Best of the Division

[Purple_City39]

Can someone give me an argument other than his two rings as to why Ben is better than Joe?

Ben is simply a better QB under pressure.  If both have a great o-line then it's close.  If both have a garbage o-line then Ben is easily better.  Joe, unfortunately, has been one of the worst QBs when facing heavy pressure.  Every QB drops in performance but Joe has been near the bottom consistently in that aspect.  

 

Also, I'm taking AJ Green over Antonio Brown.  The QB argument is an important one as Ben and Dalton aren't even close.  Brown had the better season last year with the better QB.  The fact that Green was better the previous three years gives him a nice edge for me.  Also, last season Brown saw almost 70 more targets and Green missed 3 games while playing a few more noticeably injured.  Antonio Brown had the better 2014 but he's not the better receiver.

 

Also, I'm not sure I'd put KO over Bitonio.  I can't research run blocking performance, but Bitonio was better against the pass.

 

Osemele - 5 penalties and 3 sacks allowed for 28.5 lost yards.

Bitonio - 5 penalties and 1.5 sacks allowed for a 12.5 yard loss

 

It's close.  3 of Osemele's penalties were holding so that's 30 yards lost at least.  He has no false starts on record so I'm guessing the other 2 were personal fouls which would bring him to 60 lost yards.  Bitonio had 3 false starts so that's 15 yards, a holding, and I'm guessing a personal foul also.  That brings up to 40 lost yards.

 

I don't subscribe to PFF so I'm not sure how they rate against the run so maybe Osemele has a big advantage there.

[K-Dog]

Suggs said  "Taking down Ben is like taking down an oak tree "

 

I dont think the same can be said for Flacco.

 

As far as I am concerned, is so completely close for these two.

Flacco is better in some ways, Ben is better in some ways, with neither having any significant  advantage over the other or any one having a significant disadvantage. 

[CalvinSmoke]

Keyword being potential. And in a few years Joe could easily be considered a potential HOFer. It's not like Ben puts up crazy stats. I think he's had 1 maybe 2 really good years and a few average and a bunch of subpar ones where he missed a lot of games and/or the defense carried him. With one more ring Joe's career is pretty much on par with Ben's.

Torrey would be Torrey anywhere he went.

Ben's line hasn't always been good but he's often had much better weapons and also a great defense many years. Also Ben has never really shown the ability to consistently read and pick apart defense's from the pocket when his line does play good. He usually plays better when he has to make something happen.

I respect that, but I want to wait and see how Torrey does in San Francisco.if I'm wrong I'll say it wrong. Again I love me some Flacco, but I feel like I know what he is. We are focusing on his great games, but sometimes it's just down right ugly. I accept that, because as a Ravens fan I have seen SO much worse

[3-4ravdef509]

I respect that, but I want to wait and see how Torrey does in San Francisco.if I'm wrong I'll say it wrong. Again I love me some Flacco, but I feel like I know what he is. We are focusing on his great games, but sometimes it's just down right ugly. I accept that, because as a Ravens fan I have seen SO much worse

Living in pa and being forced to watch many Steelers games, let me tell you, Ben has his fair share of stinkers. He had a career year last year and got bested by Joe when it mattered most. Lets see if he can stack two good healthy years in a row.

As for Torrey, if the argument is he needs a better quarterback, he might fare worse this year. If he shows me wrong, I'll reconsider the reasons for this struggles here a little. But, if he does play better, it could have as much to do with being utilized better, or a change of scenery, or growth in his game as it could be the on field chemistry and play of his quarterback.

I can respect people who say they'd prefer Ben to Joe. I just have a hard time seeing the arguments that he's flat out better. In career comparisons, sure, but right now going into next year, the only thing Ben has as a huge advantage is a stacked offense.

[3-4ravdef509]

Ben is simply a better QB under pressure. If both have a great o-line then it's close. If both have a garbage o-line then Ben is easily better. Joe, unfortunately, has been one of the worst QBs when facing heavy pressure. Every QB drops in performance but Joe has been near the bottom consistently in that aspect.

Also, I'm taking AJ Green over Antonio Brown. The QB argument is an important one as Ben and Dalton aren't even close. Brown had the better season last year with the better QB. The fact that Green was better the previous three years gives him a nice edge for me. Also, last season Brown saw almost 70 more targets and Green missed 3 games while playing a few more noticeably injured. Antonio Brown had the better 2014 but he's not the better receiver.

Also, I'm not sure I'd put KO over Bitonio. I can't research run blocking performance, but Bitonio was better against the pass.

