Could Aiken and/or Brown fill in for Torrey?

[gooftroop]

I don't know if you were serious or just kinda thinking aloud, but some of those underthrown balls were simply bad throws.

 

That said, a lot of the overthrown passes were on Torrey. He really struggles tracking the ball, and if you have ever seen him in person, you certainly noticed how he often zig zags trying to track the ball...resulting in an overthrow. In fairness, a portion of those times were probably intentional, because it looked to me he would intentionally slow down, then speed up at the last second so that he could "explode" through the route at the moment he caught the ball; unforutnately he just mistimed it a lot.

 

The underthrows....I'd guesstimate that 65% of them were plain bad throws, and 35% Torrey not running a crisp route (partially due to Torrey being Torrey, partially due to horrible protection throwing off the timing of the play).

 

Just my two pence...

Not so sure. Like you just said, Torrey seems to struggle tracking those deep throws that require an over-the-shoulder type of catch...

[RavensFanMania]

joe has to dial back his arm on his deep throws, resulting in underthrows. 

 

his arm is so freakishly strong that even a wr with torreys speed would get overthrown every time if joe just let'er rip. 

 

if joe wants to just launch it and have the receiver run under it, he literally would need someone with phillip dorsett speed or even faster. 

 

he also has said multiple times that he would prefer to give the receiver a chance to make a play on the ball or at the very least draw a PI, rather than overthrow them by 10 yards, it makes sense too because i think we have yet to ever see joe throw the ball as deep as he possibly can, on passes that sail 50+ yards through the air he does it effortlessly, dude barely even has a wind up motion on his deep throws. to really take advantage of joes full strength, you need a wr who runs a 4.35 or faster, i dont believe there is a wr in the league who has the speed to run under joes deepest ball and catch it.

 

I think DJax could easily run under Flacco's throws and catch it.  He's got some serious speed and tracking ability AND he was available last offseason.  He doesn't block well actually he blocks awful and that is needed in this offense, but we could havefound a way to use him last year.  The dude is just a playmaker.

[flynismo]

joe has to dial back his arm on his deep throws, resulting in underthrows. 

 

his arm is so freakishly strong that even a wr with torreys speed would get overthrown every time if joe just let'er rip. 

 

if joe wants to just launch it and have the receiver run under it, he literally would need someone with phillip dorsett speed or even faster. 

 

he also has said multiple times that he would prefer to give the receiver a chance to make a play on the ball or at the very least draw a PI, rather than overthrow them by 10 yards, it makes sense too because i think we have yet to ever see joe throw the ball as deep as he possibly can, on passes that sail 50+ yards through the air he does it effortlessly, dude barely even has a wind up motion on his deep throws. to really take advantage of joes full strength, you need a wr who runs a 4.35 or faster, i dont believe there is a wr in the league who has the speed to run under joes deepest ball and catch it.

That's well and good, but he would not intentionally underthrow Torrey when Torrey already has a step or two on his man...if you have the option, you always put the ball where either your reciever can make a play on the ball or nobody can.

[JoeyFlex5]

That's well and good, but he would not intentionally underthrow Torrey when Torrey already has a step or two on his man...if you have the option, you always put the ball where either your reciever can make a play on the ball or nobody can.

he really does. he has said it himself that he would rather give his guy a chance to catch it rather than overthrow it. he doesnt intentionally underthrow, but he isnt just firing off his cannon on most of his deep throws because if he does it will be overthrown by a mile 9 times outta 10, the only qb's in the league with an arm even close to joes in terms of strength are stafford and cutler, mostly every other qb can just let it rip and have their guy run under it, joe cant, he has to refrain alot more than most qb's on deep throws which leads to a much more difficult time pinpointing where the ball lands, not to mention he knows torrey excels at drawing the PI and he also struggles to locate deep balls, its a calculated risk that he does take from time to time.

[January J]

It's a Shame that desean Jackson has to deal with the poor qb play Over there in Washington. He would really excel over here with joe. Although the same can be said with quite a few guys around the league.

