Rebuilding the secondary Who do you want to see stay and Who do you want to see leave?

[757RavensFan]

Nope. I'm not buying that idea of it being mental, although I applaud you for trying. Not being sarcastic either. Our technique is horrible. After three seasons starting in 2012 when we won it all, our tackling has slowly gotten worse. That's coaching.

 

Raashan Melvin gives me reason why it's the player's mentality and not the coaching.  Melvin didn't miss too many tackles, yes he allowed quite a few receptions, but he could tackle.  Hill is a pretty good tackler as well.  Now the other CB's for some reason, (even Webb) looked lost out there at times trying to tackle.

[dirtybird10]

I don't know if anything about our Secondary needs to be rebuilt, it just needs to get healthy. A healthy Jimmy Smith totally transforms our secondary from awful passive coverage, to a tougher, unit that can play up in receivers face. That was what was so amiss on Saturday, and the Colts proved that one last night. Playing up in the receivers grill and getting to the ball as soon as it is caught, while making the tackle is how you stop the screen and short passing game. We just couldn't, or wouldn't do it with our guys this year.

 

I think the only real question marks in our secondary is starting safeties ( a big one, but we have guys there) and the injury bug that tends to plague our DB's.When healthy I think we have a pretty good unit, but both Jimmy and Webb have had injury issues, which is a cause for concern.

[GrimCoconut]

Is it an NFL coach's job to teach tackling, though? If you can't tackle by the time you get to the NFL, I don't think you can be fixed. To me, tackling issues in the NFL are about ability, not coaching.

If we were to fire someone, who? Tackling drills are done in position groups, not as an entire defense. The linebackers and defensive linemen don't really seem to have tackling issues, and I doubt Spags would be a bad position coach. So who is it?

Moreover, Pees emphasizes every camp how much time goes into the fundamentals. So, I'd bet they do tackling drills. And tackling isn't exactly rocket science. Wrap up, drive, and get him down. I really think the tackling issues are personnel based.

I really have no solution, which is why I said I'm not sure who. And while you're correct that it's certainly personnel who fail to execute a tackle, you know as well as I do that the methods of teaching vary.

Since it's a widespread issue that hasn't been corrected, we either need to do two things: you either fire a coach or relinquish some duties and give them to others. I'm really not biased to either solution but something needs to be done.

I'm thinking it's the method of teaching that is the issue. I just don't think the players are grasping whoever teaches tackling. The tackling issues seem to be most prevalent in the secondary, not so much the DL or linebackers.

[GrimCoconut]

Raashan Melvin gives me reason why it's the player's mentality and not the coaching. Melvin didn't miss too many tackles, yes he allowed quite a few receptions, but he could tackle. Hill is a pretty good tackler as well. Now the other CB's for some reason, (even Webb) looked lost out there at times trying to tackle.

Perhaps it's a combination. I can concede that. Just because I think someone should be fired over our poor tackling doesn't mean I think we have bad coaches. I think the coaches are great. I just think the players aren't connecting and sometimes it's just easier to find a coach who can get the players to buy in.

[The Raven]

I really have no solution, which is why I said I'm not sure who. And while you're correct that it's certainly personnel who fail to execute a tackle, you know as well as I do that the methods of teaching vary.

Since it's a widespread issue that hasn't been corrected, we either need to do two things: you either fire a coach or relinquish some duties and give them to others. I'm really not biased to either solution but something needs to be done.

I'm thinking it's the method of teaching that is the issue. I just don't think the players are grasping whoever teaches tackling. The tackling issues seem to be most prevalent in the secondary, not so much the DL or linebackers.

 

Then it seems the problem would be Spags or Pees. Spags might be gone soon anyway. He could also become our DC. I don't know what'll happen.

 

But here's what I see: The defensive backs are scared to tackle. Our linebackers and linemen kill people. But our backs look like they just don't want to make tackles. Webb dives at shoestrings. Spags doesn't coach that. Melvin wraps up and hugs the guy. Spags doesn't coach that. They've both laid the wood sometimes, but overall, I see two corners that don't like contact. No amount of coaching will make a player like to hit people.

