Can the Ravens Be 2015 Trend Setters?

[TonyTone1192]

The game of football is constantly evolving. Teams are always looking to build the complete roster or attempting to find ways to create mis matches for the opposing team. We saw that when the Pats installed their two tight end set with Hernandez and Gronk. Multiple teams, including us, attempted to use that blueprint. Case in point taking two right ends with back to back picks in 2010(Dickson, 3rd rd & Pitta, 4th). I have no issue with us using that blueprint in attempt to mirror their success. Now it's time to install the next wave of mismatches. IMO it's a double slot receiver.

Welker came on with the pats and had multiple 100 catch seasons and everyone was looking for that Welker-like receiver. I honestly think that Camp will be a very solid slot receiver barring any major injuries. But when we go in our 4-wide sets to spread defenses out, why not have 2 Welkers rather than 1? That would certainly create mismatches for multiple reasons that I won't get into just yet.

The best route runner in this years class is Tyler Lockett out of KSU. I know that our last couple of picks out of KState have been disappointments(Yamon Figurs & Arthur Brown) but this kid has beaten NFL caliber corners in college.

He's not projected to go in the first, so we can use that pick elsewhere, Max Williams or 3-4 d-line depth(We're probably losing McPhee and who knows what's going on with Ngata).

One thing that the ravens have almost NEVER had is an elite route runner, pair this kid up with Camp on the opposite slot and it's almost pick your poison. Now I don't see us having many big plays with that set, but we would definitely be able to move the chains methodically and control the clock.

Thoughts?

[JoeyFlex5]

you need diversity in your wr's and in trestmans scheme where he predominantly uses 2 WR's that would limit us, we tried using multiple possession wr's with boldin, mason, and housh and it didnt work out great, we had nothing that scared teams. without speed at wr defenses can play a cover 2 and crowd the short/intermediate areas and plug up all the throwing lanes, nobody showed this better than the bengals who ate flacco alive in 2010 forcing 4 int's. 

 

to do something like this you would need a truly elite TE who scares defenses, one who can be a deep threat as well as a matchup nightmare. you just cant really succeed in the NFL today without either a wr who can win deep, or a wr who can win contested catches.

[TonyTone1192]

you need diversity in your wr's and in trestmans scheme where he predominantly uses 2 WR's that would limit us, we tried using multiple possession wr's with boldin, mason, and housh and it didnt work out great, we had nothing that scared teams. without speed at wr defenses can play a cover 2 and crowd the short/intermediate areas and plug up all the throwing lanes, nobody showed this better than the bengals who ate flacco alive in 2010 forcing 4 int's.

to do something like this you would need a truly elite TE who scares defenses, one who can be a deep threat as well as a matchup nightmare. you just cant really succeed in the NFL today without either a wr who can win deep, or a wr who can win contested catches.

That's what I'm saying tho, non of the aforementioned receivers were great route runners. In their primes, housh and Mason were, but we inherited both after their better years. Plus it's something the league hasn't seen before so if you don't have the roster to stop it then it's hard to prepare for it. Plus if we grab this kid then there's the possibility of us getting Max Williams best TE in this years draft.

Plus we de have some diversity. Brown and Steve Smith both strong handed possession receivers, Brown a big bodied red zone target and if we keep Torrey then we have that deep threat.

[Tank 92]

you need diversity in your wr's and in trestmans scheme where he predominantly uses 2 WR's that would limit us, we tried using multiple possession wr's with boldin, mason, and housh and it didnt work out great, we had nothing that scared teams. without speed at wr defenses can play a cover 2 and crowd the short/intermediate areas and plug up all the throwing lanes, nobody showed this better than the bengals who ate flacco alive in 2010 forcing 4 int's. 

 

to do something like this you would need a truly elite TE who scares defenses, one who can be a deep threat as well as a matchup nightmare. you just cant really succeed in the NFL today without either a wr who can win deep, or a wr who can win contested catches.

 

 

This is exactly right.  You have to have the guy(s) to take the top off the defense to open up the field. 

[Tru11]

mason was 1 of the best route runners though even when he was with us.

[TonyTone1192]

mason was 1 of the best route runners though even when he was with us.

Yeah but compared to his days in Tennessee there's no comparison

[TonyTone1192]

This is exactly right. You have to have the guy(s) to take the top off the defense to open up the field.

