Welcome to Baltimore: Za'Darius Smith, Javorius Allen and Tray Walker

[rmw10]

I see a lot of people that are pigeonholing Smith into being a run stopper and not much of a pass rusher, but remember that the same was said of McPhee. He was regarded as a 4-3 run stopping DE. I'm not sure if Smith will turn out the same, but I definitely would not pigeonhole him at this point.

[gabefergy]

I see a lot of people that are pigeonholing Smith into being a run stopper and not much of a pass rusher, but remember that the same was said of McPhee. He was regarded as a 4-3 run stopping DE. I'm not sure if Smith will turn out the same, but I definitely would not pigeonhole him at this point.

That is odd regarding Smith. He looks better as a pass rusher than run defender from the film I watched, not that he is a poor run defender either.

If people are judging his pass rushing off the Miss St game they need to watch other games. It is clear they had a gameplan to contain Prescott in the pocket and not rush upfield while playing run first.

[rmw10]

That is odd regarding Smith. He looks better as a pass rusher than run defender from the film I watched, not that he is a poor run defender either.

If people are judging his pass rushing off the Miss St game they need to watch other games. It is clear they had a gameplan to contain Prescott in the pocket and not rush upfield while playing run first.

 

I think a lot of people see (or better yet, read) that he's not an overly explosive or fast athlete, and they automatically assume that he's best setting the edge.

[Sami84]

I like this pick..Hes better value than dupree in my opinion who is pretty overrated. I think we did well to not get him..I've been watching him over and over to see if we lost on something and to be honest I think Za'Darius Smith is a better football player than him. More powerful and actually more effective..

[beasy2487]

I think a lot of people see (or better yet, read) that he's not an overly explosive or fast athlete, and they automatically assume that he's best setting the edge.

I'm hoping that Upshaw learns some pass rush moves from Smith. Courtney will never have Smith's footwork but he can definitely pick up some hand techniques.

[TXRavensFan]

I like this pick..Hes better value than dupree in my opinion who is pretty overrated. I think we did well to not get him..I've been watching him over and over to see if we lost on something and to be honest I think Za'Darius Smith is a better football player than him. More powerful and actually more effective..

 

Wow. That's the only thing I think I've agreed with you concerning this draft.

[Sami84]

i think we made a mistake not taking tony lippett over tray walker..he can play both corner/wr and has a real feel for the position and excellent size.

[GrimCoconut]

i think we made a mistake not taking tony lippett over tray walker..he can play both corner/wr and has a real feel for the position and excellent size.

I've kept tabs on him because he was a guy I was interested in at CB, and wondered if he could actually make the switch. Granted, it was rookie minicamp, but from what I read he looked horrible at CB. Granted, he's changing positions so that's kinda expected, but I heard it wasn't very good. 

[mmcclend]

I could be wrong but buck allen reminds me of pierce some clips and Arian foster in others.

[CalvinSmoke]

I could be wrong but buck allen reminds me of pierce some clips and Arian foster in others.

He is definitely our Pierce replacement.i wish him the best in Florida, because he had so much talent.

[beasy2487]

He is definitely our Pierce replacement.i wish him the best in Florida, because he had so much talent.

To me, Pierce's greatest strength was his ultimate downfall. He's naturally a fast, violent runner. The violence though, which he needed to maintain to be successful at the NFL level, was created by the sheer chaos of his running style. He always seemed to be out control when he was running. The problem was, that style led to a lot of unbraced impact—with other players and the field—causing frequent injury relative to the position he played.

Coaching did a good job of getting him under control, but I don't think it's any surprise that as he gained more control he became less effective. The chaos is what made him good but it was also unsustainable. To run like that you need a body like DeMarco Murray or Adrian Peterson...and what do those guys also have in common? Injuries!

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I like this pick..Hes better value than dupree in my opinion who is pretty overrated. I think we did well to not get him..I've been watching him over and over to see if we lost on something and to be honest I think Za'Darius Smith is a better football player than him. More powerful and actually more effective..

Agreed, I think smith is the better football player by far. Dupree is a far better athlete and for that reason alone may have a higher ceiling. If Dupree can learn football he has the potential to be a dominant pass rusher though I don't think he'll ever become well rounded because he's not patient or disciplined enough to play the run at an elite level.

Smith is new to football (I think senior year of HS was his first time playing) so developmentally we may only be seeing the tip of the ice berg.

And to be that new to the game, his arsenal of pass rush moves is really impressive. His hands and footwork are top notch. It's clear he understands how to win 1-on-1 with technique even when his athleticism doesn't allow him to win right away.

