Ravens OTAs and minicamp discussion

[757RavensFan]

While the offensive scheme may be different, the WR route tree is the same on any offense.  If Schaub is having a problem hitting his WRs, it's not the scheme.  It's always the archer and never the arrow. 

[BmoreBird22]

While the offensive scheme may be different, the WR route tree is the same on any offense.  If Schaub is having a problem hitting his WRs, it's not the scheme.  It's always the archer and never the arrow.

While the route tree may be the same, how those tours are utilized is different and I certainly disagree with "it's always the archer" because wide receiver isn't as cut and dry as run one route. They have to adjust their routes to the coverage and that's a fluid process as the play develops. The same play can feature three different routes if it's off, press, or zone and that's very important when discussing chemistry and communication. Anyone remember when Flacco threw that interception to Florence when he was covering Doss in the preseason game against Carolina? What did Joe do? Chew Doss out for not adjusting his route based on a hot read to avoid the blitz. It cetainlu can be "the arrow"

[Runnin Raven]

Maybe we should relax on the knee-jerk reactions to articles written about player performances in June OTAs.

[Sami84]

I'm sure it's not that different as far as terminology goes since it is a west coast offense, but Trestman almost certainly has a different philosophy (he's definitely more pass heavy) and I'm guessing he also has an entirely different way of how he wants the plays to be designed. Kubiak seemed to like to set up the run to set up the deep ball play action. Trestman places a larger emphasis on the short to mid game and going over the middle with those big receivers. It's going to be a transition.

 

I think its going to be a hybrid kind of offense. I think harbs has made it clear he wants a lot of Kubiaks stuff to stay..Trestman even said that would be the case too. 

[BmoreBird22]

I think its going to be a hybrid kind of offense. I think harbs has made it clear he wants a lot of Kubiaks stuff to stay..Trestman even said that would be the case too.

I don't disagree that the concepts and basic style of the offense will change, but I'm guessing the overall philosophy will be fairly different when the season gets underway

[VeiledPsychosis]

could have kept Tyrod for that matter and probably saved about $1M.

I doubt we "could" have kept Tyrod, the whole thing with him is that he wanted out so he could have a chance to start. I think if we could have kept him Ozzie would have made it happen, Ozzie knows better than anyone that its almost always better to keep the guy familiar with the system and receivers

[Ravensfan23]

I understand your point but the offense isn't really suppose to be all that different from what Gary Kubiak ran last year. The Ravens made it clear that they would continue to run the same offensive scheme  from last year. I even read  where one of the reasons why Matt Schaub was signed was  because of his knowledge of Gary Kubiak offensive scheme.  I'm sure Trestman  still bringing some new stuff but according to some players(Flacco, Aiken, Smith Sr,) the offensive scheme isn't totally new.  

 

Schaub is playing on a new team and with different receivers so it's probably only natural for him to be uncomfortable .

 

 

  

 

Yeah I feel the same way but maybe he just needs to get more comfortable since this is a new team he's playing for. 

 

Oh i'm not giving Schuab any type of pass. It's not a new offense but it is new terminology and new concepts. Imo you can't say, oh the offense is basicially the same, but then turn around and say, "Trestman is throwing as much of his offense at us as possible right now" that's what Flacco said. So while i'm sure the principles of the offense is the same, there are still new things to be learned, and for a guy playing around all new teammates, it's expected to see some struggles imo. Also remember all the reports on how the DLine has been destroying the backup oline in OTAs, so now we're talking about Schuab having a comfort level.  So i think we'll have a better understanding of Schuab during the preseason. I honestly don't think we can expect much from him anyway. I think he'll be good enough to help develop those young WRs that won't get to catch passes from Flacco, but as far as game play, if you have to count on Schaub for more then 2-3 games, I think we're in trouble. 

[January J]

im not so sure that schaub is even a lock to make the team. i mean you would think so, but if he doesnt show any signs of improvement and just keeps throwing interceptions he may very well get beat out by rynner or lovelock.

[A Fish Called Yanda]

Ideally the back up could at least come in and keep the team in contention for 2-4 games. I think ours is a liability.