Osemele - 5 penalties and 3 sacks allowed for 28.5 lost yards.

Bitonio - 5 penalties and 1.5 sacks allowed for a 12.5 yard loss

It's close. 3 of Osemele's penalties were holding so that's 30 yards lost at least. He has no false starts on record so I'm guessing the other 2 were personal fouls which would bring him to 60 lost yards. Bitonio had 3 false starts so that's 15 yards, a holding, and I'm guessing a personal foul also. That brings up to 40 lost yards.

I don't subscribe to PFF so I'm not sure how they rate against the run so maybe Osemele has a big advantage there.

Did you watch the top 100 video of Joe this year? The Steelers players attested to his ability to beat heavy pressure. In 2012, many Patriot players said the same. I think the games where the pressure causes poor performance have as much to do with our receiver play as Joe's handling of the pressure.

I know what the numbers are on Joe's play against pressure but I feel they don't paint an accurate picture. If I wasn't at work I'd try and break it down more specifically, but in a nutshell, I think Joe plays against pressure much better than you're giving him credit for. That said, I already conceded Ben is better in that aspect. It seems, to me at least, that you rank that aspect of a quarterbacks game very highly. To me it's important to be good at it, but your don't need to great at it. Just because Ben is uniquely gifted in it, doesn't translate to me as him being the better quarterback.

Edited May 28, 2015 by 3-4ravdef509

[codizzle]

Antonio brown >>> AJ Green and it's not close

AB may prove to be the clear cut best WR in the league this year

I'd say he is after this past season

[Purple_City39]

Did you watch the top 100 video of Joe this year? The Steelers players attested to his ability to beat heavy pressure. In 2012, many Patriot players said the same. I think the games where the pressure causes poor performance have as much to do with our receiver play as Joe's handling of the pressure.

I know what the numbers are on Joe's play against pressure but I feel they don't paint an accurate picture. If I wasn't at work I'd try and break it down more specifically, but in a nutshell, I think Joe plays against pressure much better than you're giving him credit for. That said, I already conceded Ben is better in that aspect. It seems, to me at least, that you rank that aspect of a quarterbacks game very highly. To me it's important to be good at it, but your don't need to great at it. Just because Ben is uniquely gifted in it, doesn't translate to me as him being the better quarterback.

For the bolded, I think it's important but that's not the heaviest aspect for me.  Another big aspect is accuracy.  Joe has one season out of 7 where he threw for above 63% in completions with 3 in a row being under 60%.  Ben has 7 out of 11 over 63% and only 2 under 60%.  If Ben's career ended right now, when Joe reached the end of his 11th season Ben would still win this category.  

 

Now to be fair you can blame that on the Ravens inability to put great weapons, that stay healthy, around Joe where as Ben has gotten better talent (at the WR position, not o-line).  There's more but these are important ones, to me at least

[Cville-Raven]

Antonio brown >>> AJ Green and it's not close

AB may prove to be the clear cut best WR in the league this year

I'd say he is after this past season

Agreed, AJ likes to do some disappearance acts from time to time. 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I love Joe and I'd take him right now over almost every QB in the league. Not saying he's the best QB in the NFL because hes not... But imo he's the best QB for the Ravens and what we try to do on offense.

I think you have to say Ben is the best QB in the division right now, coming off a career year. Granted he has had FAR superior weapons which definitely helps him put up better statistics, but aside from 2013 Joe has recently had a much better offensive line. So both have an advantage over the other in regards to supporting cast. Where Ben has another advantage is that he's consistently had much better offensive coordinators and consistency in coaching and philosophy where Joe has had a revolving door of coaching which has to be accounted for when looking at his inconsistent play in the regular season.

Ben has been more consistent over the regular season, while Joe has outplayed pretty much everyone in the postseason.

It's a tough call. But going into the season I say Ben. After this coming season though I think Joe surpasses him and will be hands down the best QB in the division. Finally with some young weapons to grow with and talent across the board, and a little consistency in offensive scheme Joe's going to explode this year.

[3-4ravdef509]

I love Joe and I'd take him right now over almost every QB in the league. Not saying he's the best QB in the NFL because hes not... But imo he's the best QB for the Ravens and what we try to do on offense.

I think you have to say Ben is the best QB in the division right now, coming off a career year. Granted he has had FAR superior weapons which definitely helps him put up better statistics, but aside from 2013 Joe has recently had a much better offensive line. So both have an advantage over the other in regards to supporting cast. Where Ben has another advantage is that he's consistently had much better offensive coordinators and consistency in coaching and philosophy where Joe has had a revolving door of coaching which has to be accounted for when looking at his inconsistent play in the regular season.

