Merged: Brandon Marshall reportedly being traded to the Jets

[usmccharles]

Everybody is always looking for that big,strong #1 wideout. Yep the Patriots and Seahawks were just loaded up with them types of receivers.What you need is a good core of WRs. Not one that stands out from the rest of them.

I get what you guys are saying....But when you have Gronk, who is right up there with the most unstoppable WR is the league, and then you have lynch who is the toughest rb in the league, yea you dont need a elite "wr" but yet they have a top 3 at a position on their team. 

[Inqui]

Everybody is always looking for that big,strong #1 wideout. Yep the Patriots and Seahawks were just loaded up with them types of receivers.What you need is a good core of WRs. Not one that stands out from the rest of them.

The Patriots had Gronkowski, but I'm starting to think this isn't a terrible way to go. For all the talk of Brady and Manning making their receivers better, I think it's a really underrated strength of Joe's. I've really liked having five or six WRs that could potentially pick up 100 yards in a game on any given week, because that seems as tough to defend as anything else.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not opposing going after a WR1. But I'm also beginning to think it's not something we need to force.

[rmcjacket23]

I get what you guys are saying....But when you have Gronk, who is right up there with the most unstoppable WR is the league, and then you have lynch who is the toughest rb in the league, yea you dont need a elite "wr" but yet they have a top 3 at a position on their team. 

I think the overall premise is that its really difficult to add up the list of the generally perceived "elite" WRs in this league and equate their performance in any way to postseason success, particularly once they are on their second contract...

[jazz1988]

The Patriots had Gronkowski, but I'm starting to think this isn't a terrible way to go. For all the talk of Brady and Manning making their receivers better, I think it's a really underrated strength of Joe's. I've really liked having five or six WRs that could potentially pick up 100 yards in a game on any given week, because that seems as tough to defend as anything else.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not opposing going after a WR1. But I'm also beginning to think it's not something we need to force.

 

 

 I feel the same after seeing how well The Seahawks receivers preformed against The Patriots secondary . I stil welcome more talent at the receiver position but if we can get our hands on a  potential elite running back in the draft to go along with Forsett(if he's returns) then I think The Ravens offense would be set

[usmccharles]

I think the overall premise is that its really difficult to add up the list of the generally perceived "elite" WRs in this league and equate their performance in any way to postseason success, particularly once they are on their second contract...

Understandable.  Im just saying, i really like the young guys we have now, but id like to add in that one guy who can put it over the edge and hopefully take pressure off the young guys and let them develope.  I honestly am not too confident if we rolled over to next season keeping the same corps at wr, i wont start the torrey debate again, price is right, sure bring him back, but id much rather let him walk and bring in someone else, especially Marshall. 

[usmccharles]

 I feel the same after seeing how well The Seahawks receivers preformed against The Patriots secondary . I stil welcome more talent at the receiver position but if we can get our hands on a  potential elite running back in the draft to go along with Forsett(if he's returns) then I think The Ravens offense would be set

Forset was in the top 5 last year...i dont think our run game was much of an issue most of the year

[rmcjacket23]

Understandable.  Im just saying, i really like the young guys we have now, but id like to add in that one guy who can put it over the edge and hopefully take pressure off the young guys and let them develope.  I honestly am not too confident if we rolled over to next season keeping the same corps at wr, i wont start the torrey debate again, price is right, sure bring him back, but id much rather let him walk and bring in someone else, especially Marshall. 

I've always been of the mindset that if you want an "elite" WR, when you're the Ravens, its got to come from the draft. We aren't likely to be in a position anytime soon to be spending top dollar on the FA market for barely any players, and in particular, I hate the idea of paying top dollar for a WR when the team he is coming from likely had him for much cheaper for several years.

[D-Rey]

Well, between Wilson and Brady, they still threw for about 6,500 yards and 40 TDs to guys not named Gronk...

That true, though the Pats WR core is much more talented then ours. I think I would rather draft a WR in the first and spend money elsewhere.

[Tru11]

Dewy101, on 02 Feb 2015 - 8:04 PM, said:

If McPhees contract is backloaded like many are it won't be much of an issue. Yes cap goes up, but it doesn't affect the players already signed.

