Cap Situation-Struggles and Updates

[PurpleCity5]

We gave deals to guys who were proven. I don't know why we didn't prioritize Graham. He was the 8th best CB this year according to PFF. I'm hurt. 

[The Raven]

We gave deals to guys who were proven. I don't know why we didn't prioritize Graham. He was the 8th best CB this year according to PFF. I'm hurt. 

 

Because Webb gets big money, and Jimmy is getting big money soon. They were both healthy at the time. You can't pay big money for a nickel corner when you have so much committed to the two starters, and when you have Asa Jackson, who looked like he could have been as good as Graham if he stayed healthy/

[JoeyFlex5]

Well, for one if I am being honest we made some bad deals; or rather, some deals that didn't pay the dividends we expected. The deal with Foxworth is one of them, which hindered the team quite substantially for a couple of years with dead money that made him unmovable here. Then you had guys like Jacoby Jones, who was re-signed and never became a great WR and never showed any more development but continues to be a good return specialist, albeit an overpaid one for this particular team. Then you had guys like Haloti Ngata just not perform up to standard for a couple years, whether it was due to injuries or what. And of course let's not forget the deal for Webb, in which he has been injured for essentially all of it and has never really played up to his contract. 

 

Just a lot of substantially bad deals, if I am being honest. Ngata's deal wasn't terrible, but the others were considerably bad. Jones isn't awful but it certainly isn't great. 

yes we generally do very good at finding cheap talent but when you use that philosophy youre eventually gonna make a few bad FA signings. that foxworth signing was a desperate move and the jj signing was kinda like "what if he keeps playing this good and we only signed him for 2mil?" so i feel like we took a longshot gamble there. but next offseason looks to be the exciting one so long as we dont overpay torrey, we will be recovered from most of our cap mistakes(aside from webb) and should have the core group under solid contracts with enough space to go out and get someone.

[PurpleCity5]

Because Webb gets big money, and Jimmy is getting big money soon. They were both healthy at the time. You can't pay big money for a nickel corner when you have so much committed to the two starters, and when you have Asa Jackson, who looked like he could have been as good as Graham if he stayed healthy/

Corey Graham didn't really get big money from Buffalo either. It wouldn't have hurt much and despite Webb looking better, he's getting paid a pretty sizable amount right now for a #2 CB, Graham would've been able to fill that spot but I don't know Webbs cap hit if we were to release him post-June 1st. 

[Purple_City39]

Corey Graham didn't really get big money from Buffalo either. It wouldn't have hurt much and despite Webb looking better, he's getting paid a pretty sizable amount right now for a #2 CB, Graham would've been able to fill that spot but I don't know Webbs cap hit if we were to release him post-June 1st. 

The problem is that the coaches and front office had too much faith in Chykie and Asa.  When you think you have 2 CBs waiting in the wing who can play well for peanuts, you let a player ahead of them go if you think he'll only play a little better.  Especially when you're talking about the #3 CB position.

 

Unfortunately Asa and Chykie, especially, underperformed, Jimmy got hurt, and Webb never got healthy (or so they claim).  The fact that the Ravens went into week 1 with four active CBs shows how much faith they had in these players, especially since one of them (Webb) didn't even suit up week 1.  

[Tank 92]

So if RR signs elsewhere, does it soften his cap blow?

[rmw10]

So if RR signs elsewhere, does it soften his cap blow?

 

Nope.  Ray Rice is on our cap as dead money no matter what.  Nothing will change that at this point.

[Tank 92]

Nope.  Ray Rice is on our cap as dead money no matter what.  Nothing will change that at this point.

 

 

damn.  Is the hit just for one year?

[rmw10]

damn.  Is the hit just for one year?

 

Yes.  After this year is over, he'll be wiped from our cap for good.  He's sitting on our cap at $9.5M this year, which is just awful...

[Tank 92]

Yes.  After this year is over, he'll be wiped from our cap for good.  He's sitting on our cap at $9.5M this year, which is just awful...

 

 

It is terrible. But I guess it's something all teams face now and again.

 

We'll need that 9.5 in 2016.

[balfan23]

Doesn't it seem about time that we should be hearing something related to us being in talks with Ngata about a contract extension? It was almost this day last year that we completed Suggs extension. For Ngata, we haven't even heard if we've reached out and initiated any sort of dialogue with his agent. 

[balfan23]

It is terrible. But I guess it's something all teams face now and again.

 

We'll need that 9.5 in 2016.

My concern is that we seem to face this again and again, rather than now and again.

 

Next year's prime candidates for big dead money issues are Webb and Pitta. Each would have $6M in dead money, if released after 2015 season. We need those guys back and playing well, or we'll once again be seeing large chunks of our cap taken by guys who are not on our roster. 

[rmw10]

Doesn't it seem about time that we should be hearing something related to us being in talks with Ngata about a contract extension? It was almost this day last year that we completed Suggs extension. For Ngata, we haven't even heard if we've reached out and initiated any sort of dialogue with his agent. 

 

Because of the Pro Bowl and someone going on vacation or something, I believe that management meeting down in Florida just happened last week, if I remember correctly.

