No purple shades here...

[rmcjacket23]

Mincing words my friend. The fact is the record shows we wanted him back from Harbaugh's lips to God's ears. Someone else paid him more. We deemed him worthy of what we offered, he deemed himself worthy of more and so did the 9ers. Your statement has no basis in fact, hence speculation. Unless you have some knowledge outside of what is on the record, which you often purport to but I sincerely doubt, your comment on this matter is your opinion and nothing more.

Cool. He joins the long, long, long list of ex-Ravens who John Harbaugh wishes he still had on this team. Not a less relevant concept in this world than that. This is a football team, not a Christmas list. 

 

If you want to play the "speculation" game, most of what you said above was speculation. Saying we even offered him a contract this offseason is speculation, because it lacks evidence that we did. The only thing that can even vaguely be considered "factual" in terms of what contract offers we made to him was an alleged $7M per year offer made a full season prior. We don't know if that offer was real, nor do we know if the same offer or a better or worse one was even offered this offseason. For all we know, the Ravens could have him offered him precisely 0 contracts this offseason. 

 

The only things we do know that is that we had the opportunity to keep him if we wanted, and based on our perceived value of him and his perceived value of himself, he's no longer a member of this team. Everything else would be considered your opinion and nothing more.

[jazz1988]

LOL. Why does it matter what John wanted back in January when its June? I'll bet he wanted Pernell McPhee back too, but hes gone. I'll bet he wanted Paul Kruger and Ellerbe back too, but they gone. I'll bet he wanted Art Jones back too, but he gone. Wanting something doesn't really matter. 

 

My bolded statements can't even vaguely be construed as speculation. Torrey Smith is no longer a member of the Baltimore Ravens. That's a statement of fact. While the reason doesn't really matter, we know it basically wasn't due to a lack of cap space, because we have it and had it if we needed it. The choice to NOT pay Torrey what he was seeking was an organizational decision, and that's the very foundation for the word "unworthy". 

 

I guess Brandon Marshall was deem unworthy as well and it  was reported that The Ravens had interest in him especially if he was cut. I think Brandon Marshall was getting like 9 million at the time which is only one million more than what Torrey Smith is getting.  I think it's just quite obvious that The Ravens just didn't have the cap space to sign any top receiver or trade for one  and it's not like The Jets gave up alot to get Brandon Marshall either.

 

Torrey Smith actually said so him self on facebook page one of the reason why he wasn't back with The Ravens was due to their limited cap space.  Now I want to get back to those that hate on Dean Pees which can be understandable but I don't think the guy is  a terrible defensive cooridinator at all. I think he's a pretty intelligent defensive coordinator and he may not be aggressive like Rex Ryan or Chuck Pagano but The Ravens were ranked 8th overall in defense last year which got to mean something

Edited June 13, 2015 by jazz1988

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I guess Brandon Marshall was deem unworthy as well and it was reported that The Ravens had interest in him especially if he was cut. I think Brandon Marshall was getting like 9 million at the time which is only one million more than what Torrey Smith is getting. I think it's just quite obvious that The Ravens just didn't have the cap space to sign any top receiver or trade for one and it's not like The Jets gave up alot to get Brandon Marshall either.

Torrey Smith actually said so him self on facebook page one of the reason why he wasn't back with The Ravens was due to their limited cap space. Now I want to get back to those that hate on Dean Pees which can be understandable but I don't think the guy is a terrible defensive cooridinator at all. I think he's a pretty intelligent defensive coordinator and he may not be aggressive like Rex Ryan or Chuck Pagano but The Ravens were ranked 8th overall in defense last year which got to mean something

Torrey's not here because he wanted and got a bigger offer than the Ravens made.

The only relation between Torrey not being here and cap space is that clearly the Ravens didn't want to tie up the amount of cap space it would have taken to keep Torrey a Raven.

I'm sure they wanted him back, but not at what he cost. If the Ravens felt he was worth the 5 year $40 million that he got in San Fran they would have matched the offer. You can call it opinion but it's a fact that he's not here. They felt they could at least replace what Torrey did if not improve at the position for less money with players already on the roster and in the draft.

On the Brandon Marshall point - that was pure speculation and analysts just connecting dots to try and find a logical landing spot once it was clear he wouldn't be in Chicago.

