Upshaw's future

[BmoreBird22]

How is it tilted? A top draft pick is supposed to be an impact player.

Because you're asking a rookie to come in and play as well as a four year veteran who has practiced against NFL talent, had NFL level conditioning, and learned from many great defensive players, just because the rookie is a second round pick. And honestly, he played extremely well. He was PFF's number two edge setter and ranked in the top 20. I'm not sure about these past two years, but he's a fairly underrated player in coverage, too.

 

Now, I know what you're going to say: He needs to be a better pass rusher, but look at where the pass rushers go. I think eight or nine edge rushers went before the Ravens were on the clock to even grab Courtney Upshaw and I believe given where they traded back from, those eight or nine guys would still be gone. Looking at who was drafted behind him, you have two guys who could be classified as even pretty decent pass rushers in Vinny Curry and LaVonte David. One plays DE and is very one dimensional in being a pass rusher, although, I would want to see how he'd do at 4-3 DT and honestly, I don't know enough about David to say whether he'd be a good fit in the 3-4 or not. Even look at the 2013, 2014, and 2015 drafts; if you want an elite edge rusher, you better be picking top 15, usually top 10. They get snapped up quick.

 

And don't get me wrong, there are players I would have rather had, like Alshon Jeffrey, but it could have been far worse pick wise.

Edited June 28, 2015 by BmoreBird22

[gabefergy]

Because you're asking a rookie to come in and play as well as a four year veteran who has practiced against NFL talent, had NFL level conditioning, and learned from many great defensive players, just because the rookie is a second round pick. And honestly, he played extremely well. He was PFF's number two edge setter and ranked in the top 20. I'm not sure about these past two years, but he's a fairly underrated player in coverage, too.

Now, I know what you're going to say: He needs to be a better pass rusher, but look at where the pass rushers go. I think eight or nine edge rushers went before the Ravens were on the clock to even grab Courtney Upshaw and I believe given where they traded back from, those eight or nine guys would still be gone. Looking at who was drafted behind him, you have two guys who could be classified as even pretty decent pass rushers in Vinny Curry and LaVonte David. One plays DE and is very one dimensional in being a pass rusher, although, I would want to see how he'd do at 4-3 DT and honestly, I don't know enough about David to say whether he'd be a good fit in the 3-4 or not. Even look at the 2013, 2014, and 2015 drafts; if you want an elite edge rusher, you better be picking top 15, usually top 10. They get snapped up quick.

The original post that started this comparison stated Upshaw is better than JJ, which is patently false.

Upshaw is a decent role player, he brings some value as a run defender and cover guy. He isn't elite at either. Overall his contribution is underwhelming for the 35th overall pick in the draft.

[BmoreBird22]

The original post that started this comparison stated Upshaw is better than JJ, which is patently false.

Upshaw is a decent role player, he brings some value as a run defender and cover guy. He isn't elite at either. Overall his contribution is underwhelming for the 35th overall pick in the draft.

To this point in their respective careers, Upshaw is better and given that he was elite at setting the edge in his rookie season (I'm  not sure about last year, I'd imagine he ranked pretty well last year).

[gabefergy]

To this point in their respective careers, Upshaw is better and given that he was elite at setting the edge in his rookie season (I'm not sure about last year, I'd imagine he ranked pretty well last year).

Of course he is better through this point in their careers, that's not the point that was made and it is also not a fair comparison considering their draft status and playing time. JJ also had to learn a whole new position. Upshaw was above average at setting the edge last season, he wasn't elite last year by any stretch and he was fairly poor the year before that. He also gives zero pass rush, at least JJ contributed there in a small degree.

[redrum52]

Of course he is better through this point in their careers, that's not the point that was made and it is also not a fair comparison considering their draft status and playing time. JJ also had to learn a whole new position. Upshaw was above average at setting the edge last season, he wasn't elite last year by any stretch and he was fairly poor the year before that. He also gives zero pass rush, at least JJ contributed there in a small degree.

Kruger had less reps than Upshaw and both were drafted in the same round. at some point it comes down to production and Upshaw is doing enough to get on the field for significant snaps.

[BmoreBird22]

Of course he is better through this point in their careers, that's not the point that was made and it is also not a fair comparison considering their draft status and playing time. JJ also had to learn a whole new position. Upshaw was above average at setting the edge last season, he wasn't elite last year by any stretch and he was fairly poor the year before that. He also gives zero pass rush, at least JJ contributed there in a small degree.