Well we had guy(s) in Jacoby and Torrey. Idt there's a team with more than one deep threat.

Plus look at the pats post moss years, their number 1 receiver was a 5'9" 185 slot receiver.

[JoeyFlex5]

That's what I'm saying tho, non of the aforementioned receivers were great route runners. In their primes, housh and Mason were, but we inherited both after their better years. Plus it's something the league hasn't seen before so if you don't have the roster to stop it then it's hard to prepare for it. Plus if we grab this kid then there's the possibility of us getting Max Williams best TE in this years draft.

Plus we de have some diversity. Brown and Steve Smith both strong handed possession receivers, Brown a big bodied red zone target and if we keep Torrey then we have that deep threat.

mason was nothing short of one of the greatest route runner in the history of the game, very underrated receiver and he could get open against anybody in his 1v1 matchups and could find the soft spots. the problem is when you have no speed, that doesnt matter because the throwing lanes are plugged up, you cant throw through a defender and it results in interceptions when the intermediate area of the field is crowded with 6-7 defenders playing zone

[usmccharles]

Its a good idea for a different system, i dont think it would work well with trestman like others have said.  Reminds me of when i had the idea of Pierce in the back field and putting Rice in the slot and moving boldin to a slot on the other side.  was a thought. 

[TonyTone1192]

Its a good idea for a different system, i dont think it would work well with trestman like others have said. Reminds me of when i had the idea of Pierce in the back field and putting Rice in the slot and moving boldin to a slot on the other side. was a thought.

I think we installed that a few times during our SB winning year. Nothing more than a handful but that sounds like a crazy mismatch(when pierce was averaging 4.5 yards a pop)

And yeah I see what you're saying Trestman likes to get the ball down the field. But he did say that he's gonna learn our offense and not vice versa

[TonyTone1192]

mason was nothing short of one of the greatest route runner in the history of the game, very underrated receiver and he could get open against anybody in his 1v1 matchups and could find the soft spots. the problem is when you have no speed, that doesnt matter because the throwing lanes are plugged up, you cant throw through a defender and it results in interceptions when the intermediate area of the field is crowded with 6-7 defenders playing zone

Not taking anything away from masons route running abilities but we got him after his better years. And Mason is only one receiver. I think it's time to invest into a receiver who we can depend on to win 1v1. At this point we don't have a single receiver who can do that and the two others in the draft who are capable(White&Cooper) will be top 10 picks

[JoeyFlex5]

Not taking anything away from masons route running abilities but we got him after his better years. And Mason is only one receiver. I think it's time to invest into a receiver who we can depend on to win 1v1. At this point we don't have a single receiver who can do that and the two others in the draft who are capable(White&Cooper) will be top 10 picks

nobody is refuting that statement whatsoever. but they arent the only 2 capable receivers, youre looking for a possession receiver in this thread, jaelen strong is a possession + more. he plays well in traffic, he simply doesnt shy away from contact, he can catch the ball with defenders draped all over him, he boxes out and outleaps defenders better than anyone in this draft, he will win a majority of his 1v1 matchups simply by doing this, and he is an excellent natural hands catcher with great body control, all he lacks is elite top end speed but he is faster than you think, you know the potential for 4.44 speed is there after seeing his combine, and there is no reason to think he cant refine his route running to maximize his game. 

 

if you want a #1 who plays a possession type role, strong is your guy, but he isnt limited to that role. 

[Tru11]

Yeah but compared to his days in Tennessee there's no comparison

 

people might loose a step or 2 but they wont forget how to run a route lol.

 

actually with age some players get even better.

 

mason and steve smith are good examples.

 

mason did have 4 1000 yards in 6 seasons with us with 1 coming at the hands of a rookie flacco and the other 3 came with boller and mcnair lol

 

some will probably still remember his killer double moves which got him open deep at times hahaha

[TonyTone1192]

people might loose a step or 2 but they wont forget how to run a route lol.

actually with age some players get even better.

mason and steve smith are good examples.

mason did have 4 1000 yards in 6 seasons with us with 1 coming at the hands of a rookie flacco and the other 3 came with boller and mcnair lol

some will probably still remember his killer double moves which got him open deep at times hahaha

Not saying that he did, my point is that we're arguing over 1 receiver out of a couple hundred in our 18 year history.