The FO clearly had a plan for addressing the WR position and they executed it. They didn't feel bringing Torrey back was a priority especially when his price tag exceeded the number they valued him at. Right player right price as always.

[rmcjacket23]

I guess Brandon Marshall was deem unworthy as well and it  was reported that The Ravens had interest in him especially if he was cut. I think Brandon Marshall was getting like 9 million at the time which is only one million more than what Torrey Smith is getting.  I think it's just quite obvious that The Ravens just didn't have the cap space to sign any top receiver or trade for one  and it's not like The Jets gave up alot to get Brandon Marshall either.

 

Torrey Smith actually said so him self on facebook page one of the reason why he wasn't back with The Ravens was due to their limited cap space.  Now I want to get back to those that hate on Dean Pees which can be understandable but I don't think the guy is  a terrible defensive cooridinator at all. I think he's a pretty intelligent defensive coordinator and he may not be aggressive like Rex Ryan or Chuck Pagano but The Ravens were ranked 8th overall in defense last year which got to mean something

Two completely different scenarios obviously. We had basically four full years to exclusively negotiate with Torrey Smith where zero other teams could. There was no situation recently where the Ravens were even given the opportunity to speak with Brandon Marshall about joining their team. The financial side of bringing him in was merely a piece of the puzzle. So yes, in a way, the combination of the financial burden and the draft pick compensation required to get him made him unworthy to be a Raven.

[beasy2487]

Cool. He joins the long, long, long list of ex-Ravens who John Harbaugh wishes he still had on this team. Not a less relevant concept in this world than that. This is a football team, not a Christmas list.

If you want to play the "speculation" game, most of what you said above was speculation. Saying we even offered him a contract this offseason is speculation, because it lacks evidence that we did. The only thing that can even vaguely be considered "factual" in terms of what contract offers we made to him was an alleged $7M per year offer made a full season prior. We don't know if that offer was real, nor do we know if the same offer or a better or worse one was even offered this offseason. For all we know, the Ravens could have him offered him precisely 0 contracts this offseason.

The only things we do know that is that we had the opportunity to keep him if we wanted, and based on our perceived value of him and his perceived value of himself, he's no longer a member of this team. Everything else would be considered your opinion and nothing more.

That's the beauty of debate. You represent your opinion, base it on the evidence available and accept that you may be wrong. Sadly that requires humility which is...a foreign concept on one side of this discussion.

To get back to the point I was originally making before the speculative wisdom parade, Torrey played well for us and he deserves respect. If showing a good man respect for doing his best and helping us win our second SB is a "love fest" as you so brilliantly put it in your strange rebuttal, then I'm ok with that—as my opinion.

[Inqui]

That's the beauty of debate. You represent your opinion, base it on the evidence available and accept that you may be wrong. Sadly that requires humility which is...a foreign concept on one side of this discussion.

To get back to the point I was originally making before the speculative wisdom parade, Torrey played well for us and he deserves respect. If showing a good man respect for doing his best and helping us win our second SB is a "love fest" as you so brilliantly put it in your strange rebuttal, then I'm ok with that—as my opinion.

I agree he deserves respect, but I wouldn't say it's bashing him to say that he isn't as good as Jimmy and that we'd sign Jimmy over him. Hell, given the limited cap space you mentioned earlier that's what we actually did.

[Adreme]

I agree he deserves respect, but I wouldn't say it's bashing him to say that he isn't as good as Jimmy and that we'd sign Jimmy over him. Hell, given the limited cap space you mentioned earlier that's what we actually did.

 

There is also a really easy way to show that most of the NFL beleive Jimmy is better and that is that almost everyone in the NFL believes the Ravens got a great deal with Jimmy who is making more then the 49ers paid Torrey and that contract is at best market value and honestly I would say probably slightly overpaid for what he is though fast WR typically do get overpaid.  So if the team considers him better and the experts who loved the contract thereby consider him better how can we say they are even close to the same.

 

Also before people say that corners usually get more I believe the corner franchise tag is actually 1M lower then the WR one which means top WR get paid more then top corners.

 

Also on the topic of Pees, I think he gets a lot of flak from people who just want the Ravens to blitz on every play but honestly the Ravens already suffered from being the team with most long passes completed against them in the NFL so the last thing that would help that is sending more people to allow more potential openings.  Pees understands that you have to base your defense on the roster you have not the roster you wish you had and its probably the only reason the Ravens were able to salvage there defense with honestly a horrible secondary.

