No purple shades here...

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I didn't watch Talib play much last year because I didn't watch that many Broncos games,but 2 years ago Belicheck used Talib to cover Jimmy Graham and he shut him down.Jimmy did a good job cover Megatron in the second half of that lions game but I'm not sure he could be used to take away a TE like Graham.IMO,Talib is the better player.

Taking one game and one assignment from each players career as the standard for comparison is a pretty silly metric.

Jimmy has limited Brown, Green, Julio Jones, Megatron, Demaryius Thomas, etc.. On a regular basis when playing healthy.

Health is the only legitimate knock on him at this point. In almost every metric - yards per target, yards per completion, total completions, TDs when in coverage, YAC, QB rating when targeted - Jimmy was rated among the top 3-4 in the league over the past 2 years.

[baltimorefan328]

Torrey was a great player for the Ravens. No he didn't develop into that #1 WR the Ravens have never had, but he was a great player for what the Ravens needed during his time here. However, the difference between Jimmy and Torrey is this:

 

     When Torrey is healthy and playing well, guys like Haden, or Revis, or Sherman can likely still shut Torrey down for the most part because his complete game just wasnt developed enough.

 

     When Jimmy is healthy, he locks down or at least minimizes guys like AJ Green, Calvin Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, or Jordie Nelson.

 

When healthy, both are/were very good players for the Ravens, but I'd rather take my chances on a guy who locks down the best when healthy than a guy who still gets locked down by the best

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

Taking one game and one assignment from each players career as the standard for comparison is a pretty silly metric.

Jimmy has limited Brown, Green, Julio Jones, Megatron, Demaryius Thomas, etc.. On a regular basis when playing healthy.

Health is the only legitimate knock on him at this point. In almost every metric - yards per target, yards per completion, total completions, TDs when in coverage, YAC, QB rating when targeted - Jimmy was rated among the top 3-4 in the league over the past 2 years.

 

 

That wasn't my intention at all.I was really using that game/assignment as an example to show BB22 that Talib isn't a stationary CB since he said he didn't move much with the Broncos.And Jimmy didn't play that many snaps against those guys so it's not fair to say he was the one slowing them down.He does a good job shutting down his side,but he never leaves his side and thats a valid knock when it comes to comparing him to guys who trail a teams biggest threat.

Edited June 12, 2015 by HomeoftheBRAVENS

[BmoreBird22]

That wasn't my intention at all.I was really using that game/assignment as an example to show BB22 that Talib isn't a stationary CB since he said he didn't move much with the Broncos.And Jimmy didn't play that many snaps against those guys so it's not fair to say he was the one slowing them down.He does a good job shutting down his side,but he never leaves his side and thats a valid knock when it comes to comparing him to guys who trail a teams biggest threat.

He shifted around a pretty fair amount in 2014 before his injury. I don't know if he was shadowing per say, but he was switching sides a lot

[codizzle]

It's harris,revis, Sherman and everyone else

Jimmy is in that next tier of top cb's

But with WR I could list a lot of WR's I'd place over Torrey if we're comparing 1v1

[Inqui]

It's harris,revis, Sherman and everyone else

Jimmy is in that next tier of top cb's

But with WR I could list a lot of WR's I'd place over Torrey if we're comparing 1v1

I know this is a thread for taking off the purple shades, but I'd put Jimmy over Sherman - unless you're including health, in which case I wouldn't begrudge anyone putting Sherman higher (much...). But the fact that it's even a discussion says enough about the Jimmy/Torrey discussion (I still can't believe this is the topic atm. Like I said, Matt Millen's the only GM I could name who'd pay Torrey more).

[CalvinSmoke]

Can we stop bashing Torrey? He was great for us, better than Boldin really, it's time to stop disrespecting the guy. He gave us everything he had and gave us some very memorable moments!

[beasy2487]

That wasn't my intention at all.I was really using that game/assignment as an example to show BB22 that Talib isn't a stationary CB since he said he didn't move much with the Broncos.And Jimmy didn't play that many snaps against those guys so it's not fair to say he was the one slowing them down.He does a good job shutting down his side,but he never leaves his side and thats a valid knock when it comes to comparing him to guys who trail a teams biggest threat.

