Ravens OTAs and minicamp discussion

[Sami84]

I'm Not as big on kevin white as the whole world is but he does look more fluid and aggressive than perriman

[Ravensfan23]

I'm Not as big on kevin white as the whole world is but he does look more fluid and aggressive than perriman

At what point do u factor in pro coaching vs collegiate coaching? This is an actual question for you, interested in hearing your opinion.

Because i look at a lot of what holds Perriman back from being that polished guy as very coachable. Ive said many times that I've only seen Perriman in highlights so i don't kno enough about him to give my usual insight on players. I watched that highlight or should i say lowlight video about what has held him back from being a top flight WR and most if not all was coachable now it just comes down to how hard the young man is willing to work on his craft.

I personally think it's a bit tougher for track guys to trasition playing WR and that's what Perriman looked like a lot in his highlights. But ive also seen some things that if the guy puts it together he'll be special imo. So i guess what I'm asking, are the negatives you see about Perriman so bad that they can't be coached?

[Sami84]

Theoretically the only thing you cant coach is tested at the combine. You can coach any player to be a better route runner and give advice..its a question of having the it factor. Perriman doesnt have it. He's lazy in his movemeny off the ball and doesnt use his hands well and doesnt know how to shift his body in the right direction to create seperation from cbs.

You could tell anyone that so and so can be taught. Perriman got away with stuff because athletes can be auccesfull in college. In pros its the other things. Also he isn't aggressive .. You think torrey is soft? Well so is perriman

[The Raven]

Theoretically the only thing you cant coach is tested at the combine. You can coach any player to be a better route runner and give advice..its a question of having the it factor. Perriman doesnt have it. He's lazy in his movemeny off the ball and doesnt use his hands well and doesnt know how to shift his body in the right direction to create seperation from cbs.

You could tell anyone that so and so can be taught. Perriman got away with stuff because athletes can be auccesfull in college. In pros its the other things. Also he isn't aggressive .. You think torrey is soft? Well so is perriman

 

Every time you say something new about Perriman you lose even more credibility. I'm convinced that you haven't watched him play.

Edited May 30, 2015 by The Raven

[Ravensfan23]

I don't see it.  The coaches want to see if he can stay healthy.  We know he is better than most of our other slot guys.  He is also one of the few returners we have.  If he's ready to go, start him day 1 and see if he can make it through camp without injury.  We know he can play and I'd throw him ahead of Marlon Brown given his production in significantly fewer snaps.  

 

1. Steve Smith

2. Breshad Perriman

3. Aiken

4. Brown*

5.Waller

6.Carter or Camp

 

This is my predicted depth chart at receiver for the start of the season.  As of now, I don't see Marlon Brown as a lock.  He gets #4 from experience but the guy was horrendous last season.  If Camp can't stay healthy, he could be cut or thrown on IR at the start of the season.

We clearly didn't watch the same games last season. Marlon Brown was far from horrendous. Everybody wants to talk about how he regressed from this rookie season. That makes sense in the fantasy football driven world, but in the real world where teams are made and games are won, Marlon Brown was much better last season then his rookie year. He was more polished and sure of himself. He's always had solid hands imo and last year he improve on it. He had a streak of like 18 straight passes thrown in his direction were caught. Considering the guy only had about 24 catches that's pretty impressive.

Also it was Marlon Brown that stepped up towards the end of the season was Torrey was slowed by injury and Smitty needed help. In the fantasy world Marlon Brown regressed because he didn't match his totals from his rookie year. However in reality Marlon Brown improved as a player. The only thing that regressed with Marlon Brown was his opportunities because a guy named Steve Smith showed up and he's pretty good.

In 2013 Brown was targeted 80 times while in 2014 he was only targetd 42 times. In 2013 Brown had a catch% of 59.8 while in 2014 he had a catch% of 71%. Yea he didn't follow up on his 7TDs in 2013 bt he also wasn't targeted a single time while in the Red zone in 2014. You have a 6'5" guy with good hands and toughness i think it'd be pretty smart to get th ball in his area while in the red zone. You have him as #4 at WR, he's my #2.

