomore slump last year- but I have no doubt that he steps it up this year - particularly in the redzone. If anything he provides in game experience in a very young recieving core.

Edited July 14, 2015 by January J

[BmoreBird22]

Brown caught everything that was thrown his way- he just didn't get many targets. Now many ppl will say that's due to him running poor routes and not getting seperation, however he has shown he doesn't even need seperation to make those tough catches. He was behind SSS , Torrey , and jacoby mainly due to just seniority. He did have a bit of a sophomore slump last year- but I have no doubt that he steps it up this year - particularly in the redzone. If anything he provides in game experience in a very young recieving core.

I have an extremely hard time believing this in the slightest when you have guys like Asa Jackson starting over Chykie Brown and Danny Gorrer, CJ Mosley starting over Arthur Brown, James Hurst playing over Jah Reid, John Urschel playing over Gino or Jah Reid, etc. It may literally just be because Marlon was not ready for that role. 

[757RavensFan]

I have an extremely hard time believing this in the slightest when you have guys like Asa Jackson starting over Chykie Brown and Danny Gorrer, CJ Mosley starting over Arthur Brown, James Hurst playing over Jah Reid, John Urschel playing over Gino or Jah Reid, etc. It may literally just be because Marlon was not ready for that role. 

 

Or just maybe Torrey, SSS, and Jones were actually better recievers than Marlon. Didn't Aiken and Brown collectively replace Jacoby when he was benched for dropping anything that hit his hands?

[BmoreBird22]

Or just maybe Torrey, SSS, and Jones were actually better recievers than Marlon. Didn't Aiken and Brown collectively replace Jacoby when he was benched for dropping anything that hit his hands?

That, too. My point was I think it had almost nothing to do with seniority, but yes, I'd say Aiken, Brown, and even Camp when he was healthy played a big role as rotating in at the number three receiver and generating match ups.

[BmoreBird22]

I can't really imagine Brown not making the roster unless he really just comes to camp playing very poorly.

 

Remember, Trestman LOVES big receivers, and he's really the only experienced one we have.  Also, a sophomore slump for wide receivers is fairly common... it's typically in their third year that they start to play well.  Given the way Harbaugh talked about Marlon earlier this offseason, and the fact that he is our second most experienced WR in camp, I'm fairly confident he'll make the team.

I really wanna know where this idea comes from. Alshon Jeffrey and Brandon Marshall were both there in 2012, a year before Trestman gets there. I know they got Bennett in 2013, but he's the best tight end on the market and the Bears need a tight end. They just released Trestman and drafted Kevin White, without Trestman. Something tells me it's not necessarily Trestman loving big receivers.

[Guest]

Yea similar to BmoreBird's post I just don't think we can afford to carry 7 Wides. If you're carrying 7 you're giving up either an OLB or a CB and those positions are more important than a 7th receiver. We're probably looking at IR for Waller, Worthy and/or Campanaro or, if all those guys stay healthy, a tough choice between Butler/Campanaro/Brown for which two make it. Worthy I think will be PS or IR. If Waller isn't IR'd I can't see us cutting him unless he shows no talent whatsoever. And if Camp goes to PS he's gone.

 

The last thing the Ravens or Waller need is an IR situation for him.  It's work and experience that is going to transform him. 

 

If the Ravens were to seriously consider an IR stunt, I'd prefer we release him and let him fulfill his promise elsewhere.

 

You can't coach speed and size, all he needs are reps.

[beasy2487]

The last thing the Ravens or Waller need is an IR situation for him. It's work and experience that is going to transform him.

If the Ravens were to seriously consider an IR stunt, I'd prefer we release him and let him fulfill his promise elsewhere.

You can't coach speed and size, all he needs are reps.

Agree. So if SSS, Perriman, and Waller all make it and you only carry 6, you've got a tight completion between 4 guys (I don't consider Carter a serious prospect this season, has PS written all over him unless he runs multiple kicks back in preseason) for 3 spots. I think everyone agrees that Aiken will make a push, so the question becomes who you like best of Butler, Camp, and Brown? If say right now it's Brown > Butler > Campanaro with Brown ahead of Butler by a small margin, but I see Butlers stock rising whereas Marlon's is standing still. Camp's stock is falling but if he's fully healthy when we cut to 53 he makes the team. So assuming Camp is healthy for the sake of argument, it's Brown vs. Butler in a dog fight.