Sherman doesn't switch even slightly and he has elite safety play behind him. Jimmy sits on an island in the truest sense. Will Hill shut down Graham...is he suddenly the best cover safety in the game? No. Imo the only corners that are flat out better are Chris Harris and Revis. Harris gets the nod because of his ability to create turnovers without elite talent around him and Revis because he's been doing it game in and game out for years regardless of team/scheme. Talib is declining by the minute, Peterson lacks discipline, and Haden redefines overrated.

I understand being contrary but saying Jimmy isn't an elite corner just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. At least he's on par with Sherman, at most he's top 3.

Edited June 12, 2015 by beasy2487

[FastEddie]

Can we stop bashing Torrey? He was great for us, better than Boldin really, it's time to stop disrespecting the guy. He gave us everything he had and gave us some very memorable moments!

 

Not going to go there, but Torrey did some good things for us...not great

[CalvinSmoke]

Sherman doesn't switch even slightly and he has elite safety play behind him. Jimmy sits on an island in the truest sense. Will Hill shut down Graham...is he suddenly the best cover safety in the game? No. Imo the only corners that are flat out better are Chris Harris and Revis. Harris gets the nod because of his ability to create turnovers without elite talent around him and Revis because he's been doing it game in and game out for years regardless of team/scheme. Talib is declining by the minute, Peterson lacks discipline, and Haden redefines overrated.

I understand being contrary but saying Jimmy isn't an elite corner just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. At least he's on par with Sherman, at most he's top 3.

you ignoring a beast of a corner in Indy

[beasy2487]

Not going to go there, but Torrey did some good things for us...not great

A second round, project track athlete with questionable hands came in, provided us with solid #2 receiver play, had multiple huge games on the way to the Super Bowl, which he was integral in helping us win. And was a model citizen and leader in the community to boot. He let us down last year, sure but he made great -- yes great -- contributions in his time here. Backhanded compliments are not necessary.

Folks around here need to stop. It's disgraceful.

[FastEddie]

A second round, project track athlete with questionable hands came in, provided us with solid #2 receiver play, had multiple huge games on the way to the Super Bowl, which he was integral in helping us win. And was a model citizen and leader in the community to boot. He let us down last year, sure but he made great -- yes great -- contributions in his time here. Backhanded compliments are not necessary.

Folks around here need to stop. It's disgraceful.

 

I wouldn't say my comment was a backhanded compliment as you claim, just my opinion as a fan.

 

I personally have only seen his speed playing a factor in games for us and have never been impressed with his hands and route running. A wide receiver should be able to run routes, have consistent hands, and make contested catches...I mean that's what they get paid millions to do in a football game.

 

Sorry, but that's the reality of the Torrey's contributions and would classify Boldin as a higher talent than Torrey everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

I know this is a thread for taking off the purple shades, but I'd put Jimmy over Sherman - unless you're including health, in which case I wouldn't begrudge anyone putting Sherman higher (much...). But the fact that it's even a discussion says enough about the Jimmy/Torrey discussion (I still can't believe this is the topic atm. Like I said, Matt Millen's the only GM I could name who'd pay Torrey more).

 

 

Jimmy being on par with Sherman is only a discussion that would happen between Ravens fans.Just like the "our passing game is so dangerous" and "Joe Flacco is elite"(oh lord I'm really taking off my purple shades now) discussions only happen on Ravens forums.No one else even entertains the idea of Jimmy being that high.I challenge you to find one non ravens affiliated article where he's mentioned as a top five CB.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

With my last comment being said,I would love for Jimmy to prove me wrong and go out and have a career year that would put him in the conversation with guys like Revis,Sherman,Petterson and Davis.

[BmoreBird22]

Jimmy being on par with Sherman is only a discussion that would happen between Ravens fans.Just like the "our passing game is so dangerous" and "Joe Flacco is elite"(oh lord I'm really taking off my purple shades now) discussions only happen on Ravens forums.No one else even entertains the idea of Jimmy being that high.I challenge you to find one non ravens affiliated article where he's mentioned as a top five CB.