At this point on our team we don't have an every down receiver that we can expect to win in one on one battles. Steve did it for the first 6 games of last year but slowed down quite a bit, possible due to his age.

What I'm saying is if we had one receiver who we could throw all around the field and who could win in 1v1 for 16 + games that would make our offense deadly.

[stampedehero]

mason was 1 of the best route runners though even when he was with us.

I'll add Todd Heap......

[jimjim5]

The game of football is constantly evolving. Teams are always looking to build the complete roster or attempting to find ways to create mis matches for the opposing team. We saw that when the Pats installed their two tight end set with Hernandez and Gronk. Multiple teams, including us, attempted to use that blueprint. Case in point taking two right ends with back to back picks in 2010(Dickson, 3rd rd & Pitta, 4th). I have no issue with us using that blueprint in attempt to mirror their success. Now it's time to install the next wave of mismatches. IMO it's a double slot receiver.

Welker came on with the pats and had multiple 100 catch seasons and everyone was looking for that Welker-like receiver. I honestly think that Camp will be a very solid slot receiver barring any major injuries. But when we go in our 4-wide sets to spread defenses out, why not have 2 Welkers rather than 1? That would certainly create mismatches for multiple reasons that I won't get into just yet. ...............

Thoughts?

 

Sorry, we wouldn't be trendsetters in this regard. I think the Pats can claim credit for this "new" trend you speak of.

 

Remember Welker, Edelman, and Woodhead?

[52520Andrew]

I don't know if we want to use 4 WR sets too often though as it would kinda be a giveaway that it would be a pass. Part of what makes 2 TE sets so effective is that 2 TEs is traditionally a run heavy formation but the TEs can burn you through the air as well. Gronk may be a huge receiving threat but he is an awesome run blocker as well so you have to take that into account. For a 4 WR set, most teams would just play Dime to counter it and not worry too much about the run. Granted there are tons of ways to do it as well, you could have 2 WRs per side, you could even have Trips left or right and make things really interesting and rub/pick routes can come into play then but teams already do those things.

[TonyTone1192]

Sorry, we wouldn't be trendsetters in this regard. I think the Pats can claim credit for this "new" trend you speak of.

Remember Welker, Edelman, and Woodhead?

I agree with you, but Edelman wasn't a producer when Welker was there.

And what bout camp and Lockett? With smith squared on the outside.

I'm telling you Lockett is a chain mover

[TonyTone1192]

I don't know if we want to use 4 WR sets too often though as it would kinda be a giveaway that it would be a pass. Part of what makes 2 TE sets so effective is that 2 TEs is traditionally a run heavy formation but the TEs can burn you through the air as well. Gronk may be a huge receiving threat but he is an awesome run blocker as well so you have to take that into account. For a 4 WR set, most teams would just play Dime to counter it and not worry too much about the run. Granted there are tons of ways to do it as well, you could have 2 WRs per side, you could even have Trips left or right and make things really interesting and rub/pick routes can come into play then but teams already do those things.

So in a 4wide set you're not focused on the run right!?

[52520Andrew]

So in a 4wide set you're not focused on the run right!?

Only have the linemen and RB, I mean you can run a draw play but it is just the linemen and the RB so teams are going to play the pass more since you have fewer blockers in the play.

[Tru11]

Not saying that he did, my point is that we're arguing over 1 receiver out of a couple hundred in our 18 year history.

At this point on our team we don't have an every down receiver that we can expect to win in one on one battles. Steve did it for the first 6 games of last year but slowed down quite a bit, possible due to his age.

What I'm saying is if we had one receiver who we could throw all around the field and who could win in 1v1 for 16 + games that would make our offense deadly.

 

its not that simple.

 

you don't think defenses will adjust to that receiver?

 

also what is an every down receiver?

as far as I know we had our fair share of good wrs lol

its probably our lack of a decend QB through the years that made the receivers look bad.

[TonyTone1192]

Only have the linemen and RB, I mean you can run a draw play but it is just the linemen and the RB so teams are going to play the pass more since you have fewer blockers in the play.

I'm not saying that we'll go 4 wide every down, but it stretches defenses out.