[ravensdan]

I really wanna know where this idea comes from. Alshon Jeffrey and Brandon Marshall were both there in 2012, a year before Trestman gets there. I know they got Bennett in 2013, but he's the best tight end on the market and the Bears need a tight end. They just released Trestman and drafted Kevin White, without Trestman. Something tells me it's not necessarily Trestman loving big receivers.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm pretty sure Trestman likes the best receivers most. There is a very pervasive obsession with Big receivers on this board. But that's not the way the league is going. The ones that will stick will be whoever shows the most. I honestly don't know who it's going to be.

[BmoreBird22]

I was thinking the same thing. I'm pretty sure Trestman likes the best receivers most. There is a very pervasive obsession with Big receivers on this board. But that's not the way the league is going. The ones that will stick will be whoever shows the most. I honestly don't know who it's going to be.

That's exactly what I'm thinking- I don't care if Marlon Brown is 6'5". If DeAndre Carter at 5'9" shows he can play better, he'll make it. If Camp at a similar height shows he can play better, he'll make it. You get the idea, but the Ravens won't keep a player solely because that player is tall. 

[rmw10]

I think the WR battle is really down to just 7 guys at this point.  I think Carter is trending more towards Worthy, Robinson, and Brown than he is the top group.  OTA reports suggest he got a case of the dropsies.  I think he's a big product of hype at this point, but is a perfect candidate for the practice squad.

 

I'm struggling here picking the odd man out if we do go with 6.  Ideally, we could just keep all 7 guys, but there are so many other strong positions as well.  it's going to be a tough year of cuts.

[beasy2487]

Not only will he make the team, but he has a very good chance of being the #2 WR when the season starts.

 

I dunno man. You keep bringing up Steve Smith and Jacoby. Let's make a more direct comparison to another player in essentially the exact same position as Brown:

 

Brown 2014:

Offensive Snaps(In 16 games)- 375

Yards Receiving- 255

 

Aiken 2014:

Offensive Snaps(In 18 games)- 276

Yards Receiving- 267

 

Add in the fact that Aiken played 260 special teams snaps to Brown's 78...to me it's crystal clear which player is better. Same offense, same position, same QB, same OC, AND with the benefit of a year of chemistry to his advantage I'm not sure why there's such a strong desire to call Brown's play in 2014 anything but a huge disappointment.

[rmw10]

One thing on Brown that not many are mentioning...

He started the year very slow, but he really turned it on in the second half of the season. The stats might not show it specifically, but he was a critical piece on 3rd downs.

[757RavensFan]

I dunno man. You keep bringing up Steve Smith and Jacoby. Let's make a more direct comparison to another player in essentially the exact same position as Brown:

 

Brown 2014:

Offensive Snaps(In 16 games)- 375

Yards Receiving- 255

 

Aiken 2014:

Offensive Snaps(In 18 games)- 276

Yards Receiving- 267

 

Add in the fact that Aiken played 260 special teams snaps to Brown's 78...to me it's crystal clear which player is better. Same offense, same position, same QB, same OC, AND with the benefit of a year of chemistry to his advantage I'm not sure why there's such a strong desire to call Brown's play in 2014 anything but a huge disappointment.

 

Well the highlighted number speaks volumes. The coaches had Brown in the game more than Aiken, that says a lot. Granted Aiken did more w/ less, but the fact that the coaches had the confidence in Brown to have him play 100+ more snaps than Aiken can't be overlooked. 

[beasy2487]

Well the highlighted number speaks volumes. The coaches had Brown in the game more than Aiken, that says a lot. Granted Aiken did more w/ less, but the fact that the coaches had the confidence in Brown to have him play 100+ more snaps than Aiken can't be overlooked. 

 

...whoa

[January J]

That, too. My point was I think it had almost nothing to do with seniority, but yes, I'd say Aiken, Brown, and even Camp when he was healthy played a big role as rotating in at the number three receiver and generating match ups.

well obviously the coaches think that way even if some of us fans don't. Marlon had a big rookie year- and then came in Steve Smith SENIORITY. Torrey was our first round pick that we had invested in and were trying to develop into a # 1 reciever and jacoby jones was still hanging on to the phenomenal playoff run from 2012 and everybody was hoping that guy would come back to stay. He showed flashes and then eventually stalled out. All of this was going on while at the same time kubiak is a run first coordinator and was having strong succuss with Forsett. Basically the way I see it brown kind of just got put on the back burner. Edited July 15, 2015 by January J

[BmoreBird22]

well obviously the coaches think that way even if some of us fans don't. Marlon had a big rookie year- and then came in Steve Smith SENIORITY. Torrey was our first round pick that we had invested in and were trying to develop into a # 1 reciever and jacoby jones was still hanging on to the phenomenal playoff run from 2012 and everybody was hoping that guy would come back to stay. He showed flashes and then eventually stalled out. All of this was going on while at the same time kubiak is a run first coordinator and was having strong succuss with Forsett. Basically the way I see it brown kind of just got put on the back burner.