[beasy2487]

I agree he deserves respect, but I wouldn't say it's bashing him to say that he isn't as good as Jimmy and that we'd sign Jimmy over him. Hell, given the limited cap space you mentioned earlier that's what we actually did.

2 points:

-We got Jimmy at a serious discount. He easily could've played out his contract like Torrey and Joe did and gotten more money. Jimmy, unlike Torrey decided to stay with the Ravens and reward their faith in him which might have to do with the fact that he's somewhat injury prone and also because the fanbase didn't turn on him over nonsense

-I was never arguing that it was Torrey bashing to say we signed someone over Torrey. My point was that Torrey played well for us overall, we offered him a fair contract from our perspective and he took more money elsewhere.The notion that he was was "deemed unworthy" is pure pontification that is not substantiated by any record whatsoever.

Anyway, I do believe both parties are better off at this point. We now have more promising, although unproven talent at WR and Torrey got paid and can play in front of fans that stick by their players. I thought we were that type of fanbase but I've been proven wrong.

[K-Dog]

Amazing.

It seems EVERY thread is about Torrey now a days.

[beasy2487]

Amazing.

It seems EVERY thread is about Torrey now a days.

June in Ravens land. Torrey, Elam, Pees or rookies...take your pick lol.

[ludy51]

June in Ravens land. Torrey, Elam, Pees or rookies...take your pick lol.

You forgot about harbaughs doghouse

[beasy2487]

You forgot about harbaughs doghouse

Haha fair point.

[rmcjacket23]

2 points:

-We got Jimmy at a serious discount. He easily could've played out his contract like Torrey and Joe did and gotten more money. Jimmy, unlike Torrey decided to stay with the Ravens and reward their faith in him which might have to do with the fact that he's somewhat injury prone and also because the fanbase didn't turn on him over nonsense

-I was never arguing that it was Torrey bashing to say we signed someone over Torrey. My point was that Torrey played well for us overall, we offered him a fair contract from our perspective and he took more money elsewhere.The notion that he was was "deemed unworthy" is pure pontification that is not substantiated by any record whatsoever.

Anyway, I do believe both parties are better off at this point. We now have more promising, although unproven talent at WR and Torrey got paid and can play in front of fans that stick by their players. I thought we were that type of fanbase but I've been proven wrong.

1. We MIGHT have gotten Jimmy at a significant discount... impossible to know right now. If we let him play it out under the the option, and he shows he doesn't recover well for what is one of the toughest injuries to recover from in the sport, or he simply gets another long-term, there's a 0% chance he gets a contract offer from any team in the league in the ballpark of what we gave him. More likely, in that scenario, its more likely he goes to FA or gets resigned by this franchise at substantially less money (probably half or less), most likely on a one-year "prove it deal". That's fairly customary in the NFL these days. Make no mistake... this contract is a gamble by both parties, not just by Jimmy. 

 

2. As I stated earlier, make sure you understand that this concept of "we offered him a contract we deemed fair" is also pontification that is not substantiated by any record whatsoever either. There's a unsubstantiated "report" of a contract offer prior to last season, and there is no evidence that a contract offer was made this offseason. That's pure speculation.

[rmcjacket23]

June in Ravens land. Torrey, Elam, Pees or rookies...take your pick lol.

As is with my point... I'd rather pick talking about the latter three (or even the phantom Harbaugh doghouse, which doesn't actually exist). The latter three will help the 2015 Ravens in some form or fashion, whereas Torrey simply will not. 

 

We don't need another two years of fans crying about Torrey leaving just like they did with Boldin. Torrey was praised when he played well and criticized when he didn't, and unfortunately for him, criticism was probably the last memory we have of him. But it doesn't matter, because he's gone.

[ravensdfan]

Yeah, I don't think Pees is phenomenal by any means, but I don't think he's holding us back.  The fact that the SB defense won the SB is pretty convincing testimony. That defensive front was so weak, and he still made it work.  

 

Ray and Ed made it work.