He re-establishes himself and takes the appropriate angle to attack the QB even when he's blocked past the play or the QB scrambles. He understands his role within a scheme or even a certain play and was partially responsible on some if not many of Dupree's big plays.

For the guy to be as polished as he is in his technique and understanding of the game this early on in his development is really really impressive. It's exciting that he'll get to continue that development in black and purple.

If I was betting on which of the 2 has a longer, more successful career when all is said and done I honestly believe Smith is the safer bet. IMO his floor is to be a solid rotational pro that will always have a market as that 2nd or 3rd situational pass rusher.

Dupree has the requisite athleticism and raw ability but has much further to go when it comes to learning the game and the detailed technique necessary to succeed at the pro level. Much more likely to completely bust.

Edited May 14, 2015 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

I'm hoping that Upshaw learns some pass rush moves from Smith. Courtney will never have Smith's footwork but he can definitely pick up some hand techniques.

Upshaw has sledge hammers for hands!

My goodness if the guy could learn some pass rush moves and get some quickness and flexibility in those hips he really could be an effective pass rusher.

Unfortunately I just don't think it's ever going to happen. He's the next (or current?) JJ. He'll never be a household name with gaudy stats or probowls but his value to the team and organization is huge.

Play Like a Raven.

[January J]

Upshaw has sledge hammers for hands!

My goodness if the guy could learn some pass rush moves and get some quickness and flexibility in those hips he really could be an effective pass rusher.

Unfortunately I just don't think it's ever going to happen. He's the next (or current?) JJ. He'll never be a household name with gaudy stats or probowls but his value to the team and organization is huge.

Play Like a Raven.

upshaw Is really gonna take off this year- esp this being a contract year- he's really gona push himself and take that next step. I think zadarius will also have a strong first season. Also kind of thinking buck will kind of be our 2012 Bernard peirce from the postseason. That's what he reminds me of. Not sure about tray walker but I will reserve any judgment until I see more- haven't seen enough.

[GrimCoconut]

upshaw Is really gonna take off this year- esp this being a contract year- he's really gona push himself and take that next step. I think zadarius will also have a strong first season. Also kind of thinking buck will kind of be our 2012 Bernard peirce from the postseason. That's what he reminds me of. Not sure about tray walker but I will reserve any judgment until I see more- haven't seen enough.

Yeah I think Upshaw has a good year. I think he'll be used similar to McPhee. We've done it before. I think he'll probably be one of our compensatory picks next year, along with one of KO or Yanda (I'm thinking KO) and Will Hill.

[Static]

Yeah I think Upshaw has a good year. I think he'll be used similar to McPhee. We've done it before. I think he'll probably be one of our compensatory picks next year, along with one of KO or Yanda (I'm thinking KO) and Will Hill.

 

Gosh , I hope we keep Will, can't draft a good safety anymore. They're hard to find.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Static

[RobFuseRaven]

Upshaw has sledge hammers for hands!

My goodness if the guy could learn some pass rush moves and get some quickness and flexibility in those hips he really could be an effective pass rusher.

Unfortunately I just don't think it's ever going to happen. He's the next (or current?) JJ. He'll never be a household name with gaudy stats or probowls but his value to the team and organization is huge.

Play Like a Raven.

 

Tell me about it. There's so many people that comment on NFL.com that still think Upshaw is a bust. People think that because he doesn't have the flashy sacks, he must be a bust. Arguing with those people is like pulling teeth.

[Ravens4Real]

Agreed, I think smith is the better football player by far. Dupree is a far better athlete and for that reason alone may have a higher ceiling. If Dupree can learn football he has the potential to be a dominant pass rusher though I don't think he'll ever become well rounded because he's not patient or disciplined enough to play the run at an elite level.

Smith is new to football (I think senior year of HS was his first time playing) so developmentally we may only be seeing the tip of the ice berg.

And to be that new to the game, his arsenal of pass rush moves is really impressive. His hands and footwork are top notch. It's clear he understands how to win 1-on-1 with technique even when his athleticism doesn't allow him to win right away.

He re-establishes himself and takes the appropriate angle to attack the QB even when he's blocked past the play or the QB scrambles. He understands his role within a scheme or even a certain play and was partially responsible on some if not many of Dupree's big plays.

For the guy to be as polished as he is in his technique and understanding of the game this early on in his development is really really impressive. It's exciting that he'll get to continue that development in black and purple.

If I was betting on which of the 2 has a longer, more successful career when all is said and done I honestly believe Smith is the safer bet. IMO his floor is to be a solid rotational pro that will always have a market as that 2nd or 3rd situational pass rusher.