Steve Smith starting had nothing to do with him being more tenured. He was literally just the best receiver or tight end on the roster. What does he do in his first three games even with Pitta healthy? Just goes out and catches 18 passes for 300 yards and a touchdown. I'm honestly even convinced that if Pitta is healthy, Steve keeps having a big year because Pitta takes some attention underneath. 

Torrey was a second round pick and if you want to say Marlon had a big year as a rookie in 2013, what did Torrey have? Torrey only out-gained him by 600 yards. But even so, keep in mind that in 2013, the Ravens had absolutely no running game and Marlon was thrown into being the number two receiver because of Jacoby's injury. Some of Marlon's best games came while Jacoby was out, but once Jacoby comes back, Marlon begins to cool back down a lot. 

And trust me, Jacoby was not playing that much in 2014. I don't know if Beasy can find the snap count, but he was pretty much relegated to return duties and nothing more. He never caught more than two passes in a game and was more of a decoy if he was even in.

 

Brown was just not as good as the other guys that were playing ahead of him (Torrey and Steve) and he got rotated quite a bit for players who had skill sets better tailored to the down and distance. It's nothing to do with seniority. He was just not as good as fans would have liked to think. In 2013, the Ravens were ranked 30th in rush yards per game and 32nd in YPC. Joe also threw 614 times, 60 more than any other year, which was 2014, and 80 more than any other year if you don't count 2014 because it hadn't happened yet. Marlon literally just got severely inflated stats due to the team's situation and now people are overrating that.

[BmoreBird22]

Well the highlighted number speaks volumes. The coaches had Brown in the game more than Aiken, that says a lot. Granted Aiken did more w/ less, but the fact that the coaches had the confidence in Brown to have him play 100+ more snaps than Aiken can't be overlooked. 

I'm very curious to see their snaps by half of season because to me, it seemed like they both started getting a heavier workload in the second half and I'd be curious to see how close it is.

[beasy2487]

well obviously the coaches think that way even if some of us fans don't. Marlon had a big rookie year- and then came in Steve Smith SENIORITY. Torrey was our first round pick that we had invested in and were trying to develop into a # 1 reciever and jacoby jones was still hanging on to the phenomenal playoff run from 2012 and everybody was hoping that guy would come back to stay. He showed flashes and then eventually stalled out. All of this was going on while at the same time kubiak is a run first coordinator and was having strong succuss with Forsett. Basically the way I see it brown kind of just got put on the back burner.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "Marlon got put on the back burner." He played 36% of the receiving snaps which was 3rd on the team. With about 35+% fewer snaps (26% to Marlon's 35% of the total) Aiken had one more target than Brown (37 to 36, IIRC) and about 10 more yards. Breaking it down even further:

 

-Aiken and Brown essentially shared the WR3 spot (the idea that Jacoby was gifted the WR3 position is a myth as he played 183 receiving snaps (18%), about half of Brown's and 100 or so less than Aiken. Camp wasn't on the field enough to be considered a true snap drain). Kubiak also ran fairly basic route combinations in his offense, so the WR3 in any given set ran essentially the same routes no matter whom the body was (Brown, Aiken, Campanaro or Jacoby)

-It stands to reason, then, that given the exact same types of routes as Brown, with significantly fewer opportunities to run them, Aiken performed essentially exactly the same if not better (Also factor in that he playd 280 ST snaps to Brown's 78)

 

So why did Joe clearly prefer to target Aiken when he was on the field? Why was Aiken the one to sub for Torrey at WR2 when he got a little banged up mid-late season? Why would the Ravens put Brown, with a year of experience and chemistry with Joe, on the back burner and give the chances to Aiken instead?

 

From where I'm sitting, the only answer that resolves all three of those questions is that Marlon did not capitalize on his opportunities when he was on the field. This notion that Joe, Kubes, and Harbs just forgot about the guy because we brought in Steve Smith just doesn't bear scrutiny.

