ravensfan520

Upshaw's future

130 posts in this topic

Upshaw just doesn't have that burst or closing speed to really get to the quarterback consistently unless the coverage really holds up, but I'd be very content if he could consistently push and collapse the pocket.

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He isn't the player they thought they were getting. It's as simple as that. He's not much for quick twitch and doesn't use his hands well enough because in part of his length. They thought they were getting a junk yard dog who foams at the mouth and just dominates through force of will and wearing guys out. He's not that, he's a fine player in what he does but there's a reason why Zadarius will see pass rush snaps before Upshaw.

I remember one of the Ravens college scouts saying he had Upshaw as the best player in the draft that year...oops.

james harrison was exactly that kind of player and it took him a very long time to develop into the DPOY he became, they are built similar, they have similar mentalities and playing style, they are nearly identical in every measurable facet(except for weight), harrison came into the league in 2002 and was nothing but a special teamer up until 07. 

 

granted harrison had zero expectations and upshaw had much more, but the description you gave just made me think of a guy who i always thought upshaw could compare to one day. upshaw has faced weight issues which it seems he is handling much better now, with that being out of the way he can now focus more on his game, and if he handles his weight issues even better and can gain some burst with it, then he could very well become the player we expected him to be. 

 

im just saying, that upshaws lack of pass rush ability is apparent, but he doesnt appear doomed in that aspect by any means, there is still lots of potential for him in that department, he definitely has a mean bull rush and he can bully players at the point of attack, when he finds a window he shows burst(see the called back sack on roethlisberger), and he has faced some obstacles up until this point, weight issues and scheming to get pure pass rushers on the field and scheming him for contain and coverage are big obstacles to a OLB if you are expecting big pass rushing production. i like what he brings to this team, and i still hold out hope that he can be a decent rusher when given the full opportunity, but if not, i still want him to be a raven.

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If Upshaw could trim down to like 260ish and still hold the edge, I bet he'd be a far better pass rusher. He's just so big, he really seems to move a notch slower than everyone else

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Upshaw has the Quinton Coples syndrome. Too big for his own good... I love me some Upshaw though I hope we can keep him.

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He isn't the player they thought they were getting. It's as simple as that. He's not much for quick twitch and doesn't use his hands well enough because in part of his length. They thought they were getting a junk yardarrow-10x10.png dog who foams at the mouth and just dominates through force of will and wearing guys out. He's not that, he's a fine player in what he does but there's a reason why Zadarius will see pass rush snaps before Upshaw.

I remember one of the Ravens collegearrow-10x10.png scouts saying he had Upshaw as the best player in the draft that year...oops.

 

This post is a classic example of fans views and expectations not lining up with what coaches and other decision makers feel about a guy. Yes there is a reason that Zadarius will see pass rush snaps before Upshaw, but just like with Mcphee it'll be as a situational guy. There is a reason why Upshaw will continue to start at OLB, there is a reason why Upshaw will continue to make defensive alignment calls, there is a reason why coaches and teammates will continue to praise Upshaw. 

 

I keep seeing people say that Upshaw isn't the guy the Ravens were hoping, or that you expect more from a 35th draft pick, but I hear nothing but praise from any Raven coach or player that talks about Upshaw. Who's to say that Upshaw isn't exactly what the Ravens expected?

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This post is a classic example of fans views and expectations not lining up with what coaches and other decision makers feel about a guy. Yes there is a reason that Zadarius will see pass rush snaps before Upshaw, but just like with Mcphee it'll be as a situational guy. There is a reason why Upshaw will continue to start at OLB, there is a reason why Upshaw will continue to make defensive alignment calls, there is a reason why coaches and teammates will continue to praise Upshaw. 

 

I keep seeing people say that Upshaw isn't the guy the Ravens were hoping, or that you expect more from a 35th draft pick, but I hear nothing but praise from any Raven coach or player that talks about Upshaw. Who's to say that Upshaw isn't exactly what the Ravens expected?

 

really?...so you saying if they could re-do the entire 2012 draft again knowing what they know now about upshaw they would draft him?

 

Doubt it.