[TonyTone1192]

Sorry, we wouldn't be trendsetters in this regard. I think the Pats can claim credit for this "new" trend you speak of.

Remember Welker, Edelman, and Woodhead?

Yeah but Edelman played more of a second fiddle to welker.

[TonyTone1192]

its not that simple.

you don't think defenses will adjust to that receiver?

also what is an every down receiver?

as far as I know we had our fair share of good wrs lol

its probably our lack of a decend QB through the years that made the receivers look bad.

Decent QB? Look at what Joe's got to work with. A 35 year old(he still has game, but Father Time is undefeated) A receiver in Torrey who's route running is very limited, damn near a one trick pony. A 7th rounder in camp. And two Undrafted players in Aiken and Brown. A 32 year old in Daniels(see Steve smith's comments) and a 4th rounder in Crockett who is primarily a blocker.

Joe's best group of receivers was in 2012 when he had; Boldin, Torrey, Pitta, Dickson and Rice and we happen to have won the SB that year lol

[Tru11]

Decent QB? Look at what Joe's got to work with. A 35 year old(he still has game, but Father Time is undefeated) A receiver in Torrey who's route running is very limited, damn near a one trick pony. A 7th rounder in camp. And two Undrafted players in Aiken and Brown. A 32 year old in Daniels(see Steve smith's comments) and a 4th rounder in Crockett who is primarily a blocker.

Joe's best group of receivers was in 2012 when he had; Boldin, Torrey, Pitta, Dickson and Rice and we happen to have won the SB that year lol

 

im 1000% sure joe is not the only QB the ravens had in their existence....

 

you arguing we never had good receivers/route runners.

 

mason and heap where pretty good but had to play with avg QBs like boller and such.

 

Also Joe wasent the only reason we won the SB so stop using that argument.

The Defense and special teams all had their moments as well.

It was an team effort.

 

Their is 0 guaranteed that if we sacrifice the defense and special teams to give Joe weapons , he will be able to throw us to a SB.

 

You need more then an offense alone to win a SB.

[Pirate88]

Do u really wanna know of an innovative offense the ravens can run that would shatter points records and we could realistically afford to acquire the players needed to run it and other teams can have their $16mil/Yr WRs?? We don't want or need Calvin Julio Dez AJ Or Demariyus or any elite big name high priced WR. As a matter of fact they would be so obsolete the ravens if we had one even on a rookie contract the front office could trade them for far lower priced player or cut them unless they needed them to trade for the not so big name player or couple players needed to run the new offense.

[jimjim5]

Yeah but Edelman played more of a second fiddle to welker.

 

They still lined up together in certain sets.

[Pirate88]

Now its Nerdelman and Amendorka in the have no WR skills sets. Most of their catches are really long handoffs. Campanaro has more raw talent than either. Campanaro has more speed and athleticism to make those tough acrobatic catches Nerdelman can only dream of.

[Pirate88]

The ravens could very well be trend setters on offense. To set trends that dominate the right personnel is always the trick. This offense is a mix of offenses sometimes an offensive trend is used or labeled to loose. BTW the 2 Wes welkers is not a bad idea except they would need to be able to win in more ways than Welker or any traditional but limited skill slot receivers. Most of the slots catch a lot of long handoffs and are more like RBs taking a long handoff aka short pass.