 

With Elam, though, I think he needs coaching. He's just an idiot that leaves his feet too much. But then again, Brooks, Hill, and Jimmy seemed to tackle okay. 

[GrimCoconut]

Then it seems the problem would be Spags or Pees. Spags might be gone soon anyway. He could also become our DC. I don't know what'll happen.

But here's what I see: The defensive backs are scared to tackle. Our linebackers and linemen kill people. But our backs look like they just don't want to make tackles. Webb dives at shoestrings. Spags doesn't coach that. Melvin wraps up and hugs the guy. Spags doesn't coach that. They've both laid the wood sometimes, but overall, I see two corners that don't like contact. No amount of coaching will make a player like to hit people.

With Elam, though, I think he needs coaching. He's just an idiot that leaves his feet too much. But then again, Brooks, Hill, and Jimmy seemed to tackle okay.

Hill and Jimmy are both products of different DB coaches, though I see your point. I give Melvin a pass anyway because he came from a different team and his time to acclimate was very little.

I'll give you Brooks, though. He was good at tackling. I suppose Elam could be the guy who is making me label an entire secondary as poor tacklers. It might not be fair on my part. I just see three years though where we've struggled at tackling and it's frustrating me.

I'm telling you right now that if this bs tackling continues I'm wanting someone fired. It's really killing us. We've never been this bad at tackling, though perhaps I'm forgetting some bad times. It's possible.

[The Raven]

Hill and Jimmy are both products of different DB coaches, though I see your point. I give Melvin a pass anyway because he came from a different team and his time to acclimate was very little.

I'll give you Brooks, though. He was good at tackling. I suppose Elam could be the guy who is making me label an entire secondary as poor tacklers. It might not be fair on my part. I just see three years though where we've struggled at tackling and it's frustrating me.

I'm telling you right now that if this bs tackling continues I'm wanting someone fired. It's really killing us. We've never been this bad at tackling, though perhaps I'm forgetting some bad times. It's possible.

 

You're right. We haven't tackled well in the secondary since Pagano left. Even in the Mattison era we made tackles. 

 

As much as I don't think he's the problem, I'm not against firing Pees just to find something new. A new direction might be good.

[balfan23]

Let's assume we're going to carry at least 10 DBs and we'll want at least 5 at each position (CB and Saftey). If we keep CB: Smith, Webb, Jackson and Melvin and S: Hill, Brooks, Elam and Levine ...

 

That leaves us with at least 1 at each position to acquire elsewhere. Given the guys listed, I'd say there are only 3 that are starter quality (Smith, Webb and Hill). That means the 2 guys we acquire will need to be starter quality, or we'll struggle in this area again next year (even IF everyone stays healthy). 

 

That's a lot to ask .. given it is hard to get a starter quality CB in the draft for year 1 and that we have such cap contraints that will make it hard for us to obtain starter quality FAs. It is entirely possible that we work hard to reduce our cap through cuts and extensions and use that money, not to retain McPhee, but to go after secondary help. 

[GrimCoconut]

You're right. We haven't tackled well in the secondary since Pagano left. Even in the Mattison era we made tackles.

As much as I don't think he's the problem, I'm not against firing Pees just to find something new. A new direction might be good.

I'm not even sure if it's necessary to fire Pees. I just want better tackling. If that means you go and hire a defensive consultant I'm okay with that. I'd definitely consider calling someone over there on the Seahawks to coach tackling to our DBs. It's all I want. I know you can't be perfect. Not everyone is Jimmy.

[Bruce_Almty]

We ran so many of these guys through the organization this year we hardly had time to really evaluate them. Bring all the healthy ones back for spring training and let's see who can help us. We all have our core favorites: Smith, Webb, Hill, Brooks, but we need twice that number. There may be 1 or 2 on roster worth keeping and maybe we need to add 2 or 3 more during FA and the draft.