He's really not given that much of chance to even contribute as a pas rusher with Doom, McPhee, and Suggs there. We'll see this year how far he's come as a pass rusher.

[harfordravenfan]

He's really not given that much of chance to even contribute as a pas rusher with Doom, McPhee, and Suggs there. We'll see this year how far he's come as a pass rusher.

I'd like to see it myself but could also see him coming out on passing downs for doom. This allows our best pass rusher to stay fresh, a very good edge setter to do there thing, and potentially limits the offers from other teams (if upshaw doesn't get the sacks)

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

No, it's a comparison of when they were starters. The rookie contract of a top draft pick should be when they are at their prime. The point is JJ was a better player in pretty much every facet.

Upshaw has been a massive disappoinent as a high draft pick. He's a slightly above average role player.

Expectations shouldn't come in to play when you're comparing player performances.

And I can't agree with the statement that the prime years of a top draft pick are their first 4-5 but a later draft pick's prime years are later on.

Everyone develops differently, but I wouldn't expect any player's best years to be their first couple in the league. Who are some examples of top draft picks who actually were good players that were at their best in their first 4 years and then declined after their rookie deal?

Comparing JJ and Upshaw is difficult because we know the full picture with JJ. Upshaws story is still being written. To compare JJ's best years to Upshaw so far isn't effective because to be accurate you have to assume that Upshaw won't get better.

It's not unfair to compare the two based on who they are/were as players at the same point in their careers just because Upshaw was drafted higher. To this point Upshaw has been a better player than JJ was on his rookie contract. It doesn't matter what you expected either to be at this point if you're arguing who is better. Even if you expected Upshaw to be Terrell Suggs and had no expectations for JJ, Upshaw falling short while being a starter and solid contributor is better than contributing nothing which is what JJ had done.

JJ went on to start and at his best was better than Upshaw is right now - but Upshaw can continue to get better when he reached his peak could very well be better than JJ at his peak.

Upshaw IS already an elite edge setter. His coverage ability is already better than JJ was at any point in his career. He's also been trusted to make the defensive calls and on field adjustments, a responsibility JJ never had. Granted playing alongside Ray Lewis guarantees you won't have that responsibility; but I do recall reading that Upshaw was among the players making the calls even in his rookie year when Lewis was still here.

Comparing players shouldn't be what did you do versus what I expected you to do. It's just "what did you do?" And what Upshaw has done so far compared to what JJ had done over the same period of time in their careers is FAR better.

[gabefergy]

Kruger had less reps than Upshaw and both were drafted in the same round. at some point it comes down to production and Upshaw is doing enough to get on the field for significant snaps.

Kruger was significantly better than Upshaw as a pass rusher. Upshaw is a good run defender so he has the early down role. He is not very effective as a pass rusher though which is why the Ravens went out and got Dumervil. They compliment each other well.

[gabefergy]

Expectations shouldn't come in to play when you're comparing player performances.

And I can't agree with the statement that the prime years of a top draft pick are their first 4-5 but a later draft pick's prime years are later on.

Everyone develops differently, but I wouldn't expect any player's best years to be their first couple in the league. Who are some examples of top draft picks who actually were good players that were at their best in their first 4 years and then declined after their rookie deal?

Comparing JJ and Upshaw is difficult because we know the full picture with JJ. Upshaws story is still being written. To compare JJ's best years to Upshaw so far isn't effective because to be accurate you have to assume that Upshaw won't get better.

It's not unfair to compare the two based on who they are/were as players at the same point in their careers just because Upshaw was drafted higher. To this point Upshaw has been a better player than JJ was on his rookie contract. It doesn't matter what you expected either to be at this point if you're arguing who is better. Even if you expected Upshaw to be Terrell Suggs and had no expectations for JJ, Upshaw falling short while being a starter and solid contributor is better than contributing nothing which is what JJ had done.

JJ went on to start and at his best was better than Upshaw is right now - but Upshaw can continue to get better when he reached his peak could very well be better than JJ at his peak.

Upshaw IS already an elite edge setter. His coverage ability is already better than JJ was at any point in his career. He's also been trusted to make the defensive calls and on field adjustments, a responsibility JJ never had. Granted playing alongside Ray Lewis guarantees you won't have that responsibility; but I do recall reading that Upshaw was among the players making the calls even in his rookie year when Lewis was still here.