Edited July 15, 2015 by beasy2487

[January J]

I'm not sure what you mean by "Marlon got put on the back burner." He played 36% of the receiving snaps which was 3rd on the team. With about 35+% fewer snaps (26% to Marlon's 35% of the total) Aiken had one more target than Brown (37 to 36, IIRC) and about 10 more yards. Breaking it down even further:

-Aiken and Brown essentially shared the WR3 spot (the idea that Jacoby was gifted the WR3 position is a myth as he played 183 receiving snaps (18%), about half of Brown's and 100 or so less than Aiken. Camp wasn't on the field enough to be considered a true snap drain). Kubiak also ran fairly basic route combinations in his offense, so the WR3 in any given set ran essentially the same routes no matter whom the body was (Brown, Aiken, Campanaro or Jacoby)

-It stands to reason, then, that given the exact same types of routes as Brown, with significantly fewer opportunities to run them, Aiken performed essentially exactly the same if not better (Also factor in that he playd 280 ST snaps to Brown's 78)

So why did Joe clearly prefer to target Aiken when he was on the field? Why was Aiken the one to sub for Torrey at WR2 when he got a little banged up mid-late season? Why would the Ravens put Brown, with a year of experience and chemistry with Joe, on the back burner and give the chances to Aiken instead?

From where I'm sitting, the only answer that resolves all three of those questions is that Marlon did not capitalize on his opportunities when he was on the field. This notion that Joe, Kubes, and Harbs just forgot about the guy because we brought in Steve Smith just doesn't bear scrutiny.

everything both of you said makes a lot of sense . Can't argue with the numbers . But I never really thought that brown should be playing infront of any of them bc quite frankly they are better than him. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have talent and potential. At this point He's a solid #3 guy at best. But like I was saying, Atleast harbaugh and SSS seem to believe that he got put on the back burner bc of the arrival of SSS. However Whether or not they were just saying that is certainly debatable.

[FlackAttack]

Looking forward to seeing what our backup RBs look like. Lorenzo T flashed in some games last season, nice big frame and can push downfield. He may have had some fumbles but thats normal, better get it all out while hes young. Buck Allen was a beast in college so it'll be interesting to see how he pans out in NFL. Both big bodied runners that will compliment Justin Forsett nicely. And we got the undrafted rookie Terrence Magee who could be a sleeper, he actually reminds me a lot like ray coming out of rutgers, so it'll be interesting to see how that pans out. All this talk about WR's, we cant forget this is Ravens football. We'll still be running the ball, and using our RB's a lot more in passing game due to trestman taking over.

Edited July 16, 2015 by FlackAttack

[beasy2487]

everything both of you said makes a lot of sense . Can't argue with the numbers . But I never really thought that brown should be playing infront of any of them bc quite frankly they are better than him. But that doesn't mean he doesn't have talent and potential. At this point He's a solid #3 guy at best. But like I was saying, Atleast harbaugh and SSS seem to believe that he got put on the back burner bc of the arrival of SSS. However Whether or not they were just saying that is certainly debatable.

 

Yea I mean I'm probably being a little hard on Brown but I had really high hopes for him last season and by midway I just felt let down. More than anything I want a higher caliber of receiver across the board. Hopefully we hit on a couple young guys over the next 2-3 offseasons, starting with Perriman this year, and overhaul our WR corps in the same way we did our OL.

[FlackAttack]

Yea I mean I'm probably being a little hard on Brown but I had really high hopes for him last season and by midway I just felt let down. More than anything I want a higher caliber of receiver across the board. Hopefully we hit on a couple young guys over the next 2-3 offseasons, starting with Perriman this year, and overhaul our WR corps in the same way we did our OL.

 

i guarantee you 50% of the starting WR's come September wont be here next year.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I really want to see the competition at safety.

Wll Hill vs. Brooks vs Lewis... Hopefully Brooks is healthy enough to man that SS position so Hill can slide to FS.

I like Hill much better at SS than FS even though the lines aren't as distinguished in today's game and our defense especially.

Don't think Brooks will be healthy to start the season and honestly I think Lewis is most likely a lock to start at FS if he can play like he did in Houston. He's the only true FS on the roster that excels as a ball hawking center field type guy.

Most likely I think we see Elam and Brooks battling this year to be the 3rd safety in a rotation and getting snaps in sub packages. Then if we lose Hill to free agency, Brooks and Elam will battle it out for the starting role next to Lewis.

I think Levine sneaks into that conversation too since his experience playing corner last year could really bring some scheme versatility.

The secondary - as long as everyone returns to form and maintains health - could realistically become a strength with loads of young talent and a surprising amount of depth both at safety and corner.

--

I also want to see who comes out on top between Arthur Brown and Zach Orr. Mainly just because I want to finally see Brown on the field, even though it would still be a rarity with Smith and Mosley entrenched and hardly ever coming off the field.

--

Backup running back I don't see as a battle. Forsett will be the workhorse and I think Tali and Buck are 2a and 2b depending on the situation. 3rd and long and Buck comes in for his pass catching abilities. 3rd and short and it's Tali. Though Buck will have to prove he can pass block well enough at this level to get a real shot.