Pees isn't a bum but he's as average as average gets.I mean really,we have a stud at every position in the front seven and a whole bunch of big money contracts and first round picks in the secondary.How have we not been top 5 atleast ONCE?I wish he had some of the aggressiveness and creativity that Pagano and Rex Ryan brought to our defense.

 

 

Hopefully Arthur Brown never sees the field this year.Also,we have alot of unproven players on our D-Line and in our passing game so I consider those to be the two weak links.

Not a bum but pretty much Cam Cam level. He IS holding the defense back.

[Adreme]

Ray and Ed made it work.

Not a bum but pretty much Cam Cam level. He IS holding the defense back.

 

The only reason the Ravens were not a top 5 defense is because they could not stop the deep ball and no matter how great your front 7 is they cant stop the deep ball from going out.  Every move in the offseason on defense was designed to fix the fact that the Ravens gave up the most deep passes in the NFL and if they fix that they are a top 3 NFL defense for sure.

[JoeyFlex5]

Ray and Ed made it work.

Not a bum but pretty much Cam Cam level. He IS holding the defense back.

youre wrong. let me guess, ur another one of those that are unhappy with any DC that doesnt send the house on every snap? 

 

youre getting pees mixed up with greg mattison. he coordinates a great blend of coverage and blitz, he has a nice little catalog of exotic formations, he makes great usage of his base formation but unfortunately he had to run nickel formation a ridiculous amount this year and the secondary failed to execute in a major way. 

 

if our secondary was just slightly below average then we probably go to the SB, but our secondary was WORSE than below average, it was nothing short of pitiful and was probably the worst in the league. the fact that our scoring defense finished where it did is nothing short of a miracle, and pees' masterful coordination played a large part in that, he did everything in his power to mask our atrocious secondary and it worked wonderfully until bellichick and brady found a way to expose us in the 2nd half of that divisional game

[January J]

I don't think I've ever heard harbaugh say straight up that he didn't want a player back. ESP not a guy like Torrey who was so involved in the community. Would have been stupid for him to do so. However I also don't think he was deemed unworthy. Both sides couldn't reach an agreement. Simple as that. It's not that deep.

[rmcjacket23]

I don't think I've ever heard harbaugh say straight up that he didn't want a player back. ESP not a guy like Torrey who was so involved in the community. Would have been stupid for him to do so. However I also don't think he was deemed unworthy. Both sides couldn't reach an agreement. Simple as that. It's not that deep.

LOL, its not hard to understand this "unworthy" concept. 

 

If we assign a value to a player, and that player believes that value is too low, and he goes elsewhere, by definition, he was unworthy of being retained at the value the player determined. Its not that complicated, nor is it something that's up for interpretation or debate. 

[Tru11]

You're talking about losing one guy who in the game and replacing him with the fourth string corner who has practiced for 20 weeks with the team and has played in sub packages, but I'm the one underestimating the practice and game time value. Yeah, okay

 

im not talking about that ,  try again.

[BmoreBird22]

im not talking about that ,  try again.

the premise of what you're saying is that it's better to lose a guy before the game because then the backup has time to prepare to play, but if you're in the NFL and not preparing to play every week, there's something wrong. Let's also not forget that Tharold Simon saw time in 10 games during the regular season and bad five starts. He got significant time against Carolina in the playoffs.

In no way is the Ravens situation comparable to the Seahawks

[January J]

LOL, its not hard to understand this "unworthy" concept.

If we assign a value to a player, and that player believes that value is too low, and he goes elsewhere, by definition, he was unworthy of being retained at the value the player determined. Its not that complicated, nor is it something that's up for interpretation or debate.

not worthy or just not affordable ? I'm sure he was worthy enough to be a raven if he would have excepted a lower offer. Some players are released for a variety of reasons- they might not fit a new scheme the team is implementing, the team may want to get younger etc. doesn't mean they are deemed unworthy. I don't need to hear your definitions. Who knows? Maybe trestman just wanted a fresh start with a young guy that he could mold to his liking. I think it was time for Torrey to move on- however saying he was unworthy is just a bit of a stretch. And yes I know- Nothing is ever up for debate with you because you are "all knowing". Not a good look. "Unworthy of being retained at the value the player determined" is a lot different than just "unworthy ". Dez Bryant is threatening to sit out if he isn't given a new contract... If they decide not to give him 1 , is he unworthy of being a Dallas cowboy? Just bc a player has unreasonable expectations of money doesn't mean the organization thinks they are unworthy of being on the team, or else he would have been cut. Being cut and disagreeing over a contract is 2 different things in my book. Edited June 14, 2015 by January J

[TXRavensFan]

LOL, its not hard to understand this "unworthy" concept. 

