2015 Draft a Franchise (NBA): Discussion Thread

[BALTIMOREFLACCO]

You're still ignoring the stats you don't like, but whatever, you can have your opinion. Blake has done far more in his young career than Cousins has. He isn't a head case, and is a better offensive player by a considerable margin. I'll take the player that has proven he can play at an elite level when it counts the most.

 

I'm sorry, I wanted to put this to rest, but when you say things like this I just can't.

 

You've chosen to ignore pretty much everything but turnovers and scoring efficiency. I'm looking at the bigger picture here. His rebounding and defense are better than Blake's– it's not really close–and he's still a top tier offensive player. 

 

Cousins is better than Blake in total Scoring, Rebounding, Blocks, Steals, PER, Opponent FG% overall and at the rim, Opponent eFG%, Free Throws, Foul Drawn, Free Throw %, Real Plus Minus, Defensive Real Plus Minus, Box Plus Minus, Defensive Win Shares, Wins Above Replacement (This is similar to Win Shares but w/ the team accounted for, it's used heavily for evaluating draft prospects), Points Per Possession, Points Per Shot, Hands On Buckets Percentage

 

Blake is better in: Turnover Percentage, True Shooting Percentage, eFG%, Assists, Assist Percentage, Assist Ratio, Offensive RPM, Value Above Replacement, Offensive Win Shares, Total Win Shares, Pure Point Rating, STL/TO Ratio

 

But I'm ignoring stats? 

 

I have addressed turnovers and efficiency a number of times. We get it. Cousins turns it over more. Blake is more efficient passing and scoring.

 

There's no reason to keep talking in circles about this. Cousins is not a better offensive player than Blake, but he's still elite, and I don't know if anyone would agree with you that's he's not an elite offensive player. We've established this probably 100 times in this thread. 

 

Cousins has never had the chance to play in the playoffs and take his game to the next level. He's never had any semlence of a supporting cast around him, nor has he had competent coaching and management. If Cousins and Blake switched teams, would Blake make the Kings better than they are with Cousins? I highly doubt it. 

 

The head case thing I can understand, but in terms of all around production, it's Cousins. 

Edited July 3, 2015 by BALTIMOREFLACCO

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

I like your Wiggins pick, I was considering him at my pick until you took him. Do you think I took Draymond too early? I doubt he would've been available in my third round pick, so I feel like I had to reach a little for the type of player I wanted.

Thank you. Wiggins has the potential to be an elite player and is already a very good defender. He needs to develop a consistent 3- point shot but even then he's a good scorer with the potential to do better. Him and Paul make a good duo.

Yes and no. It was too early yes but elite defensive players are hard to find. Big reason I took Andrew and Paul was because of their defensive prowess. Draymond just has a firey passion and can guard multiple positions very effectively. He's a capable scorer but isn't great or anything. He can shoot the three.

It's a reach in my eyes but not an ungodly one. You can build a team around him

Edited July 3, 2015 by LosT_in_TranSlatioN

[BALTIMOREFLACCO]

Also, I like all the past few picks, especially the Butler, Green and Wiggins picks. 

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Also, I like all the past few picks, especially the Butler, Green and Wiggins picks.

Thank you. I was targeting Butler. But Wiggins is fine.

Green was my target next round

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

If you switched out Blake Griffin for LA or Anthony Davis then the Clippers would be better off. Blake is a good player but because of his defense I would take 2 or three power forwards before him.

[MoveThoseChains]

Thank you. Wiggins has the potential to be an elite player and is already a very good defender. He needs to develop a consistent 3- point shot but even then he's a good scorer with the potential to do better. Him and Paul make a good duo.

Yes and no. It was too early yes but elite defensive players are hard to find. Big reason I took Andrew and Paul was because of their defensive prowess. Draymond just has a firey passion and can guard multiple positions very effectively. He's a capable scorer but isn't great or anything. He can shoot the three.