Before discussing this prolific offense that would blitzkrieg NFL defenses and potentially break records let's get one topic out of the way. This stance Biscotti is taking toward players with off field drama is rediculous!! All over Ray Rice did something that other NFL players did and at times was cleaned up before the news channels or NFL network could comment. Ray Rice just happened to get caught on camera on an elevator. I could see cutting Rice cuz of the tape everybody saw. But to take a stance to not draft or sign troubled players with previous drama just cuz what other teams media and fans could say bout your team?? Seriously??!! If those other teams had coaching and vet leadership as we'll team structure as well as a motivated atmosphere inspired by winning and overall environment to keep these young players straight focused and motivated to work hard and play hard and be successful don't you think they would do it to win?? They wouldn't hesitate!! The patsies don't care they got caught taping walkthroughs and gladly take wins. As long as a player isn't a repeat offender of something with your particular team what is the problem?? Why hold a grudge against a player while watering down your overall talent on your team. Its guaranteed if the next team thinks they can fix a players behavior and get a pro bowler for a bargain they will sign him then beat your team and laugh at you for your moral stance against players with drama after beating you in the game. These teams and their media and fans will sling comments bout your players with previous dramadrama yet the hypocrites would take the players themselves. Besides these penalties are to harsh on these young players with some Even having the behavior drama in college at 19 or younger!! And does the fearless commissioner really think taking somebody's job from them or suspending them for a year is seriously going to help them stay out of trouble or off drugs or drinking and driving??!! Is it going to keep them in the gym and out of trouble?? Not to mention some of these suspensions are for something that's not that big like maryjuana which BTW isn't it not really physically Dependant?? And isn't it now legal in most states anyways. There are far worse drugs I could see the NFL having a problem with. And many character and behavior events are trumped up like speeding tickets or a nightclub fight. It doesn't mean he started the trouble but it gets reported like the player is a troublemaker. Besides these are young tough guys and many positions intensity is a desired trait. They are football players not choir boys!! Not saying criminal acts shouldn't be addressed but to much of their behavior issues are overblown. And when it more minor behavior drama these guys need to be given a shot and time to be coached up. Remember, some of these guys never had upbringing or any kinna structure or parenting til they hit college. Give them some time to learn how to conduct themselves and be professionals. In the meantime, taking football from them for a year and these suspensions from their jobs are not going to keep them straight and focused and concentrated on productive things like Work. And as for the ravens, steering away from a talented player who could reward them whom they believe they can help the dude stay focused and work hard and put their talent to use is not going to make the team better. Nor is it going to get them any extra respect for the franchise for not drafting or signing players with a previous behavior issue. When the team has 6-10 seasons is anybody going to say at least they don't sign or draft players with behavior drama??!! Or will it be a viable excuse for losing. Ravens need to just at least do their homework on players like DGB, Marcus Peters,Daryl Washington, Justin Blackmon Colt Lyerla and Josh Gordon. Josh is suspended for a season for a Lil drinking. Seriously??!! It's legal, why should it be part of his testing unless he had an alcohol related crime?? If he stays clear of Maryjane y can't he have a drink like his teammates?? It could be beneficial to him to be part what he can't have for his drug testing and agreement with Mr Goodell but not something that gets his job taken. However just details but when he finally is allowed to play the ravens should at least consider him if they know they can help keep him focused on football and winning which they are a winning team.

Colt Lyerla's pure talent and athletic ability and power is legendary at Oregon among his teammates and coaches. Colt is a smart dude. His professors and teammates can vouch for that. He had no upbringing and structure growing up. The structure and father or big brother figures he had like Kyle Long was the first guidance he has ever had and he is still learning and justifiably so. He is training hard with Kyle and Chris Long again this offseason for first time since college. Kyle Chris and Howie will help him work hard on football while avoid trouble. Their family is the only consistent mentors he has had so far. There is a great chance he is in great shape and ready to work hard on football next year and stay clear of drama. Which means some team will get an undrafted steal in Colt. The legendary stories of his talent of course begin with his TE skills. When he last was being mentored and trained by Kyle Long he was all muscle jacked at 6'4 260LB TE with WR Speed in the 4.45-4.55 range. Of course everybody knows he could blow right by cornerbacks like a WR while dragging LBs. Most peeps don't know his teammate Josh Huff confirmed Colt could line up at LB or safety in practice and cover him in his routes or cover him deep as well as most cornerbacks could. That's saying something for a rocked up 6'4 260lb TE!! He could also line up at RB or FB and could run with speed and elusiveness of a scatback or run over LBs. Lined up at TE he could run sharp sudden routes or make acrobatic catches. When lined at TE he could block an edge rusher like a left tackle could. If that's not freakish enough , when lined up in the backfield he could even block a DT man up like a guard or center. Josh Huff said Colt could play safety in the NFL or Center position and start. That is some freakish talent. As matter of fact Josh Huff said not only would Colt Lyera be the best TE in the NFL once he gets his drama sorted out but he will be one of the best players overall in the NFL. And whomever takes time time to coach and mentor him will get rewarded. Several of his teammates said he was the most gifted player he ever they ever played with or against.

