2015 Draft a Franchise: Discussion Thread

[BmoreBird22]

24 turnovers is 24 turnovers, it is great that he is the center piece of the offense, that is exactly what most top tier QBs are. Tom Brady threw the ball over 600 times in 2011, 2012, and 2013, and had 582 this past year. You say I am judging him harshly but that is how the top tier QBs are judged. Also Luck had a 2.60 INT rate compared to Flacco's 2.17 INT rate. Luck threw an INT nearly 20% more often than Flacco did, just in case you thought that was a small difference.

 

No one called Flacco an elite QB in his first 2 years just in case you were wondering. Also Luck had a 6 - 7 one this year. Did you also miss the part where I had Flacco ranked #3 and Luck #2? This isn't a Flacco Luck debate, I think Flacco is a top 10 QB but isn't top 5 right now as well. I think his playoff success or overall clutchness and the lack of many good young QBs helps his case though in this type of game, that and the fact that he has had no real weapons to work with until hopefully this year. I really want to see what Flacco is like with some weapons because I think he can make that leap as well, he had everything come together in the 2012 postseason and was on fire. 

 

This is 2015, Peyton has already beaten the Pats by now multiple times. We are comparing QBs right now, not guys when they were 3 years into the league. Peyton had his things to work on at this point as well before he started getting MVPs and breaking passing records and finally winning a Super Bowl.

 

Andrew Luck is better than Curtis Painter, wow shocker, weren't they like 12-4 the year prior to going 2-14 anyways? While the turnover and building up the offense is great, there are plenty of other players and coaches that deserve credit as well. Also while it is great that Luck got thrown into the fire, that doesn't change that he isn't a top tier QB for me, the best QB in the league last year was eased into it, again I am not comparing careers here.

 

Yeah Wayne(at least before this past year), T.Y. and Allen are all scrubs aren't they. Also Arians is the guy who was the OC for the Steelers when they won their Super Bowl(something Cameron can't say the same about, in fact him being fired is what sparked the offense in the first place) and a certain other QB had him as an OC much longer than Luck did. 

 

Look, Luck is a guy with a ton of potential and I believe he will be great but until he is doing great things like winning Super Bowls or MVPs or puts a few good seasons together, he just isn't there yet. Heck many people didn't consider Manning to be a top tier QB until he cut down on his turnovers, he had the same problem the first few years. I don't know why you are the one taking it personally that I have him ranked at #2 as opposed to people a few pages back saying he wasn't even top 5 on their boards but I don't have the time to keep this going. Did you just see that I said Luck was overrated and not bother to read the rest of the post? It isn't like I said Luck was a bad pick, I just don't think he is at the level he is hyped to be at right now, kinda like the Lebron GOAT talk although I am not as sold on LeBron being the GOAT. 

So, let's say a quarterback throws 20 interceptions, but every single interception was due to a perfectly placed pass and it bounces off the receivers hands and into the defenders hands, it's just a turnover and it's all on the quarterback, right? And Luck will throw a touchdown about every 39 passes with Flacco throwing one about every 46 passes. I do not consider that to be a massive difference, especially when one has an offensive line and a running game to ease the pressures of the pass defense. 

 

I didn't miss it and I'm not debating Luck over Flacco, but you were talking about him and I was just putting out a comparison to put it into perspective because everyone here is very familiar with Flacco. I mean, I could compare Luck's numbers to every single quarterback in the NFL, but the relevancy isn't there since not everyone followed David Garrard. 

 

I'm just saying it's far more impressive than anyone is giving it credit for. And I didn't call T.Y. Hilton or Dwayne Allen scrubs, but they DID come into the league with Andrew Luck, so it's a very big testament to Luck to be able to work with four starting rookies in base packages and do what he did (Hilton, Allen, Fleener, Ballard). Again, look at how Joe did when he was relegated to working with Jacoby, Torrey, Marlon and had no offensive line or running game. That's basically the situation Luck was in in his rookie year. He took a group of rookies and played far better than anyone should be reasonably expected to play. 

 

We're going to give Arians credit for those Super Bowls? I'm sure it was him who coached the top ranked defenses in the NFL and just crushed opponents. Their defenses were the biggest reason for those Super Bowls. And as far as Cam Cameron goes, they still utilized his offense in the Super Bowl, so it's not like they couldn't win with his system. Caldwell just utilized the players more effectively.