It's a reach in my eyes but not an ungodly one. You can build a team around him

 

This is the main reason why I took him. I was looking at a couple other players, but their defense wasn't on the same level as Draymond's. I already have a 1st Team All NBA scoring machine in Harden, so I wanted to balance the other end of the floor. I love Green's defense & passion/intensity, and I like his offense as well. He is a capable scorer, can find the open man with a nice pass, and can get offensive boards. I like his screen-and-roll game as well.

[CalvinSmoke]

That's fine. Lots of people don't realize how good he is.

Blake had moments of dominance, big meltdown against the rockets in the playoffs but he was fantastic until that point. I respect his game.

He isn't as aggressive in the paint as he used to be but he's worked on his jump shot to compensate.

[Gordo52]

Gonna be a couple hours.

[gabefergy]

I'm sorry, I wanted to put this to rest, but when you say things like this I just can't.

 

You've chosen to ignore pretty much everything but turnovers and scoring efficiency. I'm looking at the bigger picture here. His rebounding and defense are better than Blake's– it's not really close–and he's still a top tier offensive player. 

 

Cousins is better than Blake in total Scoring, Rebounding, Blocks, Steals, PER, Opponent FG% overall and at the rim, Opponent eFG%, Free Throws, Foul Drawn, Free Throw %, Real Plus Minus, Defensive Real Plus Minus, Box Plus Minus, Defensive Win Shares, Wins Above Replacement (This is similar to Win Shares but w/ the team accounted for, it's used heavily for evaluating draft prospects), Points Per Possession, Points Per Shot, Hands On Buckets Percentage

 

Blake is better in: Turnover Percentage, True Shooting Percentage, eFG%, Assists, Assist Percentage, Assist Ratio, Offensive RPM, Value Above Replacement, Offensive Win Shares, Total Win Shares, Pure Point Rating, STL/TO Ratio

 

But I'm ignoring stats? 

 

I have addressed turnovers and efficiency a number of times. We get it. Cousins turns it over more. Blake is more efficient passing and scoring.

 

There's no reason to keep talking in circles about this. Cousins is not a better offensive player than Blake, but he's still elite, and I don't know if anyone would agree with you that's he's not an elite offensive player. We've established this probably 100 times in this thread. 

 

Cousins has never had the chance to play in the playoffs and take his game to the next level. He's never had any semlence of a supporting cast around him, nor has he had competent coaching and management. If Cousins and Blake switched teams, would Blake make the Kings better than they are with Cousins? I highly doubt it. 

 

The head case thing I can understand, but in terms of all around production, it's Cousins. 

There are exactly 3 player outcomes that can finish an offensive possession, an assist, a shot, or a turnover. 

 

Blake and Cousins are almost identical in scoring efficiency, with a tiny edge going to Blake, but there is a huge discrepancy in assist rate and turnover rate. Out of 100 possessions Cousins turns it over 6 more times than Blake while Blake has 6 more assists. That is a very big difference. At least 12 more points generated per 100 possessions for Blake compared to Cousins. 

 

You can talk about whatever stats you want to, but that is what it boils down too. 

 

The fact is Cousins is more of a volume scorer than anything else. His shooting % is relatively low for a big man. He makes up for it by taking and making a lot of FTs. However, you can't just ignore the discrepancy in Assists and Turnovers. If you were comparing PGs and one of them had a 5:2 Assist to TO ratio and the other had a 5:4 ratio it would be incredibly clear which was the better player. When Cousins has a usage rate as high as he does, the fact that he is turning it over at such a high is extremely detrimental to his overall contribution as an offensive player.

[gabefergy]

If you switched out Blake Griffin for LA or Anthony Davis then the Clippers would be better off. Blake is a good player but because of his defense I would take 2 or three power forwards before him.

