[News] Late For Work 5/20: Ravens Still Thin At Two Positions

[bioLarzen]

Abot the Tannehill deal... I guess the "older" Ravens fans understand it more, because they remember how it goes when you have trash QB's for season after season (basically right until we got McNair). When that happens, I can imagine you're much more ready to make bolder moves to tie the guy up once you get hold of a more capable one... - especially if you're not too lean on cap space. I can imagine the Raiders are gonna do the same if they get another better season out of Carr.

[rmcjacket23]

I highly doubt Kraft fell on his sword to try to get Brady a reduction in suspension, for two reasons...First, most FO would gladly sit a player out for 2 games if Brady's suspension was reduced from 2 games instead of 4 for the draft picks they lost...Second, the Patriots will be around a lot longer than Brady's career, and the black eye that organization will have for years would have been worth fighting for if he felt they were 100% innocent of all the accusations levied against Brady, and the Organization....

Not if I'm the Patriots. I'd gladly trade a late first round pick for having Brady on the field for 2-4 more games, especially considering that the Patriots know that their relevance window is closing every year that Brady gets older.

 

The "black eye" probably factored zero into it, because there really isn't a "black eye". A black eye would only be important if it actually translated into something tangible, such as fan viewership decreased for the Patriots, which we all know won't happen.

 

I seriously doubt that Kraft cares about what the mainstream fanbase feels about his team, particularly when he knows that the mainstream fanbase will continue to support his team financially in a big way.

[bioLarzen]

exactly! Brady gets 2 games or dare to say just 1. That would seem to be the deal that was "Hugged" out.

 

... and who knows, that might be the worst outcome for the Pats. Brady is getting seriously old for top football. Maybe it was time for Garoppolo to take over - which now may be pushed back a season if Brady's suspension will, indeed be reduced. If it's one or two games, Brady will be back even if Garoppolo does a good job in those games. If he had four great games, that could have been an entirely different story...

 

But, of course, this all is mere speculation. Maybe Belichick knows that Garoppolo isn't good enough - or he's not yet there - that's why the Pats are even willing to pay the heavy price to minimize Brady's absence as much as they can...

[January J]

Probably because they see what everybody else sees... he's not the problem. You can't win playoff games if you don't get there, and the Dolphins under Tannehill haven't.

 

Yet, as I posted already, his regular season stats are very similar to Flacco's in his first three years. So if we are acknowledging that Tannehill and Flacco are largely similar QBs in their first three years, how can we then knock Tannehill for not winning postseason games? If we do, aren't we basically acknowledging that Flacco had little impact on this team making the playoffs in the first three years, and that its was, wait for it, a TEAM effort?

i agree for the most part- but obviously stats arent everything. flacco is more of a game manager. and the turnovers are a pretty big deal bc sometimes that is the deciding factor in winning or losing. while you have to awknowledge the ravens coaching staff and management is far superior to miami, you also cant downplay the importance of flaccos play in the "must win" games. thats one of the big reasons he got the contract he did- and tannehill has yet to show he has that ability. however i think this was a good move for miami. i do see the potential in tannehill and like it was previously stated, the dolphins wouldnt have had much luck finding a better option over the next 5 years.

Edited May 20, 2015 by January J

[roamingcharges]

Okay I'm done talking about Flacco's contract; if anyone feels that man is overpaid then the person's brain is underused. And for Mark Brunell's "QB Tiers", it's funny how middle of the road guys retire and become an authority on who's who. In his own playing days I can imagine he would have thought he was a top shelf signal caller... Oh well, what is that thing they say about opinions again?

[runcontrol]

Good point Crusader; Ngata was immovable but I worry as much about stopping the short passes in the middle of the field. Teams like the Patriots, Chiefs, Broncos and others use those short passes to slot receivers, Tight Ends and backs as an extension of their running game. Brandon Williams, who is probably expected to take Ngata's role is 3" shorter and about 10-15 lbs lighter. Ngata could get the push to limit the QB's ability to step up in the pocket and long enough arms to knock passes down or intercept them. Williams might have some problems doing either of those things.

 

Your concerns are valid but considering Williams' vertical jump was 36 in, and Ngata's was only 31.5, I think he has a good chance of knocking down some passes.  And I don't know if there was a change in scheme when Ngata was suspended, or if was just a change in the roster, but it seemed like the pass rush from the middle improved.  

 

There is always going to be a concern when I Pro Bowler is replaced by a young player like Williiams, but I think we need to worry about his run stopping skills before we worry about his ability to get after the qb.  