[jazz1988]

i just get a little frustrated with some draft picks..you see I'm the kind of guy that unless you have a top 5 talent who's an incredible athlete and football player you go for the football player over the athlete..im sorry to say but perriman is no football player. he's a great athlete. You can see it watching him. His routes are sloppy..he doesn't use his hands well at the line and is actually quite soft.

 

for me i'd always pick the fluid football player who knows what he's doing on the field.

 

perriman is just..urgh..

 

Your technically comparing Perriman to Stephen Hill and I honestly don't see it when I watch tape. You also seem to constantly like to mention how correct you are because of Elam whom isn't even a bust yet because usually it takes three season for a player to reach their potentials but as I  said before you said Jimmy Smith was a bust and even said Justin Forsett  was  a waste . Elam rookie season was alot better than his second season i thought he played solid but some fans just hate player regardless .

[Ravensfan23]

Theoretically the only thing you cant coach is tested at the combine. You can coach any player to be a better route runner and give advice..its a question of having the it factor. Perriman doesnt have it. He's lazy in his movemeny off the ball and doesnt use his hands well and doesnt know how to shift his body in the right direction to create seperation from cbs.

You could tell anyone that so and so can be taught. Perriman got away with stuff because athletes can be auccesfull in college. In pros its the other things. Also he isn't aggressive .. You think torrey is soft? Well so is perriman

Yes everything can be taught in theory and maybe i wasn't clear in my questioning. Again i'm not saying what he will or won't be, as much as i love the Ravens, im not getting a check to feed my family from them so i can care less if a guy pans out or not. So my question is who or what determines the it factor? Im not comparing him to any of these guys but Tom Brady, Ray Lewis, Aaron Rodgers, Richard Sherman and i can go on and on about guys who didn't have the it factor until they actually got the chance to show and prove. While on the other hand the draft is full of top 5-10 can't miss prospects that have "it" but ends up missing every year.

You are so sure that Perriman will suck and but all of ur reasoning is circumstantial. He's soft, well by who's standards? He's lazy and was able to get away with just his talent in college, well who's to say better competition won't bring out the betterness in him? Now I'm not attacking ur opinion or saying your wrong, but imo a guy having or not having the it factor is a cop out because nobody knows who has it at the highest level until they see them compete at the highest level. There are plenty of college football HOFers that never amounted to nothing in the pros.

[Sami84]

Yes everything can be taught in theory and maybe i wasn't clear in my questioning. Again i'm not saying what he will or won't be, as much as i love the Ravens, im not getting a check to feed my family from them so i can care less if a guy pans out or not. So my question is who or what determines the it factor? Im not comparing him to any of these guys but Tom Brady, Ray Lewis, Aaron Rodgers, Richard Sherman and i can go on and on about guys who didn't have the it factor until they actually got the chance to show and prove. While on the other hand the draft is full of top 5-10 can't miss prospects that have "it" but ends up missing every year.

You are so sure that Perriman will suck and but all of ur reasoning is circumstantial. He's soft, well by who's standards? He's lazy and was able to get away with just his talent in college, well who's to say better competition won't bring out the betterness in him? Now I'm not attacking ur opinion or saying your wrong, but imo a guy having or not having the it factor is a cop out because nobody knows who has it at the highest level until they see them compete at the highest level. There are plenty of college football HOFers that never amounted to nothing in the pros.

 

I could be wrong about perriman but I'm just saying he has massive bust potential because he has so many flaws to his game outside of his natural attributes. I wasn't just right on elam.. i have actually been pretty accurate on most draft picks. From Mosley to jernigan to urshel to pitta to Yanda etc. I wash;t ever a fan of ed dickson and i wanted to chock ozzie for not taking gronk instead of sergio kindle ( who i hated as a player and person) .Oh and with or without the staircase incident much like with cody i had kindle as a bust and it would have been that way without doubt

 

bud dupree is another sergio kindle..we dodged a bullet on that one.

 

The good thing about perriman is that he will make a big play here or there..but he will NEVER be a number 1 receiver.