 

backloaded contract means less cap in the future so less to resign players down the road.

 

cap going up affects players you wanna resign or sign though.

or those you wanna restructure and such.

[usmccharles]

I've always been of the mindset that if you want an "elite" WR, when you're the Ravens, its got to come from the draft. We aren't likely to be in a position anytime soon to be spending top dollar on the FA market for barely any players, and in particular, I hate the idea of paying top dollar for a WR when the team he is coming from likely had him for much cheaper for several years.

Funny thing is, i completely agree with that mindset except for one little fact:  The Ravens have never drafted an elite wr, we dont exactly have a good track record with them, last couple years we have been picking in the mid 20s so most of them are gone.  last year i would of loved to have Evans or OBJ but it was clear they wouldnt fall that far.  Im not completely sure on the wrs we have drafted in the past, let me know if i overlooked a guy. 

[rmcjacket23]

Funny thing is, i completely agree with that mindset except for one little fact:  The Ravens have never drafted an elite wr, we dont exactly have a good track record with them, last couple years we have been picking in the mid 20s so most of them are gone.  last year i would of loved to have Evans or OBJ but it was clear they wouldnt fall that far.  Im not completely sure on the wrs we have drafted in the past, let me know if i overlooked a guy. 

There is no debate that the Ravens suck when it comes to drafting receivers.

 

You could argue we don't have a good track record of really trying either. If my math is correct, we've had 37 top-2 round picks in our history, and only 4 of them have been used on WRs.

 

But, realistically, most of the "elite" WRs in this league go in the first round, and oftentimes, go early in the first round. So unless we plan on losing a bunch of games to get a top half of the draft pick in order to get one of these guys, I'm not sure that happens anytime soon.

[Tiz]

Not sure why people are posting as if we need to be more like ne or seattle. I really hope I'm reading it wrong because we pass better than seattle and run better than New England.

New England ypg is half a yard more than ours and seattle actually scored less ppg than we did.

Baltimore needs to just develop baltimore and get some healthy bodies and depth on defense. Why worry about mimicking others when they should be worried about us.

[rmcjacket23]

That true, though the Pats WR core is much more talented then ours. I think I would rather draft a WR in the first and spend money elsewhere.

If we are talking strictly receivers (excluding Gronk), I would disagree with this 1000%.

 

There is very little special about any WR on the entire Patriots roster. I would challenge guys like Edelman or LaFell to do half of what they do in NE on another team. I saw very, very, very little talent from LaFell in four seasons in Carolina.

[usmccharles]

If we are talking strictly receivers (excluding Gronk), I would disagree with this 1000%.

 

There is very little special about any WR on the entire Patriots roster. I would challenge guys like Edelman or LaFell to do half of what they do in NE on another team. I saw very, very, very little talent from LaFell in four seasons in Carolina.

when you have Tom Brady it doesnt really matter, they also have a pretty good coach.  Comparing teams in what each has and should get is pretty useless which i see you gather that. 

[Dewy101]

No, but it could hamstring your future ability to sign players and hand out extensions.

The cap is increasing and players like Suggs and Ngata won't be on the roster in future years that's when players like McPhee start getting their high salaries.

[Dewy101]

backloaded contract means less cap in the future so less to resign players down the road.

cap going up affects players you wanna resign or sign though.

or those you wanna restructure and such.

Increasing cap affects percentage of pay not pay of players. Guys like Suggs and Ngata won't be on the roster in future year. It's simple look at what the Broncos have done they've basically done a pay as you go system with little dead money if they choose to cut. That's essentially what Ozzie did with Flaccos contract. He may get 28 million in 2016, but no way he gets 31 million in 2017.

[rmcjacket23]

Increasing cap affects percentage of pay not pay of players. Guys like Suggs and Ngata won't be on the roster in future year. It's simple look at what the Broncos have done they've basically done a pay as you go system with little dead money if they choose to cut. That's essentially what Ozzie did with Flaccos contract. He may get 28 million in 2016, but no way he gets 31 million in 2017.

Several problems I have with this...

 

1. Its not nearly that simple, because you are assuming McPhee would only be here if Ngata isn't. Ngata could easily get an extension, and Suggs is locked onto this team for at least two more seasons due to his cap allocation.