Well Anthony Davis is an exceptional player who is amazing at both offense and defense. If you put Cousins on the Clippers I think they would be worse. First of all Chris Paul would hate him, but more importantly they thrive when they are pushing the pace and Blake is a big part of that. I don't think  Cousins can lead the fast break and handle the ball like Blake does which is a big part of his value.

[gabefergy]

Blake had moments of dominance, big meltdown against the rockets in the playoffs but he was fantastic until that point. I respect his game.

He isn't as aggressive in the paint as he used to be but he's worked on his jump shot to compensate.

I don't completely agree that Blake melted down in the playoffs, it was more of the role players around him that stopped making wide open shots, but he did disappear down the stretch. It was clear they were completely spent though which is what happens when you don't have a bench. 

 

He's not a perfect player by any stretch, but people seem to forget that he was 3rd in MVP voting just a season ago. He carried the Clippers when Chris Paul missed a big chunk of the season. I don't always like it when he settles for jump shots, but he is improved it to the point where it's not really a bad shot for him. He's an extremely smart player too. He knows what players he can take down low and players he is better facing up against.

[BALTIMOREFLACCO]

There are exactly 3 player outcomes that can finish an offensive possession, an assist, a shot, or a turnover. 

 

Blake and Cousins are almost identical in scoring efficiency, with a tiny edge going to Blake, but there is a huge discrepancy in assist rate and turnover rate. Out of 100 possessions Cousins turns it over 6 more times than Blake while Blake has 6 more assists. That is a very big difference. At least 12 more points generated per 100 possessions for Blake compared to Cousins. 

 

You can talk about whatever stats you want to, but that is what it boils down too. 

 

The fact is Cousins is more of a volume scorer than anything else. His shooting % is relatively low for a big man. He makes up for it by taking and making a lot of FTs. However, you can't just ignore the discrepancy in Assists and Turnovers. If you were comparing PGs and one of them had a 5:2 Assist to TO ratio and the other had a 5:4 ratio it would be incredibly clear which was the better player. When Cousins has a usage rate as high as he does, the fact that he is turning it over at such a high is extremely detrimental to his overall contribution as an offensive player.

 

You have one stat that really works in your favor and that's turnovers. Everybody gets that Cousins is turnover prone. I really don't understand why we're still talking about it. Everyone knows thats a weakness of his. He's not a PG, so that comparison doesn't make any sense. Cousins' job isn't to distribute. That's not how you evaluate big men. If his turnovers were so detrimental to his game, he wouldn't be at or near the top of the league (and ahead of Griffin) in WARP, PER, EF--F (ignore the dashes it got deleted for being a profanity without them) and Real Plus Minus. 

 

Some more appropriate numbers to evaluate big men are rebounding, points in the paint, second chance points, post offense, points off of screens, points as the roll man, post defense and rim protection. Cousins surpasses Blake in all but post efficiency. If you really think that AST/TO ratio is more important for a big man than these traits, then I don't know what to tell you.  You continue to ignore an entire body of work in the areas that are valued in an NBA center just to focus on Cousin's one negative stat.  

 

In terms of efficiency and being a "volume scorer", Cousins' TS% is .545 and Blakes is .551. That's a tiny difference. Blake actually gets more touches per game, Cousins just accounts for a larger part of his team's offense for good and bad (more points per touch but also more turnovers). Given the very small difference in conversion rate, if Cousins is a volume scorer, then what does that make Blake? 

 

Additionally, 67% of Blake's FG's come assisted. He has the best playmaker in the game setting him up for easy buckets. Cousins has nothing like that. He's given the ball and forced to work because that's what his team needs. Despite what you say, Cousins would benefit a ton from CP3. It's false that he doesn't run the floor and that Chris Paul would suffer from him in transition, as he's third in the league among centers in fast break points (higher than DeAndre Jordan). That's not as much as Blake, but it's still very good and it's not as big of a part of his game.

Edited July 4, 2015 by BALTIMOREFLACCO

[rmw10]

Robert Swift is the best big man of all time, so argument over.