Comparing players shouldn't be what did you do versus what I expected you to do. It's just "what did you do?" And what Upshaw has done so far compared to what JJ had done over the same period of time in their careers is FAR better.

Everything about this is wrong

[gabefergy]

He's really not given that much of chance to even contribute as a pas rusher with Doom, McPhee, and Suggs there. We'll see this year how far he's come as a pass rusher.

He's had 626 pass rush snaps in 3 seasons, and a total of what 3 sacks? That is a pretty large sample of ineptitude.

[BmoreBird22]

He's had 626 pass rush snaps in 3 seasons, and a total of what 3 sacks? That is a pretty large sample of ineptitude.

What about pressures and hits? I know he's not a great pass rusher, but we know he lacks the closing speed. I'd be curious to see how he's ranked when pushing the pocket or flushing the quarterback out

[BmoreBird22]

Kruger was significantly better than Upshaw as a pass rusher. Upshaw is a good run defender so he has the early down role. He is not very effective as a pass rusher though which is why the Ravens went out and got Dumervil. They compliment each other well.

I don't know, I think the Ravens would go for Dumervil even if Upshaw was a good pass rusher. Having four guys who can rush the passer would be awesome

[redrum52]

Kruger was significantly better than Upshaw as a pass rusher. Upshaw is a good run defender so he has the early down role. He is not very effective as a pass rusher though which is why the Ravens went out and got Dumervil. They compliment each other well.

True. Still can't believe how we lucked out with Doom. My only point was he still gets on the field more.

[edreed2o]

Am I the only one who looks at Upshaw and doesn't seem impressed by his build. I don't know how to word it, I just look at him and feel like he is not built well or seems out of shape... Don't know if that makes sense

I was thinking the same thing. Upshaw continues to have weight troubles durring and after the season. Doesnt seem like he has alot of upper muscle. That knd of worries me for him being a pass rusher. I really dont think he has the speed or upper body strength against those linemen to be consistent. Really hope zadarius smith comes through in the next three years so we ATLEAST have one pass rusher after sizzle and Doom move on. Doeant look like Doom is going anywhere any time soon. Seems like hes getting stronger as he gets older. Sizzle on the other hand worries me.

[Tru11]

I was thinking the same thing. Upshaw continues to have weight troubles durring and after the season. Doesnt seem like he has alot of upper muscle. That knd of worries me for him being a pass rusher. I really dont think he has the speed or upper body strength against those linemen to be consistent. Really hope zadarius smith comes through in the next three years so we ATLEAST have one pass rusher after sizzle and Doom move on. Doeant look like Doom is going anywhere any time soon. Seems like hes getting stronger as he gets older. Sizzle on the other hand worries me.

 

do you have any links to back this up ?

 

i cant find any article that suggest he had issues during the season and according to our own site the only time he had these issues was in 2012 and 2013 when he reported in over weight before OTA`s.

Those where posted in June and by the time we hit Aug and Sept there where no issues at all.

 

For 2014 there is even an article that said he reported in good shape.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Courtney-Upshaw-In-Better-Shape-Looking-To-Produce/75392dbb-7a19-4900-af26-24d0eef62333

 

For 2015 there hasn't been anything that suggest he was in bad shape.

 

So based on what do people think he still has weight issues?

 

Are we seriously gonna use this against him for the rest of his career even though he seemed to have cleaned up his act?

 

Also his upper body strength is his biggest area of strength lol.

He is the strongside edge setter meaning he is taking on a double team at the point of attack taking on the TE and T.

His biggest weakness is his lack of closing speed.

Its the main reason why can get good pressure but no sacks.

[edreed2o]

do you have any links to back this up ?

 

i cant find any article that suggest he had issues during the season and according to our own site the only time he had these issues was in 2012 and 2013 when he reported in over weight before OTA`s.

Those where posted in June and by the time we hit Aug and Sept there where no issues at all.

 

For 2014 there is even an article that said he reported in good shape.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Courtney-Upshaw-In-Better-Shape-Looking-To-Produce/75392dbb-7a19-4900-af26-24d0eef62333

 

For 2015 there hasn't been anything that suggest he was in bad shape.

 

So based on what do people think he still has weight issues?

 

Are we seriously gonna use this against him for the rest of his career even though he seemed to have cleaned up his act?

 

Also his upper body strength is his biggest area of strength lol.

He is the strongside edge setter meaning he is taking on a double team at the point of attack taking on the TE and T.

His biggest weakness is his lack of closing speed.

