Brady to Ravens: 'Study the rule book and figure it out'

[rmcjacket23]

Exactly, and you would think this would be obvious. Kinda makes you wonder about people.

 

No matter, I guess it takes all kinds to make it spin.

But that's all it will ever be... wondering.

 

A lot of time spent wondering is a lot less time spent actually doing...

[allblackraven]

 

2. The reason it doesn't matter is because there is no action that can be taken that will change ANY of the outcomes in the current or near future. You can't quantify or even rationally decide what impact such events would have or could have had on the game. I said earlier... you can't even 100% say that deflating the balls wasn't more beneficial to the Colts than the Pats.

 

I'm not saying they did but what if that was a plan all along and they did practice entire week with deflated balls? That would have been at least somewhat advantageous come game time, don't you think?

[rmcjacket23]

I'm not saying they did but what if that was a plan all along and they did practice entire week with deflated balls? That would have been at least somewhat advantageous come game time, don't you think?

Potentially, but then again, they ran the ball 40 times, so if they did, they didn't exactly do what they practiced.

 

Knowing Belichick, I doubt he spends a lot of time practicing things that aren't a major part of his gameplan. More likely, he spent more time practicing a designed throw to a LT (which he implemented and worked... again) than trying to get an all-world, HOF QB who can throw in any conditions to throw with a deflated football.

 

But, I suppose its possible, so for at least some people, it actually happened exactly that way...

[allblackraven]

Potentially, but then again, they ran the ball 40 times, so if they did, they didn't exactly do what they practiced.

 Lol, maybe it didn't work well for them during practice and they figured "this will throw Luck completely off, let's give the ball to Blount."

[rmcjacket23]

 Lol, maybe it didn't work well for them during practice and they figured "this will throw Luck completely off, let's give the ball to Blount."

I guess.

 

But then again, everybody and their mother knew what the gameplan was going to be, just like they knew what it would be against the Ravens.

 

Stopping it is the difficult part...

[mg90]

I really don't get how the argument of "they cheated but it didn't work/wasn't needed" would be good enough for anyone. That's not gonna fly for me at work lol

[Hardbaugh]

You know the old saying  "once a cheater always a cheater". 

 

I don't see how anyone can read Brian O' Leary's Spygate book and come away not believing the Patriots cheating was extensive, the NFL covered it up and the Patriots are still cheating to this day.

 

Here's a quick read from the NY Post

 

 

 

 

Patriots cheating?   In other news water is wet and night is dark.

[Tank 92]

But that's all it will ever be... wondering.

 

A lot of time spent wondering is a lot less time spent actually doing...

 

 

whaaat?  

[DMH_in_WA]

1. Very, very, very, very, very few people, even the biggest Pats homers, suspected the Pats would blow out the Ravens. A lot of fans on here like to perpetuate the "massive underdog" mentality, but it was shared by very, very, very few people.

I'm not sure if you just didn't go look or if you just decided to ignore it. I always heavily read opponents' forums before a Ravens game to get a feel for the other team (especially one outside the AFC North). There were people who were worried, but a huge portion of the Patriots fanbase thought their team would handle the Ravens easily and many predicted blowouts. Messages like this abounded (taken from the first few pages of a single Patriots' message board thread from before the game):

"Awesome. Best possible matchup. This is the squad that the injury-ravaged 2013 Patriots smoked in their crib 41-7. Ed Reed ain't walkin' through that door. Blowout city. Maybe even a Garoppolo sighting in the fourth.

Couldn't have worked out better."

"The Pats Defense will be the deciding factor in this game. Brady will have troubles, but will still score enough to win thanks to great field position, and turnovers by the Ravens... Patriots 31 [expletive]birds 13"

"Let's not forget that the Ravens barely made it to the playoffs after playing both south divisions. I mean, really?"

"Two words: beat down."

"You aren't feeling fear because you are looking at this logically. The 2012 Ravens aren't taking the field Saturday. We are substantially better than this team in all three phases."

"Baltimore is not a threat. It's fun to play them because we have history and it will feel good to smoke them because they have a filthy fan base, but that's about it."

"All the swag in the world won't stop us from beating them by three scores."

"And the Pats defense is better than the Ravens, for a change. If they don't beat them by at least 2 td's I'll be surprised."