Ben has been more consistent over the regular season, while Joe has outplayed pretty much everyone in the postseason.

It's a tough call. But going into the season I say Ben. After this coming season though I think Joe surpasses him and will be hands down the best QB in the division. Finally with some young weapons to grow with and talent across the board, and a little consistency in offensive scheme Joe's going to explode this year.

I can pretty much agree with everything stated here

[3-4ravdef509]

For the bolded, I think it's important but that's not the heaviest aspect for me. Another big aspect is accuracy. Joe has one season out of 7 where he threw for above 63% in completions with 3 in a row being under 60%. Ben has 7 out of 11 over 63% and only 2 under 60%. If Ben's career ended right now, when Joe reached the end of his 11th season Ben would still win this category.

Now to be fair you can blame that on the Ravens inability to put great weapons, that stay healthy, around Joe where as Ben has gotten better talent (at the WR position, not o-line). There's more but these are important ones, to me at least

Well I can't argue with you cause you did it for me

I'd say you hit the nail on the head. Ben has had revolving doors at the offensive line, but better weapons and honestly better systems too, which coupled with his ability to extend plays leads to a higher completion percentage. The systems Joe played in up until last year, coupled with the type of weapons he's been surrounded with have a lot to do with his completion percentage.

This comes down to the fact that completion percentage isn't a really good gauge of accuracy.

[Ravenseconbeast]

AB > AJ Green

 

Kendrick Lewis > Mike Mitchell

 

CJ Mosley > Every ILB in the NFL not named Keuchly, Bowman, or Wagner

Agreed! 

[Tru11]

lol at people arguing joe is better then big ben.

 

we all hate the steelers but come on and give credit where its due.

 

big ben at this point is a top 5 QB in the NFL and flacco could possibly crack the top 10 depending on who you ask and by what people are going on.

 

last season ben had more yards , completions , TDs , less int, higher % rate, more ypa, higher QB rating.

 

flacco had less fumbles , more rushing yards and 2 rushing TD to ben 0.

 

flacco is getting better with each season and I think next season he might be able to close the gap between them.

[3-4ravdef509]

lol at people arguing joe is better then big ben.

we all hate the steelers but come on and give credit where its due.

big ben at this point is a top 5 QB in the NFL and flacco could possibly crack the top 10 depending on who you ask and by what people are going on.

last season ben had more yards , completions , TDs , less int, higher % rate, more ypa, higher QB rating.

flacco had less fumbles , more rushing yards and 2 rushing TD to ben 0.

flacco is getting better with each season and I think next season he might be able to close the gap between them.

You're argument is very weak.

For one, must because the national media and fan base perception is one thing, doesn't mean that's true in reality, it's just how many people perceive it.

Two, Ben has not really been statistically heads and shoulders above Joe until last year where the offense was loaded. You think Joe wouldn't light it up with Brown and Belle?

The gap might be there, and Ben might have the edge, but it's much closer than you think

[3-4ravdef509]

And like I keep saying, let's see Ben stack two good healthy years in a row.

[Ravens4Real]

You're argument is very weak.

For one, must because the national media and fan base perception is one thing, doesn't mean that's true in reality, it's just how many people perceive it.

Two, Ben has not really been statistically heads and shoulders above Joe until last year where the offense was loaded. You think Joe wouldn't light it up with Brown and Belle?

The gap might be there, and Ben might have the edge, but it's much closer than you think

I don't understand what you are saying. Ben has been better than Flacco just this past year. Flacco's most yards and TD's he has thrown for is 3,986 yards and 27 TD's. Big Ben has four better years of passing yards and TD's than Flacco has. There is also another year where he only played 13 games and was on pace to beat Flacco's best year again. So yes, Big Ben has been better than Flacco a bunch in the regular season. Not just this past year.

Also, the argument that he has way better weapons than the Ravens. Obviously, Brown panned out pretty well for them. But, if you look at solely where they were drafted. They have a 6th, 4th and two 3rd round WR's, a 2nd round RB and a 1st round aging TE. You can't really say that they have been stacking the position for Big Ben.

This is another area where I believe Big Ben is a better QB than Flacco. He makes WR's better.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Ravens4Real

[ludy51]

I don't understand what you are saying. Ben has been better than Flacco just this past year. Flacco's most yards and TD's he has thrown for is 3,986 yards and 27 TD's. Big Ben has four better years of passing yards and TD's than Flacco has. There is also another year where he only played 13 games and was on pace to beat Flacco's best year again. So yes, Big Ben has been better than Flacco a bunch in the regular season. Not just this past year.