It actually is a pretty well recognized argument as of late because of Sherman playing in a cover 3 zone scheme and staying on one side of the field. He also has elite safeties. I'll try to find the BR.com article, but somehow scouted how often the corners were beat and how often they were targeted and allowed receptions and he said Jimmy was the best corner back in this area for the 8 weeks he was healthy, bar none, and called Jimmy the best corner back of those 8 weeks

[rmcjacket23]

A second round, project track athlete with questionable hands came in, provided us with solid #2 receiver play, had multiple huge games on the way to the Super Bowl, which he was integral in helping us win. And was a model citizen and leader in the community to boot. He let us down last year, sure but he made great -- yes great -- contributions in his time here. Backhanded compliments are not necessary.

Folks around here need to stop. It's disgraceful.

We can also stop with the Torrey lovefest also. He's not on this team anymore because we didn't view him as an integral enough asset to this team to pay him market value. Its pretty rare that the truly "great" Ravens are allowed to walk while they are still "great". We let good players walk on an annual basis, but rarely great players.

 

He played well for us overall in four seasons, and we deemed him unworthy of keeping. Its that simple.

[rmcjacket23]

Jimmy being on par with Sherman is only a discussion that would happen between Ravens fans.Just like the "our passing game is so dangerous" and "Joe Flacco is elite"(oh lord I'm really taking off my purple shades now) discussions only happen on Ravens forums.No one else even entertains the idea of Jimmy being that high.I challenge you to find one non ravens affiliated article where he's mentioned as a top five CB.

Top five? Jimmy might be in that group, but most people (like me) knock him down a peg or two because he's not consistently healthy, and you really can't be a top 5 corner with as small a sample size as Jimmy has.

 

But top five doesn't put him in the group with Sherman, because Sherman's arguably #1 or at worst #2. You've got all-world QBs who voluntarily admit that they don't throw the ball in his area. There's no greater compliment or recognition of the skill sets of a player on this planet then when your peers (who know exponentially more football than we do) on another team go out of their way to recognize your skills. No different than the now-famous video of Belichick and Brady discussing at length how much Ed Reed affected their strategy on the field. You don't have to go to box scores or stat lines or any of that to recognize the best players in this league most of the time... just listen to what their opponents tell you. They're the people who play against these guys and they are the people who would know.

 

Jimmy likely has the ability to get to that level, but he's not there yet. He's got to show it for a longer period of time, and above all else, actually be healthy.

[jazz1988]

Arthur Brown??? No way he breaks out unless Daryl Smith or Mosley gets hurt because if not there's no way Brown even sees the field.

 

I think Brown has to see the field this year especially if he continues to impress the coaches like Pees was saying.  Brown is  a second rounder in which The Ravens traded up for in 2013. You have to give a high invest such as Brown a chance to see the field or face the fact that you wasted a second round pick on a player for absolutely nothing.

[beasy2487]

We can also stop with the Torrey lovefest also. He's not on this team anymore because we didn't view him as an integral enough asset to this team to pay him market value. Its pretty rare that the truly "great" Ravens are allowed to walk while they are still "great". We let good players walk on an annual basis, but rarely great players.

 

He played well for us overall in four seasons, and we deemed him unworthy of keeping. Its that simple.

 

John Harbaugh Wants Torrey Smith Back: 

 

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/John-Harbaugh-Wants-Torrey-Smith-Back/3a2d9b3f-4170-47ed-8015-d389ffa99afc

 

Your bolded comment sounds like blatant speculation to me given the facts, unless you speak with Ozzie and Harbs personally but I doubt that. I support good guys that play well for this team. If that's a "lovefest" so be it.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Jimmy being on par with Sherman is only a discussion that would happen between Ravens fans.Just like the "our passing game is so dangerous" and "Joe Flacco is elite"(oh lord I'm really taking off my purple shades now) discussions only happen on Ravens forums.No one else even entertains the idea of Jimmy being that high.I challenge you to find one non ravens affiliated article where he's mentioned as a top five CB.

