Perhaps the Harbaugh era needs to come to an end?

[balfan23]

Ozzie is a great GM but he cannot draft offensive playmakers to save his life...That is where we need help. Even with the injuries to our defense, they are hanging pretty tough in the Redzone. Can you imagine how many more sacks Doom and Suggs would have if Jimmy were healthy?

Well, we did have that year where we took Flacco and Rice in the 1st and 2nd rounds and that worked out fairly well. Think about how that could have turned out. Take a look around the league at teams that pick a QB mid 1st round, let that guy run the course for 2 years, give up on him and do it again. 

 

You can say that we've failed to select offensive playmakers in later rounds, but really how many teams find great success in that? Yes, you could cite some examples, but they are the exception not the norm. Torrey is our only 1st or 2nd rounder (other than Flacco/Rice) since 2005 and he was by no means a bust. And let's not dwell on Taylor and Clayton. That is approaching the realm of ancient history.

 

However, I agree wholeheartedly that getting offensive playmakers in the next draft is where we need help. I would be 100% in favor of going the route of 2008, where our first 2 picks are at offensive skill positions. I'd love to see us go WR 1st round and RB 2nd round and don't want to hear about our inability to draft WR talent in the 1st round. We haven't tried that for a full decade now, so let's give that another shot. 

[rmcjacket23]

I really understand your views and I know its no pass or  fail,my point all along is this,

Before HARB who was your choice as HC during the interview process 

From what I recall, Jason Garrett was the frontrunner for the job. We preferred Harbaugh over Rex Ryan, clearly.

 

If you had to choose between those three... does anybody NOT choose Harbaugh realistically?

[PurpleCityLights]

How about we draft some WR and TE in the first 2 rounds.

Can't do that, 2 much like right.......

[PurpleCityLights]

From what I recall, Jason Garrett was the frontrunner for the job. We preferred Harbaugh over Rex Ryan, clearly.

If you had to choose between those three... does anybody NOT choose Harbaugh realistically?

i would have gone with Rex.

[AsianRice]

I don't care what you think; what I care right now is I love the direction of our team are going.  I love John Harbaugh although he has some flaws but nobody is perfect.

 

If you look at some consistent winning organizations, how many times have they changed their HC? more than a decade or so....

 

 

PS: We are too spoiled by one of the best organization in the NFL......

 

edited: Thank God  we are so blessed to have Steve and Ozzie at the horn........otherwise we are changing HC like changing clothes and ending up like the deadskins, Raiders, and bunching of losing teams.....

[rmcjacket23]

Can't do that, 2 much like right.......

So where do the 2-3 secondary players we need much, much, much more come from?

 

Ahh, how short-sighted our fans can be.

[rmcjacket23]

i would have gone with Rex.

And the Jets would have gone with either of the other two...

[The Mom Gene]

i would have gone with Rex.

yeah, and look at that Hot Mess up there in NY.

[PurpleCityLights]

So where do the 2-3 secondary players we need much, much, much more come from?

Ahh, how short-sighted our fans can be.

You must have forgot that we have Jimmy Smith so why would we draft 2? Maybe get 1 in the 3rd or 4th round........Webb is done btw.

[PurpleCityLights]

........You may be right, forgot we need Safety's 2 lol

[Neal Could Block the SUN!!]

Seriously, its not even the off season yet and we already have a call for Harb's head. Can we finish the season with him or should we just boot him now a'la Cam Cameron style??

Seriously..........

[PurpleCityLights]

Seriously, its not even the off season yet and we already have a call for Harb's head. Can we finish the season with him or should we just boot him now a'la Cam Cameron style??

Seriously..........

Get Rex in here. Him & Kubs would be a problem for other NFL teams.

[rmcjacket23]

You much have forgot that we have Jimmy Smith so why would we draft 2? Maybe get 1 in the 3rd or 4th round........Webb is done btw.

1. How do you know we have Jimmy Smith? Take a look at foot injuries (particularly Lisfrancs) and what they've done to corners historically. I'd pump the brakes on those expectations, and pump them fast.

 

2. If Webb is done... how many corners on this roster right now except for Jimmy do you feel great about? You gonna annoint Melvin as a #2 corner after two games? I'm not. Is the idea to just roster 2-3 corners and pray for no injuries at a position that annually has injuries? I was being generous when I said we probably need 2-3.