 

If we assign a value to a player, and that player believes that value is too low, and he goes elsewhere, by definition, he was unworthy of being retained at the value the player determined. Its not that complicated, nor is it something that's up for interpretation or debate. 

 

I have to LOL at this especially the part about "nor is it something that's up for interpretation or debate," as your entire premise is based on an assumption that is definitely debatable. Namely, that affordability is equivalent to worth. I suggest that there are many factors that determine if a player is affordable to a team, including (but not limited to) cap space.

 

Simply put, you are assuming that not being able to afford the market value for a player is necessarily the same as the team deciding the player is not worth that market value. Of course, there may be times that this is the case (or that a team decides that a player is no longer worth their contract); however, that is not necessarily the case. For example, let's say JJ Watt's contract is up and the going price is $15M/yr (for the sake of argument). If the Ravens do not make an offer for him, do you think they're saying "he's not worth the price" or "based on our cap situation, we can't afford that price?"

 

Regardless of whether or not Smith was offered a contract, the fact that the Ravens did not match a 5 yr/ $40M deal for him does not automatically indicate that the Ravens decided he was "unworthy" of such a contract. Further, it is definitely not something that is not "up for interpretation or debate."

[Ravensfan23]

youre wrong. let me guess, ur another one of those that are unhappy with any DC that doesnt send the house on every snap? 

 

youre getting pees mixed up with greg mattison. he coordinates a great blend of coverage and blitz, he has a nice little catalog of exotic formations, he makes great usage of his base formation but unfortunately he had to run nickel formation a ridiculous amount this year and the secondary failed to execute in a major way. 

 

if our secondary was just slightly below average then we probably go to the SB, but our secondary was WORSE than below average, it was nothing short of pitiful and was probably the worst in the league. the fact that our scoring defense finished where it did is nothing short of a miracle, and pees' masterful coordination played a large part in that, he did everything in his power to mask our atrocious secondary and it worked wonderfully until bellichick and brady found a way to expose us in the 2nd half of that divisional game

 

I too have been hard on Pees at times but I think he's a really good DC overall. I have questioned some of his decision in games, but I have a personal crusade against the Organizational Philosophy that we've held on to since the 2000 Championship and I think Pees has been a victim of it as well. As good as this defense is or could be, the days of holding offenses to an average of 12 points and less then 150 yards per game are over. The NFL just won't allow it anymore. The Ravens still take the approach the that defense only needs a 10 point lead to win games. Because of that I think Pees actually is given permission to go into those prevent defenses mid way through the 3rd quarter in some cases. But all of this is in the regular season, because just like with the offense, the Defense plays so much different in the playoffs.

 

If you look at the playoffs or even games against teams like the Steelers, the defense comes out aggressive and stays that way in fear of the comeback. However in the regular season, it seems like from the opening drive the Ravens are looking to get up by 10 and "let the defense and strong run game close it". So Pees goes into a "just don't let the deep ball beat you" mode and in most cases it allows the other team to stay in the game because the offense starts to stall out.

 

If the game plan becomes to put your foot on the opponents throat and don't let up until they tap out, I think we'd see Pees stay aggressive much longer in games. Pees has seemed to have his hands tied since becoming the DC. One year (2012) you have a depleted front 7, losing arguably your top 3 defensive players in Suggs, Lewis and Webb. Then seeing Reed, Ngata and Smith held back by injuries. In 2013 the entire team was snake bitten by injuries and you had to deal with the whole "Life without Ray Lewis" thing and last season, injuries ripped through the secondary forcing Pees to try and run those complex coverage schemes with a revolving cast. I'm very interested to seeing what Pees can do with a full deck. 

[ravensdfan]

youre wrong. let me guess, ur another one of those that are unhappy with any DC that doesnt send the house on every snap? 

 

youre getting pees mixed up with greg mattison. he coordinates a great blend of coverage and blitz, he has a nice little catalog of exotic formations, he makes great usage of his base formation but unfortunately he had to run nickel formation a ridiculous amount this year and the secondary failed to execute in a major way. 