2. The Broncos scenario doesn't hold any weight, because they mostly signed past-their-prime players to short-term deals with little guaranteed money. Those players weren't likely to get better offers elsewhere.

3. The salary cap does go up... except it goes up for everybody. And when it goes up for everybody, costs of players increase as well. Somebody that costs $6M this season may cost $8M three years from now due to the rising salary cap.

4. Joe's contract is pretty standard for QBs... not even remotely standard for depth pass rushers, which is what McPhee is. And Joe himself isn't making those amounts you listed... he's making $18M in 2016 and $20.6M for 2017. Those figures you showed are just cap numbers, not what Joe actually receives. That's what happens when you prorate signing bonuses. His contract isn't even remotely a "pay as you go" contract, because he essentially can't be released in the first four years of his deal without catastrophic cap implications.

 

Any way you look at it... if you think we can just sign players with backloaded deals because the cap is going up later, there's only one possible outcome when you do that... you have little or no cap space then, and you can't retain the players you want to.

[Tru11]

Increasing cap affects percentage of pay not pay of players. Guys like Suggs and Ngata won't be on the roster in future year. It's simple look at what the Broncos have done they've basically done a pay as you go system with little dead money if they choose to cut. That's essentially what Ozzie did with Flaccos contract. He may get 28 million in 2016, but no way he gets 31 million in 2017.

 

what rmcjacket23 said ^^^^

[Dewy101]

Several problems I have with this...

1. Its not nearly that simple, because you are assuming McPhee would only be here if Ngata isn't. Ngata could easily get an extension, and Suggs is locked onto this team for at least two more seasons due to his cap allocation.

2. The Broncos scenario doesn't hold any weight, because they mostly signed past-their-prime players to short-term deals with little guaranteed money. Those players weren't likely to get better offers elsewhere.

3. The salary cap does go up... except it goes up for everybody. And when it goes up for everybody, costs of players increase as well. Somebody that costs $6M this season may cost $8M three years from now due to the rising salary cap.

4. Joe's contract is pretty standard for QBs... not even remotely standard for depth pass rushers, which is what McPhee is. And Joe himself isn't making those amounts you listed... he's making $18M in 2016 and $20.6M for 2017. Those figures you showed are just cap numbers, not what Joe actually receives. That's what happens when you prorate signing bonuses. His contract isn't even remotely a "pay as you go" contract, because he essentially can't be released in the first four years of his deal without catastrophic cap implications.

Any way you look at it... if you think we can just sign players with backloaded deals because the cap is going up later, there's only one possible outcome when you do that... you have little or no cap space then, and you can't retain the players you want to.

It's not just with QBs. Ozzie backloaded Webbs contract, Monroe's cap hit rises 4 million this season, even Pittas contract is backloaded to some degree. Every team does this. They know they're going to have money in future years. Ngata has at best 3 years left in him of course he's getting an extenstion but he won't be on the team after those years that's when McPhee contact can hit the cap. It doesn't matter what Joe actually earns his cap hit is the only thing that does matter. Yes the cap is projected to rise year after year it doesn't affect players already signed to contracts it Increases percentage of pay at different positions. If the front office wants to keep McPhee it won't be all that difficult. The Broncos signed players to big contracts with little guaranteed money if things don't pan out they have options to cut with not a lot of dead money. Like I said its basically a pay as you go system. If they don't perform to par they can be cut.

[D-Rey]

If we are talking strictly receivers (excluding Gronk), I would disagree with this 1000%.

 

There is very little special about any WR on the entire Patriots roster. I would challenge guys like Edelman or LaFell to do half of what they do in NE on another team. I saw very, very, very little talent from LaFell in four seasons in Carolina.

I should of said receiving core instead of WR core as I meant Gronk as well. He is better than any receiver we have on this team. I would say Edelman might be better than Torrey with his routes and being shifty. Seems to have better hands as well. LaFell is probably better than Jones or Brown. I would say their receiving core as a whole is probably better, Gronk is their number 1 receiver.