Teams will sell out to stop the run, and wait for Schaub to throw it to them.

 

Yeah I completely agree.  We've been very lucky that Flacco has never seen a real injury, and it is definitely a risk that we've been running for most of his career.

 

Schaub appears to be a stopgap, and unfortunately Wenning didn't pan out.  Not sure what our next move is for backup QB.

[Ravensfan23]

I think its going to be a hybrid kind of offense. I think harbs has made it clear he wants a lot of Kubiaks stuff to stay..Trestman even said that would be the case too. 

 

I don't think it's so much of Kubes stuff, as it is the general style of the offense, which is WCO. Trestman is gonna implement, his offense and do things his way, but the Harbs wants the foundation to remain the same. It's similar to the defense over the year. After Marvin Lewis left the Ravens switched from a 4-3 to a 3-4 under Mike Nolan. Even though Nolan was a primary 3-4 guy, the defense still kept a lot of the same principles installed by Lewis. Thus the hybrid type defense was born and it didn't matter if Rex, Chuck, Mattison or Pees ran the defense it stayed the same but each coach was able to run it there way. 

 

I believe Ozzie and Harbs wants the same from the offense. They tried it with Cam Cameron's offense but it just wasn't a relate-able offense to today's NFL imo or maybe we just didn't have the right pieces, but it didn't work for us. However bring in Kubes allow us to highlight everything we wanted to do offensively. Flacco became a 1st round pick because of his success in a spread WCO type offense at Delaware, we had been trying to run the ZBS as our primary running style, and every WR we drafted was more of a catch and run type guy, who plays better in space, rather then the polished route runner it seemed we always needed but never had in Cam's system. Kubes brought all that together. Now Harbs has an "offensive system" that will be the foundation of everything we wanna do going forward on offense. Regardless of who the coach will be in the future, they'll have to conform to the Ravens Offense, and implement their philosophies in it. 

 

So I definitely agree it'll be a hybrid type offense, but I don't think it'll be a situation where Harbs would say hey, Marc this is the way Kubes did this and you have to do it the same way. Like Trestman said, it's about identifying what the offense did so well last year, and finding ways to build upon it and taking the offense to the next level. 

[izvoodoo]

 

I believe Ozzie and Harbs wants the same from the offense. They tried it with Cam Cameron's offense but it just wasn't a relate-able offense to today's NFL imo or maybe we just didn't have the right pieces, but it didn't work for us. 

Cam's offense was really archaic, but it's big principle is based on just having out and out more athletic payers than anyone else.  But even then, he rarely developed the offense to use the middle of the field.  It did help ray rice's career though, because a lot of those routes are designed to clear the middle of the field out for the YAC.

 

But we were running the least sophisticated offense in the NFL at the time.  

[Ravensfan23]

Cam's offense was really archaic, but it's big principle is based on just having out and out more athletic payers than anyone else.  But even then, he rarely developed the offense to use the middle of the field.  It did help ray rice's career though, because a lot of those routes are designed to clear the middle of the field out for the YAC.

 

But we were running the least sophisticated offense in the NFL at the time.  

 

Yea. And when I say Cam's offense, i have to be clear that even with Cam he was kind of pigeon holed as well, because we've always had that philosophy here of, this is what we did to win a championship, don't fix what isn't broken. So we've always had the run first, establish the run game no matter what, you better make sure your RB gets x amount of touches per game, even though starting in 2010 you have a bonafide franchise QB who could carry this or any offense imo. There were times that Cam wanted to just open up the offense and run it through Flacco but was met with resistance, mainly by big brother(the defense) when things didn't workout in one game. That's why i personally felt that Flacco outgrew Cam's offense in 2010, because Cam didn't know how to do what he wanted, while appeasing the 'Raven Way"

 

