Haloti Ngata traded to Lions

[Guest]

Economics 101... dead money is a sunk cost. It should have virtually no bearing on decision making, because there is no decision that can be made to alter that amount. Its a cost that was paid years prior that the Ravens decided to allocate over a period of time.

 

The consideration is... is Ngata worth $8.5M to this team? The answer, apparently, was no.

 

You're analyzing those allocations going Forward from a fixed point.  The problem is that in looking back from a certain fixed point we've seen a "Cap Crisis" 2 of the past 3 years, resulting in the jettison of key veterans. Not just any veterans...key veterans.  Hopefully this one won't impact the team as negatively.

 

The issue is not where you go from mismanagement.  It's how much mismanagement do you tolerate?

 

Lets put it this way....Many of the other teams will have 143 million dollars to allocate.  The Baltimore Ravens will have 125.5 million. (Not even that)  Does that sound like good economics?  Does that sound like the type of math that is going to put your team on equal footing with the other teams?  That's a rhetorical question.

 

Now....your managers can be horrible allocators and redeem themselves with good personnel decisions and having plenty of cracks at personnel.  That's your better defense.

 

Lastly I'd point out we used the Boldin money to sign Chris Canty, that horrid safety from Oakland whose name I forget and an equally tragic Defensive Tackle from Dallas is my recollection. Also that Brandon Stokely.  We invested in vapor, spent more money than we saved and lost a proven performer. Hopefully this go round won't be as tragic.

 

My uncle is an esteemed Economics Professor and though I don't purport to his level, he doesn't like your economics. 

[rmcjacket23]

there's a difference. I mean you can still find great to good players later. And I give the Ravens more credit than anybody at finding undrafted players and turning them into studs. But typically first 3 rounds is where its at unless somebody drops because of baggage and character flaws. If you want a sniff at somebody thats going to line up and start from day 1 and be good at it I'd look to the first 3 rounds. There's always exceptions and things can always change in an instant, but outside of abs that are another animal entirely after the third its a little different imo.

But historically, if you look at the kind of players we get in the third round vs the fourth/fifth round, its not a major difference.

 

3rd round: Terrence Brooks, Crockett Gillmore, Brandon Williams, Bernard Pierce, Jah Reid, Ed Dickson

4th round: Brent Urban, Taliaferro, John Simon, Juice, Gino Gradkowski, Christian Thompson, Tandon Doss, Dennis Pitta

5th round: John Urschel, Rick Wagner, Asa Jackson, Pernell McPhee, Chykie Brown, David Reed, Art Jones

[1/28/01]

Thanks Ngata. You cost us Owen Daniels and Torrey Smith because you were being greedy. I get he needs to make money but he should have thought about the team before himself.

Both Daniels and Torrey signed contracts we could have attempted to match if he would have signed an extension in the first place.

Hahahahaha! I love your posts!

[rmcjacket23]

You're analyzing those allocations going Forward from a fixed point.  The problem is that in looking back from a certain fixed point we've seen a "Cap Crisis" 2 of the past 3 years, resulting in the jettison of key veterans. Not just any veterans...key veterans.  Hopefully this one won't impact the team as negatively.

 

The issue is not were you go from mismanagement.  It's how much mismanagement do you tolerate?

 

Lets put it this way....Many of the other teams will have 143 million dollars to allocate.  The Baltimore Ravens will have 125.5 million.  Does that sound like good economics?  Does that sound like the type of math that is going to put your team on equal footing with the other teams?  That's a rhetorical question.

 

Now....your managers can be horrible allocators and redeem themselves with good personnel decisions and having plenty of cracks at personnel.  That's your better defense.

 

Lastly I'd point out we used the Boldin money to sign Chris Canty, that horrid safety from Oakland whose name I forget and an equally tragic Defensive Tackle from Dallas is my recollection. Also that Brandon Stokely.  We invested in vapor, spent more money that we saved on it and lost a proven performer. Hopefully this go round won't be as tragic.

 

My uncle is an esteemed Economics Professor and though I don't purport to his level, he doesn't like your economics. 

For starters, you and I both know that $9.5M of that dead money is based on a scenario that no management on the planet could account for.

 

As far as Ngata goes, the FO fully recognized that Ngata would have this cap number and this decision to make basically five years ago. Its the tradeoff of signing an elite player to a big contract... you can't always spread the money out evenly, because that can be detrimental to the short-term of the franchise. While I'm all for looking out for the long-term of the franchise, you also have to consider the timeframe of the contract.

 

What was going on in 2011 when the Ravens signed him to this deal? Were we not an elite team in a very serious contention for a SB ring? Hence, good management from a team that really wants to win a SB ring in the short-term would dictate that the franchise create a contract structure that allows them to add players in the short term to make a run at a SB. That's why you see cap hits of around $11M total in the first two years of his deal. Given the success of the team, structures like this and other contracts are directly related to the franchises ability to win a SB.

 

The Boldin argument is years old, and its been debunked time and time again. You can't just cherry pick which players you think we got for Boldin's money. I could make the exact same article, except say that we basically traded Boldin for Dumervil, because there is no possible way to say with any accuracy that Dumervil is a member of this team if Boldin was. We just don't know.