Not a bad name drop for someone that knows next to nothing about basketball, right?

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Robert Swift is the best big man of all time, so argument over.

Not a bad name drop for someone that knows next to nothing about basketball, right?

No. Brian Scalabrine is dude. And he's only 6'9

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

With the 28th pick, Reserved selects:

Carmelo Anthony

Already has been selected... Twice.

[CalvinSmoke]

Already has been selected... Twice.

that made my ribs hurt a little bit haha

[-Truth-]

Already has been selected... Twice.

 

lol No way did that just happen.

[Gordo52]

My B

[CalvinSmoke]

ok, all laughs aside I'm happy to pick up the best young center next to the Brow. Obviously not including the GOAT Kwame Brown.

[BALTIMOREFLACCO]

Well Anthony Davis is an exceptional player who is amazing at both offense and defense. If you put Cousins on the Clippers I think they would be worse. First of all Chris Paul would hate him, but more importantly they thrive when they are pushing the pace and Blake is a big part of that. I don't think  Cousins can lead the fast break and handle the ball like Blake does which is a big part of his value.

Someone hasn't watched a lot of Boogie. 

 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2015 by BALTIMOREFLACCO

[Gordo52]

I reunite them.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

that made my ribs hurt a little bit haha

*Takes bow*

I couldn't resist

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Excellent pick in Love

[-Truth-]

Good pick in Love.

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

Quick. Let's get another debate going. Is Drummrod more effective at center than Blake Griffin would be?

Good pick

[LosT_in_TranSlatioN]

My big board skills are in play tonight. Send me them if you want.

[BALTIMOREFLACCO]

Got the top offensive rebounder in the league to grab Steph's three point misses and kick it back out. Just wish he had more of an offensive game, but he's only 21.  

[-Truth-]

Was hoping that Drummond would fall. Good pick.

[gabefergy]

You have one stat that really works in your favor and that's turnovers. Everybody gets that Cousins is turnover prone. I really don't understand why we're still talking about it. Everyone knows thats a weakness of his. He's not a PG, so that comparison doesn't make any sense. Cousins' job isn't to distribute. That's not how you evaluate big men. If his turnovers were so detrimental to his game, he wouldn't be at or near the top of the league (and ahead of Griffin) in WARP, PER, EF--F (ignore the dashes it got deleted for being a profanity without them) and Real Plus Minus.

Some more appropriate numbers to evaluate big men are rebounding, points in the paint, second chance points, post offense, points off of screens, points as the roll man, post defense and rim protection. Cousins surpasses Blake in all but post efficiency. If you really think that AST/TO ratio is more important for a big man than these traits, then I don't know what to tell you. You continue to ignore an entire body of work in the areas that are valued in an NBA center just to focus on Cousin's one negative stat.

In terms of efficiency and being a "volume scorer", Cousins' TS% is .545 and Blakes is .551. That's a tiny difference. Blake actually gets more touches per game, Cousins just accounts for a larger part of his team's offense for good and bad (more points per touch but also more turnovers). Given the very small difference in conversion rate, if Cousins is a volume scorer, then what does that make Blake?

Additionally, 67% of Blake's FG's come assisted. He has the best playmaker in the game setting him up for easy buckets. Cousins has nothing like that. He's given the ball and forced to work because that's what his team needs. Despite what you say, Cousins would benefit a ton from CP3. It's false that he doesn't run the floor and that Chris Paul would suffer from him in transition, as he's third in the league among centers in fast break points (higher than DeAndre Jordan). That's not as much as Blake, but it's still very good and it's not as big of a part of his game.

Turnovers are bad. They significantly hurt offense. What's not to understand about it? It doesn't matter what position he plays, his usage rate is higher than most PGs. When he turns the ball over that much it makes him not so elite.

[gabefergy]

Someone hasn't watched a lot of Boogie.

Actually I have, probably more than most people. I have had him on fantasy teams the past two seasons and he is not a great decision maker in the open court.