Upshaw's future

[redrum52]

people seem to forget upshaw was the guy aligning the defense after ray lewis went out in our SB season and he kept that job even when ray came back.

pretty good for a rookie TBH.

its because we got daryl smith the team decided to let him do the alignment since its better for the ILB to do it.

i dont think people should question his football IQ.

you rarely hear about him missing an assignment or blowing coverage or making any other mistake.

Exactly. He's the OLB of Elam, if Elam could just do his job. He might not be flashy, but how often is he actually caught messing up? He does what he's suppose to do and is am extremely versatile player. I hope we can keep him, at the right cost.

[Passepartout]

He only needs to play for his deal. He has always been underrated. But great in that sort of coverage.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I stopped reading when you said '' I think he's a better player than JJ''

He's not. JJ was a hell of a football player. High football IQ.

Upshaw has a high football IQ as well. At times he's actually been the one calling out the defense and getting guys lined up.

People seem to forget that JJ couldn't even get on the field his 1st 3 years while Upshaw has been a starter since day one.

It was this yea in JJ's career that he finally got on the field and flourished. So to judge JJ using his entire career vs Upshaw so far and come to the conclusion that JJ was the better player is misguided.

Putting their careers side by side, year for year Upshaw has done FAR more than JJ.

Another aspect of Upshaws game is that he's actually done a very good job dropping into coverage especially for a man of his size. Something JJ struggled with a bit even later in his career.

In baltimore we love our hard working, doesn't take the credit, does the dirty work kind of player... And JJ - rightfully so - became kind of a cult hero. He's remembered very fondly for the great work he did, but that clouds people's memory of what he actually did and for how long he did it.

He was Kruger but instead of exploding as a pass rusher in a contract year he became a dominant edge setter. upshaws been that since day 1.

Upshaw has been good enough to justify making Dumervil simply a pass rush specialist instead of every down player.

Upshaw at this point in his career is FAR >>>>>> than JJ as the same point.

Let the rest play out before comparing the two on an equal playing field because the reality is Upshaw thus far HAS been way better than JJ was and thats undebatable so it's not a stretch to think that Upshaw can continue to continue on this trajectory, which if he does will wind up being better than JJ when alls said and done.

JJ's just one of the guys we put on a pedestal bc of the fond memories of the few years at the end of his pretty short run as a ravens starter like that hit or Whines Hard. But if you take your emotion out of the equation and actually judge them on achievement and play on the field thus far there's no question Upshaw is the better player.

The next couple years in upshaws career will tell us who overall was the better player for their careers but until he gets that chance the argument in incomplete.

Edited June 19, 2015 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[Sami84]

Upshaw has a high football IQ as well. At times he's actually been the one calling out the defense and getting guys lined up.

People seem to forget that JJ couldn't even get on the field his 1st 3 years while Upshaw has been a starter since day one.

It was this yea in JJ's career that he finally got on the field and flourished. So to judge JJ using his entire career vs Upshaw so far and come to the conclusion that JJ was the better player is misguided.

Putting their careers side by side, year for year Upshaw has done FAR more than JJ.

In baltimore we love our hard working, doesn't take the credit, does the dirty work kind of player... And JJ - rightfully so - became kind of a cult hero. He's remembered very fondly for the great work he did, but that clouds people's memory of what he actually did and for how long he did it.

He was Kruger but instead of exploding as a pass rusher in a contract year he became a dominant edge setter. upshaws been that since day 1.

Upshaw has been good enough to justify making Dumervil simply a pass rush specialist instead of every down player.

Upshaw at this point in his career is FAR >>>>>> than JJ as the same point.

Let the rest play out before comparing the two on an equal playing field because the reality is Upshaw thus far HAS been way better than JJ was and thats undebatable so it's not a stretch to think that Upshaw can continue to continue on this trajectory, which if he does will wind up being better than JJ when alls said and done.