Dupree has the requisite athleticism and raw ability but has much further to go when it comes to learning the game and the detailed technique necessary to succeed at the pro level. Much more likely to completely bust.

Some of you guys and your optimism is great to read. I can understand now the people that read the Steelers forum and see them saying that Jesse James is going to be better than Max Williams because the exact same thing happens on our boards.

I'd like to agree with you guys but, through watching film, just can't even come close. Smith seems slow off the ball to me and if that's the case, he better have strength to bull rush elite tackles and I don't see it on film. He's adequately fast that we can run stunts and such with him, just like McPhee. I feel that is his ceiling is amounting to what McPhee was. OLB is going to be a MAJOR need in a year or two because I just don't see Smith being able to start and play full time.

Now to Dupree. I hate to do this because he is on our biggest rivals team, but, I was ABSOLUTELY in love with this kid. Would have done back flips if we could have landed him in the first. I don't even know who to compare him to in the NFL. 6'4 270 and runs a 4.5. I don't know who has that size and speed comparison in the NFL.

There are only two real flaws in his game at the moment. He doesn't have a real complete set of pass rushing skills, at the moment (but can be taught). Secondly, some plays, he just simply looks like he has no clue what to do. He hesitates at the line and looks as if he's a QB spy but that can't be the case playing OLB. But when this kid does seem to know what he is doing, he looks like he was shot out of a cannon. I'll give the Steelers one thing, they're turning their defense into one fast as heck one.

Summarize, I love Dupree. These guys are all rookies and meant to be taught up. They aren't coming in here and being all pros. OBJ as an outlier. If the Steelers give this kid time to learn and teach him what he is doing every play, he is going to turn out to be real good (as much as it pains me to say).

[ravensnick]

Some of you guys and your optimism is great to read. I can understand now the people that read the Steelers forum and see them saying that Jesse James is going to be better than Max Williams because the exact same thing happens on our boards.

I'd like to agree with you guys but, through watching film, just can't even come close. Smith seems slow off the ball to me and if that's the case, he better have strength to bull rush elite tackles and I don't see it on film. He's adequately fast that we can run stunts and such with him, just like McPhee. I feel that is his ceiling is amounting to what McPhee was. OLB is going to be a MAJOR need in a year or two because I just don't see Smith being able to start and play full time.

Now to Dupree. I hate to do this because he is on our biggest rivals team, but, I was ABSOLUTELY in love with this kid. Would have done back flips if we could have landed him in the first. I don't even know who to compare him to in the NFL. 6'4 270 and runs a 4.5. I don't know who has that size and speed comparison in the NFL.

There are only two real flaws in his game at the moment. He doesn't have a real complete set of pass rushing skills, at the moment (but can be taught). Secondly, some plays, he just simply looks like he has no clue what to do. He hesitates at the line and looks as if he's a QB spy but that can't be the case playing OLB. But when this kid does seem to know what he is doing, he looks like he was shot out of a cannon. I'll give the Steelers one thing, they're turning their defense into one fast as heck one.

Summarize, I love Dupree. These guys are all rookies and meant to be taught up. They aren't coming in here and being all pros. OBJ as an outlier. If the Steelers give this kid time to learn and teach him what he is doing every play, he is going to turn out to be real good (as much as it pains me to say).

Clowney and Julius Peppers come to mind. On a side note, Mario Williams ran a 4.66 at the combine weighing 295 lbs.

Edited May 15, 2015 by ravensnick

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Some of you guys and your optimism is great to read. I can understand now the people that read the Steelers forum and see them saying that Jesse James is going to be better than Max Williams because the exact same thing happens on our boards.

I'd like to agree with you guys but, through watching film, just can't even come close. Smith seems slow off the ball to me and if that's the case, he better have strength to bull rush elite tackles and I don't see it on film. He's adequately fast that we can run stunts and such with him, just like McPhee. I feel that is his ceiling is amounting to what McPhee was. OLB is going to be a MAJOR need in a year or two because I just don't see Smith being able to start and play full time.

Now to Dupree. I hate to do this because he is on our biggest rivals team, but, I was ABSOLUTELY in love with this kid. Would have done back flips if we could have landed him in the first. I don't even know who to compare him to in the NFL. 6'4 270 and runs a 4.5. I don't know who has that size and speed comparison in the NFL.

There are only two real flaws in his game at the moment. He doesn't have a real complete set of pass rushing skills, at the moment (but can be taught). Secondly, some plays, he just simply looks like he has no clue what to do. He hesitates at the line and looks as if he's a QB spy but that can't be the case playing OLB. But when this kid does seem to know what he is doing, he looks like he was shot out of a cannon. I'll give the Steelers one thing, they're turning their defense into one fast as heck one.