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The very same people criticizing Upshaw are criticizing Darryl Smith.  Their performances have been masked by the likes of Dumervil, Suggs, Nagata, and the others.  This team has been identified as having the best front 7 in the league.  With guys like Mosley in there as well???  Just another example of over-analyzing, and elevated expectations by some fans.

 

I, personally love the guy, watch him closely, and have seen him lay it all out there.  (a great example is not limited to and including Big Ben).  As Ravensfan says, the coaching staff is very complimentary of him...  There's nothing questionable about this guy.

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Not really too surprising to see the drop off with Doom being brought in and McPhee shining those years. This will be one of the better tests of Upshaw's pass rushing skills this year with no McPhee.

Exactly my point...  He's been surrounded by really good players.  That takes a lot of opportunity and attention away....

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The very same people criticizing Upshaw are criticizing Darryl Smith.  Their performances have been masked by the likes of Dumervil, Suggs, Nagata, and the others.  This team has been identified as having the best front 7 in the league.  With guys like Mosley in there as well???  Just another example of over-analyzing, and elevated expectations by some fans.

 

I, personally love the guy, watch him closely, and have seen him lay it all out there.  (a great example is not limited to and including Big Ben).  As Ravensfan says, the coaching staff is very complimentary of him...  There's nothing questionable about this guy.

 

 

NO

 

Daryl smith has been AWESome

 

the upshaw comparison is non existent. 

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NO

 

Daryl smith has been AWESome

 

the upshaw comparison is non existent. 

YES...  There are people who absolutely ARE saying these things about Smith

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YES...  There are people who absolutely ARE saying these things about Smith

 

they are incorrect

however the upshaw critisism is warranted. the d.smith..not at all..infact i think he outshone CJ mosley from week 6 onwards.

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YES... There are people who absolutely ARE saying these things about Smith

I haven't read anyone saying D Smith is not living up to expectations. Id like to hear any argument for that. He's been a god send coming in after Lewis. He's a key veteran. Been excellent in coverage. Only question is how long he can keep going.

Upshaw is good at what he does but he's never going to be a great pass rushing threat v

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I haven't read anyone saying D Smith is not living up to expectations. Id like to hear any argument for that. He's been a god send coming in after Lewis. He's a key veteran. Been excellent in coverage. Only question is how long he can keep going.

Upshaw is good at what he does but he's never going to be a great pass rushing threat v

I remember there was some ranking thread and people had put Mosley ahead of Smith. Not sure where it was
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I remember there was some ranking thread and people had put Mosley ahead of Smith. Not sure where it was

I could see that. Their wrong. But I could see that. Now uoshaw ahead of smith would be crazy.

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really?...so you saying if they could re-do the entire 2012 draft again knowing what they know now about upshaw they would draft him?

 

Doubt it.

 

The funny thing about words is that some people use them to say exactly what they mean and some people interpret the same words to mean something completely different. So to be clear, I'm saying exactly what I wrote. The post I referred to was a classic example of fans views of a player not matching up to what is said by coaches and teammates of the same player. Don't believe I said anything about re-drafting or going back in time or if the world was different. Unless we are looking to write a movie about the Ravens, there is no going back to the 2012 draft. 

 

But i'll play your lets go back in time game. If everything played out the same exact way, you lost JJ so you needed a strong edge setter, Suggs got hurt, Ray was lost for most of the season 2012 season, you would bring in Doom who is a liability in run defense and probably wouldn't have the same impact playing 50-60 snaps a game and the draft played out the exact same way. I think Ozzie would have no problem drafting a rookie who is smart enough to take over the defensive calls for a team that won the super bowl, a player who sets the edge really well for a defense that prides themselves on stopping the run and a player who can line up at multiple positions on the defense doing the work of several different players, I'd say Ozzie would still look to add that value to the team at 35. But what the hell do I know about building a team. 

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I haven't read anyone saying D Smith is not living up to expectations. Id like to hear any argument for that. He's been a god send coming in after Lewis. He's a key veteran. Been excellent in coverage. Only question is how long he can keep going.

Upshaw is good at what he does but he's never going to be a great pass rushing threat v

 

I think that's the point. Upshaw is who the Ravens have asked him to be and he's done a very good job of it. It all boils down to value for me. I think from a fans perspective you see him being selected at 35 overall and the Ravens top draft pick that year and you think he should be a pro bowl caliber player(not saying you). But every team isn't made of up of Pro Bowl players. You need players who can be dogs and more importantly you need guys who don't mind carrying out that role. Different teams value players differently. The Ravens really value a player like Courtney Upshaw and honestly a player like Upshaw isn't so easy to find.