[stixfix69]

rmjacket, never known a organization being okay with losing draft picks, if they feel they are 100% innocent, or at least contest it for a lesser punishment..And a black eye does matter, no owner wants a tainted image for cheating....Many Pat fans have voiced their disgust of him throwing in the towel, after he ranted about how innocent they were....

[rmcjacket23]

i agree for the most part- but obviously stats arent everything. flacco is more of a game manager. and the turnovers are a pretty big deal bc sometimes that is the deciding factor in winning or losing. while you have to awknowledge the ravens coaching staff and management is far superior to miami, you also cant downplay the importance of flaccos play in the "must win" games. thats one of the big reasons he got the contract he did- and tannehill has yet to show he has that ability. however i think this was a good move for miami. i do see the potential in tannehill and like it was previously stated, the dolphins wouldnt have had much luck finding a better option over the next 5 years.

No issue with this.

 

My entire point was... if the argument Ravens fans are going to use is "well Tannehill hasn't won postseason games", then I'm saying that you really can't put that on Tannehill, because again, from a statistical aspect (which is the best measurement we have for regular season games), there just simply isn't that much difference between the two. So we can't give Flacco 100% credit for making the postseason while simultaneously giving Tannehill 100% of the fault for not making the playoffs, because they're very close in terms of actual on-field production in the regular season.

 

If Tannehill had the postseason success of Flacco (or even close to it), there's no question he gets significantly more money, and probably in the Flacco range.

 

When judging individual players, regardless of position, statistics aren't everything, but then again, winning playoff games isn't everything from an individual player standpoint either. The two go hand in hand.

 

Looks to me like a smart deal from Miami that is banking on increased production and continued growth from Tannehill, and its a deal they can get out of relatively easily if they find that's not the case.

[ryananth]

I don't care if Brady gets his suspension completely thrown out(I'd much rather he play against the stoolers in game 1 than not). The fact that they are still giving up next year's first round pick is the key to me.

[rmcjacket23]

rmjacket, never known a organization being okay with losing draft picks, if they feel they are 100% innocent, or at least contest it for a lesser punishment..And a black eye does matter, no owner wants a tainted image for cheating....Many Pat fans have voiced their disgust of him throwing in the towel, after he ranted about how innocent they were....

Not a question of being OK with it... its a question of trading off one punishment for significantly reducing a more important one. No different than the thousands of people who plea bargain to lesser sentences of crimes they didn't commit. Happens often in this country. Why would you plea bargain if you aren't guilty? Because perhaps the risk of not convincing somebody you aren't guilty is exceedingly greater than just taking a much lighter punishment.

 

Black eyes go away... people forget them. We all root for an organization that had one of the blackest eyes we've ever seen in league history less than a year ago. We as fans have moved on from that, and so will everybody else eventually.

 

I don't really make much about the "losing 1st round pick" idea. Sure, its a first round pick. Historically, the Patriots aren't exactly the best with their day 1 picks (they often trade out, and they often miss). They are better in the later rounds, and lets face it, anybody the Pats are going to take in the back end of the first round isn't all of the sudden going to bolt them from a pretender to a contender in a single offseason.

 

Its one pick... that means one player, and it won't be a QB. It wouldn't surprise me in the slighest if the Patriots win the 2016 SB, despite not having a first round pick the year before. And they'd be laughing at everybody else because of it.

[ravenwildman]

When it comes to these QB ratings things NFL Network and ESPN is doing, it really irks me the way they obviously "dis" Flacco.....I know I should ignore it, but these "Raven-haters" are getting old! Flacco could save an orphanage that's on fire on his way to beating Brady, Big Ben, and Peyton Manning in the playoffs, and still be listed behind .....Jay Cutler or Alex Smith.....Hopefully as time passes some of these dinosaur media haters are replaced with unbiased journalist. The Raven fan base is growing rapidly and perhaps the networks will realize that these days of Raven-hating, needs to stop. GO RAVENS!

[terpmaniac]

Kraft is gonna take the high road because he knows in his heart he is going to lose the appeal. The move is so self-serving (I will prove to all I am the bigger person)and accept the punishment after a week of boo-hooing like a spoiled 5 year old.

[Drew P]

They need a push up the middle not so much an edge guy and I think Jernigan can get there. Who knows what Urban can do if he can get on the field.