[rmcjacket23]

It's not just with QBs. Ozzie backloaded Webbs contract, Monroe's cap hit rises 4 million this season, even Pittas contract is backloaded to some degree. Every team does this. They know they're going to have money in future years. Ngata has at best 3 years left in him of course he's getting an extenstion but he won't be on the team after those years that's when McPhee contact can hit the cap. It doesn't matter what Joe actually earns his cap hit is the only thing that does matter. Yes the cap is projected to rise year after year it doesn't affect players already signed to contracts it Increases percentage of pay at different positions. If the front office wants to keep McPhee it won't be all that difficult. The Broncos signed players to big contracts with little guaranteed money if things don't pan out they have options to cut with not a lot of dead money. Like I said its basically a pay as you go system. If they don't perform to par they can be cut.

You're missing the point, and I outlined this clearly on another thread...

 

This perceived concept of "backloading" isn't accurate, because backloaded contracts from a salary cap perspective are achieved almost exclusively from signing bonuses. Practically ever contract has increasing salaries from front to back, but by at least halfway through the deal and most of the time sooner, those salaries aren't guaranteed, so it doesn't matter if somebody has a $20M salary in the last year of their contract, because none of that is dead money.

 

Can you specifically identify these alleged Broncos contracts that are so cap friendly, because I suspect you're not really seeing what's going on with those. If you are looking to compare the type of deal that somebody like Demarcus Ware got, he got 2/3 of his contract guaranteed and is also 32 years old.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Several problems I have with this...

1. Its not nearly that simple, because you are assuming McPhee would only be here if Ngata isn't. Ngata could easily get an extension, and Suggs is locked onto this team for at least two more seasons due to his cap allocation.

2. The Broncos scenario doesn't hold any weight, because they mostly signed past-their-prime players to short-term deals with little guaranteed money. Those players weren't likely to get better offers elsewhere.

3. The salary cap does go up... except it goes up for everybody. And when it goes up for everybody, costs of players increase as well. Somebody that costs $6M this season may cost $8M three years from now due to the rising salary cap.

4. Joe's contract is pretty standard for QBs... not even remotely standard for depth pass rushers, which is what McPhee is. And Joe himself isn't making those amounts you listed... he's making $18M in 2016 and $20.6M for 2017. Those figures you showed are just cap numbers, not what Joe actually receives. That's what happens when you prorate signing bonuses. His contract isn't even remotely a "pay as you go" contract, because he essentially can't be released in the first four years of his deal without catastrophic cap implications.

Any way you look at it... if you think we can just sign players with backloaded deals because the cap is going up later, there's only one possible outcome when you do that... you have little or no cap space then, and you can't retain the players you want to.

His point is you can afford to sign him bc the cap hit in the first 3 years doesn't hinder your ability to sign other players and once it does become cost prohibitive much of the gauranteed portion is paid out so you have all the leverage to cut/extend him and get cap savings to do what you need at that future date.

I tend to agree... McPhee may only be a rotational player, but I'd argue he helped dumervil and Suggs have the years they did just as much as they help him. Having McPhee here extends both Dumervil's and Suggs' careers so we continue to get production out of them in line with what were paying them.

McPhee is a key piece to the young core of our defense. If you let him walk, a pass rusher becomes an immediate need. And I don't think he'll get as much on the open market as most are assuming. He's not a pure edge rusher - you have to move him around and adjust your defense to out him in good spots and I don't see teams ponying up big money for a player you have to accommodate - and there's the concern of how much did doom and sizzle contribute to his success.

I think he's back and at a relatively cheap price considering his value in this defense (which is much higher than anywhere else).

[757RavensFan]

Was this posted yet?

Marshall wants to play for Trestman if the Bears cut him.

http://www.purplereignshow.com/2015/02/03/could-brandon-marshall-be-baltimore-bound

[Gordo52]

Gut feeling he'll be in purple & black next season.

[rmcjacket23]

His point is you can afford to sign him bc the cap hit in the first 3 years doesn't hinder your ability to sign other players and once it does become cost prohibitive much of the gauranteed portion is paid out so you have all the leverage to cut/extend him and get cap savings to do what you need at that future date.

I tend to agree... McPhee may only be a rotational player, but I'd argue he helped dumervil and Suggs have the years they did just as much as they help him. Having McPhee here extends both Dumervil's and Suggs' careers so we continue to get production out of them in line with what were paying them.