 

Upshaw was never a great pass rusher at Alabama. He was a guy who could overpower weaker olineman and get to the QB with hustle. So I don't ever expect him to be a great pass rusher in the NFL as you mentioned. If Upshaw can get you anywhere from 4-7 sacks ontop of everything else he brings to the defense that would be great. I think he's capable of averaging 5 sacks a year which isn't great by any comparison, but for what the Ravens ask of him, it'd be very valuable. 

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This post is a classic example of fans views and expectations not lining up with what coaches and other decision makers feel about a guy. Yes there is a reason that Zadarius will see pass rush snaps before Upshaw, but just like with Mcphee it'll be as a situational guy. There is a reason why Upshaw will continue to start at OLB, there is a reason why Upshaw will continue to make defensive alignment calls, there is a reason why coaches and teammates will continue to praise Upshaw. 

 

I keep seeing people say that Upshaw isn't the guy the Ravens were hoping, or that you expect more from a 35th draft pick, but I hear nothing but praise from any Raven coach or player that talks about Upshaw. Who's to say that Upshaw isn't exactly what the Ravens expected?

You don't take a 2 down and sometimes 1 down player at the top of round 2...doesnt matter how good he is at setting the edge.

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I think that's the point. Upshaw is who the Ravens have asked him to be and he's done a very good job of it. It all boils down to value for me. I think from a fans perspective you see him being selected at 35 overall and the Ravens top draft pick that year and you think he should be a pro bowl caliber player(not saying you). But every team isn't made of up of Pro Bowl players. You need players who can be dogs and more importantly you need guys who don't mind carrying out that role. Different teams value players differently. The Ravens really value a player like Courtney Upshaw and honestly a player like Upshaw isn't so easy to find.

Upshaw was never a great pass rusher at Alabama. He was a guy who could overpower weaker olineman and get to the QB with hustle. So I don't ever expect him to be a great pass rusher in the NFL as you mentioned. If Upshaw can get you anywhere from 4-7 sacks ontop of everything else he brings to the defense that would be great. I think he's capable of averaging 5 sacks a year which isn't great by any comparison, but for what the Ravens ask of him, it'd be very valuable.

Yeah. I agree about what he's good at. I don't get the comments that have been floating around about him suddenly becoming a big time pass rushing threat this year that's not what he is.

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You don't take a 2 down and sometimes 1 down player at the top of round 2...doesnt matter how good he is at setting the edge.

Says who lol. All I hear is fans saying this but the people who made the pick love him. I think it's safe to say if Ozzie and company would be willing to say how disappointed they are in Elam and Harbs was so willing to chastise Upshaw and Mckinnie for weight issues then they wouldn't be at all hesitant to publicly say Upshaw needs to step his game up. But they don't they all speak glowingly of him. But I'm sure that's just coachspeak and there is no way Upshaw is resigned after this year.

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I haven't read anyone saying D Smith is not living up to expectations. Id like to hear any argument for that. He's been a god send coming in after Lewis. He's a key veteran. Been excellent in coverage. Only question is how long he can keep going.

Upshaw is good at what he does but he's never going to be a great pass rushing threat v

 

 

 I can go back to last year, postseason, and resurrect the comments, it might take a little while to find them, but they were all over the place.

 

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Says who lol. All I hear is fans saying this but the people who made the pick love him. I think it's safe to say if Ozzie and company would be willing to say how disappointed they are in Elam and Harbs was so willing to chastise Upshaw and Mckinnie for weight issues then they wouldn't be at all hesitant to publicly say Upshaw needs to step his game up. But they don't they all speak glowingly of him. But I'm sure that's just coachspeak and there is no way Upshaw is resigned after this year.