[fusuymada]

What was the point of the Schefter comment saying Kraft was going along with the punishment "reluctantly"? No one in this fan base believes he went along with anything, his team was caught cheating, they were punished, at the owners meeting the other 31 owners undoubtedly spoke up about this being the second time they were caught and either sit down and shut up or we, the owners, have the right, as a collective unit, to force you to sell the team. The precedence for this was the NBA running out Sterling due to him being racist. The NFL can run Kraft out for being a cheater. The commissioner can forbid him from being involved in the team for a year for his website, the other owners can oust him. I like Sarah and her work but I don't think this is the appropriate place for placing a comment from a Kraft apologist.

[January J]

What was the point of the Schefter comment saying Kraft was going along with the punishment "reluctantly"? No one in this fan base believes he went along with anything, his team was caught cheating, they were punished, at the owners meeting the other 31 owners undoubtedly spoke up about this being the second time they were caught and either sit down and shut up or we, the owners, have the right, as a collective unit, to force you to sell the team. The precedence for this was the NBA running out Sterling due to him being racist. The NFL can run Kraft out for being a cheater. The commissioner can forbid him from being involved in the team for a year for his website, the other owners can oust him. I like Sarah and her work but I don't think this is the appropriate place for placing a comment from a Kraft apologist.

i think schefter was just quoting what kraft said- bc in kraft statement he said he was reluctantly  accepting the punishment.

[RavensFootballFan]

Watching Pats fans fall apart as soon as Kraft threw in the towel is very enjoyable observation, not as nearly as enjoyable to a Ravens win over the Steelers but pretty close. I wished I was a fly on the wall watching Kraft's facial reactions as the owners talk about chain of command and having more control over footballs to ensure fair playing level. I wonder if he will chime in his opinions or just be quiet and go along without alienating the owners anymore than he already did. While the penalties are not harsh enough toward #12 as he likely have done it before in other home games, it will be somewhat satisfying if the penalties remain the same because the Pats and #12 image are tarnished forever if the penalties remain the same after #12's appeal is heard. We will patiently wait for more documentaries and books to come out later, tarnishing #12 and the Pats even further. Trust me, there are tons of investigations by reporters working hard toward a book or documentaries which will further damage #12 and the Pats long after #12 is retired. That will not stop till McNally or his associates caves in and spills the beans which I think will happen sooner or later. This is only the beginning, it will get worse once everything is found out and pieced together more coherently. You may try to run, hide and lie but the truth can easily keep up with you and eventually wear you down.

[dorie80]

I gotta say i am much more confident in our defense this year than last year, Not only did we get a solid slot Corner, but Webb is going into the offseason healthy, Jimmy will be back and we have a pair of safeties that can both cover and help in run support. Not to mention a young and hungry defensive line with B-Wil, Timmy J, Urban, Kapron Lewis-More, and possibly the best LB's in the league with Mosely, Daryl Smith, Suggs, Dumerville, Upshaw and now ZaDarius to add to the mix along with the other kid Means that both Harbaugh and Ozzie have mentioned... talk about depth

[RRRRRavens]

is it safe to presume you are just kidding? Looks like someone took you seriously. Is this a LOL moment or do we need to get the straight jackets? LOL.... hopefully.

It started out as an LOL comment.  (I keep forgetting that on this forum you have to include the LOL acronym for those less familiar with satire or humorous exaggeration)  But then after I thought about it a while after I had posted it I began to like the idea of watching somebody trying to knock a ball out of the air.  You must admit it is more interesting than watching an event more predictable than grass growing.  The shotgun part I agree is a bit much for the football crowd.  Maybe hockey or MMA fans would be more interested in that aspect.

[ellicottraven]

Kraft isn't a League man. He is a "ME" man! But for the other 31 owners supporting Goodell fully and chastising Kraft for his juvenile rebuttal and threatening him with a fiat that allows them to force him to sell, he wouldn't have cowered like he did...

[salamander]

It started out as an LOL comment.  (I keep forgetting that on this forum you have to include the LOL acronym for those less familiar with satire or humorous exaggeration)  But then after I thought about it a while after I had posted it I began to like the idea of watching somebody trying to knock a ball out of the air.  You must admit it is more interesting than watching an event more predictable than grass growing.  The shotgun part I agree is a bit much for the football crowd.  Maybe hockey or MMA fans would be more interested in that aspect.

You had me laughing. I love the idea of selling the birdshot territory seats at a discount. I mean hey, it's only fair to pay less if you may get accidentally shot.

Edited May 20, 2015 by salamander

[RavensBaltimore]

Probably because they see what everybody else sees... he's not the problem. You can't win playoff games if you don't get there, and the Dolphins under Tannehill haven't.