[jazz1988]

I could be wrong about perriman but I'm just saying he has massive bust potential because he has so many flaws to his game outside of his natural attributes. I wasn't just right on elam.. i have actually been pretty accurate on most draft picks. From Mosley to jernigan to urshel to pitta to Yanda etc. I wash;t ever a fan of ed dickson and i wanted to chock ozzie for not taking gronk instead of sergio kindle ( who i hated as a player and person) .Oh and with or without the staircase incident much like with cody i had kindle as a bust and it would have been that way without doubt

 

bud dupree is another sergio kindle..we dodged a bullet on that one.

 

The good thing about perriman is that he will make a big play here or there..but he will NEVER be a number 1 receiver.

 

The Ravens already proven in the past they don't need a number one receiver to make it to the playoffs so if Perriman just like Torrey than i'm fine with that and that's not bad at all. I like Perriman upside and he has alot of help surrounding him when it comes to becoming a better receiver since his dad is a former NFL receiver, Steve Smith is always willing to coach/mentor players, and Bobby Engram  is a former NFL receiver him self. 

 

Perriman was getting first round consideration before his 40 time and he was getting some positive support by well respected NFL Analyst such as Greg Cosell and Mike Mayock. Some people think Perriman  was only making noise because of his 40 time but you don't compare Perriman to Julio Jones if he was just speed alone  which actually what Greg Cosell  did when  comparing Perriman.

[CalvinSmoke]

I could be wrong about perriman but I'm just saying he has massive bust potential because he has so many flaws to his game outside of his natural attributes. I wasn't just right on elam.. i have actually been pretty accurate on most draft picks. From Mosley to jernigan to urshel to pitta to Yanda etc. I wash;t ever a fan of ed dickson and i wanted to chock ozzie for not taking gronk instead of sergio kindle ( who i hated as a player and person) .Oh and with or without the staircase incident much like with cody i had kindle as a bust and it would have been that way without doubt

bud dupree is another sergio kindle..we dodged a bullet on that one.

The good thing about perriman is that he will make a big play here or there..but he will NEVER be a number 1 receiver.

Sergio was going to be a stud lol Edited May 30, 2015 by CalvinSmoke

[Sami84]

Sergio was going to be a stud lol

 

nope..

 

the only saving grace of that class was pitta and to a much lesser extent art jones and thats how i felt afterwards.

 

I had pitta as the best value tight end behind gronk in the class.

[Ravensfan23]

I could be wrong about perriman but I'm just saying he has massive bust potential because he has so many flaws to his game outside of his natural attributes. I wasn't just right on elam.. i have actually been pretty accurate on most draft picks. From Mosley to jernigan to urshel to pitta to Yanda etc. I wash;t ever a fan of ed dickson and i wanted to chock ozzie for not taking gronk instead of sergio kindle ( who i hated as a player and person) .Oh and with or without the staircase incident much like with cody i had kindle as a bust and it would have been that way without doubt

bud dupree is another sergio kindle..we dodged a bullet on that one.

The good thing about perriman is that he will make a big play here or there..but he will NEVER be a number 1 receiver.

Yea definitely, i think u have a ton of knowledge and i appreciate your willingness to speak your mind even when it may be an unpopular view around here. I just wanted a bit more of your insight to understand your thinking because again i haven't watched anything other then highlights and lowlights of him, so despite how much i dislike it, I'm a prisoner of others opinions on Perriman. But at least i know you'll have an original thought. I've gotten a mixed bag on Perriman and like i said from what i see on the highlights i see a lot of coachable points but those points shouldn't be hard to overcome with professional coaching and hars work.

[CalvinSmoke]

nope..

the only saving grace of that class was pitta and to a much lesser extent art jones and thats how i felt afterwards.

I had pitta as the best value tight end behind gronk in the class.

ehh we gotta disagree in that one. Even after the head trauma and one ear left he still flashed his pass rush potential. And the was years without playing g football. If he wouldn't have been a goofball he would be our number 1 pass rusher right now. Probably wouldn't have signed dummerville though.

[Sami84]

on the other hand..here is some positivity.