JJ's just one of the guys we put on a pedestal bc of the fond memories of the few years at the end of his pretty short run as a ravens starter like that hit or Whines Hard. But if you take your emotion out of the equation and actually judge them on achievement and play on the field thus far there's no question Upshaw is the better player.

The next couple years in upshaws career will tell us who overall was the better player for their careers but until he gets that chance the argument in incomplete.

Upshaw wouldnt have made the field in the era jj was playing in. Upshaw has had a very mediocre career and no... You're wrong. Check out if yoy need any kind of clue jj's pff grades from 2007 to 2011 and you'll actually see him in elite categories while upshaw ranks in the bottom each year.

[Tru11]

sure lets compare JJ prime to upshaw first 3 years in the league.

that seems fair.

 

lets forget he was drafted in 2003 and only became the full time starter in 2007.

 

JJ 2003-2006

in 4 years he had: 1 int, 1 FF, 1 FR, 3 sacks, 59 tackles , 29 assist and 7 pass defended

play offs: nothing

 

upshaw 2012-2014

in 3 years regular season he had  : 0 int, 1 FF, 2 FR, 3 sacks, 81 tackles, 51 assist and 5 pass defended.

play offs :  1 FF, 1 sack  10 tackles and 3 assist.

 

if upshaw was mediocre that what was JJ in his first 4 years?

[berad]

sure lets compare JJ prime to upshaw first 3 years in the league.

that seems fair.

 

lets forget he was drafted in 2003 and only became the full time starter in 2007.

 

JJ 2003-2006

in 4 years he had: 1 int, 1 FF, 1 FR, 3 sacks, 59 tackles , 29 assist and 7 pass defended

play offs: nothing

 

upshaw 2012-2014

in 3 years regular season he had  : 0 int, 1 FF, 2 FR, 3 sacks, 81 tackles, 51 assist and 5 pass defended.

play offs :  1 FF, 1 sack  10 tackles and 3 assist.

 

if upshaw was mediocre that what was JJ in his first 4 years?

 

I agree with your implication but you have to factor that Upshaw was drafted in a higher position than Johnson and, therefore, had higher expectations to begin with.

 

I think Courtney's very underrated and the coaches and players heap praise on him for doing 'the dirty work', calling adjustments, his strength, etc. He has a great grasp on all the fundamentals of the role he's asked to play. The next step is his development is consistently making those splash plays. Blowing up a runner, planting Roethlisberger in the turf... we've seen it before but I'd like to see it more.

[Sami84]

sure lets compare JJ prime to upshaw first 3 years in the league.

that seems fair.

 

lets forget he was drafted in 2003 and only became the full time starter in 2007.

 

JJ 2003-2006

in 4 years he had: 1 int, 1 FF, 1 FR, 3 sacks, 59 tackles , 29 assist and 7 pass defended

play offs: nothing

 

upshaw 2012-2014

in 3 years regular season he had  : 0 int, 1 FF, 2 FR, 3 sacks, 81 tackles, 51 assist and 5 pass defended.

play offs :  1 FF, 1 sack  10 tackles and 3 assist.

 

if upshaw was mediocre that what was JJ in his first 4 years?

 

JJ hardly took the field during that time.

[TXRavensFan]

JJ hardly took the field during that time.

 

I don't think it helps your case that JJ took 4 years to crack the starting lineup, whereas Upshaw has essentially been a starter since day 1.

[pitchblack_20]

JJ hardly took the field during that time.

I think that was one of the points he was trying to make.

[Edgar]

I don't get the anti-Upshaw contingent. To actually say that this guy doesn't play like a Raven is mystifying.

[Sami84]

I don't get the anti-Upshaw contingent. To actually say that this guy doesn't play like a Raven is mystifying.

 

he's just not that good. JJ was the best edge setter in the league..i wouldn't say upshaw was anywhere close to that.. he's ok..a big body with a big hit here or there..but he's not that good.