Doesn't mean Upshaw isn't good at what he is. Like there's no in between with people on this board. Coach doesn't have to hate a guy to acknowledge he's not getting what was originally thought, they do like him,but he's not fulfilling the envisioned role. And if the FO got what they originally thought from Upshaw its a bad pick that early. He was a very early 2nd, that's not where 270 pound OLBs that aren't productive pass rushers go, it just isn't. Personally if he comes back on a reasonable deal I'm not upset, he's very good at what he is and fills a roll, which is needed on a football team. But again, a top 40 pick, that lost snaps to McPhee (who actually got better here) and will lose snaps to ZaDarius who hasn't even played a down yet and both were 4/5 rounders? How is that good value in the top 40 picks?

If this is baseball Upshaw was taken to be a middle of the order guy in a high value position to produce numbers. He's essentially turned into a great defensive 1B, which is nice, but the corners in ball are numbers producers.

This is all about roles and position values. Not every position has an equal value, it's why some are paid higher than others. Upshaw is at a high value position and not churning out high production. His production is good for the role he is, but you can find that role filled cheaper if he's looking to cash in.

Edited by Bltravens
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I can go back to last year, postseason, and resurrect the comments, it might take a little while to find them, but they were all over the place.

If they exist those said posters are severely misinformed.

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Doesn't mean Upshaw isn't good at what he is. Like there's no in between with people on this board. Coach doesn't have to hate a guy to acknowledge he's not getting what was originally thought, they do like him,but he's not fulfilling the envisioned role. And if the FO got what they originally thought from Upshaw its a bad pick that early. He was a very early 2nd, that's not where 270 pound OLBs that aren't productive pass rushers go, it just isn't. Personally if he comes back on a reasonable deal I'm not upset, he's very good at what he is and fills a roll, which is needed on a football team. But again, a top 40 pick, that lost snaps to McPhee (who actually got better here) and will lose snaps to ZaDarius who hasn't even played a down yet and both were 4/5 rounders? How is that good value in the top 40 picks?

If this is baseball Upshaw was taken to be a middle of the order guy in a high value position to produce numbers. He's essentially turned into a great defensive 1B, which is nice, but the corners in ball are numbers producers.

This is all about roles and position values. Not every position has an equal value, it's why some are paid higher than others. Upshaw is at a high value position and not churning out high production. His production is good for the role he is, but you can find that role filled cheaper if he's looking to cash in.

Again say's who? You still never answered that. I never said you or anyone else didn't like Upshaw. All I said was that while people like yourself and I in some cases form a public perception of how things should be, who says that Upshaw isn't exactly what Ozzie thought he was getting. Hell I'll even except you saying you somehow got a private meeting with Ozzie and he told you he expected more when selecting Upshaw. Just tell me how do you know what Ozzie and Harbs are thinking because they certainly haven't said it or shown it for that matter, in terms of being unhappy.

You continue to say things like...you don't draft that type of player this high and The Ravens expected more. Ok so prove they expected more. Who is to say that Ozzie and company didn't look at Upshaw, place a value on his play and collectively agree that even though the guy may never be a strong pass rusher he's worth the pick and salary you'd pay him? What fan or reporter was in that draft room when drafting Upshaw and determining his value was discussed? I'm willing to bet none of us, so how can anyone definitively say what the Ravens were hopeful for when drafting Upshaw. That includes me.

When guys like Kurger, Mcphee, Kindle and ZDS were draft in the presser after the draft they were clearly defined by Ozzie, Eric and Joe as "pass rush guys" when they spoke about Upshaw they used terms like "junkyard dog", "violent", "he's a football player" etc. DaCosta spoke about how he'll be able to set the edge and how the position Upshaw would be asked to play is a tough one that many other guys can't play. In fact they basically described the exact player that Upshaw has turned out to be and I'm supposed to believe that they are now somehow unsatisfied with him?

Also for the record they did mention that Upshaw would be able to add to the pass rush, but I've never heard any one of the decision makers label Upshaw as nothing more then what he's been thus far. It's fans that expect more. So again tell me exactly how do we know Ozzie and company aren't completely satisfied with Upshaw and the value he brings?

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Again say's who? You still never answered that. I never said you or anyone else didn't like Upshaw. All I said was that while people like yourself and I in some cases form a public perception of how things should be, who says that Upshaw isn't exactly what Ozzie thought he was getting. Hell I'll even except you saying you somehow got a private meeting with Ozzie and he told you he expected more when selecting Upshaw. Just tell me how do you know what Ozzie and Harbs are thinking because they certainly haven't said it or shown it for that matter, in terms of being unhappy.