 

if he's dedicated and if the coaches give him a chance

 

darren waller could really be a number 1. Even in the limited film he understands how to use his body much better than perriman

 

also even though i have only a limited about of film de'andre carter is no joke..he has a real shot of making this team

[Sami84]

ehh we gotta disagree in that one. Even after the head trauma and one ear left he still flashed his pass rush potential. And the was years without playing g football. If he wouldn't have been a goofball he would be our number 1 pass rusher right now. Probably wouldn't have signed dummerville though.

 

Nope. He's similar to bud dupree. Yes there is pass rush ability but his technique was awful. Doom had awesome technique at louville.Different kind of player but technique is what counts. Adalius Thomas is what the steelers are hoping for in dupree..sadly he aint no AD because AD could play the run just as well as pass.

[January J]

by the way..his hands are a secondary issue..my beef with him is his lack of vision on the field. he doesn't know how to extend routes or use his movement effectively. he's one of the worst route runners I've seen and what i didn't like was at the podium..much like matt elam did , he mentioned being able to run all the routes well..

…no..no son.

even if any of that is true- I just don't see why you don't think he can't improve on these things? I get that something's aren't "coachable"... But players can shake bad habits, learn new techniques , and just overall get better in general. And who better to learn from than Ingram and SSS. Have some confidence In Your team man. It's one thing to voice an opinion and another to want somebody to fail just so you can be right. Yeah yeah I'm sure you have said you "hope he proves you wrong", its just the way you are so passionately set on him being a failure that causes me not to believe you. Like I said before - he may not pan out to be the next superstar- but as long as he out performs Torrey I will look at him as a major success.

[Sami84]

even if any of that is true- I just don't see why you don't think he can't improve on these things? I get that something's aren't "coachable"... But players can shake bad habits, learn new techniques , and just overall get better in general. And who better to learn from than Ingram and SSS. Have some confidence In Your team man. It's one thing to voice an opinion and another to want somebody to fail just so you can be right. Yeah yeah I'm sure you have said you "hope he proves you wrong", its just the way you are so passionately set on him being a failure that causes me not to believe you. Like I said before - he may not pan out to be the next superstar- but as long as he out performs Torrey I will look at him as a major success.

 

actually engram is a good example of a below average/average athlete and excellent football player.

 

lets see. I was wrong about Jimmy Smith and rick Wagner so i aint perfect. lets see if he becomes a more fluid player who understands how to move across the field and use technique.

[dhstandard]

We clearly didn't watch the same games last season. Marlon Brown was far from horrendous. Everybody wants to talk about how he regressed from this rookie season. That makes sense in the fantasy football driven world, but in the real world where teams are made and games are won, Marlon Brown was much better last season then his rookie year. He was more polished and sure of himself. He's always had solid hands imo and last year he improve on it. He had a streak of like 18 straight passes thrown in his direction were caught. Considering the guy only had about 24 catches that's pretty impressive.

Also it was Marlon Brown that stepped up towards the end of the season was Torrey was slowed by injury and Smitty needed help. In the fantasy world Marlon Brown regressed because he didn't match his totals from his rookie year. However in reality Marlon Brown improved as a player. The only thing that regressed with Marlon Brown was his opportunities because a guy named Steve Smith showed up and he's pretty good.

In 2013 Brown was targeted 80 times while in 2014 he was only targetd 42 times. In 2013 Brown had a catch% of 59.8 while in 2014 he had a catch% of 71%. Yea he didn't follow up on his 7TDs in 2013 bt he also wasn't targeted a single time while in the Red zone in 2014. You have a 6'5" guy with good hands and toughness i think it'd be pretty smart to get th ball in his area while in the red zone. You have him as #4 at WR, he's my #2.

You don't find it a problem that he was only targeted 42 times as opposed to 80?  His offensive snaps went from 791 to 375.  While that is a huge jump, his overall percentage of targets dropped by a percentage point.  That says to me he is not getting open.  Campanaro and Aiken performed much better given their # of snaps.

[rmw10]

You don't find it a problem that he was only targeted 42 times as opposed to 80?  His offensive snaps went from 791 to 375.  While that is a huge jump, his overall percentage of targets dropped by a percentage point.  That says to me he is not getting open.  Campanaro and Aiken performed much better given their # of snaps.