 

we need an adalius thomas type of player..pure beast..run or pass and coverage..upshaw is just solid in the run game…nothing else.

[berad]

he's just not that good. JJ was the best edge setter in the league..i wouldn't say upshaw was anywhere close to that.. he's ok..a big body with a big hit here or there..but he's not that good.

 

we need an adalius thomas type of player..pure beast..run or pass and coverage..upshaw is just solid in the run game…nothing else.

Said every GM ever.

Not many 6'3, 270lb, 4.56-running, 38.5" high-jumping, 10' broad-jumping monsters to be found in the 6th round. Not to mention his athletic skills in space. That said, still took him a number of years to grow into his potential.

[Sami84]

Said every GM ever.

Not many 6'3, 270lb, 4.56-running, 38.5" high-jumping, 10' broad-jumping monsters to be found in the 6th round. Not to mention his athletic skills in space. That said, still took him a number of years to grow into his potential.

true

[BmoreBird22]

he's just not that good. JJ was the best edge setter in the league..i wouldn't say upshaw was anywhere close to that.. he's ok..a big body with a big hit here or there..but he's not that good.

 

we need an adalius thomas type of player..pure beast..run or pass and coverage..upshaw is just solid in the run game…nothing else.

Which is why he rates out as a top 5 edge setter by PFF.

[JoeyFlex5]

It was this yea in JJ's career that he finally got on the field and flourished. So to judge JJ using his entire career vs Upshaw so far and come to the conclusion that JJ was the better player is misguided.

Putting their careers side by side, year for year Upshaw has done FAR more than JJ.

 

in respect to this debate, jarrett johnson was also transitioning from DT which is what he was when he was drafted. 

 

although i do think this is spot on and its the point im trying to make as well. upshaw started as a rookie, JJ was a 2nd/3rd option the first 4 years of his career, upshaw has taken the bulk of the snaps in his first 3 seasons, upshaw in year 3 looks like an equivalent to JJ in his 6th/7th season, so if you line their careers up, JJ's 3rd season as the designated edge setter was his 7th season overall, upshaw didnt have the transition to make but still looks equal to JJ in all aspects, if not superior to what JJ was doing at this relative point in his career. 

 

i have argued lightly that upshaw is the superior player and if JJ got multiple contracts from us than upshaw deserves them just as much, because not only has he shown to be in the same tier as JJ, he also shows alot more potential with his extreme "brute-ness" and his surprising coverage ability, JJ may have had a slight edge in football IQ but upshaw is a hell of a smart player as well, and upshaw far exceeds JJ in terms of physical talent. 

 

love both players, if i had to choose between young upshaw and JJ in his prime, im taking upshaw, because i know im getting nearly the exact same contributions from a young player with more potential and could be getting 8-10 years rather than 4-6 years.

[Tru11]

I agree with your implication but you have to factor that Upshaw was drafted in a higher position than Johnson and, therefore, had higher expectations to begin with.

 

I think Courtney's very underrated and the coaches and players heap praise on him for doing 'the dirty work', calling adjustments, his strength, etc. He has a great grasp on all the fundamentals of the role he's asked to play. The next step is his development is consistently making those splash plays. Blowing up a runner, planting Roethlisberger in the turf... we've seen it before but I'd like to see it more.

 

thats true but on the ravens the best player plays regardless of where they where drafted.

 

if upshaw wasent good he would not start in his rookie season nor would they trust him to run the defense.

 

JJ hardly took the field during that time.

 

that says enough doesn't it...

[redrum52]

thats true but on the ravens the best player plays regardless of where they where drafted.

if upshaw wasent good he would not start in his rookie season nor would they trust him to run the defense.

that says enough doesn't it...

Though I don't agree with Smai on this topic, the defense when JJ was trying to break through was stacked, IIRC.

[Tru11]

Though I don't agree with Smai on this topic, the defense when JJ was trying to break through was stacked, IIRC.