Also, the argument that he has way better weapons than the Ravens. Obviously, Brown panned out pretty well for them. But, if you look at solely where they were drafted. They have a 6th, 4th and two 3rd round WR's, a 2nd round RB and a 1st round aging TE. You can't really say that they have been stacking the position for Big Ben.

This is another area where I believe Big Ben is a better QB than Flacco. He makes WR's better.

The round doesn't matter, the talent does.

The rams had to start an undrafted rookie QB a while ago. His name was Kurt warner.

[Ravens4Real]

The round doesn't matter, the talent does.

The rams had to start an undrafted rookie QB a while ago. His name was Kurt warner.

That is just poor analysis. If it was the talent, why would the Ravens pass on Brown 6 times? The round does matter because that means that every single other team passed on that player however many times. 99% of the time, guys taken that late last a couple years in the league.

It is your personel and scouts seeing a guy that they can mold and bring in and be a viable option. Also, having a quarterback that makes these guys better when they do come in. Big Ben has been able to do this with these low picks. While Flacco hasn't.

[Edgar]

And like I keep saying, let's see Ben stack two good healthy years in a row.

He has played all 16 for the past two seasons.

[Tru11]

You're argument is very weak.

For one, must because the national media and fan base perception is one thing, doesn't mean that's true in reality, it's just how many people perceive it.

Two, Ben has not really been statistically heads and shoulders above Joe until last year where the offense was loaded. You think Joe wouldn't light it up with Brown and Belle?

The gap might be there, and Ben might have the edge, but it's much closer than you think

 

please look at your own arguments...

 

pure pocket passing: ben can make every throw from the pocket , just as good as flacco and ben is much better at making reads.

the fact the he is much better with pressure is his face says enough.

a big part of knowing how to deal with pressure is the ability to make reads.

you yourself seem to have the perception that ben only knows how to run around in the backfield and throw on the run lol.

he knows how to extend plays but he does most of his throwing from the pocket and he did a great job this season.

now we can all agree that having 4 more years of experience should give you the ability to read defenses better but still at this point flacco isn't better then ben.

 

on the run: ben.

broken plays: ben

 

ball protection: flacco avg 12 INT  and 9 fumbles a season , ben avg 12 INT and 7 fumbles a season but apparently you give flacco the nod for some reason lol

 

game managing: flacco has 14 4th quarter comebacks good for 65 on the all time list, ben has 25 good for 12 on the all time list yet you give flacco the edge lol.

 

clutch: ben

 

durability: flacco

 

leadership: tied

 

other then durability flacco isn't better then ben in any category you listed if you are willing to be objective.

sure we can talk about weapons but in the same breath we cant deny the o-lines as well.

 

sure brown and bell are better then what we have but our o-line is miles ahead of the steelers o-line.

 

TBH I highly doubt joe would lit it up with bell and brown behind that steelers o-line.

 

Also ben has played 16 games in back to back seasons now and if he does the same next season it will 3 in a row.

for whats its worth: Ben QB rating in the last 3 seasons has ben better then the QB rating flacco posted last season.

flacco QB rating last season was the highest going back to 2010.

 

its really hard to argue ben not being better at this point lol.

[codizzle]

Steelers o line is actually much improved compared to few years ago

And with bell/brown makes it a lot easier for Ben

But I'd have to take Ben right now until flacco can be more consistent in regular season

[beanfigger]

I think this QB comparison is getting really close over the last three years, especially with Big Ben mixing in all those random stinkers against poor teams in recent years. I think it's fine to choose either one over the other at this point. What do you want to have most in a QB? A winner. They are both that, with neither team overseeing a losing season thus far in their careers (though Ben has had a bit more help with that considering all the games he's missed).

[3-4ravdef509]

please look at your own arguments...

pure pocket passing: ben can make every throw from the pocket , just as good as flacco and ben is much better at making reads.

the fact the he is much better with pressure is his face says enough.

a big part of knowing how to deal with pressure is the ability to make reads.

you yourself seem to have the perception that ben only knows how to run around in the backfield and throw on the run lol.

he knows how to extend plays but he does most of his throwing from the pocket and he did a great job this season.

now we can all agree that having 4 more years of experience should give you the ability to read defenses better but still at this point flacco isn't better then ben.

on the run: ben.

broken plays: ben

ball protection: flacco avg 12 INT and 9 fumbles a season , ben avg 12 INT and 7 fumbles a season but apparently you give flacco the nod for some reason lol

game managing: flacco has 14 4th quarter comebacks good for 65 on the all time list, ben has 25 good for 12 on the all time list yet you give flacco the edge lol.

clutch: ben

durability: flacco

leadership: tied

other then durability flacco isn't better then ben in any category you listed if you are willing to be objective.

sure we can talk about weapons but in the same breath we cant deny the o-lines as well.

sure brown and bell are better then what we have but our o-line is miles ahead of the steelers o-line.