 

It definitely was a step down from his rookie year, but he didn't have near as much usage.  He was relied on to be the #2 in his rookie year.  Last year, he rotated in as the #3.  Of course his numbers are going down if that's the case.  Of course, it still wasn't his best year, but I think it shows that we had more talent in the WR group to take some of those snaps and targets.

[balfan23]

All I'm saying is just give him a chance until at least the end of preseason, possibly even into the regular season. Wait and see how he responds to success and failure, then by all means judge him. I think you're judgment at the moment is a bit premature and I think it's tiring in everyone. He's a Raven regardless, and he's a rookie. I don't care if you've been right about Elam so far. Just stop the complaining and criticism until there's at least real NFL evidence to support it.

Many great WR in college bust as pros and many ho-hum college WR have become standouts. Just be patient and at least wait until we see how he plays here, with this team, QB, coaching and against real NFL talent.

.. or perhaps well into the regular season and into his second season. 

 

There are simply very few rookies in history that have taken this league by storm. What will be his measure of success? Will he need to be the equal to OBJ or Mike Evans in order to not be instantly declared a bust? I am convinced that if this guy drops a pass or does anything to illustrate one of his many declared flaws in the preseason, those critics will be set to dismiss him in an instant. 

 

The draft is a full month past us and the drum beat on this goes on and on and on. To say that is has become tiresome would be a massive understatement. 

[GrimCoconut]

.. or perhaps well into the regular season and into his second season. 

 

There are simply very few rookies in history that have taken this league by storm. What will be his measure of success? Will he need to be the equal to OBJ or Mike Evans in order to not be instantly declared a bust? I am convinced that if this guy drops a pass or does anything to illustrate one of his many declared flaws in the preseason, those critics will be set to dismiss him in an instant. 

 

The draft is a full month past us and the drum beat on this goes on and on and on. To say that is has become tiresome would be a massive understatement. 

I only said to wait until after preseason or into the regular season because people like Sami are going to call Perriman out regardless. It honestly doesn't matter what I do. He's going to say what he wants about the guy because he's opinionated and that's OK. It's good to have people like that around here. It would be dull otherwise. I agree with everything you said, but my main goal is just to get Sami to perhaps hold off on Perriman until he at least plays an NFL game. Lol. 

[Sami84]

I only said to wait until after preseason or into the regular season because people like Sami are going to call Perriman out regardless. It honestly doesn't matter what I do. He's going to say what he wants about the guy because he's opinionated and that's OK. It's good to have people like that around here. It would be dull otherwise. I agree with everything you said, but my main goal is just to get Sami to perhaps hold off on Perriman until he at least plays an NFL game. Lol. 

 

I'll be looking at his route running and ability to separate from the line when being press covered. When a play needs to be extended I'll be watching him..if he shows me those two things..i'll say you know what..hes got a chance. 

[rmw10]

I'll be looking at his route running and ability to separate from the line when being press covered. When a play needs to be extended I'll be watching him..if he shows me those two things..i'll say you know what..hes got a chance. 

 

But hey, you know everything… right?!

[Purple_City39]

I don't see it.  The coaches want to see if he can stay healthy.  We know he is better than most of our other slot guys.  He is also one of the few returners we have.  If he's ready to go, start him day 1 and see if he can make it through camp without injury.  We know he can play and I'd throw him ahead of Marlon Brown given his production in significantly fewer snaps.  

 

1. Steve Smith

2. Breshad Perriman

3. Aiken

4. Brown*

5.Waller

6.Carter or Camp

 

This is my predicted depth chart at receiver for the start of the season.  As of now, I don't see Marlon Brown as a lock.  He gets #4 from experience but the guy was horrendous last season.  If Camp can't stay healthy, he could be cut or thrown on IR at the start of the season.

So much in this post confusing me.  How do we "know" Campanero is better than most of our slot guys???  His 7 total catches on the 2014 season tells that?  

 

And I don't see how Marlon was horrendous either

[757RavensFan]

But hey, you know everything… right?!

You gotta love all the keyboard coaches!!