 

Yet, as I posted already, his regular season stats are very similar to Flacco's in his first three years. So if we are acknowledging that Tannehill and Flacco are largely similar QBs in their first three years, how can we then knock Tannehill for not winning postseason games? If we do, aren't we basically acknowledging that Flacco had little impact on this team making the playoffs in the first three years, and that its was, wait for it, a TEAM effort?

Similar stats is not the same as "largely similar qbs". When you actually watch the two, Tannehill is clearly limited. His stats last year were mostly due to the Dolphins getting him short, easy completions. He struggles with deep-intermediate and deep throws. He couldn't take advantage of Wallace, who put up big numbers and added an important element to the offense in Pittsburgh. Limitations like that make it easier for defenses to gameplan against you, and that makes it pretty much impossible for a qb to carry his team in the postseason, like Flacco has. Tannehill has not even been able to carry his team in big games to get to the postseason. Flacco, on the other hand, can make EVERY THROW at an elite level. He can beat you anywhere on the field and use the strengths of any type of receiver. He also has the leadership, intelligence, and the poise to take over big games. Basically, Flacco has the ability to beat anyone, any way, on any given day, and Tannehill does not.

 

Also, people aren't necessarily "knocking" Tannehill for not winning playoff games, but when comparing his value to Joe's, you have to account for the fact that Flacco has been historically great in the postseason, and Tannehill has never even made the postseason. Even if you think that's not his fault, you still can't discredit the value Flacco adds to the team by dominating in the postseason, and you can't just assume that Tannehill would take over and dominate the way Joe has if he did make the playoffs. Tannehill has never given us any reason to make that assumption, while Flacco has already proven what he can do. Playing historically well and winning consistently in the playoffs significantly increases a qb's value. Never making the postseason, and saying "what if I had a better team", does not.

 

Lastly, why would you even compare the two contracts after year 3 for both players? Flacco didn't get his contract until after year 5 and a SB MVP.

Edited May 20, 2015 by RavensBaltimore

[reed20fence]

Can't believe I'm at this place, but I agree with the earlier poster -- maybe it's wiser for us to pass on Yanda and lock in Osemele for the long haul? Especially if the Yanda camp isn't being forthcoming. Just ask both agents to make their offers and the most lucrative bid for us gets the extension.

[Mr.Incredible]

Not that Joe hasn't done enough to prove that he's a top 5 qb in the nfl, but I think if he wins another SB within the next 3 years, people will have no choice but to respect him, at some point you have to stop being bias and admit when another team or player is better than yours. Can't wait for Joe to prove them wrong...once again! #GoJoe #GoRavens!

[TXRavensFan]

Can't believe I'm at this place, but I agree with the earlier poster -- maybe it's wiser for us to pass on Yanda and lock in Osemele for the long haul? Especially if the Yanda camp isn't being forthcoming. Just ask both agents to make their offers and the most lucrative bid for us gets the extension.

 

I would like to see Yanda retire a Raven as much as anyone, but unfortunately, there's always the business aspect and cap in the background. Ozzie has shown in the past that he's not willing to overpay a veteran player simply for sentiment, if they're pricing themselves over what the team is willing to pay (Reed, Ngata, etc), and one could see the Ravens asking themsleves if its better to lock up Yanda for the next 3-4 years or K.O. for potentially the next 10 years.

[rmcjacket23]

Similar stats is not the same as "largely similar qbs". When you actually watch the two, Tannehill is clearly limited. His stats last year were mostly due to the Dolphins getting him short, easy completions. He struggles with deep-intermediate and deep throws. He couldn't take advantage of Wallace, who put up big numbers and added an important element to the offense in Pittsburgh. Limitations like that make it easier for defenses to gameplan against you, and that makes it pretty much impossible for a qb to carry his team in the postseason, like Flacco has. Tannehill has not even been able to carry his team in big games to get to the postseason. Flacco, on the other hand, can make EVERY THROW at an elite level. He can beat you anywhere on the field and use the strengths of any type of receiver. He also has the leadership, intelligence, and the poise to take over big games. Basically, Flacco has the ability to beat anyone, any way, on any given day, and Tannehill does not.

 

Also, people aren't necessarily "knocking" Tannehill for not winning playoff games, but when comparing his value to Joe's, you have to account for the fact that Flacco has been historically great in the postseason, and Tannehill has never even made the postseason. Even if you think that's not his fault, you still can't discredit the value Flacco adds to the team by dominating in the postseason, and you can't just assume that Tannehill would take over and dominate the way Joe has if he did make the playoffs. Tannehill has never given us any reason to make that assumption, while Flacco has already proven what he can do. Playing historically well and winning consistently in the playoffs significantly increases a qb's value. Never making the postseason, and saying "what if I had a better team", does not.