Summarize, I love Dupree. These guys are all rookies and meant to be taught up. They aren't coming in here and being all pros. OBJ as an outlier. If the Steelers give this kid time to learn and teach him what he is doing every play, he is going to turn out to be real good (as much as it pains me to say).

All season McPhee was rated in the top 5 for OLB by PFF and I believe had the top pass rush efficiency grade. No he wasn't a full time player but if you can get that out of another 4th round pick that's a steal

Saying his ceiling is McPhee as if that's some sort of knock on him seems kind of silly with that in mind. With Suggs and Doom both likely having another 2-3 good years left in them that's all he really needs to be and that's 2-3 years more to draft the guy that's going to become our dominant every down edge rusher.

And I don't think I or anyone else has said that Za'Darius will be better than Dupree. Just that he's a safer bet to contribute early on since he already has the pass rushing repertoire and technique necessary to win at this level. He doesn't have elite athleticism which keeps his ceiling relatively low but his floor is much higher

Tackles in the NFL aren't going to regularly be beat off the edge with speed alone which Dupree seems to solely rely on right now. He is THAT athletic where he'll still make splash plays early on but until he learns some moves and refines technique he won't be a consistent threat. Not saying he can't or won't learn but even if he does it will take time, so I think early on Za'Darius is the safer bet to make an impact.

Dupree can become an elite pass rusher where Smith likely won't. But there have been plenty of athletic freaks who have washed out of the league bc they rely solely on their athleticism. Plus in Pitts defense he's probably going to be asked to drop into coverage and play the run effectively in order to see regular snaps - 2 things he's barely been asked to do at all.

Jarvis and Worlids - two pretty highly rated olb's coming out that have failed to amount to anything at all there. I like Dupree better than I liked either, but like them if he can't develop a well rounded game he'll find it tough to get on the field consistently. And if he doesn't, we'll then he's a situational pass rusher, and if that's the case than being Pernell McPhee is about as good as it gets (from an efficiency and pressure standpoint) so then were talking about 2 players that end up having a similar impact - just one who does it with freak athleticism and one who does it with technique.

And if I'm a betting man I tend to side with the players who are technicians coming out over the athletic freaks bc they don't have as far to go.

Edited May 15, 2015 by BOLDnPurPnBlacK

[allblackraven]

All season McPhee was rated in the top 5 for OLB by PFF and I believe had the top pass rush efficiency grade. No he wasn't a full time player but if you can get that out of another 4th round pick that's a steal

Saying his ceiling is McPhee as if that's some sort of knock on him seems kind of silly with that in mind. With Suggs and Doom both likely having another 2-3 good years left in them that's all he really needs to be and that's 2-3 years more to draft the guy that's going to become our dominant every down edge rusher.

 

 

You're absolutely right but what bothers me more is the overuse of the ceiling/floor qualifications on players who haven't even completed their first OTA. That happens a lot around here.

 

I also hope you're right about 2-3 more good years from Sizzle and Dumervil.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

You're absolutely right but what bothers me more is the overuse of the ceiling/floor qualifications on players who haven't even completed their first OTA. That happens a lot around here.

I also hope you're right about 2-3 more good years from Sizzle and Dumervil.

I hear ya, I'm guilty of it myself pretty often. I guess it's because you're absolutely right - they haven't played a snap so we, really no one, has the slightest clue what they'll be. But if we all just accept that and only talk about what we actually know then there's nothing to discuss.

Trying to assess potential or best case vs. worst case scenarios and creating a spectrum of where a player will likely fall is about the best we can do until we have some tape to work with.

So it can be fun to look at a guy, his physical traits and skill set and then look back at a group of players who were similar coming out of college and how their careers turned out to give yourself at least a mildly accurate system of prediction.

So you look at those guys and say ok the best of the bunch became solid starters but no pro bowlers, and the worst of the bunch played 5 years and were rotational guys but no real busts.

While it's still a total crapshoot and complete guesswork, it at least gives you a standard of comparison and something to project on... To say ok most likely at best we landed ourselves a solid starter and at worst a guy who can give us some snaps but doesn't solve your need for a starter.

Really it's the same thing that scouts and GMs have to do because they don't know anything either.

[ravensnick]

Upshaw has sledge hammers for hands!

My goodness if the guy could learn some pass rush moves and get some quickness and flexibility in those hips he really could be an effective pass rusher.

Unfortunately I just don't think it's ever going to happen. He's the next (or current?) JJ. He'll never be a household name with gaudy stats or probowls but his value to the team and organization is huge.

Play Like a Raven.