 

3. That also ignores arguably the more pressing position, which is safety. You don't have a single quality safety under contract for 2015 right now. Sure, you may retain Hill, but you still need at least one more, and depth wise, maybe more. Jeromy Miles isn't under contract, and you've got Elam and a bunch of other garbage.

 

I don't even care if we address some of this via FA, but that doesn't mean WR or TE can't be addressed in FA either.

[rmcjacket23]

Get Rex in here. Him & Kubs would be a problem for other NFL teams.

He doesn't want to come here.

[StingerNLG]

Its the basis for winning or losing the game, but winning or losing the game isn't the basis for defining "consistent". If you were "consistent' in terms of winning or losing, then shouldn't you either win every game or lose every game? Any deviation from that would be considered "inconsistent".

 

Plus, as somebody else mentioned, you're pulling points scored. What makes you think those points scored have anything to do with our offense? You can score points without your offense even being on the field...

 

Well, for starters that poster said nothing about offensive points vs. defensive points.   Although we know the defense has not scored many points this year at all so we can attribute most of that to offense or special teams.   

 

We can also look up stats and see that Flacco has 25 TD's on the year passing and 2 "rushing", and that running backs have 14 TD's rushing between them all.   Defense has scored one touchdown all year, and that was Will Hill.  

 

This is easy to look up here:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/2014.htm

 

So I'm very comfortable assuming the offense and special teams are responsible for all but one score this year.  

 

So scoring has been consistent which means performance has been consistent.   They put up a consistent amount of points per game.  And that has been enough to win 9 games so far, with 2 of those games coming at the hands of a last moment defensive collapse to the Cincinatti Bengals and San Diego Chargers.  

 

So again, I don't know what people are looking for.

[Alaska Alaska!]

i would have gone with Rex.

And then we would have failed

[StingerNLG]

i would have gone with Rex.

 

I guarantee you right now the Jets would love to have John Harbaugh over Rex Ryan 10 out of 10 times.

[tolucaraven]

SB gets you 3 years... after next year, leash will be shorter if they Dont make playoffs.

[rmcjacket23]

Well, for starters that poster said nothing about offensive points vs. defensive points.   Although we know the defense has not scored many points this year at all so we can attribute most of that to offense or special teams.   

 

We can also look up stats and see that Flacco has 25 TD's on the year passing and 2 "rushing", and that running backs have 14 TD's rushing between them all.   Defense has scored one touchdown all year, and that was Will Hill.  

 

This is easy to look up here:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/2014.htm

 

So I'm very comfortable assuming the offense and special teams are responsible for all but one score this year.  

 

So scoring has been consistent which means performance has been consistent.   They put up a consistent amount of points per game.  And that has been enough to win 9 games so far, with 2 of those games coming at the hands of a last moment defensive collapse to the Cincinatti Bengals and San Diego Chargers.  

 

So again, I don't know what people are looking for.

OK, I'll play the "end result" game with you...

 

Using your own statistics, Ravens average 25.9 PPG this season, we will round that up to an even 26 points. A consistent team will score 26 PPG every week, with no deviation.

 

In Ravens wins, the Ravens average 29.6 PPG, and in Ravens losses, the Ravens average 20.5 PPG.

 

So, a consistent team should score 26 points, regardless of win or loss. Yet, we don't. We score basically a TD less per game in our losses.

 

Or... here's an easier argument... explain to me why one week we score 38 and the next week we score 13? Surely you'd agree that a 25 point swing in points scored is meaningful wouldn't you? And you can't use the "better defense" argument, because both are nearly identical in terms of defensive performance on the season.

[StingerNLG]

OK, I'll play the "end result" game with you...

 

Using your own statistics, Ravens average 25.9 PPG this season, we will round that up to an even 26 points. A consistent team will score 26 PPG every week, with no deviation.

 

In Ravens wins, the Ravens average 29.6 PPG, and in Ravens losses, the Ravens average 20.5 PPG.

 

So, a consistent team should score 26 points, regardless of win or loss. Yet, we don't. We score basically a TD less per game in our losses.

 

Or... here's an easier argument... explain to me why one week we score 38 and the next week we score 13? Surely you'd agree that a 25 point swing in points scored is meaningful wouldn't you? And you can't use the "better defense" argument, because both are nearly identical in terms of defensive performance on the season.

 

And as I said, that consistency has led to 9 wins, and likely 10, which BTW right now is better than around 50% of the league.   So I don't see your point here.   No team is going to score the exact same each game, and you WILL have a game where the defense happens to stop you.   And sometimes, the opposing team just scores more points than you, which is why we have 6 losses. 