 

Lastly, why would you even compare the two contracts after year 3 for both players? Flacco didn't get his contract until after year 5 and a SB MVP.

1. I'm comparing the two after 3 years because we can't compare them after 5... Tannehill hasn't played five. The Dolphins decided to extend him after 3. Had the Ravens done the same thing, something tells me Joe would have been getting a very similar contract to what Tannehill has now, perhaps slightly larger.

 

2. After Joe's first three years, there was precisely ZERO people that ever watched him play that thought he could then make all the throws at an elite level, because there was simply no visible evidence that he could. We knew he had a big arm, and that he was fairly accurate with it. Again, the only reason we can say that NOW is because he's got 3 years longer in the league than Tannehill does, and we've seen him grow into that kind of player.

 

Heck, if we are even saying that postseason track record matters a ton, then look at Joe's first three years in the playoffs... didn't even remotely have people thinking he was an "elite" playoff QB. The guy had 4 TDs and 7 INTs in the playoffs in his first three years, and he was basically a 150 yard/gm guy. Joe would have probably been extremely lucky to get a Tannehill level contract after his 3rd NFL season.

 

If Tannehill puts together a couple more improved seasons, and his team starts having some playoff success (entirely possible), then his contract will look like a real bargain in a few years.

 

3. Certainly the playoff success plays into it... thus why Joe's contract is larger. Clearly a value put on that... we just can't really quantify what that value is. Fans would have you think that a SB winning QB deserves twice as much as somebody who hasn't won a SB, but that's probably dramatically overestimating what a franchises value is on assigning success for teams efforts (which is what playoff wins are and always will be). In this case, you could argue that the Dolphins are basically saying that Joe's playoff success is worth $4M more per season, since that's essentially the difference in the contract.

 

4. As is the case with all contracts for QBs, the truth is, its mostly a risk/reward assessment of their replacement value. Can the Dolphins go into the FA market or even the draft and find a better QB than Ryan Tannehill right now, and if so, would he be significantly cheaper than the deal they just gave him?

 

That's the questions fans never seem to ask themselves. Same question that fans should have been asking themselves when Flacco signed his deal when fans thought it was too much. What is the alternative? What's the risk/reward of NOT paying him that much money?

[Space11jams]

most analyst are mental cases. why is flacco on the second tier and so low? luck number 2 really? and dalton is number one on second tier BUT he can't win when it matters...IN THE PLAYOFFS...can't take these analyst man.

[hen826957]

@Space11jams it is a joke sometimes I think analyst just don't mean what they put on the list because it doesn't make sense putting Andy Dalton, Cam Netwon, etc ahead of Flacco. They just can't be that dumb and by the way before I went on this site I saw an article that says "Ravens deemed as 'above average' cheaters" in the top ten franchises just because Joe Flacco says he was going to tackle Ted Ginn Jr in the Super Bowl now that the stupidest thing I've ever heard and I laugh so hard. LOL They love disrespecting the Ravens my goodness.

[MarioDrama]

Adam Schefter is an idiot. If he appealed it the league would dig in even deeper and find other things the Patriots have done. How can you be so blind? Patriots have always cheated Kraft just said hey lets be safe here and thats it.

[TXRavensFan]

most analyst are mental cases. why is flacco on the second tier and so low? luck number 2 really? and dalton is number one on second tier BUT he can't win when it matters...IN THE PLAYOFFS...can't take these analyst man.

 

 

@Space11jams it is a joke sometimes I think analyst just don't mean what they put on the list because it doesn't make sense putting Andy Dalton, Cam Netwon, etc ahead of Flacco. They just can't be that dumb and by the way before I went on this site I saw an article that says "Ravens deemed as 'above average' cheaters" in the top ten franchises just because Joe Flacco says he was going to tackle Ted Ginn Jr in the Super Bowl now that the stupidest thing I've ever heard and I laugh so hard. LOL They love disrespecting the Ravens my goodness.

 

Not that I put much credence into these lists,but if you both are talking about the Brunell list, if you look closely, the quarterbacks in each tier are alphabetized by their first names. This is why (I hope) Andrew Luck is listed just below Aaron Rogers, and Andy Dalton and Cam Newton are above Joe Flacco on the graphics.

Edited May 21, 2015 by TXRavensFan

[hen826957]

@TXRavensFan ok thanks now I understand Brunell put the names in order instead of listing his QB rankings. I was about to say because it wouldn't makes sense putting Andy Dalton ahead of Flacco. Thanks I appreciated.