That not just something you get. Upshaw has always struggled with quickness and flexibility. It's likely to never change, but he is one of the best run stuffers in the NFL. I think the JJ comparison on what he brings to the team is pretty accurate. 

[52520Andrew]

It is crazy how much Za'Darius Smith looks like McPhee, same number and everything. We will see if he plays like him but a couple times now looking through the video I am thinking I am seeing McPhee again.

[PurpleCity5]

It is crazy how much Za'Darius Smith looks like McPhee, same number and everything. We will see if he plays like him but a couple times now looking through the video I am thinking I am seeing McPhee again.

Yeah, I think his rookie year will be very similar to McPhee's. What I love about Smith is that he's an edge-settler. If he can develop a more consistent and stronger pass rush, then he can be an every down OLB for us. 

[Ravens4Real]

All season McPhee was rated in the top 5 for OLB by PFF and I believe had the top pass rush efficiency grade. No he wasn't a full time player but if you can get that out of another 4th round pick that's a steal

Saying his ceiling is McPhee as if that's some sort of knock on him seems kind of silly with that in mind. With Suggs and Doom both likely having another 2-3 good years left in them that's all he really needs to be and that's 2-3 years more to draft the guy that's going to become our dominant every down edge rusher.

And I don't think I or anyone else has said that Za'Darius will be better than Dupree. Just that he's a safer bet to contribute early on since he already has the pass rushing repertoire and technique necessary to win at this level. He doesn't have elite athleticism which keeps his ceiling relatively low but his floor is much higher

Tackles in the NFL aren't going to regularly be beat off the edge with speed alone which Dupree seems to solely rely on right now. He is THAT athletic where he'll still make splash plays early on but until he learns some moves and refines technique he won't be a consistent threat. Not saying he can't or won't learn but even if he does it will take time, so I think early on Za'Darius is the safer bet to make an impact.

Dupree can become an elite pass rusher where Smith likely won't. But there have been plenty of athletic freaks who have washed out of the league bc they rely solely on their athleticism. Plus in Pitts defense he's probably going to be asked to drop into coverage and play the run effectively in order to see regular snaps - 2 things he's barely been asked to do at all.

Jarvis and Worlids - two pretty highly rated olb's coming out that have failed to amount to anything at all there. I like Dupree better than I liked either, but like them if he can't develop a well rounded game he'll find it tough to get on the field consistently. And if he doesn't, we'll then he's a situational pass rusher, and if that's the case than being Pernell McPhee is about as good as it gets (from an efficiency and pressure standpoint) so then were talking about 2 players that end up having a similar impact - just one who does it with freak athleticism and one who does it with technique.

And if I'm a betting man I tend to side with the players who are technicians coming out over the athletic freaks bc they don't have as far to go.

By you saying that he has been barely asked to drop into coverage is a statement that I now know you haven't done much research on Dupree. Every analyst that I have read, has stated that dropping into coverage is the best part of his game.

[Ravens4Real]

I also truly believe that McPhee was graded so high and had so much effectiveness because of the players around him. He always had Suggs and Dumervill to take away any potential double team. Heck you think about it, he was probably the offenses fourth most worry on passing downs behind Suggs, Dumervill and Ngata.

[gabefergy]

By you saying that he has been barely asked to drop into coverage is a statement that I now know you haven't done much research on Dupree. Every analyst that I have read, has stated that dropping into coverage is the best part of his game.

They said the same thing about Jarvis Jones and Dion Jordan. If dropping into coverage is the best attribute of a 3-4 OLB he is in for a poor career.

I think Dupree has potential, but he is very raw. Smith is raw in some apsects as well, but he displays a greater understanding of hand usage and leverage than I have seen from Dupree who mostly just used his athleticism as a pass rusher.

[Static]

They said the same thing about Jarvis Jones and Dion Jordan. If dropping into coverage is the best attribute of a 3-4 OLB he is in for a poor career.

I think Dupree has potential, but he is very raw. Smith is raw in some apsects as well, but he displays a greater understanding of hand usage and leverage than I have seen from Dupree who mostly just used his athleticism as a pass rusher.

 

 

 I thought Dupree was a 2nd rounder based on pure potential. He has got zero polish on his game. How can you be a premier pass rusher with 1 and half rushing moves. 

[ravensdan]

I thought Dupree was a 2nd rounder based on pure potential. He has got zero polish on his game. How can you be a premier pass rusher with 1 and half rushing moves.

im not sure he is a pure edge rusher. It's a reason I was apprehensive about us potentialy drafting Dupree. I have heard Dupree's best role being one like Jamie Collins due to the strong coverage skills and athleticism. Preston Smith was my favorite choice but our Smith is not a dissimilar player.