[HoldingCall]

Doesn't it seem about time that we should be hearing something related to us being in talks with Ngata about a contract extension? It was almost this day last year that we completed Suggs extension. For Ngata, we haven't even heard if we've reached out and initiated any sort of dialogue with his agent. 

 

If nothing happens, teams with ample cap space will be ready and waiting to grab the spoils.

[Moderator 3]

Doesn't it seem about time that we should be hearing something related to us being in talks with Ngata about a contract extension? It was almost this day last year that we completed Suggs extension. For Ngata, we haven't even heard if we've reached out and initiated any sort of dialogue with his agent.

The Ravens never talk about ongoing negotiations. If any word leaks out, it'll be from Ngata's agent.

[Wildabeast88]

Corey Graham didn't really get big money from Buffalo either. It wouldn't have hurt much and despite Webb looking better, he's getting paid a pretty sizable amount right now for a #2 CB, Graham would've been able to fill that spot but I don't know Webbs cap hit if we were to release him post-June 1st.

Per overthecap.com Webb as a post June1 cut would be 4 mil in dead money and 8 mil cap savings. However is there oing to be any corners that are up to Webb's level after June 1.

[PurpleCity5]

Per overthecap.com Webb as a post June1 cut would be 4 mil in dead money and 8 mil cap savings. However is there oing to be any corners that are up to Webb's level after June 1.

Yeah unless we make use of a trade which is doubtful or maybe cut Webb June 1st after signing Maxwell or someone like that. 

[52520Andrew]

Doesn't it seem about time that we should be hearing something related to us being in talks with Ngata about a contract extension? It was almost this day last year that we completed Suggs extension. For Ngata, we haven't even heard if we've reached out and initiated any sort of dialogue with his agent.

We'll probably hear something on it during the combine, that is when most of these things get going.

[rmcjacket23]

So if RR signs elsewhere, does it soften his cap blow?

Not one bit.

[Militant X 1]

Yes.  After this year is over, he'll be wiped from our cap for good.  He's sitting on our cap at $9.5M this year, which is just awful...

 

My goodness!  That's just terrible!

[Tank 92]

My concern is that we seem to face this again and again, rather than now and again.

 

Next year's prime candidates for big dead money issues are Webb and Pitta. Each would have $6M in dead money, if released after 2015 season. We need those guys back and playing well, or we'll once again be seeing large chunks of our cap taken by guys who are not on our roster. 

 

 

Even though I've been beating on Webb, I hold out hope he is going to redeem himself. Dennis on the other hand is more of a concern.  It will be a mighty feat of medical technology if he can return and perform.

[Tank 92]

My goodness!  That's just terrible!

 

Turrible!!!  lol  Kinda makes it harder to forgive Little Ray.

[balfan23]

Even though I've been beating on Webb, I hold out hope he is going to redeem himself. Dennis on the other hand is more of a concern.  It will be a mighty feat of medical technology if he can return and perform.

I'm with you on both counts. Not nearly as ready to pull the plug on Webb as many here are and, no matter what you think of Pitta's heart, that injury - happening 2 times over - prognosis doesn't seem good. 

[FlocksGottaFeed]

How so?  What part of the CBA was missed?  What numbers are wrong?

 

The projection is based on the NFL's present projection (an $8.8M increase over last year) - which is the only one out there at this time.  Could it go up more, sure, the article acknowledges that the NFL's projection last year was too low.  But, even if it goes up by $10M, they still are in a worse position then they've been in in years. 

 

So, how is that wrong?

My Bold Prediction: The Ravens FO will produce another potential playoff/Super Bowl caliber winning team in 2015. Okay, that's not so bold. They do that a lot.

 

The 'low' projection isn't wrong (from last year). It just shouldn't be used as the gospel as some are trying to use it. Every other league insider leans towards the cap being set "substantially higher" based on NFLPA and some very powerful owners who are in worst positions than us to keep key players and/or build-on (i.e. Cheatriots, Cowboys and Steelers).

 

With a low ball report of $9 Billion earned by the league this year alone (earning expectations were well under those numbers before the 8-10 million increase was set) and the fact that both owners and players have previously agreed that the cap should represent growth/league earnings - none of us know how high it will go up considering to record league earnings. We simply don't know - until the new cap has been officially set . So, those projections based on what we do know now (record profits, players and owners past agreements and needs) are most likely way too low.

 

edit - typos

[B-more Ravor]

My Bold Prediction:

The 'low' projection isn't wrong (from last year). It just shouldn't be used as the gospel as some are trying to use it. Every other league insider leans towards the cap being set "substantially higher" based on NFLPA and some very powerful owners who are in worst positions than us to keep key players and/or build-on (i.e. Cheatriots, Cowboys and Steelers).

 

 

 

 

Not sure who is using the NFL's current projection as "the gospel", but it is the only projection presently out there.  The article clearly acknowledges that is could very well be higher.

 

As an aside, though, the NFL/NFLPA agreement in the past borrowed from future Caps to raise the Cap when it was stagnant in 2012-13.  There was no agreement because powerful owners wanted the Cap higher.  It was only because the NFLPA wanted the Cap higher and the owners agreed, but only when the NFLPA agreed that the money was to be borrowed from future years.  Last year, with the $10M increase was really the first real Cap as set by the 2011 CBA calculation.