TBH I highly doubt joe would lit it up with bell and brown behind that steelers o-line.

Also ben has played 16 games in back to back seasons now and if he does the same next season it will 3 in a row.

for whats its worth: Ben QB rating in the last 3 seasons has ben better then the QB rating flacco posted last season.

flacco QB rating last season was the highest going back to 2010.

its really hard to argue ben not being better at this point lol.

I said two back to back seasons healthy and playing as well as he did last year.

In 2013 he basically had the same year Joe just had statistically but with more attempts. A good year, but not better than Joe this year or in 2010. (when I say not better, I know technically they were better but the difference is honestly negligible).

Honestly the years you reference as being better aren't by that much. One year he had 32 touchdowns but only like 3000 yards. Another year it was flip flop, a 4000 yard season with only 20 touchdowns. In between the last two years and the two seasons I just mentioned, it's been a lot of meh, much like or even worse than Flacco.

Game managing has little to do with being clutch, they're two separate categories. You can mismanage the heck out of a game and then put together at touchdown drive at the end to win it.

Ball security , you can't just go by numbers because you don't know without breaking down every play which were their faults and which were their teammates fault and which were great plays by defenders. Just an eyeball test, Ben seems to throw more picks in the variety of "what the heck was that" where as Joe tends to have many picks be miscommunications between him and receivers, and others are often great plays by defenders, and a few misreads and bad throws, but not too often of the irresponsible variety. Interceptions and fumbles happen, they just mean you're trying. So when judging ball security, I go by who seems to be the better risk taker. I hope that makes sense, it's hard to explain, but you have to agree numbers really aren't the best way to evaluate this, especially when they're so close.

Ben is not always good at making reads. He's certainly not much better than Flacco. Difference is Ben will not often than Joe find open receivers in his reading of the defense. This is because Ben plays with an elite offense.

And why do you believe Joe wouldn't fair close to as well in Bens place?

I don't see how Ben elevates the game of Brown, it's much more the other way around. And Bell does much of the same. Ben arguable had the best receiver and best running back in the league with him last year. That makes a difference, and Joe would about much like Ben to the offense line because he's have people open to throw to.

[3-4ravdef509]

I don't understand what you are saying. Ben has been better than Flacco just this past year. Flacco's most yards and TD's he has thrown for is 3,986 yards and 27 TD's. Big Ben has four better years of passing yards and TD's than Flacco has. There is also another year where he only played 13 games and was on pace to beat Flacco's best year again. So yes, Big Ben has been better than Flacco a bunch in the regular season. Not just this past year.

Also, the argument that he has way better weapons than the Ravens. Obviously, Brown panned out pretty well for them. But, if you look at solely where they were drafted. They have a 6th, 4th and two 3rd round WR's, a 2nd round RB and a 1st round aging TE. You can't really say that they have been stacking the position for Big Ben.

This is another area where I believe Big Ben is a better QB than Flacco. He makes WR's better.

See above post.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Smh, another thread slowly being derailed as another flacco thread.

[3-4ravdef509]

Smh, another thread slowly being derailed as another flacco thread.

It's a shame because all I'm trying to say is I'd take Joe over Ben, and that if Ben is better it's not by a wide margin. He's Joe's senior abs had two rings, so he should be the better QB but I think the only thing that gives him a real advantage if taking the team aspect out of it is his experience. But Joe is younger and nearly just as good if not perhaps a better overall investment.

[GrimCoconut]

Here's a better question...who has the best coaching in the division? We've got a damn fine coaching staff but so do other teams as well. It's not easily decided. I would say we have the best, but I can't say that without possible bias. 

[3-4ravdef509]

I'll admit a little bias too... Joe's my favorite player and I think Ben is scum.

This will be an interesting subject in a year after we see some of our new players on the field. Wondering if Max Williams lives up to the hype for example

[codizzle]

Here's a better question...who has the best coaching in the division? We've got a damn fine coaching staff but so do other teams as well. It's not easily decided. I would say we have the best, but I can't say that without possible bias.

After seeing our injuries in the secondary this past year, I'd say it's ours easily

[52520Andrew]

Ours, I think for the most part the other coaches are good as well but I would take our guys over everyone else