Its the main reason why can get good pressure but no sacks.

I know somebody who works for the Ravens and he has had weight issues over the years. Just because theres no source on the internet doesnt mean he doesnt have an issue with it.

[Tru11]

I know somebody who works for the Ravens and he has had weight issues over the years. Just because theres no source on the internet doesnt mean he doesnt have an issue with it.

 

ow you know somebody.

 

that has to make it credible then 

 

So why has the team and harbaugh decided to stop addressing this issue then?

They had no trouble bringing it up in 2012 and 2013 before  trainings camp , yet now all of  sudden they have been quiet about it.

Also im pretty sure neither the ravens or harbaugh would tolerate this happening during the season for 3 years and counting.

 

Care to tell us who this person is and what his/her job with the ravens is?

[edreed2o]

Why would I put his name in blast like that? John Harbaugh doesnt address every little thing. He has had weight issues. You cn believe it or not. Thats to you.

[ravensdan]

2014 3 hits, 1 sack, 8 hurries

2013 2 sacks, 3 hits 11 hurries

2012 2 sacks, 7 hits, 13 hurries

[beasy2487]

2014 3 hits, 1 sack, 8 hurries

2013 2 sacks, 3 hits 11 hurries

2012 2 sacks, 7 hits, 13 hurries

nuh uh. according to this thread, Upshaw couldn't find a potato sack in Boise, so much as dream of coming anywhere near an NFL quarterback. facts have no place in this discussion.

[Tru11]

Why would I put his name in blast like that? John Harbaugh doesnt address every little thing. He has had weight issues. You cn believe it or not. Thats to you.

 

translation im making stuff up lol

[BmoreBird22]

2014 3 hits, 1 sack, 8 hurries

2013 2 sacks, 3 hits 11 hurries

2012 2 sacks, 7 hits, 13 hurries

Not really too surprising to see the drop off with Doom being brought in and McPhee shining those years. This will be one of the better tests of Upshaw's pass rushing skills this year with no McPhee.

[gabefergy]

nuh uh. according to this thread, Upshaw couldn't find a potato sack in Boise, so much as dream of coming anywhere near an NFL quarterback. facts have no place in this discussion.

You acting like those are good numbers? Lmao

[gabefergy]

2012: 19th out of 20 in pass rush productivity.

2013: 39th out of 41 in pass rush productivity.

2014: 44th out of 47 in pass rush productivity.

Productivity = total pressures/pass rush snaps with more weight given to sacks.

[Bltravens]

He isn't the player they thought they were getting. It's as simple as that. He's not much for quick twitch and doesn't use his hands well enough because in part of his length. They thought they were getting a junk yard dog who foams at the mouth and just dominates through force of will and wearing guys out. He's not that, he's a fine player in what he does but there's a reason why Zadarius will see pass rush snaps before Upshaw.

I remember one of the Ravens college scouts saying he had Upshaw as the best player in the draft that year...oops.

[ravensdan]

nuh uh. according to this thread, Upshaw couldn't find a potato sack in Boise, so much as dream of coming anywhere near an NFL quarterback. facts have no place in this discussion.

Well those numbers place him at or near the bottom for 3/4 outside linebackers.

[beasy2487]

You acting like those are good numbers? Lmao

Nope, I just like to give the lords of the forum an opportunity to feel superior every once in a while. It's all the rage this summer.

The Upshaw situation reminds me of Suggs in the SB. Bayless got on him for not getting to Kaep and Suggs' response was that's why Skip has never and will never win anything meaningful—because he doesn't understand playing in a scheme. Suggs was hindered at that point and QB mobility was a factor, so they put him on contain to keep Kaep in the pocket. In my opinion they do a lot of that with Courtney because of his lack of burst. Instead of risking the outside lane I think Upshaw has historically been schemed to contain (even on passing downs). The times I've seen him get pressures and hits have been green dog and broken plays.

I think Upshaw is going to have to prove in practice that he can benefit us more as a rusher than we lose by taking him off contain. I'll be interested to see if he can make it happen.

[ravensdan]

I'm not sure why people are expecting him to suddenly become a difference making pass rusher. He's not and never has been. He's a good player who offers something important. No more. No less.

[edreed2o]

I'm not sure why people are expecting him to suddenly become a difference making pass rusher. He's not and never has been. He's a good player who offers something important. No more. No less.

I dont think Upshaw is much of a pass rusher neither but lets give him alot more opportunities this year before we say he cant do it.