--

The dline is another one, where I'm interested to see if one of the young guys can jump in front of Canty to start alongside Williams an Jernigan... But at the end of the day I think we see a deep and steady rotation on the line with snaps pretty evenly divided outside of the big 2 among 3-5 guys.

This is truly the deepest and most well rounded team in memory (at least on paper) heading into training camp. There are some question marks (WR, TE, Dline) where were leaning on youth an unproven guys - but so far the answers to most if not all the questions seem to be extremely positive.

Really excited for camp to start and see this thing start to come together.

[jazz1988]

I'm not sure what you mean by "Marlon got put on the back burner." He played 36% of the receiving snaps which was 3rd on the team. With about 35+% fewer snaps (26% to Marlon's 35% of the total) Aiken had one more target than Brown (37 to 36, IIRC) and about 10 more yards. Breaking it down even further:

 

-Aiken and Brown essentially shared the WR3 spot (the idea that Jacoby was gifted the WR3 position is a myth as he played 183 receiving snaps (18%), about half of Brown's and 100 or so less than Aiken. Camp wasn't on the field enough to be considered a true snap drain). Kubiak also ran fairly basic route combinations in his offense, so the WR3 in any given set ran essentially the same routes no matter whom the body was (Brown, Aiken, Campanaro or Jacoby)

-It stands to reason, then, that given the exact same types of routes as Brown, with significantly fewer opportunities to run them, Aiken performed essentially exactly the same if not better (Also factor in that he playd 280 ST snaps to Brown's 78)

 

So why did Joe clearly prefer to target Aiken when he was on the field? Why was Aiken the one to sub for Torrey at WR2 when he got a little banged up mid-late season? Why would the Ravens put Brown, with a year of experience and chemistry with Joe, on the back burner and give the chances to Aiken instead?

 

From where I'm sitting, the only answer that resolves all three of those questions is that Marlon did not capitalize on his opportunities when he was on the field. This notion that Joe, Kubes, and Harbs just forgot about the guy because we brought in Steve Smith just doesn't bear scrutiny.

 

I think Brown just got lost in sauce because of the new offensive scheme and Aiken whoms been in the league alot longer took advantage of that. Can't forget to mention how much a solid special team contributor Aiken is  as well and everybody knows if you impress John Harbaugh through special teams than you going to see playing time .

[stampedehero]

With training camp scheduled to start in less than 3 weeks, what position battle(s) interest you the most?  For me, I'm excited to see what young guy(s) steps up on the D-Line.  With the return of Urban and KLM and the addition of Carl Davis and Zach Thomas, it's gonna get real interesting in the trenches.

757  Good views

[stampedehero]

I believe Urban and KLM will fend off Carl Davis to keep their places in the pecking order.   i think they will team up and pursue the new guys. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I have a feeling we could end up taking 7 receivers. And with that you'd have Smith, Aiken, Perriman, Brown, Butler, Waller and Camp all make it.

3 TE's, 2 QB's, 3 RBs, 1 FB, and 8 OL. That's 24 offensive players. Leaves 29 for the defense and ST's.

Tucker, Koch, Cox.

5 corners, 4 safeties plus Levine who can be your 6th corner and 5th safety.

8 LB, and 8 DL.

Or maybe they only roll with 3 ILB since Smith and Mosley aren't going to come off the field (so 7 total) and take an extra corner, safety, DL, TE or OL.

But it will most likely come down to ST needs. For example if Brown wins the 3rd ILB spot and they feel Orr is more important to ST than say Butler or Brown... We only take 6 WR. Injuries will also play part like if Camp isn't healthy he'll get IR'ed and we go with 6.

Not saying we do take 7, just posing it as a realistic possibility. We could do it without sacrificing too much elsewhere. I think most of it hinges on Marlon Brown. If he makes it impossible to cut him and Camp is 100% it's going to be really tough to let go of any of those guys.

[TXRavensFan]

I have a feeling we could end up taking 7 receivers. And with that you'd have Smith, Aiken, Perriman, Brown, Butler, Waller and Camp all make it.

3 TE's, 2 QB's, 3 RBs, 1 FB, and 8 OL. That's 24 offensive players. Leaves 29 for the defense and ST's.

 

 

I have a feeling that with the competition at WR, Harbs will be looking to keep 7 at the beginning of the season. I also think Pitta will start the season on that IR designated to return list and when he comes back, they'll keep the 4 TE's and drop one WR who perhaps isn't performing up to expectations. If the WR competition is tight, this will give the coaches some extra time to evaluate them.