 

I'm just saying I don't think he's overrated.

[RavensFanMania]

Bridgewater and Flacco aren't elite tier players. They have no business being picked in the ten heck 1st round

You should check out PFF's signature stats, Bridgewater was one of the top QBs the last quarter of the year and Flacco was top 6 for the entire year.  Flacco represents good value at #7.

Edited May 11, 2015 by RavensFanMania

[RavensFanMania]

It's a tough year for QB. Most of that long lived upper tier are hitting their downfall, and we don't really have anyone ascending into that upper tier either.

Kind of hard to replace the Peyton and the Brady.  These are two of the best QB's that have ever played the game.  

[hn68wb4]

In case anyone is wondering, the first rookie QBs went off the board in the 3rd round the other two years (Manuel and Bridgewater).  

 

And yes, I was the idiot who took E.J. Manuel in the 3rd round.  

but to be fair, Manuel was a reach at 15 (i think it was 15) and Bridgewater was the 32nd pick, so its a little different

[CalvinSmoke]

Big Ben was my highest ranked older QB

honestly he was going to be my guy but pride wouldn't let me do it. Had to pick my poison

[hn68wb4]

honestly he was going to be my guy but pride wouldn't let me do it. Had to pick my poison

I'd draft Antonio Brown any day of the week but Ben wasn't even on my board

[allblackraven]

honestly he was going to be my guy but pride wouldn't let me do it. Had to pick my poison

In light of what happened last season (and was happening for god knows how long), pride shouldn't have let you pick whom you picked, either.

[Cville-Raven]

In light of what happened last season (and was happening for god knows how long), pride shouldn't have let you pick whom you picked, either.

lol yeah

[ravensdan]

So I had the last two QBs ranked 3 and 6. Winston I didn't even have ranked. Very surprised he went top 10. Leap of faith there. Tannehill I have just never liked. He's in a group with an Andy Dalton for me. Although I wonder if he could be better for another team.

[allblackraven]

So I had the last two QBs ranked 3 and 6. Winston I didn't even have ranked. Very surprised he went top 10. Leap of faith there. Tannehill I have just never liked. He's in a group with an Andy Dalton for me. Although I wonder if he could be better for another team.

Interesting. Looks like you and I have 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 rated the same.

[T3hRaven]

Spell the names correctly.

[Challenge Accepted]

hmm

[Challenge Accepted]

An easy decision personally

[hn68wb4]

An easy decision personally

pretty safe decision, losing Graham and Stills are pretty big blows though

[ludy51]

An easy decision personally

The 4th pick huh?

[-Truth-]

An easy decision personally

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I wish he would've fell to my pick.

[-Truth-]

pretty safe decision, losing Graham and Stills are pretty big blows though

 

True, but fortunately, he'll be able to put an ensemble of his own around Brees.

[Challenge Accepted]

The 4th pick huh?

Changed

[52520Andrew]

So, let's say a quarterback throws 20 interceptions, but every single interception was due to a perfectly placed pass and it bounces off the receivers hands and into the defenders hands, it's just a turnover and it's all on the quarterback, right? And Luck will throw a touchdown about every 39 passes with Flacco throwing one about every 46 passes. I do not consider that to be a massive difference, especially when one has an offensive line and a running game to ease the pressures of the pass defense. 

 

I didn't miss it and I'm not debating Luck over Flacco, but you were talking about him and I was just putting out a comparison to put it into perspective because everyone here is very familiar with Flacco. I mean, I could compare Luck's numbers to every single quarterback in the NFL, but the relevancy isn't there since not everyone followed David Garrard. 

 

I'm just saying it's far more impressive than anyone is giving it credit for. And I didn't call T.Y. Hilton or Dwayne Allen scrubs, but they DID come into the league with Andrew Luck, so it's a very big testament to Luck to be able to work with four starting rookies in base packages and do what he did (Hilton, Allen, Fleener, Ballard). Again, look at how Joe did when he was relegated to working with Jacoby, Torrey, Marlon and had no offensive line or running game. That's basically the situation Luck was in in his rookie year. He took a group of rookies and played far better than anyone should be reasonably expected to play. 