[balfan23]

I would much prefer that Elam be playing for someone else next season, but I suppose he deserves one more shot.  I'd pretty much keep everyone currently on the roster unless a free agent signing or a draft pick outplays them in TC.  I think the majority of the issues in the secondary were from the ridiculous number of injuries, but I also think that Webb has maybe a year or two of starting ability left in him at most, if it's not already completely gone.  We need someone across from Jimmy.

I don't think we have much of a choice but to give him one more year and pray he wakes up. Given he's a #1, his contract is not favorable for a cut at this point. He'll cost us cap if we do that. If he doesn't turn this around next year, he'll have no shot at being a Raven in 2016. 

[allblackraven]

I want Webb's contract restructured so we can bring high quality FA vet to play opposite Jimmy. No matter who we keep out of the current DB core for depth and who do we draft (at 26), we need another solid starter considering Webb/Jimmy history of injuries. Fix tackling.

 

We also need stability at safety - hopefully Brooks recovers quickly and he and Hill put together entire off season of practice and learn to think as one. They certainly don't lack in speed and ability. Then lock entire secondary in a film room extra time every day until they all see the same and know exactly what everybody is supposed to do. Then go fix tackling.

 

Work hard on our linebackers' coverage play. Would go a long way in preventing yardage on short passing game and make living in secondary easier. Fix tackling.

 

Pray that injury bug left Baltimore not to ever return. Then the only thing left to do would be to go and fix tackling.

[Moderator 3]

Didn't Webb already restructure?

[allblackraven]

Didn't Webb already restructure?

 

No, he just got second contract in 2012. 6y/$50mil or so.

[balfan23]

Didn't Webb already restructure?

Yes .. they did one last August, but it wasn't a massive restructuring ... it saved 3M off of this past year's cap and added a million to next year and to 2016. 

[rmw10]

With Webb, I don't see a restructure as something that can or should be done.  All it does is push money back into the later years and makes it even more difficult to cut him than it is now.  For Webb, I think it has to be a straight pay cut.  That's where we hold the leverage.  His base salary is $8M.  Maybe we can drop it down to $4-5M.  He's not going to get that on the open market if we do cut him.  In all honesty, it's not very beneficial to cut him from the Ravens perspective but at least we'd have that threat against him.

[allblackraven]

Yes .. they did one last August, but it wasn't a massive restructuring ... it saved 3M off of this past year's cap and added a million to next year and to 2016. 

I stand corrected.

[Purple_ICE 81]

I really hope we make revamping and reloading our secondary the number one priority for us this off season.

Overall this season we were solid on defense, grading out as the number 8 defense overall...4th best against the run BUT 23rd against the pass. Obviously with a healthy Jimmy Smith back expect those pass defense numbers to go up. But we definitely need to add some talent at CB.

I would love to see us add a veteran FA CB like a Brandon Flowers, Rashean Mathis, or even a Antonio Cromartie if the price is right. Then draft a young CB within the first couple picks. With Lardarius Webb aging like he is in deep space and Jimmy coming off a tough injury, we will need to add a few more talented CBs this off season to ensure we have more depth next year should someone get injured.

Move Webb EXCLUSIVELY to the slot and bring in a fresh young outside CB with a vet CB for depth and we will be looking much better

[Kid87]

CB Webb,  Melvin, Draft 2nd RD

FS Stewart/ Brooks

SS  HIll / Elam

CB Jimmy, Gorrer, Ross

[Willbacker]

With Webb, I don't see a restructure as something that can or should be done.  All it does is push money back into the later years and makes it even more difficult to cut him than it is now.  For Webb, I think it has to be a straight pay cut.  That's where we hold the leverage.  His base salary is $8M.  Maybe we can drop it down to $4-5M.  He's not going to get that on the open market if we do cut him.  In all honesty, it's not very beneficial to cut him from the Ravens perspective but at least we'd have that threat against him.