 

But the notion we're not consistent even though the stats and the scoring 100% shows otherwise doesn't compute to me.  

 

All I can do is show you the numbers.   The numbers backup what I'm saying at every turn, including your argument that all those points weren't on offense which they clearly are.   I just don't know what else to say at this point I'm afraid.

[jazz1988]

You must have forgot that we have Jimmy Smith so why would we draft 2? Maybe get 1 in the 3rd or 4th round........Webb is done btw.

 

actually Webb is starting to play like his old self and i guess you didn't take notice of that. The Texans barely asked their quarterback to throw in Webb directions . Even Harbaugh took notice and said Webb is getting his speed/burst back.

[rmcjacket23]

And as I said, that consistency has led to 9 wins, and likely 10, which BTW right now is better than around 50% of the league.   So I don't see your point here.   No team is going to score the exact same each game, and you WILL have a game where the defense happens to stop you.   But the notion we're not consistent even though the stats and the scoring 100% shows otherwise doesn't compute to me.  

 

All I can do is show you the numbers.   The numbers backup what I'm saying at every turn, including your argument that all those points weren't on offense which they clearly are.   I just don't know what else to say at this point I'm afraid.

But I think that's your problem.. you THINK the numbers show you that. You presented numbers... that's great. But you didn't actually explain anything. You said "well we only scored less than 15 twice". OK, and? Why is 15 points a relevant measurement? Why did you pick that number? Why not 20 points as a relevant measurement? Or why not 26, our current year average? Or how about 21, the current league average?

 

Just picking a random number like 15 (which is a low number in today's NFL) and saying "well we are consistent because we've scored under that only twice" doesn't really prove anything. Its just spinning data to support your own conclusion.

 

That's the thing with presenting statistics... they can be manipulated. I can look at the exact same data set you provided and provide countless examples of "inconsistent" offensive production. I did just that, by referencing the 38 vs 13 games. Playing against extremely similar defenses statistically, we scored 25 less points. That's not consistent.

 

Same exact logic can be applied to every single team in this league. There is no such things as a "consistent" offense or even a "consistent" team.

 

Whether or not the "consistency" you came up with leads to wins doesn't really matter, because there's dozens and dozens of factors (some more relevant than points scored) that lead to wins also.

[Rinbee]

I am a devote Ravens fan, but I am disgusted at the level of play...tired of status quo, tired of three point wins, tired of multi-score losses...tired of the endless excuses...tired of being told it is what it is and accept it...tired of spending thousands of dollars on this crap every year...sometimes change (albeit painful) is necessary in order to move forward...Let's face it...Harbs/Ravens are heading in the wrong direction...

 

I only read the first page of responses.  Enough to know you are only going to get purple-bleeders who can look at anything objectively.  Wins are not enough.  And if you talk about trends, we have 2 very mediocre seasons in which Harbs had complete control of the team and no natural on field leaders.  Flacco goes with the flow and Suggs is too much of a clown.  gone are Ray, Ed, and Q -- real on field leaders.  As much as I was tired of Ray's preaching at the end, HE motivated this team to a SB and it was an entire team that played over its heads, especially Jacoby, that won the SB, not just Flacco.

 

Harbs is a mediocre coach.  Worse than that, he is allowed to pick mediocre assistants.  Kubiak is a better than average OC, but he was allowed to bring in coaches from Houston which was a 2-14 team.  Funny Houston got getter without Kubiak and his buddies.

 

Maybe you knee-jerked a bit, but the coaching situation is a legitimate one to address.  But, like Flacco, another mediocre performer, you will get polarized responses.  Maybe we won a lot of games under Harbs, but we also lost some critical ones due to his poor game management.  Sometimes those few losses mean more than the many wins. 

 

Don't drown in the negs I am sure you will get.  Now I will read the rest of the thread.

[Alaska Alaska!]

I only read the first page of responses.  Enough to know you are only going to get purple-bleeders who can look at anything objectively.  Wins are not enough.  And if you talk about trends, we have 2 very mediocre seasons in which Harbs had complete control of the team and no natural on field leaders.  Flacco goes with the flow and Suggs is too much of a clown.  gone are Ray, Ed, and Q -- real on field leaders.  As much as I was tired of Ray's preaching at the end, HE motivated this team to a SB and it was an entire team that played over its heads, especially Jacoby, that won the SB, not just Flacco.