 

You hit a good point from a fan perspective though... fans have the luxury of "looking back". Fans get to see the future, and then get to go on message boards and second-guess. The problem is... no good franchise has the luxury of analyzing future decisions on a "lookback" method. There isn't a single NFL management personnel member who has ever been successful in this league compiling a team based on looking backwards. The Ravens have known for many years that this season was going to be a decision season for Ngata, and frankly, so did fans. It was an expectation. There are no surprises here.

[Sizzlebshu]

Thanks Ngata. You cost us Owen Daniels and Torrey Smith because you were being greedy. I get he needs to make money but he should have thought about the team before himself.

Both Daniels and Torrey signed contracts we could have attempted to match if he would have signed an extension in the first place.

.RB

No the team should have thought of the team before giving a contract with that kind of poison pill. The team should have cut or traded him before the market opened

Ngata was exactly right here to do what he did. The FO cost themselves by being indecisive and trying be greedy by trying to force a restructure through when it was evident that t was not gonna happen.

[ravensfan160]

I'm really surprised the Lions and Ngata don't already have an extension worked out. They're taking a risk sort of like we did with Monroe. The only difference is we're the Ravens and Monroe was coming from the Jaguars. Ngata might be one and done in Detroit especially if another team wants to overpay. Ngata's not like a lot of aging veterans looking for the best place to win and get a ring. Ngata has a ring already. He seems to just be chasing the money now.

[beasy2487]

Good trade. Interested to see what we do with the picks.

[ratedr]

Thanks Ngata. You cost us Owen Daniels and Torrey Smith because you were being greedy. I get he needs to make money but he should have thought about the team before himself.

Both Daniels and Torrey signed contracts we could have attempted to match if he would have signed an extension in the first place.

I'm 100% fine with not giving Torrey $8M a year and Daniels is basically Kubiak's son, has played his ENTIRE career with him. We didn't miss out on anything imo.

 

Thanks for your services Ngata, but I'm ready to roll with BWill, Jernigan, and that fresh cap space. Not to mention that Ozzie managed to get a 4 and a 5 for a player he was gonna cut anyway.

[Guest]

For starters, you and I both know that $9.5M of that dead money is based on a scenario that no management on the planet could account for.

 

 

I'm gonna address this one point and drop it hoping we recover from some more bad office work.

 

We didn't have to get zero value from the Ray Rice disaster.  He could be playing this year. Ray Rice told the truth and the NFL and Ravens were more than willing to give Rice a minor punishment based upon that truth.  It only went ballistic when a grainy video was released.

 

What did the NFL and Raven brass think that domestic violence looked like?  If you really think it's about principle then what was done after the video was released has convinced you. Others are less convinced.

 

I believe the retroactive decisions in the Rice matter have to be factored in evaluating management too. Oz to his credit told the truth.

[redrum52]

Ngata wants to retire after this year. That's why he didn't want extension.

This is what I was leaning toward. People here just assume he's pulling an Ed Reed, but the truth may be, he's just ready to call it quits and that's why he didn't so the extension. I think a few years ago he said he didn't plan on playing much longer or something along the lines of leaving the game at the right time so he can still function properly, when his career is over.

[Greatness]

Only a 4th and 5th...Ray Rice has screwed us so hard.

More so the Ravens for panicking.

 

But yeah, I thought we should've at least got a 3rd. In the end we still robbed them though. Last year of his deal and we got 2 picks out of it and much needed cap space. Not bad.

[CalvinSmoke]

I have no ill will towards ngata. He was still under contract and was playing well. With one year left. I feel the same way for boldin. That the ravens misstep, not the players in this case.

[baltimorefan328]

Ngata wants to retire after this year. That's why he didn't want extension.

Good call, I hope he wants to sign a one day contract here and retire a Raven. Ngata was great for us but this trade was terrific. For those saying we should have gotten more, I'm surprised we didnt get less. This is a guy who the Ravens either had to cut or keep for $16 million. Instead they got a 4th and a 5th, I mean I can't see how they could have gotten anything more. They essentially lose one year of Ngata and in return get an $8.5 million dollar check and two mid round draft picks

[chunkywill25]

Nah, we wouldn't move on from Ngata  and then turn around and pay Fairley big bucks. Obviously the FO believes in Jernigan/Williams or we would've just paid Ngata. The whole point in trading Ngata and opening up cap room is that we already have solid options at DT on the roster. That money will be spent at TE, WR,CB, or SS.

thats true but fairley is young and has a lot of upside. our defense would be dominant. i get your point though

[gtalk12]

Sucks to see him go, but it had to be done

[Bltravens]

My only thoughts on this are, the team signed him to a contract and its up to them to fulfill it.  Haloti is under no obligation to back out of his contract, especially when teams dump players to the curb like yesterday's trash.

However, it would have been nice for Ngata to recognize what he could have had here, basically a job until he retires and while he would have had to take a pay cut now, it's likely he would have been over compensated when he was in the mid 30s (assuming he plays that long), much like Ray was and Suggs will be.  Those guys retired Ravens and were paid much more than their market value was (in Rays case at 34-37) and Suggs will be (31-35).  No other team is going to pay a 33+ DT more than a 2 year deal at a couple mil with hardly any guaranteed.