[hawkprey]

I don't know Joe's INT stats by target, but I'm pretty sure his passer rating was the lowest when targeting Torrey. Torrey also had our lowest yac/reception and second-lowest completion/target to Jacoby.

 

Look at ESPN's receiving stats for the league. Every WR around 55% completion had a terrible QB throwing them the ball. Here, look: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingTargets/qualified/false/count/41

[gtalk12]

I can only hope we draft a target for Flacco with hands and the speed to handle his throws....

[gtalk12]

I don't know Joe's INT stats by target, but I'm pretty sure his passer rating was the lowest when targeting Torrey. Torrey also had our lowest yac/reception and second-lowest completion/target to Jacoby.

 

Look at ESPN's receiving stats for the league. Every WR around 55% completion had a terrible QB throwing them the ball. Here, look: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingTargets/qualified/false/count/41

 

 

Put it this way,

 

Flacco threw 2 int's during the Pats game, never guess who he was throwing to both times...

[jazz1988]

Put it this way,

 

Flacco threw 2 int's during the Pats game, never guess who he was throwing to both times...

 

The first interception wasn't Torrey fault at all and it was really a good play by the safety  The second one is debatable but Torrey should have put up more a effort to catch or atleast stop the defender from getting the ball. Flacco threw a inaccurate pass to Torrey and the safety read Flacco eyes right away .

[gtalk12]

The first interception wasn't Torrey fault at all and it was really a good play by the safety  The second one is debatable but Torrey should have put up more a effort to catch or atleast stop the defender from getting the ball. Flacco threw a inaccurate pass to Torrey and the safety read Flacco eyes right away .

 

 

I don't want to make it sound like Flacco is perfect in everything he does, because he isn't.

 

That being said? Both those throws it seemed that Torrey made minimal effort to actually go for a ball that he has to extended and make a play on.

 

I've said it since his 2nd year, it always seems like the ball has to drop in his chest for him to make a play. Not everything throw is going to be perfect and land in your chest in stride, sometimes you have to drop the ball in an area and trust the WR to make the play. Want an example? The toss Flacco made against the Saints to Steve Smith, Steve did everything he could to come down with the ball and HE DID.

 

All of the best or better WR's in the league make plays on the ball, they don't let the ball make a play for them. You think Romo throws it to Dez only when he is CLEARLY open? Hell no, he throws at it him almost at will if he is single covered and he throws it into a space so Dez can make the play or try to at least

[jazz1988]

I don't want to make it sound like Flacco is perfect in everything he does, because he isn't.

 

That being said? Both those throws it seemed that Torrey made minimal effort to actually go for a ball that he has to extended and make a play on.

 

I've said it since his 2nd year, it always seems like the ball has to drop in his chest for him to make a play. Not everything throw is going to be perfect and land in your chest in stride, sometimes you have to drop the ball in an area and trust the WR to make the play. Want an example? The toss Flacco made against the Saints to Steve Smith, Steve did everything he could to come down with the ball and HE DID.

 

All of the best or better WR's in the league make plays on the ball, they don't let the ball make a play for them. You think Romo throws it to Dez only when he is CLEARLY open? Hell no, he throws at it him almost at will if he is single covered and he throws it into a space so Dez can make the play or try to at least

 

I can't agree with you that Torrey made minimal effort to catch the ball on the first interception. The safety Devin Mccourty read Flacco eyes the awhole time and Torrey had a step on cornerback and went for the ball but Devin Mccourty made a play for the ball first. It's really no different from what Ed Reed has done and I think it's kinda wrong to blame Torrey on that play. 

 

That same play could have happen to Dez Bryant or any receiver honestly and it's not like Devin Mccourty isn't one of the best safeties in the league. The second interception was on Torrey but at the same time you can tell the ball was suppose to go one way but it went another way and you know the rest.