You continue to say things like...you don't draft that type of player this high and The Ravens expected more. Ok so prove they expected more. Who is to say that Ozzie and company didn't look at Upshaw, place a value on his play and collectively agree that even though the guy may never be a strong pass rusher he's worth the pick and salary you'd pay him? What fan or reporter was in that draft room when drafting Upshaw and determining his value was discussed? I'm willing to bet none of us, so how can anyone definitively say what the Ravens were hopeful for when drafting Upshaw. That includes me.

When guys like Kurger, Mcphee, Kindle and ZDS were draft in the presser after the draft they were clearly defined by Ozzie, Eric and Joe as "pass rush guys" when they spoke about Upshaw they used terms like "junkyard dog", "violent", "he's a football player" etc. DaCosta spoke about how he'll be able to set the edge and how the position Upshaw would be asked to play is a tough one that many other guys can't play. In fact they basically described the exact player that Upshaw has turned out to be and I'm supposed to believe that they are now somehow unsatisfied with him?

Also for the record they did mention that Upshaw would be able to add to the pass rush, but I've never heard any one of the decision makers label Upshaw as nothing more then what he's been thus far. It's fans that expect more. So again tell me exactly how do we know Ozzie and company aren't completely satisfied with Upshaw and the value he brings?

Their college scouting staff publicly stated Upshaw was the best defender in the draft.  One scout had him listed as the best defender in the entire draft.  It was all in the post draft stuff.  And if Ozzie thinks an edge setting 25 snap player is worth a top 40 pick (which he would never do), then his GM career would have ended in 2002.  I don't understand why expecting a top 40 pick to be an every down player is unreasonable.  Both DeCosta and Ozzie had to think they were getting a 3 down player, which is fine Im not blasting them for it, because if they were fine with drafting a 1-2 down player depending on down and distance, then they're not doing their job very well.  An OLB taken 35th overall is not a supposed to be a rotational player, it's really that simple.

Edited by Bltravens
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I think they were hoping Upshaw would turn out like Lamarr Woodley (before the decline) or Tamba Hali. Neither of those dudes have any kind of burst, but they routinely got to the QB. I can't figure out why Upshaw can't but those guys could. Similar build and ability, it seems. I think Upshaw just needs work on block shedding, actually getting off the block. He physically dominates olinemen but he can't really get around them. He needs to learn better body positioning and hand usage to do that.

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Their college scouting staff publicly stated Upshaw was the best defender in the draft.  One scout had him listed as the best defender in the entire draft.  It was all in the post draft stuff.  And if Ozzie thinks an edge setting 25 snap player is worth a top 40 pick (which he would never do), then his GM career would have ended in 2002.  I don't understand why expecting a top 40 pick to be an every down player is unreasonable.  Both DeCosta and Ozzie had to think they were getting a 3 down player, which is fine Im not blasting them for it, because if they were fine with drafting a 1-2 down player depending on down and distance, then they're not doing their job very well.  An OLB taken 35th overall is not a supposed to be a rotational player, it's really that simple.

 

 

I always ranked hightower as the better of the two prospects from bama

Edited by Sami84
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Their college scouting staff publicly stated Upshaw was the best defender in the draft.  One scout had him listed as the best defender in the entire draft.  It was all in the post draft stuff.  And if Ozzie thinks an edge setting 25 snap player is worth a top 40 pick (which he would never do), then his GM career would have ended in 2002.  I don't understand why expecting a top 40 pick to be an every down player is unreasonable.  Both DeCosta and Ozzie had to think they were getting a 3 down player, which is fine Im not blasting them for it, because if they were fine with drafting a 1-2 down player depending on down and distance, then they're not doing their job very well.  An OLB taken 35th overall is not a supposed to be a rotational player, it's really that simple.