"To be honest, this is the first time, in my opinion, in several years, that we match up perfectly with the Ravens.

How are they going to get first downs, let alone score?"

I could sit here and do this all day .... I could also add in all the talking heads who thought the Patriots would handle the Ravens easily too. As for the rest of your message, well that's your opinion. Lets just say I don't agree with it.

[jaege]

The crazy thing is, the pats didnt have to do ANY of those under handed things.

 

 

Yeah, that's what gets me. All Brady had to do was take advantage of our depleted secondary, like he did in the 2nd half to easily best the Ravens. Indy was a cake walk either way. They could have lined up with just eight guys on the offense and still won handily. Why all the "alleged"  craftiness? They are a solid team, even with a little girl as QB.

[rmcjacket23]

I'm not sure if you just didn't go look or if you just decided to ignore it. I always heavily read opponents' forums before a Ravens game to get a feel for the other team (especially one outside the AFC North). There were people who were worried, but a huge portion of the Patriots fanbase thought their team would handle the Ravens easily and many predicted blowouts. Messages like this abounded (taken from the first few pages of a single Patriots' message board thread from before the game):

"Awesome. Best possible matchup. This is the squad that the injury-ravaged 2013 Patriots smoked in their crib 41-7. Ed Reed ain't walkin' through that door. Blowout city. Maybe even a Garoppolo sighting in the fourth.

Couldn't have worked out better."

"The Pats Defense will be the deciding factor in this game. Brady will have troubles, but will still score enough to win thanks to great field position, and turnovers by the Ravens... Patriots 31 [expletive]birds 13"

"Let's not forget that the Ravens barely made it to the playoffs after playing both south divisions. I mean, really?"

"Two words: beat down."

"You aren't feeling fear because you are looking at this logically. The 2012 Ravens aren't taking the field Saturday. We are substantially better than this team in all three phases."

"Baltimore is not a threat. It's fun to play them because we have history and it will feel good to smoke them because they have a filthy fan base, but that's about it."

"All the swag in the world won't stop us from beating them by three scores."

"And the Pats defense is better than the Ravens, for a change. If they don't beat them by at least 2 td's I'll be surprised."

"To be honest, this is the first time, in my opinion, in several years, that we match up perfectly with the Ravens.

Y

I could sit here and do this all day .... I could also add in all the talking heads who thought the Patriots would handle the Ravens easily too. As for the rest of your message, well that's your opinion. Lets just say I don't agree with it.

Youre quoting fanboards... its kind of proving my point. I'm not interested, nor did I ever intend, on seeking what Patriots fans who post on fanboards thought about the matchup. The credibility and intellect just isn't there to even bother listening to. I could go to a Jaguars fanboard and find a group of fans who think their team will win every game that season.

 

It was in response to people who's opinions are actually worth something... people who are paid to give their opinion and people who's opinions people talk about. Generally and not coincidentally, these tend to also be people with actual experience in football.

 

Sure, you'll find a couple writers or analysts who thought the Pats would blow them out. And you'll also find about five times as many who thought it'd be pretty close to what the game was.

 

Bottom line... using fanboard opinions as a basis for saying how many people thought a game was going to be a blowout is never going to prove anything...

[jaege]

Some of us still believe in fair play, staying within the rules, honesty and sticking to your word. Even if you think those things are outdated.

 

 

 

Well said. Football is about two teams of athletes playing on the field, not some grubby old coach studying the rule books to find a way to take advantage of the opponent. What happened to "its not whether you win or lose, its how you play the game"?

[rmcjacket23]

Well said. Football is about two teams of athletes playing on the field, not some grubby old coach studying the rule books to find a way to take advantage of the opponent. What happened to "its not whether you win or lose, its how you play the game"?

Well, apparently, not only do they play the game better than most other teams, they also prepare to play the game better than every other team as well.

 

Plus, when you're at the professional level, its not really about how you play the game anyway. It really is about winning or losing, and has been for some time. After all, that's what we as fans care about.

 

We only care about "how you play the game" when it benefits our argument to do such...

[jaege]

Well, apparently, not only do they play the game better than most other teams, they also prepare to play the game better than every other team as well.

 

Plus, when you're at the professional level, its not really about how you play the game anyway. It really is about winning or losing, and has been for some time. After all, that's what we as fans care about.

 

We only care about "how you play the game" when it benefits our argument to do such...