 

Dez Bryant is  a totally different receiver than Torrey Smith just as Wes Welker is a totally different receiver from Torrey and the list can go on and on. Not every receiver has the same physical attributes or mindset. I think there was really too much expectations for Torrey when he was here honestly and  he is what he is. Does that mean he's not good or can't get better? No 

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

aiken and brown are hyped too much by our fanbase. they cant replace torrey specifically because they cant offer what torrey did, but the real issue is they likely couldnt replicate a fraction of torreys production. aiken has the potential to be a passable #2 and a solid #3, but the #2 is a longshot and having him as the #1 will be a serious hindrance to the offense. brown has a tall frame, but doesnt know how to win matchups, he cant get open against man coverage, he cant find the soft spots in zone coverage, he cant box out defenders or highpoint contested catches like you would expect a 6'5" receiver to do, his potential has been realized and i hate to break it to ya, his potential isnt very high. coming in under the radar and catching 7 td's as a UDFA is impressive and all, but nobody even knew who brown was and we had no wr's and no effective TE or run game, he was force fed the ball when teams would put all their focus on torrey and marlon brown was left alone in the endzone quite often, now that he actually has to use NFL level tactics to beat NFL level players, he is falling short. a few key 3rd down conversions late in the season is all he really did this year, and those were because plays were designed to get him open as the surprise target and catch the defense off guard, he had a few nice YAC's to get a clutch first down but you can get that from anyone who is 6 inches taller and 30 pounds heavier than most of the db's. wr needs to be addressed in the draft AND free agency, otherwise everyone will finally get to see just how bad marlon brown actually is, no offense to him, but he isnt even close to the answer.

I forget who it was against but the game where brown went out with a concussion - he made 2 highly contested catches at the highest point, both for 1st down while absorbing punishing hits.

He absolutely needs to be more consistent but to say he doesn't have the ability to do these things is using selective memory.

[Willbacker]

I forget who it was against but the game where brown went out with a concussion - he made 2 highly contested catches at the highest point, both for 1st down while absorbing punishing hits.

He absolutely needs to be more consistent but to say he doesn't have the ability to do these things is using selective memory.

Yep I remember that game. He seemed like he was just starting to get hot and become a go to on 3rd down.

[Tru11]

I don't want to make it sound like Flacco is perfect in everything he does, because he isn't.

 

That being said? Both those throws it seemed that Torrey made minimal effort to actually go for a ball that he has to extended and make a play on.

 

I've said it since his 2nd year, it always seems like the ball has to drop in his chest for him to make a play. Not everything throw is going to be perfect and land in your chest in stride, sometimes you have to drop the ball in an area and trust the WR to make the play. Want an example? The toss Flacco made against the Saints to Steve Smith, Steve did everything he could to come down with the ball and HE DID.

 

All of the best or better WR's in the league make plays on the ball, they don't let the ball make a play for them. You think Romo throws it to Dez only when he is CLEARLY open? Hell no, he throws at it him almost at will if he is single covered and he throws it into a space so Dez can make the play or try to at least

 

you do try to sound like joe is perfect cause you are actually blaming torrey for throws in double coverage lol.

 

that first INT was double coverage since it was a call that was already used  earlier in the game and mccourty read it all the way.

 

that 2nd INT was even worse cause flacco admit he saw that safety and still took his shot while underneath marlon was wide open and there was actually no reason to take a shot.

only reason people tend to not blame flacco for those 2 picks is cause he was lights throughout the rest of game carrying the offense at an extremely high level.

 

also its perfectly normal that throws to the top receiver have a higher risk to being intercepted since defenses tend to roll coverage to them.

look no further then tom brady who 3 out 4 int in the play offs came when throwing to Gronk.

 

its one thing to blame torrey when its one on one  , its another thing to blame torrey when its 2 on 1.

especially if we have to believe another poster who said  flacco is intentionally underthrowing his receivers even when they have a step on their defender lol.

[gtalk12]

you do try to sound like joe is perfect cause you are actually blaming torrey for throws in double coverage lol.

 

that first INT was double coverage since it was a call that was already used  earlier in the game and mccourty read it all the way.