I personally think the best thing that every happened to this offense was firing Cam and seeing in the AFC Championship that is wasn't just about firing Cam, but the offense just had to have a different philosophy. As Harbs all but admitted in the sideline audio of America's Game, there was no way we win the game without opening up the offense and putting the ball into Flacco's hands. The next season Caldwell tried to unleash January Joe in the regular season but injuries derailed everything. I thought Kubes just brought everything together and allowed the offense to be more consistent, even though we had some walking dead moments. Overall I think the whole, we gotta be a run first team has hampered the offense for years imo. Despite the fact that once we get to the playoffs, we have more of a balanced offense, but it's runs through Flacco getting into his grove first and then the rest of the offense falling in line. I'm not saying Cam was great, even though he was credited as the best OC in the NFL at the time we hired him, but I think the overall philosophy of the organization held him back from doing all he wanted to do with the offense imo. 

[codizzle]

Maybe we should relax on the knee-jerk reactions to articles written about player performances in June OTAs.

Nonsense.. This place would be useless without the jerking of the knees to every letter in the news section

[rmw10]

Maybe we should relax on the knee-jerk reactions to articles written about player performances in June OTAs.

 

I think that might hold true for a young guy, but it's concerning when a veteran who has had a consistent pattern is continuing on that path.

[Passepartout]

IMHO, Matt S will always be a backup. From here on out.

[Ravensfan23]

We gotta also remember be it good or bad reports, these reporters are only reporting on what they see in 1 practice per session. So that's like a total of 3 practices so far. It's easy to say oh it's the same ol Schuab, because that's what reports see. However we don't know what coaches see. Schuab isn't Flacco and wasn't close to the caliber of QB Flacco is even when Schuab made the pro bowl. I say that because Flacco has a natural trust with his WRs. He seems to have the mindset of I'll trust you until you prove that i shouldn't trust you. That's rare for most QBs, which is why most QBs want to host passing camps before OTA and such. Most QBs only develop that trust or faith in their WRs once they've made a few plays for them.

So i say that because, when we hear how Flacco looks sharp, but in the same practice you can tell Schuab is a backup, we have to remember that Flacco is great at tight window throws and actually throwing his targets open with the anticipation and trust that they'll be were they're supposed to be. That's never been Schuab's game. He's always been a guy who worked best being protected by a strong run game and Kubes moving defenses with play action.

This is the part of the offseason where a new coach is basically seeing how each player can handle his offense before tailoring the offense around that player. So if Trestman is just throwing everything at his players right now, he's basically seeing what Schuab does well and what isn't his strengths. That 5 week period before TC starts is when the coaches will start to develop game plans on how each player fits into the offense. Right now Schuab and Flacco are being given the same plays to run to see what they do well. I'm willing to bet that in TC and the preseason, Matt Schuab will be given more of a scaled down offense to run, simply because you can't expect him to do what Flacco does. I'm not worried yet.

[Ravensfan23]

IMHO, Matt S will always be a backup. From here on out.

I don't think anyone doubts that, even Schuab which is probably why he came to a stable team with a chance to win a ring instead of a young team with a ? at QB and he could possibly start. I think his best hope is that he proves to the Ravens that he can be a quality backup and hope he can get a solid 3yr deal. That'll put him at 37 and allow him to close out his career in a great place and help mentor what young QBs the Ravens have. Might have a coaching future, which Harbs kind of encourages with older players.

[Rav'n Maniac]

Wow. If Maxx plays as fast as he talked answering questions during his presser, we're in for a real treat. lol

[Sami84]

im wondering if we are being too optimistic with these young guys….outside of jeremy shockey and Gronk i don't know many rookie tight ends that end up having a Big first season..

 

anyhow..lets see..i know he's going to be a good player but will this coming year be too early for him?

Edited June 10, 2015 by Sami84

[CalvinSmoke]

im wondering if we are being too optimistic with these young guys….outside of jeremy shockey and Gronk i don't know many rookie tight ends that end up having a Big first season..

anyhow..lets see..i know he's going to be a good player but will this coming year be too early for him?

I'm honestly with you here. I don't expect a whole lot from Maxx or Boyle yet

[izvoodoo]

I'm honestly with you here. I don't expect a whole lot from Maxx or Boyle yet

I expect a good bit from Perriman because he's just so fast.  