Yes!!!!!!! No more restructuring. All this restructuring is making players uncuttable. The only restructure for this year is Ngata and not for another daggone 5 yrs. I'm still shaking my head at the Zuttah deal.

 

I'd like to keep Jimmy, Webb(with a paycut), Brooks, Hill, Elam(deserves 1 more go) and Melvin(seems like a lot of promise). Also bring back Gorrer,Ross and Miles at vet minimums.

[indianstick]

I'm not even sure if it's necessary to fire Pees. I just want better tackling. If that means you go and hire a defensive consultant I'm okay with that. I'd definitely consider calling someone over there on the Seahawks to coach tackling to our DBs. It's all I want. I know you can't be perfect. Not everyone is Jimmy.

 

 

Lol Ray lewis? He can't be having that much fun at espn, I'm sure he will want to come back as a coach already. Sike! But like you said earlier the problem is more with the secondary. Webby used to be probably our best tackler in the secondary (and cover guy) and now he whiffs on open field tackles all day. We need guys who can tackle throughout our D, some of those missed tackles were unacceptable. But we might have to get a new secondary coach which will give him the opportunity to emphasize that

I don't think we have much of a choice but to give him one more year and pray he wakes up. Given he's a #1, his contract is not favorable for a cut at this point. He'll cost us cap if we do that. If he doesn't turn this around next year, he'll have no shot at being a Raven in 2016. 

 

I am definitely hoping that elam wakes up one of these days and becomes the beast playmaking safety we were all excited for him to be when he was drafted. He made some "splash plays" (i hate to use a tomlin term) but his bad plays severely outweigh the good. He deserves another shot. Worst comes worse he will be a special teams guy for the next couple years until he's a FA but that would be a shame. The kid has so much talent, just needs to focus and not over think. 

 

 

If we can restructure Webb thats fine, hopefully he gets back to his old form too but I feel like we have to cut him. We have Jimmy  and asa at corners. Will hill, terrance brooks, elam and then guys like levine trawick and miles can all get a shot along with any one we draft. Ideally we should draft at least two CBs and a safety, guys that can tackle and make plays. I have a mock draft that I'm working on which I'm not going to get into here. The secondary is clearly our biggest need, mainly corners. Jimmy smith is a stud and we need to get ready to resign him to a big contract so it makes sense to home grow a bunch of corners who might even make smith expendable.

 

The bottom line is every corner not named jimmy smith got fried this season, no matter who we put in and I know you can say that we were signing people on tuesday and they started on sunday which is unfortunate but our depth going into the season was smith webb asa and chykie which can not happen again.

[Cillmatic]

It looks like Jimmy, Webb, melvin, Kendrick Lewis and Will Hill will be able to be on the field at once. That would transform us from a terrible secondary to one of the best. #ThankYouOzzie

[Purple_City39]

It looks like Jimmy, Webb, melvin, Kendrick Lewis and Will Hill will be able to be on the field at once. That would transform us from a terrible secondary to one of the best. #ThankYouOzzie

Is anyone else actually excited about that secondary?  

 

Pending Jimmy and Webb actually stay healthy, I think it'll be hard to pass on Baltimore.  Especially with our pass rush.  Will Hill gets an actual offseason here.  Lewis may be a competent safety (which Elam certainly wasn't).  If he's recovered, we know Jimmy can dominate.  And then there's hope that webb can regain some form after all his injuries.  He's actually got something to prove this year.

 

Melvin should also improve plus there's the rookie we will likely draft in the first 2 or 3 rounds from what's called a deep CB draft class.  i'm looking forward to this season

[GrimCoconut]

Nothing has changed with our secondary since we signed Lewis, except Jimmy is now a long time fixture. Lol. This is the same secondary we had a couple weeks ago that people said needed another starter. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer here. On the contrary, I agree that it's a good secondary on paper that still needs work, mainly depth. I just find it funny that people are acting like our secondary just improved when all we did was extend a guy who would've played on the team this year regardless. I'm a huge fan of Jimmy, just saying. The reality is the secondary was good once we signed Lewis to play safety. We really just need depth at CB to help protect against injuries and develop a guy to possibly/likely take over next year. 