[Purple_City39]

I could be wrong about perriman but I'm just saying he has massive bust potential because he has so many flaws to his game outside of his natural attributes. I wasn't just right on elam.. i have actually been pretty accurate on most draft picks. From Mosley to jernigan to urshel to pitta to Yanda etc. I wash;t ever a fan of ed dickson and i wanted to chock ozzie for not taking gronk instead of sergio kindle ( who i hated as a player and person) .Oh and with or without the staircase incident much like with cody i had kindle as a bust and it would have been that way without doubt

 

bud dupree is another sergio kindle..we dodged a bullet on that one.

 

The good thing about perriman is that he will make a big play here or there..but he will NEVER be a number 1 receiver.

Wait, nobody touched on the bolded.  You're mad at Ozzie for drafting Kindle instead of Gronk.......but Gronk was drafted before the Ravens were on the board in that round.  So Ozzie never actually drafted Kindle over Gronk.

 

And it's not like Ozzie could have known Kindle would take a drunken swan dive down two flights of stairs.  His career flopped because of stupid decisions (drinking) outside of football that led to an on the field handicap (no hearing out of one ear and constant vertigo due to head trauma.

[Sami84]

Ozzie traded down..

He coulda had gronk who i considered a better version of heap. I wanted gronk and pitta ( hernandez wad the 3rd option and thank god that didn't happen

[Ravensfan23]

You don't find it a problem that he was only targeted 42 times as opposed to 80?  His offensive snaps went from 791 to 375.  While that is a huge jump, his overall percentage of targets dropped by a percentage point.  That says to me he is not getting open.  Campanaro and Aiken performed much better given their # of snaps.

Know i didn't find it a problem because i understand football. That's no knock to your level of knowledge, just making a point. In 2013 Marlon Brown started from day one and considering the fact that Jacoby Jones was the only other option to be a #2, Brown was basically force feed the ball, despite clearly not being ready. In reality his rookie season was horrendous. Go back and watch how many times he ran poor routes or the wrong routes. However he was better then Jacoby, there was no Pitta, Stokely couldn't stay healthy and Clark was terrible. They even had to bring back Doss who wasn't even good enough to make the team, hell i think you and i may have had a chance to catch passes that year. The offense needed someone bad at WR and Marlon was the only guy, so Marlon got a bulk of the chances.

Fast forward to 2014 and you have a guy in Steve Smith come in, Owen Daniels comes in and Kubes comes in who loves more 2TE sets then 3WR sets. Are you honestly gonna take snaps away from Smitty for Brown? I'll assume your answer is no. So in that case your 3WR, which Marlon Brown was that means he'll obviously have less targets then as a #2, now because your 5th or 6th option in most game plans. Kubes wanted a TE and HB driven offense, he didn't even take advantage of Joe's biggest strength, which is play action imo. So now you have Torrey, Sr, O.D, Juice and your 2nd TE on the field a lot, so your 3rd WR is basically a specialist of sorts instead of being a constant fixture in the game plan.

When you have more mouths to feed every one doesn't always get equal portions. 2013 the Ravens had next to no offensive talent, 2014 they had a lot of solid pieces. If given the opportunity Marlon Brown will surpass the expectations of him.

[January J]

actually engram is a good example of a below average/average athlete and excellent football player.

lets see. I was wrong about Jimmy Smith and rick Wagner so i aint perfect. lets see if he becomes a more fluid player who understands how to move across the field and use technique.

and he's an even better coach. I don't really care what type of an athlete he was. Perriman is an excellent athlete and whether he is an excellent nfl player is yet to be seen. So try to reserve some of the judgment. Like I said, things can be fixed , routes can be learned ,and bad habits can be broken. I'm pretty sure you've been wrong quite a bit More than that. Forsett comes to mind off the top of my head .

[Cville-Raven]

and he's an even better coach. I don't really care what type of an athlete he was. Perriman is an excellent athlete and whether he is an excellent nfl player is yet to be seen. So try to reserve some of the judgment. Like I said, things can be fixed , routes can be learned ,and bad habits can be broken. I'm pretty sure you've been wrong quite a bit More than that. Forsett comes to mind off the top of my head .

He definitely has gotten more wrong.