 

 

You don't know me. You do not know anything about me.You certainly do not have the status to speak for me. I will assume you are using the royal "we" in your above statement.

[rmcjacket23]

You don't know me. You do not know anything about me.You certainly do not have the status to speak for me. I will assume you are using the royal "we" in your above statement.

Sorry to see that's what you got out of it...

[DMH_in_WA]

Youre quoting fanboards... its kind of proving my point. I'm not interested, nor did I ever intend, on seeking what Patriots fans who post on fanboards thought about the matchup. The credibility and intellect just isn't there to even bother listening to. I could go to a Jaguars fanboard and find a group of fans who think their team will win every game that season.

"Very, very, very, very, very few people, even the biggest Pats homers, suspected the Pats would blow out the Ravens"

That's you .. pretty sure. But of course you're not interested, it shows you were wrong in your proclamation and now you're backpedaling. If not fans, than what Pats homers, pray tell, are you referring to? Or would you like to simply stack the discussion with 5 or 6 people who prove what you are saying and only allow them into the discussion? I'm beginning to understand why you don't see a problem in any of this.

And just for the record, no ... a rulebook is not like life and is not gray. Reading your posts is like listening to someone who watched too much Hallmark channel this month. Yes, there are rules that are open to some level of interpretation and discretion, but by and large the rule-book is by definition black and white. A regulation NFL football must have defined dimensions, materials and construction. They must weigh and be inflated within specific weight and pressure ranges. Tampering with footballs is clearly illegal by rule and not open to ambiguity. Let me know where the gray area is in there.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Go Seahawks.

 

/thread

[Grapple Raven]

I guess we know now why Brady grimaces and scowls so bad when he throws an interception, lol.

 

But seriously, I don't think anyone would argue that an underinflated ball would certainly be easier to grip for throwing and catching purposes, and a better grip would allow for better accuracy when throwing.  If true, it certainly would give the Patriots an advantage, especially in inclement weather conditions such as in this game. 

 

Would it have made a difference in the outcome of THIS game...no.  But again it is just another example of the Patriots' willingness to bend the rules to get an advantage over their opponent.  At some point in time, something is going to have to be done with this franchise's blatant attempts to snub their noses at the NFL  AND  the rules of the game, that for the most part all the other 31 current teams play by. 

 

Each team brings and practices/warm ups/plays with their own 12 footballs that have been checked by their own QB. So the Colts had their footballs and the Patriots had their own.  After they are checked, weighed, marked and catalogued by the referees they are given to the ball boys. A team is allowed to have an extra set of 12 balls on hand if they are playing at home. Kicking balls are handled differently and transported directly to the game from the manufacturers and given to the referees. The change in the handling was done with kicking balls due to the very thing that the Patriots are accused of...tampering.  Changing the shape or weight (PSI) of a football is illegal.

 

Honestly, if I was an NFL player, working my butt off everyday in practice for 6 or 7 months, sacrificing my body and time with my family only to be done in by a team playing less than a clean game I would be pissed off.  That is a year of wear and tear on your body you will never get back. 

 

As a fan, what the Patriots have done and evidently still continue to do is an affront to the spirit of the game and the principles of good sportsmanship. Frankly from just a standpoint of principle it disgusts me. 

 

Belicheck would be served to be reminded of a true patriot in Thomas Paine's words~ "Character is much easier kept than recovered".

[rmcjacket23]

"Very, very, very, very, very few people, even the biggest Pats homers, suspected the Pats would blow out the Ravens"

That's you .. pretty sure. But of course you're not interested, it shows you were wrong in your proclamation and now you're backpedaling. If not fans, than what Pats homers, pray tell, are you referring to? Or would you like to simply stack the discussion with 5 or 6 people who prove what you are saying and only allow them into the discussion? I'm beginning to understand why you don't see a problem in any of this.

And just for the record, no ... a rulebook is not like life and is not gray. Reading your posts is like listening to someone who watched too much Hallmark channel this month. Yes, there are rules that are open to some level of interpretation and discretion, but by and large the rule-book is by definition black and white. A regulation NFL football must have defined dimensions, materials and construction. They must weigh and be inflated within specific weight and pressure ranges. Tampering with footballs is clearly illegal by rule and not open to ambiguity. Let me know where the gray area is in there.