In this ideal offense Colt Lyera would play FB. A FB with the blocking skill of Vontae leach with the sheer speed and explosion to run intermediate or even deep routes out of the backfield like a WR. That's a running receiving or smashing blocking weapon never seen from the FB position b4. It would be like Vontae Leach being 6'4 with WR speed and receiving skills as well as skiil to carry like a Jeremy Hill. At TE a similar type player is ideal. The best TE for this offense would be our #1 TE we want OZ Decosta and Harbs to sign or trade a mid round pick for to be our starting TE. Vernon Davis is the best TE in the nfl!! Regardless what they say about Gronk, Vernon Davis is faster, a Lil stronger and a better tougher blocker than Gronk. While Gronk is taller at 6'6 265 Vernon Davis is 6'3 3/4 and 255-258 and stronger. If Vernon Davis had the right QB and offense he would be as productive as Gronk. While Stronger than Gronk he has left 4.4 WR speed the thing that everybody forgets is he is a tough and powerful blocker!! He takes on edge rushers quite well. There are other TEs that would work fine in the offense like Rob Housler who has WR speed and route sharpness while really sharpening his blocking skills. However with his sheer power and legit 4.4 WR speed and experience he is the best most freakish mismatch!! He can win intermediate or deep or take short throws the distance. Between Vernon Davis and Colt Lyerla you have a big explosive FB and TE who both have WR speed route sharpness and run after catch elusiveness and speed of a WR with tackle breaking power of big body TEs. They are both 6'4 with that speed and skill to make acrobatic contested catches like big WRs. They have size and speed of any Big WRs with bruising blocking power. Being a TE and FB with speed and receiving skills of big WRs like a young Andre Johnson or Vincent Jackson. They are both serious mismatches as a FB and TE. Not to mention their elite blocking keeps the defense guessing if the offense will run or throw as well as who is blocking or receiving. How much protection and or how many targets will the QB have. Or if they run the ball they have these xtra blockers to spring the RB or even the QB cuz Joe can run 20 yards quite fast. At RB again diversity. A RB than run or catch with advanced receiver skills like Abdullah or Duke Johnson or maybe even Gurley if I'm not mistaken is a good receiver. And of course let's not forget the ravens dominant OLine that would set this high octane offense apart from others like the packers or patsies especially that have weaker guards and center. Yanda and Osemele are the most dominant guards in the NFL. And I think Urshel who is a power player will eventually win the center position. Aside from the best OLine in the NFL the matchup nightmare FB and TE can block like extra OLineman when needed and aside from a dynamic offense its very physical and can punch a dominant bully defense back in their mouth thanx to a dominant OLine and the freakish receiving skilled FB TE can lay destructive blocks. The QB already has some serious firepower throwing to the TE FB andRB on throwing downs and this is before you even add in the actual WRs!! Ravens could go different directions. They could sign one of Marshall Crabtree or Britt and even draft one of Agholor,Perriman,Dorsett,Lockett,McBride, or Devin Smith to pair with SS Campanaro and Marshall or Crabtree(side note, I would bet Crabtree ends up getting less than Torrey in FA while Marshall will be comparable). Of course Marshall would be the best WR to add if they could afford him but when considering the other weapons Crabtree and Agholor to fill our the WRs should make for a pretty good unit along with Campanaro and SS. What really would make this west coast system work is the big power blocking FB and TE with WR speed and receiving skills.

[TonyTone1192]

im 1000% sure joe is not the only QB the ravens had in their existence....

you arguing we never had good receivers/route runners.

mason and heap where pretty good but had to play with avg QBs like boller and such.

Also Joe wasent the only reason we won the SB so stop using that argument.

The Defense and special teams all had their moments as well.

It was an team effort.

Their is 0 guaranteed that if we sacrifice the defense and special teams to give Joe weapons , he will be able to throw us to a SB.

You need more then an offense alone to win a SB.

I agree with you, it's a team game and one player doesn't win you a Super Bowl. That wasn't my argument.

What I was getting at is Joe is a DECENT QB, I mean how many records does he have to set before y'all realize that? He tied Montana for most TD's without an int in a post season for Christs' sake. Lol

Yes, I know we've never had top tier receiving threats but our best seasons (receiving options wise) were in '10-'12 when we had the aforementioned.

You know how hard it is to find a franchise QB? Look no further than teams in our division, Cle and Cin.

We have a WINNER in Joe, what more do you want?