 

if our secondary was just slightly below average then we probably go to the SB, but our secondary was WORSE than below average, it was nothing short of pitiful and was probably the worst in the league. the fact that our scoring defense finished where it did is nothing short of a miracle, and pees' masterful coordination played a large part in that, he did everything in his power to mask our atrocious secondary and it worked wonderfully until bellichick and brady found a way to expose us in the 2nd half of that divisional game

He's not on the Mattison level no doubt. Man he was bad.

 

Every year it is the excuses for Pees. Every year someone predicts how we'll be a Top 5 defense - and then, we aren't. What are the excuses for the other years Pees was here?

 

This year we gave the offense the love and while I'm aware we're dealing with change at OC, I expect them to improve, not decline. The previous 3 years we gave the defense the love and stayed status quo or declined. That isn't above average at DC in anyone's book.

[jazz1988]

He's not on the Mattison level no doubt. Man he was bad.

 

Every year it is the excuses for Pees. Every year someone predicts how we'll be a Top 5 defense - and then, we aren't. What are the excuses for the other years Pees was here?

 

This year we gave the offense the love and while I'm aware we're dealing with change at OC, I expect them to improve, not decline. The previous 3 years we gave the defense the love and stayed status quo or declined. That isn't above average at DC in anyone's book.

 

I could be wrong but I think The Ravens were ranked 8th overall in defense  last year. Now if they actually had a better secondary then it's quite possible the defense would have been ranked higher.  If every body able to stay healthy this time in the  secondary and the defensive line can continue being a terror to quarterbacks then it's quite possible The Ravens defense can be ranked higher than last year.

[Adreme]

He's not on the Mattison level no doubt. Man he was bad.

 

Every year it is the excuses for Pees. Every year someone predicts how we'll be a Top 5 defense - and then, we aren't. What are the excuses for the other years Pees was here?

 

This year we gave the offense the love and while I'm aware we're dealing with change at OC, I expect them to improve, not decline. The previous 3 years we gave the defense the love and stayed status quo or declined. That isn't above average at DC in anyone's book.

 

Im pretty sure having one of the worst secondaries in the NFL, excluding will hill, is a pretty good excuse to not be a top 5 defense and finishing 8th was amazing considering and the only reason they werent in the top 5 was because of course the secondary that was starting other teams  practice squad players gave up the most deep passes in the NFL and there is no real excuse for that.

[JoeyFlex5]

He's not on the Mattison level no doubt. Man he was bad.

 

Every year it is the excuses for Pees. Every year someone predicts how we'll be a Top 5 defense - and then, we aren't. What are the excuses for the other years Pees was here?

 

This year we gave the offense the love and while I'm aware we're dealing with change at OC, I expect them to improve, not decline. The previous 3 years we gave the defense the love and stayed status quo or declined. That isn't above average at DC in anyone's book.

were not making excuses for pees, were providing the legitimate reasons. we werent a top 5 defense but we were top 10, and the fact that we were THAT good is a miracle, it isnt an excuse for not being top 5, its a reason for not being top 5 when we say the secondary was a dumpster fire. the year before im not sure what happened, but i do recall late game collapses that looked like failed execution almost every single time, missed tackles on 3rd and short and what not, and this is while dealing with massive turnover on the defense, elam was starting at FS, darian stewart was starting at SS, josh bynes and arthur brown and albert mclellan were rotating at ILB next to daryl smith, chris canty and marcus spears were quite disappointing in their debut years here. 

 

these arent excuses for pees' averageness, theyre legitimate reasons in my eyes. its only been 2 seasons since the mass exodus and we made a massive jump from year 1 to year 2, while dealing with a practice squad secondary, barring injuries i see no reason pees truly wont be coaching a top 5 squad this year, like i said though, barring injuries, and assuming players can execute(guys like ZD smith, kendrick lewis, kyle arrington, carl davis, brent urban, etc.)

[ludy51]

I don't care how we rank in yards. At the end of the day I want to be first in points.

Edited June 14, 2015 by ludy51

[rmcjacket23]

I don't care how we rank in yards. At the end of the day I want to be first in points.

One typically tends to correlate positively with the other. If you give up a lot of yards, generally speaking, you give up a lot of points, and vice versa.