 

Harbs is a mediocre coach.  Worse than that, he is allowed to pick mediocre assistants.  Kubiak is a better than average OC, but he was allowed to bring in coaches from Houston which was a 2-14 team.  Funny Houston got getter without Kubiak and his buddies.

 

Maybe you knee-jerked a bit, but the coaching situation is a legitimate one to address.  But, like Flacco, another mediocre performer, you will get polarized responses.  Maybe we won a lot of games under Harbs, but we also lost some critical ones due to his poor game management.  Sometimes those few losses mean more than the many wins. 

 

Don't drown in the negs I am sure you will get.  Now I will read the rest of the thread.

Uh... wins are all that matter

[rmcjacket23]

Uh... wins are all that matter

Is it though?... do you think teams like Oakland and Jacksonville are judging their teams success strictly by wins?

 

Not saying the Ravens shouldn't, but I can tell you that teams that are "rebuilding" generally know that they are rebuilding, and as such, they tend to focus on some other aspects of the franchise outside of just the win column.

[codizzle]

I only read the first page of responses. Enough to know you are only going to get purple-bleeders who can look at anything objectively. Wins are not enough. And if you talk about trends, we have 2 very mediocre seasons in which Harbs had complete control of the team and no natural on field leaders. Flacco goes with the flow and Suggs is too much of a clown. gone are Ray, Ed, and Q -- real on field leaders. As much as I was tired of Ray's preaching at the end, HE motivated this team to a SB and it was an entire team that played over its heads, especially Jacoby, that won the SB, not just Flacco.

Harbs is a mediocre coach. Worse than that, he is allowed to pick mediocre assistants. Kubiak is a better than average OC, but he was allowed to bring in coaches from Houston which was a 2-14 team. Funny Houston got getter without Kubiak and his buddies.

Maybe you knee-jerked a bit, but the coaching situation is a legitimate one to address. But, like Flacco, another mediocre performer, you will get polarized responses. Maybe we won a lot of games under Harbs, but we also lost some critical ones due to his poor game management. Sometimes those few losses mean more than the many wins.

Don't drown in the negs I am sure you will get. Now I will read the rest of the thread.

Q over there leading SF to the promised land though right?

[Alaska Alaska!]

Is it though?... do you think teams like Oakland and Jacksonville are judging their teams success strictly by wins?

 

Not saying the Ravens shouldn't, but I can tell you that teams that are "rebuilding" generally know that they are rebuilding, and as such, they tend to focus on some other aspects of the franchise outside of just the win column.

The whole purpose of rebuilding is to build a team that wins.  A team that can win championships. You bring up Oakland and Jax, but look at them.  They're losing franchises.  They do not win.  That's what separates them from the Patriots, who do nothing but win!

[AsianRice]

The more I'm reading into it, I think the OP is probably the 49whiners spy.  He wants to kick a winning coach and replace with a loser coach......

[rmcjacket23]

The whole purpose of rebuilding is to build a team that wins.  A team that can win championships. You bring up Oakland and Jax, but look at them.  They're losing franchises.  They do not win.  That's what separates them from the Patriots, who do nothing but win!

Yes, in the long-run, that's the goal.

 

Do you honestly believe that the Oakland Raiders or the Jacksonville Jaguars assembled their 2014 roster with the intent of winning a SB?

 

Maybe they assembled their roster with the intent of winning a 2016-2017 SB, but not this season, and I doubt their FO is judging their overall product by wins/losses on this season alone.

 

And remember, despite what fans have become accustomed to, the NFL is still pretty cyclical. There was a time where the Jags were an exceptional football team for multiple years, and the Raiders were among the elite franchises in this league. There was also a time when the Patriots were dreadful, the Steelers were bad, and the Packers were well below average... all for long stretches of time.

[Militant X 1]

Yes, in the long-run, that's the goal.

 

Do you honestly believe that the Oakland Raiders or the Jacksonville Jaguars assembled their 2014 roster with the intent of winning a SB?

 

Maybe they assembled their roster with the intent of winning a 2016-2017 SB, but not this season, and I doubt their FO is judging their overall product by wins/losses on this season alone.

 

And remember, despite what fans have become accustomed to, the NFL is still pretty cyclical. There was a time where the Jags were an exceptional football team for multiple years, and the Raiders were among the elite franchises in this league. There was also a time when the Patriots were dreadful, the Steelers were bad, and the Packers were well below average... all for long stretches of time.

 

Great point.  What "cycle" do you think the Ravens are in now?