1. Yes that was me, although I clearly wasn't specific enough when I said "biggest Pats homers", as it was intended to be directed towards people who's opinions people actually read and care about, such as writers, analysts, etc., not lifelong Pats fans trying to apply their vast pee-wee football knowledge to judge NFL players. I'll be more specific for you in the future.

 

2. The NFL rulebook, by definition, is gray, hence why the word "interpretation" is frequently used in the NFL rulebook. "Black and white" indicates that no interpretation is required, which clearly isn't accurate by any stretch. There are clearly certain rules that would fall into this category, however most disputable rules would surely classify as "gray".

 

In this instance, this specific would would be classified as "black and white"... with one caveat. Determining whether the ball has been deflated is step one of about a ten step process, and just proving that balls were deflated doesn't mean anything. Proving that the balls were INTENTIONALLY deflated by a specific team would be where an outcome actually occurs.

[rmcjacket23]

I guess we know now why Brady grimaces and scowls so bad when he throws an interception, lol.

 

But seriously, I don't think anyone would argue that an underinflated ball would certainly be easier to grip for throwing and catching purposes, and a better grip would allow for better accuracy when throwing.  If true, it certainly would give the Patriots an advantage, especially in inclement weather conditions such as in this game. 

 

Would it have made a difference in the outcome of THIS game...no.  But again it is just another example of the Patriots' willingness to bend the rules to get an advantage over their opponent.  At some point in time, something is going to have to be done with this franchise's blatant attempts to snub their noses at the NFL  AND  the rules of the game, that for the most part all the other 31 current teams play by. 

 

Each team brings and practices/warm ups/plays with their own 12 footballs that have been checked by their own QB. So the Colts had their footballs and the Patriots had their own.  After they are checked, weighed, marked and catalogued by the referees they are given to the ball boys. A team is allowed to have an extra set of 12 balls on hand if they are playing at home. Kicking balls are handled differently and transported directly to the game from the manufacturers and given to the referees. The change in the handling was done with kicking balls due to the very thing that the Patriots are accused of...tampering.  Changing the shape or weight (PSI) of a football is illegal.

 

Honestly, if I was an NFL player, working my butt off everyday in practice for 6 or 7 months, sacrificing my body and time with my family only to be done in by a team playing less than a clean game I would be pissed off.  That is a year of wear and tear on your body you will never get back. 

 

As a fan, what the Patriots have done and evidently still continue to do is an affront to the spirit of the game and the principles of good sportsmanship. Frankly from just a standpoint of principle it disgusts me. 

 

Belicheck would be served to be reminded of a true patriot in Thomas Paine's words~ "Character is much easier kept than recovered".

And this may all be true... but I have an issue with this "definite advantage for the Patriots" thinking.

 

IF the balls that the Patriots EXCLUSIVELY were using were deflated, and the one's that the Colts were using weren't, then I'd naturally agree that a potential significant advantage exists. But if the same balls are being used by both QBs, and the ball is allegedly easier to throw and catch, why exactly is that better for Brady than Luck?

 

I mean even from a gameplan standpoint, it doesn't really hold up. Clear as day what the two game plans were... Pats were going to run the ball often (which they did), and the Colts were going to throw (because they have to and they did).

 

If they're using the same balls, then how is Brady at a significant advantage over Luck?

[Tank 92]

If they're using the same balls, then how is Brady at a significant advantage over Luck?

 

 

As I mentioned earlier, they don't.  Each team brings 12 balls and uses their own.

[MyRavenHaven]

Speaking of Patriots cheating, did anyone notice the Pats were given an additional 25 seconds on the game clock in the 3rd quarter when the clock ran down to 5 seconds? It hit 5 seconds then all of a sudden it became 25 seconds. Check it out...3rd quarter and start watching when it hits around 6:15. This wouldn't be the first 'clock issue' as we all know from past experience with them.

[rmcjacket23]

Speaking of Patriots cheating, did anyone notice the Pats were given an additional 25 seconds on the game clock in the 3rd quarter when the clock ran down to 5 seconds? It hit 5 seconds then all of a sudden it became 25 seconds. Check it out...3rd quarter and start watching when it hits around 6:15. This wouldn't be the first 'clock issue' as we all know from past experience with them.

It means the refs reset the play clock... any number of reasons why that would happen.

 

It happens in probably every game.