[B-more Ravor]

The Ravens never talk about ongoing negotiations. If any word leaks out, it'll be from Ngata's agent.

 

 

This!  I believe The Sun reported that they were supposed to meet and discuss a new deal last week.  No news since is probably good news, since neither is finding it necessary to negotiation via the media.

[FlocksGottaFeed]

Not sure who is using the NFL's current projection as "the gospel", but it is the only projection presently out there.  The article clearly acknowledges that is could very well be higher.

 

As an aside, though, the NFL/NFLPA agreement in the past borrowed from future Caps to raise the Cap when it was stagnant in 2012-13.  There was no agreement because powerful owners wanted the Cap higher.  It was only because the NFLPA wanted the Cap higher and the owners agreed, but only when the NFLPA agreed that the money was to be borrowed from future years.  Last year, with the $10M increase was really the first real Cap as set by the 2011 CBA calculation.

Agreed. Tell me something that I haven't already posted threads ago. Owner's statement "...deal done by the players and owners three summers ago is working as it was intended to at the time." This was in direct reference to the cap agreement press releases that justified the cap increase due to the agreement that the cap should"...reflect and stay current with NFL growth". That would be closer to $20 per team.

 

As far as the 'powerful owners' statement that you seem to refute. Who do you think runs the league...Goodell and the NFLPA? Really? All decisions are owner driven. With $9 Billion in annual profits, it's possible that they are perfectly willing to free-up less than .02% of that to ensure they keep the players that they want on their teams. That's not a far reaching statement.

 

This is not directed at you, but since it was asked. Who's using the old low projected cap as 'Gospel'? Any fan, reporter and/or blogger that entitles their subject "We Can't Sign...So and So Because...It's Impossible!" Relax until the 'real' numbers come-in. Just saying.

[B-more Ravor]

 

 

As far as the 'powerful owners' statement that you seem to refute. Who do you think runs the league...Goodell and the NFLPA? Really? All decisions are owner driven. With $9 Billion in annual profits, it's possible that they are perfectly willing to free-up less than .02% of that to ensure they keep the players that they want on their teams. That's not a far reaching statement.

 

 

 

 

The Cap is a mathematical calculation as laid out in the CBA.  I don't disagree that the owners are in control, but there are definitely different levels of owners and a large faction that are against allowing the "rich"est owners to control anything/everything, much less manipulate the Cap.  As such, those owners - with smaller pockets - aren't going to agree to a Cap increase that isn't called for by the CBA.  So, we're going to have to disagree on that part.

 

We'll see where the Cap ends up.  The present projection by the NFL is still an $8.8M increase over last year.  The prior year's increase was $10M.  I certainly think the $10M is pretty reachable, how much farther it goes beyond that remains to be seen.

[FlocksGottaFeed]

The Cap is a mathematical calculation as laid out in the CBA.  I don't disagree that the owners are in control, but there are definitely different levels of owners and a large faction that are against allowing the "rich"est owners to control anything/everything, much less manipulate the Cap.  As such, those owners - with smaller pockets - aren't going to agree to a Cap increase that isn't called for by the CBA.  So, we're going to have to disagree on that part.

 

We'll see where the Cap ends up.  The present projection by the NFL is still an $8.8M increase over last year.  The prior year's increase was $10M.  I certainly think the $10M is pretty reachable, how much farther it goes beyond that remains to be seen.

Simply based on statements regarding the earlier projected cap increases of '$8.8M to $10M' which got the follow-up responses from the NFLPA and some owners that it will be "...substantially much higher" - it is reasonable to assume that the actual increase will be between the $15M to $20M range.

 

As you've stated: They already know the math. The money made last season alone ($9 Billion+) was never even close to their per-cap earning projections. It blew lower earning projections out of water and the previous 2 years did, as well. The CBA's agreed upon calculations would have to change to produce a lower number that would settle on just an $8.8-$10M cap increase. I just don't think that will happen in this current financial environment (especially with the needs of some owners to raise the cap substantially higher per current agreement). That said, I don't know where it will eventually end-up, so I just prefer to wait and see 'real' numbers instead of deciding teams and players fates with speculative information only.

[B-more Ravor]

Simply based on statements regarding the earlier projected cap increases of '$8.8M to $10M' which got the follow-up responses from the NFLPA and some owners that it will be "...substantially much higher" - it is reasonable to assume that the actual increase will be between the $15M to $20M range.

 

As you've stated: They already know the math. The money made last season alone ($9 Billion+) was never even close to their per-cap earning projections. It blew lower earning projections out of water and the previous 2 years did, as well. The CBA's agreed upon calculations would have to change to produce a lower number that would settle on just an $8.8-$10M cap increase. I just don't think that will happen in this current financial environment (especially with the needs of some owners to raise the cap substantially higher per current agreement). That said, I don't know where it will eventually end-up, so I just prefer to wait and see 'real' numbers instead of deciding teams and players fates with speculative information only.

 

OK, well, I've seen nothing at all to indicate that the increase could be that large, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.