[bauer77]

I really wish Ngata would have been able to retire a Raven, following along in Suggs and Ray's footsteps by playing for us their entire careers. But, I can understand him wanting to get another payday before he retires. 

 

On the other hand, I'm fine with the trade. Brought us 2 mid round picks, and frees up (along with Suggs' restructure) about $10M, cap space we desperately need right now. 

[tolucaraven]

He said male family members don't live long in his family that's why he lost a lot of weight a few years ago. It didn't help his play. So he gained weight instead and had to take uppers. He has been contacted to extend for a few years now and doesn't want to. He alluded to retirement a few years ago. He cashed in, but wants one more 16 million. Then lead a healthy life with his kids.

[Gordo52]

Losing Reed to the Texans a couple years ago has kinda numbed me to losing players.... Ngata & Torrey really hurt, but I'm already over it. Our front office is very aware of what they're losing and what they're going to do next.

Anyone who is mad at Haloti & Torrey for choosing more money is wrong.... I'm happy for the memories and wish em the best. Hopefully Ngata can come back one day and retire with us. Raven-Steeler games won't be the same.

[PurpleCity5]

Losing Reed to the Texans a couple years ago has kinda numbed me to losing players.... Ngata & Torrey really hurt, but I'm already over it. Our front office is very aware of what they're losing and what they're going to do next.

Anyone who is mad at Haloti & Torrey for choosing more money is wrong.... I'm happy for the memories and wish em the best. Hopefully Ngata can come back one day and retire with us. Raven-Steeler games won't be the same.

[Gordo52]

As long as Sizzle is here, nothing will change between Ravens-Steelers.

Ngata has been a big part of the rivalry as well. I'll forever remember Roethlisburger's out of place nose.

[tolucaraven]

It's good for Haloti and the Ravens. They save 8.5$ and get a 4th and a 5th. So basically it's like a 4 for 1 player trade more or less. You trade Ngata at 31 get two draft players and 2 or maybe 3 FAs in return. Likely a 4 for 1 trade, while saving $$$.

[PurpleCity5]

Ngata has been a big part of the rivalry as well. I'll forever remember Roethlisburger's out of place nose.

Very true, but Sizzle is a driving force.

[52520Andrew]

Fine with this, he didn't want a pay cut with us so he knows the deal. Not a bad haul considering the max we would have gotten out of him in terms of comp picks was a 5th. Plus we now have extra cap space to actually sign someone although I don't believe we are doing anything right now.

[CTFan]

I'm sure Detroit and Ngata negotiated an extension before the trade. So Ngata will get paid. Hope he likes it in Detroit.

 

I kind of doubt that. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see him a FA next year. 

 

I would have been happy to release him for cap space, so I'm thrilled we got something for him. I like Ngata, and appreciate what he's done for us, but I think we can improve the team more with $8.5M than to spend it on the DL.

[Hardbaugh]

This looks like a good trade for both sides.  I would have liked to see the Ravens get a 3rd but getting a fourth and fifth for someone they were going to release is okay with me. 

 

Detroit can recoup their picks depending upon what Ngata does this season.  If he choses to cash in and doesn't with Detriot maybe they get a third in compensation?

 

I feel the Ravens overpaid for his services and didn't want to see them do it again.  I appreciate his contributions but when your paying that kind of money a player should be a 3 down player. I'd cringe when Ngata would come off the field on passing downs. When a team is paying that kind of money they need to be disruptive every year and almost every defensive down. 

[Tiz]

Thanks Ngata. You cost us Owen Daniels and Torrey Smith because you were being greedy. I get he needs to make money but he should have thought about the team before himself.

Both Daniels and Torrey signed contracts we could have attempted to match if he would have signed an extension in the first place.

No it didn't. Owen wanted to follow kubiak. That was expected and his contract was one that we could have matched before the ngata trade. Torrey also said his goodbyes with plenty of time left to maneuver under the cap.

Neither player coming back has to do with ngata. The fact that both signed within minutes of being able to means there was no chance or desire to re-sign here. Torrey was recruited by boldin and made up his mind long ago. And again Owen is nothing if not loyal to kubiak c

[Sami84]

torrey is a speed based wide receiver. He's got 2 more seasons until he becomes pretty useless. (unless he improves other aspects of him game)

 

The guy i wanted to keep the most in all this was McPhee..he really is a darn good player

[PolishRifle]

Andrew Brandt        ✔ @adbrandt Follow

Heard more about Ngata trade. Ravens wanted Cap restructure, player wanted extension. Found a suitor, rebuffed by their DT named Suh.

[BirdWatcher]

Andrew Brandt        ✔ @adbrandt Follow

Heard more about Ngata trade. Ravens wanted Cap restructure, player wanted extension. Found a suitor, rebuffed by their DT named Suh.

That's the opposite of everything we've heard from everyone else. A restructure would not have helped since he's in his last year. Only an extension would have given us cap relief.