[Grapple Raven]

Jacket you asked: "If they're using the same balls, then how is Brady at a significant advantage over Luck?"

 

Answer:

 

They don't use the same ball in the game Jacket. When the Colts are on the field they are using one of the 12 balls they brought to the game that were QB and referee inspected and approved, same with the Patriots.    The advantage would go to the Patriots if they were using underinflated balls, because in the inclement weather conditions of that game, which was heavy rain and strong winds the advantage would be in their favor, since an underinflated ball is easier to grip and maintain contact with in those conditions.  An underinflated ball would certainly be easier to grip for throwing and a better grip would allow for better accuracy when throwing. The grip on an underinflated ball would make it easier for players to maintain contact when carrying and protecting the ball as well.   It definitely is an advantage. 

 

It occurred in this fashion:  In the second quarter of the game D'Qwell Jackson intercepted Brady and noticed the ball felt deflated, which would have been the first time the opposition would have had a hand on a Patriot ball. Jackson spoke with his team's equipment manager, the equipment manager spoke with Pagano, Pagano to the GM Grigson, and Grigson called the league, the league informed the referees...ball was taken out at the beginning of the third quarter and weighed, as well as other balls were exchanged throughou the remainder of the game.    If proven, it is tampering and it is illegal.

[DMH_in_WA]

1. Yes that was me, although I clearly wasn't specific enough when I said "biggest Pats homers", as it was intended to be directed towards people who's opinions people actually read and care about, such as writers, analysts, etc., not lifelong Pats fans trying to apply their vast pee-wee football knowledge to judge NFL players. I'll be more specific for you in the future.

 

2. The NFL rulebook, by definition, is gray, hence why the word "interpretation" is frequently used in the NFL rulebook. "Black and white" indicates that no interpretation is required, which clearly isn't accurate by any stretch. There are clearly certain rules that would fall into this category, however most disputable rules would surely classify as "gray".

 

In this instance, this specific would would be classified as "black and white"... with one caveat. Determining whether the ball has been deflated is step one of about a ten step process, and just proving that balls were deflated doesn't mean anything. Proving that the balls were INTENTIONALLY deflated by a specific team would be where an outcome actually occurs.

1) Yea .. you might want to be a bit more specific than "people". Although, I'm not sure if it's ego or ignorance that makes you think that you can define who it is that I was originally talking about. Also, you do realize that if this is your stance then in your brilliance, you have discounted any sports opinion that comes out of your mouth, right? Nah, I'm betting you are convinced we all care what comes out of your mouth.

2) There is no caveat. I love how you partly concede you're wrong only to wipe that away by pulling numbers out of thin air on a process you have no real idea about and use that as some kind of proof that you were actually right.

Whatever man.

[rmcjacket23]

1) Yea .. you might want to be a bit more specific than "people". Although, I'm not sure if it's ego or ignorance that makes you think that you can define who it is that I was originally talking about. Also, you do realize that if this is your stance then in your brilliance, you have discounted any sports opinion that comes out of your mouth, right? Nah, I'm betting you are convinced we all care what comes out of your mouth.

2) There is no caveat. I love how you partly concede you're wrong only to wipe that away by pulling numbers out of thin air on a process you have no real idea about and use that as some kind of proof that you were actually right.

Whatever man.

1. Yes, I have discounted my opinion on football... as should any person that spends time expressing their opinion on fanboards. In a good day, maybe two people on this planet will value yours or my opinion about sports. Its why fanboards like this actually exist... so that people who have no voice and irrelevant opinions can share them in the hopes that somebody will care.

 

2. I clearly outlined what the caveat was. If you choose to ignore it, be my guest. I think the "whatever man" line accurately sums up everything you've said so far.

[1/28/01]

Love when people say "I'll make sure I am more specific for you" as a retort.

Edit - And when they say it daily, its a beautiful thing.

[rmcjacket23]

Love when people say "I'll make sure I am more specific for you" as a retort.

Edit - And when they say it daily, its a beautiful thing.

Another provocative, outstanding contribution.

 

Keep up the good work.

[1/28/01]

Another provocative, outstanding contribution.

Keep up the good work.

Pot, meet kettle.

[rmcjacket23]

Pot, meet kettle.

Well, you did once accuse me of only stating the obvious.

 

Kind of hard to argue you aren't the kettle lately...