 

That's because they dont know Jimmy yet. They will.

 

PFF does more than just entertain the idea, last season they flat out said it. I dont have a subscription, but if someone that does could find the article(s) from last season prior to his injury please post.

 

And why does it matter if fans outside of Baltimore would entertain the idea? If his play and statistics back it up then what else is there? And clearly opposing QB's know about Jimmy, he's been one of the least frequently targeted corners the past 2 years.

 

You likely wont find a huge number of people outside of Denver (other than those that really pay attention to football) that would put Harris among the top CBs in the league; yet he was hands down the best in the league last year.

 

And the fact that Talib entered this conversation tells me that your perception of best CB's has more to do with name recognition and past memories than what players actually played the best on Sundays in 2014.

[Tru11]

I'm just saying that there is a major inherent difference and the fact that the Ravens were able to do about as well as the Seahawks secondary is very impressive. Sure, they had injuries, just like every single team in the NFL. There's were admittedly some bigger injuries than you're likely to hear about on a normal basis, but it's not like they missed tons of games and then came back just for the Super Bowl. These injuries did not hold any of them back.

 

okay tnx for telling what I already knew months ago I guess...

 

BTW you missed a very crucial point though.

The ravens injuries occurred a few weeks prior to the pats match up.

This means they had more then enough time to deal with this and thus be better prepared.

our secondary actually played a few games together and they did pretty well against the steelers the week prior.

I might be wrong but im pretty we did not loose any player against the pats.

 

the hawks however lost their nickel corner during the actually game on top of already had other players banged up going into the game.

 

call me crazy but its probably much harder to deal with an injury during the game itself rather then having some time to prepare to play with out the injured player(s).

[BmoreBird22]

okay tnx for telling what I already knew months ago I guess...

 

BTW you missed a very crucial point though.

The ravens injuries occurred a few weeks prior to the pats match up.

This means they had more then enough time to deal with this and thus be better prepared.

our secondary actually played a few games together and they did pretty well against the steelers the week prior.

I might be wrong but im pretty we did not loose any player against the pats.

 

the hawks however lost their nickel corner during the actually game on top of already had other players banged up going into the game.

 

call me crazy but its probably much harder to deal with an injury during the game itself rather then having some time to prepare to play with out the injured player(s).

That's not a very good point because it's not like the Ravens lost one guy like the Seahawks did. The Ravens literally lost their one, three, four, and five and were pulling players off of another teams practice squad to be a starter. They had little to no tape on him outside of preseason games and college footage, which was at that point two years old. 

If you asked a team would they rather lose their one, three, four, and five for an extended period of time or lose their nickel back in game, but retain their one two, and both starting safeties who happen to be some of the best at their positions, they would pick the latter. 

It's night and day difference in terms of situation.

[Tru11]

That's not a very good point because it's not like the Ravens lost one guy like the Seahawks did. The Ravens literally lost their one, three, four, and five and were pulling players off of another teams practice squad to be a starter. They had little to no tape on him outside of preseason games and college footage, which was at that point two years old. 

If you asked a team would they rather lose their one, three, four, and five for an extended period of time or lose their nickel back in game, but retain their one two, and both starting safeties who happen to be some of the best at their positions, they would pick the latter. 

It's night and day difference in terms of situation.

 

im not arguing about who they lost.

 

im arguing when they lost their players.

 

ravens lost their players well before the played the pats.

heck Melvin started against the jags which was 4 weeks before they played the pats.

that's 5 weeks of practice and 4 games worth of experience.

 

that beats losing a guy in the actual game.

 

you are seriously underestimating how valuable practice with the starters , being part of the game plan and actually playing games with the starters is comparing to going into the line up in the middle of the game without neither of the before mentioned.

[gabefergy]

I think most of us know Pees is much better DC than people give him credit for.

[The Raven]

I think most of us know Pees is much better DC than people give him credit for.

 

That's quite optimistic of you to think that.