 

that 2nd INT was even worse cause flacco admit he saw that safety and still took his shot while underneath marlon was wide open and there was actually no reason to take a shot.

only reason people tend to not blame flacco for those 2 picks is cause he was lights throughout the rest of game carrying the offense at an extremely high level.

 

also its perfectly normal that throws to the top receiver have a higher risk to being intercepted since defenses tend to roll coverage to them.

look no further then tom brady who 3 out 4 int in the play offs came when throwing to Gronk.

 

its one thing to blame torrey when its one on one  , its another thing to blame torrey when its 2 on 1.

especially if we have to believe another poster who said  flacco is intentionally underthrowing his receivers even when they have a step on their defender lol.

 

Should he get only thrown to if he is WIDE open? The reason I'm expecting more from him is because we have ALL seen how he looks when he plays angry.

 

No WR is only going to get the ball when he is single covered, you have to take shots if you want to win. Ask Boldin during our SB run.

 

There's a level a trust you build with a WR to make the play, I know we have all seen Flacco put his arms up telling Smith to go get the ball.

 

Would you disagree with the idea that Torrey would rather the ball play him then Smith make a play on the ball?

[gtalk12]

I can't agree with you that Torrey made minimal effort to catch the ball on the first interception. The safety Devin Mccourty read Flacco eyes the awhole time and Torrey had a step on cornerback and went for the ball but Devin Mccourty made a play for the ball first. It's really no different from what Ed Reed has done and I think it's kinda wrong to blame Torrey on that play. 

 

That same play could have happen to Dez Bryant or any receiver honestly and it's not like Devin Mccourty isn't one of the best safeties in the league. The second interception was on Torrey but at the same time you can tell the ball was suppose to go one way but it went another way and you know the rest.

 

Dez Bryant is  a totally different receiver than Torrey Smith just as Wes Welker is a totally different receiver from Torrey and the list can go on and on. Not every receiver has the same physical attributes or mindset. I think there was really too much expectations for Torrey when he was here honestly and  he is what he is. Does that mean he's not good or can't get better? No 

 

All I ask is for Torrey to make a play on the ball, that's pretty much it lol

 

I rewatched the INT and he didn't do anything except go with Devin out of bounds.

 

I never expected him to be a 15TD machine year in and year out. That's not the case, but I do expect him to play to his potential like he has shown in the past.

 

He does not catch the ball at it's peak, he lets the ball land on his chest.

 

All that was fine when Boldin was around during Smith's first couple of years. Since he has left, it seems dificult to get Torrey going

[Guest I-70WestRaven]

Simple answer, yes! Smith Sr. will mentor them and Torrey, well, we need the money elsewhere. In Ozzie we trust, again, as always!

[Tru11]

Should he get only thrown to if he is WIDE open? The reason I'm expecting more from him is because we have ALL seen how he looks when he plays angry.

 

No WR is only going to get the ball when he is single covered, you have to take shots if you want to win. Ask Boldin during our SB run.

 

There's a level a trust you build with a WR to make the play, I know we have all seen Flacco put his arms up telling Smith to go get the ball.

 

Would you disagree with the idea that Torrey would rather the ball play him then Smith make a play on the ball?

 

 

he should get thrown to when he has a realistic chance of making a play on the ball lol.

 

neither smitty or boldin would have made the catch.

 

its also funny that you mention them cause pretty much every play they made in a similar situation was when it was single coverage.

 

I cant remember either of them jumping with 2 defenders and consistently winning the jump balls.

I do remember them winning 1 on 1 battles a lot.

 

its interesting that you expect torrey to made that catch but you don't expect flacco to make a better decision in that situation.

 

let me break it down.

 

it was a 4 man rush against a 5 wide set.

this means it was 5 receivers going against 7 defenders.

it was 2nd and 5 with 1.46 left and the ravens had 1 TO left.