 

Edit: Hopefully these changes help support my original intent.

[Alaska Alaska!]

Nothing has changed with our secondary except Jimmy is now a long time fixture. Lol. This is the same secondary we had last year. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer here. On the contrary, I agree that it's a good secondary on paper that still needs work. I just find it funny that people are acting like our secondary just improved when all we did was extend a guy who would've played on the team this year regardless. I'm a huge fan of Jimmy, just saying.

Well... I see the improvements:

1) We acquired Kendrick Lewis

2) Will Hill will start Week 1

3) I believe players like Elam and Rashaan Melvin will be improved.  Asa too.

[rmw10]

Nothing has changed with our secondary except Jimmy is now a long time fixture. Lol. This is the same secondary we had last year. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer here. On the contrary, I agree that it's a good secondary on paper that still needs work. I just find it funny that people are acting like our secondary just improved when all we did was extend a guy who would've played on the team this year regardless. I'm a huge fan of Jimmy, just saying.

 

We did add Kendrick Lewis, but otherwise, I agree.  We still need some help at CB.  I think Melvin did well last year considering, but I don't want to have to count on him just yet.  I think we absolutely have to add someone for now and for the future.

[Alaska Alaska!]

I'm gonna hold off on any real judgement of the status of our team until after the draft (and maybe after training camp when we get a chance to gobble up some Vets)

[GrimCoconut]

Well... I see the improvements:

1) We acquired Kendrick Lewis

2) Will Hill will start Week 1

3) I believe players like Elam and Rashaan Melvin will be improved. Asa too.

Yeah, I realize that on Lewis. I meant to say since earlier this off-season, since we signed Lewis. I don't disagree with any of what you said, only remarking on the general optimism surrounding the secondary when all we did was re-sign Jimmy. Long-term this is a huge deal. It's just I don't recall this same enthusiasm after we signed Lewis. I could just be forgetful though.

[balfan23]

Nothing has changed with our secondary except Jimmy is now a long time fixture. Lol. This is the same secondary we had last year. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer here. On the contrary, I agree that it's a good secondary on paper that still needs work. I just find it funny that people are acting like our secondary just improved when all we did was extend a guy who would've played on the team this year regardless. I'm a huge fan of Jimmy, just saying.

That's true. The celebration of this signing is about securing him for the future and knowing we won't be dealing with a nail biting event next post season, trying to see if we can keep him. 

 

This year's secondary really comes down to Jimmy's health and Webb's health and ability to bounce back. Hopefully Lewis will be a solid contributor and some of the guys we brought in last year can improve. Perhaps even add a little young talent in the draft and there is reason for some cautious optimism. 

[Purple_City39]

Nothing has changed with our secondary except Jimmy is now a long time fixture. Lol. This is the same secondary we had last year. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer here. On the contrary, I agree that it's a good secondary on paper that still needs work. I just find it funny that people are acting like our secondary just improved when all we did was extend a guy who would've played on the team this year regardless. I'm a huge fan of Jimmy, just saying.

Let's just look at the Ravens from the playoffs of last season to the projected starting lineup this year.

 

CB - Injured, still rehabbing, L.Webb vs a potentially healthy Webb

CB - undrafted free agent with no experience R.Melvin vs J.Smith

SS - Matt Elam/Jeromy Miles vs Kendrick Lewis

FS - Will Hill vs Will Hill 

 

Let's be flat out honest.  If we played the Pats with Jimmy and Kendrick over Melvin and Elam/Miles, we'd have most likely won and probably beaten Indy also.  Keeping the good players isn't always a bad thing.  Getting players healthy is always better than playing with your 3rd stringers at starter.  Look at the 2012 playoffs vs the 2012 regular season after week 8.  It was definitely nice getting those injured players back.  Even though they didn't dominate, they played better than their backups