[gabefergy]

That's quite optimistic of you to think that.

You're right, I should know better.

[rmcjacket23]

John Harbaugh Wants Torrey Smith Back: 

 

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/John-Harbaugh-Wants-Torrey-Smith-Back/3a2d9b3f-4170-47ed-8015-d389ffa99afc

 

Your bolded comment sounds like blatant speculation to me given the facts, unless you speak with Ozzie and Harbs personally but I doubt that. I support good guys that play well for this team. If that's a "lovefest" so be it.

LOL. Why does it matter what John wanted back in January when its June? I'll bet he wanted Pernell McPhee back too, but hes gone. I'll bet he wanted Paul Kruger and Ellerbe back too, but they gone. I'll bet he wanted Art Jones back too, but he gone. Wanting something doesn't really matter. 

 

My bolded statements can't even vaguely be construed as speculation. Torrey Smith is no longer a member of the Baltimore Ravens. That's a statement of fact. While the reason doesn't really matter, we know it basically wasn't due to a lack of cap space, because we have it and had it if we needed it. The choice to NOT pay Torrey what he was seeking was an organizational decision, and that's the very foundation for the word "unworthy". 

[BmoreBird22]

im not arguing about who they lost.

 

im arguing when they lost their players.

 

ravens lost their players well before the played the pats.

heck Melvin started against the jags which was 4 weeks before they played the pats.

that's 5 weeks of practice and 4 games worth of experience.

 

that beats losing a guy in the actual game.

 

you are seriously underestimating how valuable practice with the starters , being part of the game plan and actually playing games with the starters is comparing to going into the line up in the middle of the game without neither of the before mentioned.

You're talking about losing one guy who in the game and replacing him with the fourth string corner who has practiced for 20 weeks with the team and has played in sub packages, but I'm the one underestimating the practice and game time value. Yeah, okay

[beasy2487]

LOL. Why does it matter what John wanted back in January when its June? I'll bet he wanted Pernell McPhee back too, but hes gone. I'll bet he wanted Paul Kruger and Ellerbe back too, but they gone. I'll bet he wanted Art Jones back too, but he gone. Wanting something doesn't really matter.

My bolded statements can't even vaguely be construed as speculation. Torrey Smith is no longer a member of the Baltimore Ravens. That's a statement of fact. While the reason doesn't really matter, we know it basically wasn't due to a lack of cap space, because we have it and had it if we needed it. The choice to NOT pay Torrey what he was seeking was an organizational decision, and that's the very foundation for the word "unworthy".

Mincing words my friend. The fact is the record shows we wanted him back from Harbaugh's lips to God's ears. Someone else paid him more. We deemed him worthy of what we offered, he deemed himself worthy of more and so did the 9ers. Your statement has no basis in fact, hence speculation. Unless you have some knowledge outside of what is on the record, which you often purport to but I sincerely doubt, your comment on this matter is your opinion and nothing more.

[Adreme]

Mincing words my friend. The fact is the record shows we wanted him back from Harbaugh's lips to God's ears. Someone else paid him more. We deemed him worthy of what we offered, he deemed himself worthy of more and so did the 9ers. Your statement has no basis in fact, hence speculation. Unless you have some knowledge outside of what is on the record, which you often purport to but I sincerely doubt, your comment on this matter is your opinion and nothing more.

 

Never EVER trust what a coach says about a player because he will always say something like that even if it is not true.  

 

If he said anything else you basically risk losing the locker room which is the one thing you cant afford and more importantly John has a habit of talking down his great players and talking up his lesser players in order to keep the lesser players motivated and the great players from getting to cocky.  

 

Also just because someone gave him that much money does not make him worth that much.  Every year you see teams go out and overspend on free agent players who drastically under perform and while 5 years 40 million is not as backbreaking as some of the more noteworthy mistakes its still overpaying for what he did and what he is worth.  I know a lot of Ravens fans are not used to seeing it because the Ravens front office in general does not try to sign linchpin players in free agency because that honestly is almost as big a risk as the draft with a much bigger investment cost.