 

it certainly was stacked.

 

still he got the job because thomas bolted in FA.

If thomas stayed we would not be talking about JJ.

[Ravensfan23]

he's just not that good. JJ was the best edge setter in the league..i wouldn't say upshaw was anywhere close to that.. he's ok..a big body with a big hit here or there..but he's not that good.

 

we need an adalius thomas type of player..pure beast..run or pass and coverage..upshaw is just solid in the run game…nothing else.

 

And there is the issue. Fans always want to recreate the glory days all while disregarding the present. We don't need another AD. Would it be great to have one, yes, but we don't need him to succeed and if Ozzie and company spent time trying to find the next AD, this team would be in the crapper. 

 

We hear it all the time. We need a big boided guy to replace Boldin and give us what Boldin gave us. No. We just need a WR that is reliable and makes the big plays when needed. Boldin, Mason, and Smitty are all the same type of WRs in different body type, which proves you don't need an exact clone to replace another player. We're hearing it now, Perriman is here to replace Torrey, ZDS is here to replace Mchpee, it's getting so bad that players and coaches have to fight back laughter when asked to compare Perriman to Torrey or ZDS to Mcphee. It's a pipe dream to think one man can identically replace another. It just doesn't happen. 

 

Upshaw brings a certain value to this defense, you can't diminish it, just because it's not flashy enough for you or he doesn't identically, mimic another player. Again if Ozzie tried to build this team that way, the Ravens would be another one of those teams just fighting to stay above .500 each year imo.  

[JoeyFlex5]

And there is the issue. Fans always want to recreate the glory days all while disregarding the present. We don't need another AD. Would it be great to have one, yes, but we don't need him to succeed and if Ozzie and company spent time trying to find the next AD, this team would be in the crapper. 

 

We hear it all the time. We need a big boided guy to replace Boldin and give us what Boldin gave us. No. We just need a WR that is reliable and makes the big plays when needed. Boldin, Mason, and Smitty are all the same type of WRs in different body type, which proves you don't need an exact clone to replace another player. We're hearing it now, Perriman is here to replace Torrey, ZDS is here to replace Mchpee, it's getting so bad that players and coaches have to fight back laughter when asked to compare Perriman to Torrey or ZDS to Mcphee. It's a pipe dream to think one man can identically replace another. It just doesn't happen. 

 

Upshaw brings a certain value to this defense, you can't diminish it, just because it's not flashy enough for you or he doesn't identically, mimic another player. Again if Ozzie tried to build this team that way, the Ravens would be another one of those teams just fighting to stay above .500 each year imo.  

+35

[52520Andrew]

I keep thinking of JJ Hardy with this thread with all the JJ talk

[January J]

Some people just don't appreciate the small things that don't end up on the highlight reel or on the stat sheet. Upshaw very much so plays like a raven, and it's disrespectful to say otherwise. I may be in the minority here, but I think upshaw makes huge strides rushing the passer this year- mainly bc they are going to be asking for him to do so a lot more.

[Ravensfan23]

Some people just don't appreciate the small things that don't end up on the highlight reel or on the stat sheet. Upshaw very much so plays like a raven, and it's disrespectful to say otherwise. I may be in the minority here, but I think upshaw makes huge strides rushing the passer this year- mainly bc they are going to be asking for him to do so a lot more.

 

The Ravens asked and allowed Upshaw to rush a fairly good amount last season. I don't see his opportunities increasing in that area unless you get next to nothing from ZDS or Means. I do agree that Upshaw will improve as a rusher, but imo it will come because it's something that he is more focused on this year. He's a guy that comes close to sacks quite a bit, even though he only officially was credit with about 7 pressures last year, but he does come close with his bull rush. What he has to now do is learn how to convert that power to speed and develop a secondary move to help him close out on the QB more often. I think Doom is the prefect guy for him to learn from, because that's Doom's game, power to speed. 