 

now with it being 5 on 7, only 2 receiver would be double covered which means 3 guys would be in single coverage.

on this particular play it where torrey and daniels in double cover with revis on smitty.

this means aiken and brown where 1 on 1.

besides this it was an inside rush and wagner had his defender on the ground before the pass was thrown and there was no defender in QB spy.

 

now the options for flacco where:

1 move left and use his feet to pick an easy 1st down and even more.

2 look for marlon underneath and let him use his big body to make a play.

3 look for aiken to do the same as marlon.

4 trust smitty to beat revis 1 on 1

5 hope owen daniels can beat 2 defenders

6 hope torrey can beat 2 defenders.

7 throw the ball away and live for another down.

 

now I have a really hard time understanding why most people think that the 6th option was the best option and its the receivers fault he could not beat 2 defenders.

 

even if it was calvin Johnson there I still would question if that was the right decision TBH lol.

[gtalk12]

he should get thrown to when he has a realistic chance of making a play on the ball lol.

 

neither smitty or boldin would have made the catch.

 

its also funny that you mention them cause pretty much every play they made in a similar situation was when it was single coverage.

 

I cant remember either of them jumping with 2 defenders and consistently winning the jump balls.

I do remember them winning 1 on 1 battles a lot.

 

its interesting that you expect torrey to made that catch but you don't expect flacco to make a better decision in that situation.

 

let me break it down.

 

it was a 4 man rush against a 5 wide set.

this means it was 5 receivers going against 7 defenders.

it was 2nd and 5 with 1.46 left and the ravens had 1 TO left.

 

now with it being 5 on 7, only 2 receiver would be double covered which means 3 guys would be in single coverage.

on this particular play it where torrey and daniels in double cover with revis on smitty.

this means aiken and brown where 1 on 1.

besides this it was an inside rush and wagner had his defender on the ground before the pass was thrown and there was no defender in QB spy.

 

now the options for flacco where:

1 move left and use his feet to pick an easy 1st down and even more.

2 look for marlon underneath and let him use his big body to make a play.

3 look for aiken to do the same as marlon.

4 trust smitty to beat revis 1 on 1

5 hope owen daniels can beat 2 defenders

6 hope torrey can beat 2 defenders.

7 throw the ball away and live for another down.

 

now I have a really hard time understanding why most people think that the 6th option was the best option and its the receivers fault he could not beat 2 defenders.

 

even if it was calvin Johnson there I still would question if that was the right decision TBH lol.

 

 

If it was Calvin and he catches it then it's the right play.

 

If it's a catch then it's always right lol.

 

I see your point though.

 

Good show ol chap

[Crabcakes&Football]

Combined, they can offset his production, neither of them brings the same speed element Torrey does. It's imperative that we add another weapon or 2. If we can find a legit #1 then suddenly our receivers look pretty darned good. 

[PurpleCorsair]

Should he get only thrown to if he is WIDE open? The reason I'm expecting more from him is because we have ALL seen how he looks when he plays angry.

 

No WR is only going to get the ball when he is single covered, you have to take shots if you want to win. Ask Boldin during our SB run.

 

There's a level a trust you build with a WR to make the play, I know we have all seen Flacco put his arms up telling Smith to go get the ball.

 

Would you disagree with the idea that Torrey would rather the ball play him then Smith make a play on the ball

There is zero reason to force a ball down field into double coverage when you have someone underneath who is wide open. I don't care if it's Jerry Rice, you throw it to the open guy every time.

[Sami84]

BY the way…something flacco missed BIG time.

 

I was watching the game vs the patriots and you will notice in the play before the owen daniels drop (tough catch) where we had to settle for a field goal.

 

in the play before crockett gilmore is WIDE OPEN right infront of him..its a basic dink pass and he's in for the touchdown..

 

pretty bad from Joe. it would have been a sure fire 100% touchdown. check it out if you have time.