Again you are still telling me what Ozzie would never do. How do u know without having direct access to Ozzie? Your value of a player and a draft pick isn't Ozzie's. You continue to talk from "perception" of you don't draft this type of player here or there. Say's who? Where is it written that you don't draft a OLB at 35 who you feel is capable of being everything u want in a SOLB and rotate him with a great pass rusher? The ultimate goal of the draft is to add players who can add enough value to your team that they can be important parts of helping your team win a champion. Was Upshaw viewed as a 3 down player, i would say yes and for the most part he is a 3 down player because he slides inside and helps push the pocket and in a lot of cases covers which Doom struggles with. The notion that Upshaw is just a 2 down player is false.

The biggest reason why Upshaw is rotating at strong side OLB is because Ozzie got a rare opportunity to add one of the best pass rushers in the NFL. That's a no brainer. If Doom wasn't here Upshaw would be doing exactly what he's doing now but he'd also be adding 5-6 sacks per season imo. But in no way would he be what Suggs or Doom is because that's not what he was drafted for.

So if Upshaw wasn't drafted to be a dominant pass rusher and the only reason he's not producing a handful of sacks is because you were fortunate enough to add one of the best pass rushers in the NFL, why should the Ravens be upset or feel they haven't gotten what they were expecting? Not a single coach, player, or decision maker has come out and said Upshaw needs to do more in pass rush. Upshaw said he wanted to produce more in that area because sacks equal dollars in free agency.

A OLB taken at 35 wouldn't be a rotational player if Ozzie wasn't able to score one of the best pass rushers in the NFL. You guys act as if Upshaw is being rotated with John Simon or even Mcphee for that matter. It's Elvis freaking Dumervil. Ozzie was able to find the perfect combination of a strong side OLB, but adding Doom doesn't mean they are expecting more of Upshaw. Maybe you are but from the looks of it the Ravens are not. They are prefectly happy with Upshaw.

By your preception the Ravens should be unsatisfied with Doom because they paid him starter money but all he does is rush the passer. He doesn't cover, rarely plays the run, he doesn't call and set the defense, he just rushes the QB. Last time i checked a SOLB getting paid starter money should be able to do all those things. But I'm sure the Ravens are pretty happy with Doom.

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I think they were hoping Upshaw would turn out like Lamarr Woodley (before the decline) or Tamba Hali. Neither of those dudes have any kind of burst, but they routinely got to the QB. I can't figure out why Upshaw can't but those guys could. Similar build and ability, it seems. I think Upshaw just needs work on block shedding, actually getting off the block. He physically dominates olinemen but he can't really get around them. He needs to learn better body positioning and hand usage to do that.

I can definitely see the Woodley comparison. But gotta understand how Woodley got most of his sacks. Woodley was never really a strong pass rusher, it was Pittsburgh heavy blitz scheme that got Woodley favorable matchups. Much of his success came against RBs, TEs and hustle sacks from Harrison forcing QBs to move.

The Ravens don't have the same type system. You'll have to have so type of pass rush moves to get to the QB in the Ravens system imo. Much like Woodley, Upshaw has the ability to overpower smaller guys and get hustle sacks but right now the majority of his pass rush opportunities comes from the inside against much more physical guys. If Upshaw was given the opportunity to rush against RTs, TEs and RBs consistently he'd get 6-8 sacks but that wouldn't happen until after Doom leaves. Which is why i think Upshaw is definitely re-signed and be that all around OLB unless the Ravens found another stud pass rusher for at great value like they did with Doom.

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Again you are still telling me what Ozzie would never do. How do u know without having direct access to Ozzie? Your value of a player and a draft pick isn't Ozzie's. You continue to talk from "perception" of you don't draft this type of player here or there. Say's who? Where is it written that you don't draft a OLB at 35 who you feel is capable of being everything u want in a SOLB and rotate him with a great pass rusher? The ultimate goal of the draft is to add players who can add enough value to your team that they can be important parts of helping your team win a champion. Was Upshaw viewed as a 3 down player, i would say yes and for the most part he is a 3 down player because he slides inside and helps push the pocket and in a lot of cases covers which Doom struggles with. The notion that Upshaw is just a 2 down player is false.

"Overall, due to his size, strength, and play against the run, Upshaw has late first-round talent. Look for him to pair with a pass-rush specialist opposite of him at outside backer in a 3-4 scheme where he can set the edge, work against tight ends and be a heavy run defender."

 

So, this is what NFL.com's scouting report said about Upshaw, in case anyone was wondering.

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