 

I'm much like you in the fact that I don't see where the hate for Upshaw comes from, just like Marlon Brown all the guy does is go about his business, work hard and develop each year. Once Upshaw learned how to become a Pro, with his weight, he focused on developing his game more and more each year. He was so good as a coverage guy last season that Pees got carried away with some of his coverage assignments. I'm a firm believer in whatever you focus on grows and I think from his words that Upshaw is really focused on the pass rush aspect of his game. I don't doubt the guy because I've seen his growth each year. Will he be a double digit sack guy? Maybe not, but I definitely can see him rack up 5-6 this year. 

[CalvinSmoke]

Gosh... Upshaw I'd good man, everyone won't be pro bowlers you build dynasties off drafting good players. If you draft pro bowlers they just get paid by another team. The Patriots won this year thanks in large to Edelman and the gronk, but they needed Brandon lafell too.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Upshaw wouldnt have made the field in the era jj was playing in. Upshaw has had a very mediocre career and no... You're wrong. Check out if yoy need any kind of clue jj's pff grades from 2007 to 2011 and you'll actually see him in elite categories while upshaw ranks in the bottom each year.

 

2007-2011. So his 5th-9th seasons in the league compared to Upshaws first 3. Seems fair????

 

How about JJ's PFF grade from 2003-2005 and compare to Upshaw.... thats if JJ even has one for those years considering he couldnt get on the field.

 

Trust me, Im not knocking JJ I freakin love the guy. One of my favorite Ravens ever. 

 

But your argument is like saying let's look at AJ Green's numbers this coming year and compare them Jerry Rice's numbers from his final year - and coming to the conclusion that AJ Green is better than Jerry Rice. Comparing JJ's prime years to Upshaws rookie contract is laughable man. IDK why i even bother.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

he's just not that good. JJ was the best edge setter in the league..i wouldn't say upshaw was anywhere close to that.. he's ok..a big body with a big hit here or there..but he's not that good.

 

we need an adalius thomas type of player..pure beast..run or pass and coverage..upshaw is just solid in the run game…nothing else.

 

JJ wasnt an Adalius Thomas type player. So if we had 2007 JJ you'd be saying the same thing because JJ was great in the run game and nothing else.

[gabefergy]

2007-2011. So his 5th-9th seasons in the league compared to Upshaws first 3. Seems fair????

How about JJ's PFF grade from 2003-2005 and compare to Upshaw.... thats if JJ even has one for those years considering he couldnt get on the field.

Trust me, Im not knocking JJ I freakin love the guy. One of my favorite Ravens ever.

But your argument is like saying let's look at AJ Green's numbers this coming year and compare them Jerry Rice's numbers from his final year - and coming to the conclusion that AJ Green is better than Jerry Rice. Comparing JJ's prime years to Upshaws rookie contract is laughable man. IDK why i even bother.

No, it's a comparison of when they were starters. The rookie contract of a top draft pick should be when they are at their prime. The point is JJ was a better player in pretty much every facet.

Upshaw has been a massive disappoinent as a high draft pick. He's a slightly above average role player.

Edited June 28, 2015 by gabefergy

[gabefergy]

JJ wasnt an Adalius Thomas type player. So if we had 2007 JJ you'd be saying the same thing because JJ was great in the run game and nothing else.

JJ are a good comparison becausd they both played similar roles, JJ was just better at it.

[BmoreBird22]

No, it's a comparison of when they were starters. The rookie contract of a top draft pick should be when they are at their prime. The point is JJ was a better player in pretty much every facet.

Upshaw has been a massive disappoinent as a high draft pick. He's a slightly above average role player.

That's still a comparison tilted in the favor of JJ and one that isn't fair

[gabefergy]

That's still a comparison tilted in the favor of JJ and one that isn't fair

How is it tilted? A top draft pick is supposed to be an impact player.