[Ravensfan23]

im wondering if we are being too optimistic with these young guys….outside of jeremy shockey and Gronk i don't know many rookie tight ends that end up having a Big first season..

 

anyhow..lets see..i know he's going to be a good player but will this coming year be too early for him?

I think Maxx has ROY potential but it'll all come down to how quickly he develops. We hear so much about how a young guy has such a high ceiling but unfortunately most 20 year old guys just don't pan out in the NFL because their bodies aren't developed enough. I know Maxx is 21 but it remains the same. He's still learning the TE position on top of learning what Flacco and the offense expects from him. I think the best case scenario for Maxx will be to have Pitta and Gilmore as the top guys while he's able to just ease his way in. Much like both Heap and Pitta were able to do their first years.

[Grapple Raven]

Even with a glut of talent at WR, I have a feeling about this guy as well.

 

I agree with you and Ravensfan23, I really hope he gets a shot, because I will be sick if he walks out the door.  He was cleared at the Combine recheck for his foot, and I understand that the Ravens are being careful not to overwork him.  He just has too much potential to let him walk.

[BmoreBird22]

Just an interesting note, but both Perriman and Maxx Williams have been running as the starters at wide receiver and tight end. Apparently Williams has caught every pass thrown his way and Perriman has had two drops, one of which was described as "would have been an amazing catch".

[FlocksGottaFeed]

Just an interesting note, but both Perriman and Maxx Williams have been running as the starters at wide receiver and tight end. Apparently Williams has caught every pass thrown his way and Perriman has had two drops, one of which was described as "would have been an amazing catch".

It's getting interesting. Very good signs for the Ravens. I think they should have said "...would have been another amazing catch by Perriman" (He's made so many so far.), but there's no doubt that both Maxx and Perriman are all-in.

[BmoreBird22]

It's getting interesting. Very good signs for the Ravens. I think they should have said "...would have been another amazing catch by Perriman" (He's made so many so far.), but there's no doubt that both Maxx and Perriman are all-in.

I'm very interested in seeing how they play when contact starts coming into play. That'll be the real test.

[FlocksGottaFeed]

I'm very interested in seeing how they play when contact starts coming into play. That'll be the real test.

Agreed. Once the pads come out...we'll have confirmation. Just a guess, but I think that these 2 will be even more elevated. Our scout team gives them both high grades for IQ and toughness. Everything I've seen so far supports it. The adjusting to the speed of the game (with pads) is what really sets rookies apart. Again...I think they'll do just fine.

[BmoreBird22]

Agreed. Once the pads come out...we'll have confirmation. Just a guess, but I think that these 2 will be even more elevated. Our scout team gives them both high grades for IQ and toughness. Everything I've seen so far supports it. The adjusting to the speed of the game (with pads) is what really sets rookies apart. Again...I think they'll do just fine.

I would be very surprised if they didn't. On tape, both seemed to do more than fine with just shrugging off that initial hit and getting upfield.

[FlocksGottaFeed]

I would be very surprised if they didn't. On tape, both seemed to do more than fine with just shrugging off that initial hit and getting upfield.

Absolutely.

[Ravensfan23]

Just an interesting note, but both Perriman and Maxx Williams have been running as the starters at wide receiver and tight end. Apparently Williams has caught every pass thrown his way and Perriman has had two drops, one of which was described as "would have been an amazing catch".

Right now anyone who the Ravens will rely on at any point in the offense will be running with the first team right now. Not to take anything away from Perriman or Maxx because i love what I'm hearing as well. We are at the point where Trestman wants to see what he's got. So Sr, Brown, Aiken and Perriman will all run with the first team at some point. Maxx, Gilmore and Boyle will all get first team reps at some point. Forsett ,LT and Buck will all get first team reps simply because you wanna see what you have with the best possible guys playing together. Hard to ask a guy like Buck to show what he can bring to the offense if he's only playing behind a 3rd string unit.

The the thing i love about the way Harbs run practices he gives as many guys first team reps as possible so they can truly compete. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Waller, Butler, Carter and Worthy getting 1st team reps at some point.