McPhee is a key piece to the young core of our defense. If you let him walk, a pass rusher becomes an immediate need. And I don't think he'll get as much on the open market as most are assuming. He's not a pure edge rusher - you have to move him around and adjust your defense to out him in good spots and I don't see teams ponying up big money for a player you have to accommodate - and there's the concern of how much did doom and sizzle contribute to his success.

I think he's back and at a relatively cheap price considering his value in this defense (which is much higher than anywhere else).

Everything you said about McPhee applied 100% to Paul Kruger as well. Situational edge rusher, not a proven track record of an every-down player, playing alongside Terrell Suggs who was the reigning DPOY. He got $8.2M a year with $20M guaranteed. The Ravens would probably have a tough time paying HALF of that price for McPhee, and he's probably going to get more than that on the open market.

 

I understand the argument quite well... its just a flawed one. If that logic is applied to McPhee... why stop there? Why not re-sign Torrey, Forsett, and everybody else? Why not spend big in FA, because we can just backload the crap out of contracts with large signing bonuses and small base salaries early, and just "worry about it later", which seems to be the logic used here.

 

Doesn't work, won't work, and the Ravens won't do that. There is potential cap savings after year 3... the problem is, the cap savings is far, far, far less than the dead money you are taking on for that player to cut him. We've got plenty of examples of precisely the type of contract you guys are advocating on our own roster, namely Webb and Flacco. Take a look at year four of those deals... potential cap savings exist, its small, and the dead money is huge. Very, very, very bad for the franchise.

 

Remember, just because the guaranteed money is "paid out" doesn't mean its been recognized in cap space by the Ravens yet. There's no guaranteed money left on Joe Flacco's deal after this season either. The Ravens, theoretically, don't have to pay him a dime beyond 2015. Yet, if they didn't and cut him, he'd still have a $25.8M cap hit, even with no guaranteed money left owed to him.

 

There enlies the problem with the logic of "well we can just cut him after three years and it won't hinder our ability to sign people". It does hinder your ability to sign people, because you're taking on dead cap space even when you cut players.

[RaineV1]

Back loading contracts for veterans is something the Steelers used to always do. It ended up leaving them in cap hell for awhile, something I don't want the Ravens to go through.

[PurpleCity5]

I would love for us to get Brandon Marshal but there is no credible source that would give me the indication that it's a possible move. Don't get me wrong, he'd be a #1 here in Baltimore no question. I think he'd be a Super Star. If we could get him in a trade then that would give us a lot of flexibility in the draft and allow us to build our defense. 

 

Imagine our Offense.....Our offensive line....Brandon Marshal at #1, Torrey Smith at #2 and Steve Smith at the slot, with Camp, and Aiken there as well. 

 

We can just focus more attention on our defense. Before we do a move like this we have to get a deal done with Ngata.

 

Other than that, there's no indication from any real source that this is real. 

[GrimCoconut]

I would love for us to get Brandon Marshal but there is no credible source that would give me the indication that it's a possible move. Don't get me wrong, he'd be a #1 here in Baltimore no question. I think he'd be a Super Star. If we could get him in a trade then that would give us a lot of flexibility in the draft and allow us to build our defense.

Imagine our Offense.....Our offensive line....Brandon Marshal at #1, Torrey Smith at #2 and Steve Smith at the slot, with Camp, and Aiken there as well.

We can just focus more attention on our defense. Before we do a move like this we have to get a deal done with Ngata.

Other than that, there's no indication from any real source that this is real.

I think if you get Marshall you've already resigned yourself to letting Torrey go. I can't see any scenario where we retain both.

[PurpleCity5]

I think if you get Marshall you've already resigned yourself to letting Torrey go. I can't see any scenario where we retain both.

Yeah probably...It would still be a good move. I'd like for us to get a deep threat. It would be nice to have Marshall with Smith Sr. and maybe Aghlor later on in the draft. 

[PurpleCity5]

Back loading contracts for veterans is something the Steelers used to always do. It ended up leaving them in cap hell for awhile, something I don't want the Ravens to go through.

It was a three year extension during that time, it only runs up till 2017, Brandon would still be playing on a high level and it would be nice to have him even longer.