 

We're going to give Arians credit for those Super Bowls? I'm sure it was him who coached the top ranked defenses in the NFL and just crushed opponents. Their defenses were the biggest reason for those Super Bowls. And as far as Cam Cameron goes, they still utilized his offense in the Super Bowl, so it's not like they couldn't win with his system. Caldwell just utilized the players more effectively.

 

I'm just saying I don't think he's overrated.

 

And do you know that Luck's INTs came from receivers dropping passes all over the place? I could just as easily say they were all awful plays where he stared them all down but unless you have them all on film and want to break them down or someone else's breakdown then I don't see the point in going there. Also last I checked, Torrey had an 18.33% drop rate last year and SSS had some drops as well later in the season if I am remembering correctly. Flacco doesn't have a T.Y. Hilton or a Dwayne Allen. Luck has better receivers than Flacco has ever had so I don't see that point adding up either.

 

Yeah that is pretty good although I could counter by saying that Hilton, Allen, and Fleener were all round 3 or above picks(something Flacco has rarely gotten outside of Rice who took off with us, Torrey, and Dickson). I don't view it as being nearly as bad as 2013 though, A.Q. actually did fairly well at Center and while they weren't a good interior O-line, 2013 was probably the worst I have seen between Oher falling off a cliff, Gino being the worst Center in the league, A.Q. being overmatched at Guard, and then Big Mac. 2014 is the first year where there have been no major complaints by me on the line(outside of injuries but that was in general) outside of maybe 2011. Then we factor in Doss and Dickson being major contributors for us in 2013 and that was shaped up to be a disaster. 

 

That is a good point, just making sure as I find it odd that here I am saying he is my 2nd best player and you are coming to argue about it with me when there are others that have him lower. If I thought Luck were a top tier QB, he would be #1 on my board and probably everyone else's due to him being much younger than the other guys, I just don't think he is there yet. 

 

He won one as opposed to Cam who never did. Obviously the Steelers had a good defense but the Ravens defense was right up there as well and by 2010 or 2011, Flacco was ready to lead us to the promised land. Cam got in the way of Flacco, can't say the same about Arians. Also he was the guy who did draft Antonio Brown and T.Y. Hilton and has John Brown on the Cardinals now. If Cam could have gotten us a good receiver like that, well lets just say the forums would be a lot different, not that Cam would still be around.

 

Luck gets top 5 hype and he isn't top 5 for me, that is pretty much what it comes down to. I think Luck will get there and I will let you know when he does but it isn't quite yet for me. 

[NebraskaRavensFan44]

I wonder if knowing the suspension beforehand would've effected CalvinSmoke's pick.

[Mt. Crushmore]

And Calvin is going to need a QB for the first 4 weeks of the season.  

[rmw10]

I see the negs are rolling hot and heavy this year.

[Inqui]

I see the negs are rolling hot and heavy this year.

Negging picks really grates me when people don't back it up in the discussion thread. Especially in the later rounds, once personal preference becomes far more of a factor.

[hn68wb4]

I see the negs are rolling hot and heavy this year.

yep but i love it, let the negs wash over me. 9 and counting

Edited May 11, 2015 by hn68wb4

[Mt. Crushmore]

There is one player who will go early and I'm fascinated to see how early that is.

 

EDIT:  Actually it is 2

Edited May 11, 2015 by Mt. Crushmore

[Archeearl92]

Yes, I did not Draft a Romo, Manning or whoever, Yes I may have reached for Donald, Yes I do think he will be the 2nd Best Defensive Lineman behind Watt next year !

[-Truth-]

Yes, I did not Draft a Romo, Manning or whoever, Yes I may have reached for Donald, Yes I do think he will be the 2nd Best Defensive Lineman behind Watt next year !

 

Please no referring to players who are still available.

[Mt. Crushmore]

All 3 defensive players selected have been DL and 2 have been from St. Louis (or is it Los Angeles?).

[hn68wb4]

Aaron Donald is the first DT off the board, not sure if i agree but its an interesting move

[Inqui]

yep but i love it, let the negs wash over me. 9 and counting

They're pretty arbitrary in this game tbh. Doesn't mean an awful lot of anything.