[January J]

I was yelling at the screen when Daniels dropped that pass, I'd like to go back and look at the previous play if Crockett was as open as you say. So many what ifs. I wish we would have given Forsett the ball on the 2 and 5. I also noticed joe could have scrambled for an easy first down. We needed to milk that clock. I like tellin myself that if Torrey caught that ball for a td that Brady would have scored on the next drive anyway, I don't know why but it makes me feel better. On second thought, nothing makes me feel better about that ending. What a classic ending if on that final Hail Mary that got tipped In the air... If it would have went straight into the hands of Torrey and he had to fight to get across the goal line. If you go back and look at his position when then ball was tipped he wasn't that far off. Or if it was jacoby and he did that little Super Bowl spin move to get in the endzone. Mile high miracle pt. 2 How sweet would that have been? Anyway, I apologize for the rant.

[BmoreBird22]

The thing that bothers me with blaming a quarterback for missing wide open throws is the fact that they're working through a progression. Their head may not be turned the way of the open receiver or they may have been looking that way and the receiver wasn't open at the time. The quarterbacks are getting the ball out, usually, in 2.5 seconds or less and wearing a helmet that obstructs peripheral vision. Every quarterback misses throws.

Now, as for the second interception, I put that all on Torrey. There was a video in the vent thread that showed Torrey tracking the ball, look up to see the safety, completely slow down and pull up, and just not ever go back to looking for the ball. At worst, it's an in completion and at best it's a touchdown or DPI in the end zone. That play, though, is why I will not miss Torrey. He was scared of contact and would rarely ever fight for a ball. When you're limited in your route tree like Torrey was, you have to be more willing to fight for passes and he just didn't. It was pitiful

However, I do not believe Brown or Aiken could replace Torrey. For as limited as Torrey was, I don't think Marlon or Aiken has a good enough skill set to replace his production. They do fine as threes, but I'd be very hesitant to see them against top end corners

[Sami84]

Guys watch the play I mentioned.

 

It was a simple pass straight over the line to gilmore who would have caught it and been half a yard away from the end zone with no one near him.

 

It was a huge miss by joe.

[GrimCoconut]

Guys watch the play I mentioned.

It was a simple pass straight over the line to gilmore who would have caught it and been half a yard away from the end zone with no one near him.

It was a huge miss by joe.

So what? It's over and done with and it's in the past. I'm sure he's missed these things in games we've won. It happens. I'm sure it's happened to Manning, Brady, et al.

[rmcjacket23]

Guys watch the play I mentioned.

 

It was a simple pass straight over the line to gilmore who would have caught it and been half a yard away from the end zone with no one near him.

 

It was a huge miss by joe.

I have zero doubt that if I studied game tape of Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or any other QB since the history of time, I could find multiple times in literally every single game where the QB didn't throw a pass to a wide open guy.

 

Its not a Flacco limitation. Its a universal human being physical limitation.

[The Mom Gene]

Guys watch the play I mentioned.

 

It was a simple pass straight over the line to gilmore who would have caught it and been half a yard away from the end zone with no one near him.

 

It was a huge miss by joe.

Players drop balls.... it happens.

[Militant X 1]

BY the way…something flacco missed BIG time.

 

I was watching the game vs the patriots and you will notice in the play before the owen daniels drop (tough catch) where we had to settle for a field goal.

 

in the play before crockett gilmore is WIDE OPEN right infront of him..its a basic dink pass and he's in for the touchdown..

 

pretty bad from Joe. it would have been a sure fire 100% touchdown. check it out if you have time.

 

Sometimes, these QB's don't see the wide open receiver because so much is going on at the time.  At home on our couches and watching the replays...we see everything!

[ALSKAN RAVEN FAN]

I have said it before an will say it again I believe Brown and Aiken can do it we honestly wont know until they are given a legitimate shot. That being said I would not be upset if Oz and Co. bring in another veteran but what I would really like to see is us using the first pick to draft the next young SSS, Andre Johnson, Juilo Jones, Jordy Nelson, Randy Moss or  Jerry Rice or you name the guy. It would be nice to see Oz draft the next big time WR and watch him play his career out as a Raven and see him and Flacco set some serious records both team and league.