The reason for the dearth of WRs during the Flacco era

[Tenacious Faulker]

SSS actually has been more productive for the Ravens than he was the last couple of seasons for the Panthers. Boldin became productive but that was only after we got rid of Cam and his deep ball fixation.

I think you mean for his last season with Carolina - his 2011-12 seasons were more "productive".  Definitions of the word may vary here, but he's imo over-hyped by his and fan standards.  Make no mistake, I think he's was "productive" but as a #2 despite him being Joe's #1 read.  

 

He's dropped more passes and in key situations this season than in most of his other seasons on pace for a career high.  He's faded in some games to the point of blending in with the turf.  He's got nearly a 1000 yards with 13.7 yards/catch - he's had 8 better seasons with Carolina averaging more.

 

It's not all him though, Torrey has regressed despite setting a career high in receiving TDs.  Daniels has had his share of drops too.  I've noticed Joe throwing behind receivers more too as opposed to in stride.  That might be the teams incomplete adjustment to the spread offense.  Despite that it is perhaps the best offense since 2006 or even 1996.  

 

There's a multitude of reasons as to "why?" the receiving game has never been prolific and they've only really changed to an offense-oriented team in the last 7 seasons and they've been bad a finding the right formula.  Kubiak has done great overall, but hemay be gone this year and the progress they made goes back to square one.  If he does go and the Dolphins fire Joe Philbin (Packers OC) I'd like them to snap him up asap.

[balfan23]

If he (Kubiak) does go and the Dolphins fire Joe Philbin (Packers OC) I'd like them to snap him up asap.

Miami FO has stated that they intend for Philbin to return:

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/miami-dolphins/

[Ravenslifer]

I think the bottom line is we really haven't drafted many receivers during the Flacco era.  Two his rookie season, David Reed in 2010, Torrey and Doss in 2011, Streeter in the 7th in 2012, Camp in the 7th in 2014.  Conversely, since Andy Dalton was drafted, in that draft plus the 3 drafts that followed, the Bengals took 6 receivers, not to mention they'd drafted 2 receivers in 2010, the year before Dalton was taken.  So that's 8 receivers during the Dalton era, in a 5 year period, compared to 6 receivers in the 8 years around Joe (discounting Figurs who was a return specialist we inexplicably drafted in the 3rd round of 2007).

[RavensFanMania]

this is a good thread because it identifies such a big issue for the ravens. some responses to the thread said it was because of where we were in draft position.

 

look at Pittsburgh . they don't draft much different from us. they lost emmaule sanders and mike wallace to FA and they don't have enough footballs to throw to their new crop of receivers. please stop making it sound like boldin was randy moss. he was a possesion receiver who was a tough guy but also dropped passes.

 

the ravens are a great organization but the idea that ozzie is the best GM in the game is a stretch. he may be good to very good but not very good to great. look at the talent on the seahawks. none of them are FA's they are all low round draft picks.

 

you could start a thread like this for offensive lineman as well. grubbs, yanda, osemele and ogden. there were a lot of misses to get to these 4. i don;t want to start a boller conversation but i'm suprised he made it out fo the NFL alive wiht the olines he had.

The Seahawks is only the past four years, Ozzie has been consistent throughout his time as the Ravens GM and going back to his days working under Belichick with the Browns. Ozzie is one of the best GMs in the game.

[raylewislapsu]

The last time the offense looked good was during the second half of the Miami game, and that's when Torrey's snaps were limited in favor of Brown/Aiken. I don't think that that was a coincidence. At all.

This x 100. I thought that during the entire game.

[PurpleCity5]

Exactly his analysis is still skewed, because he brought in some pretty strong free agents. Boldin, Smith Sr, Jacoby Jones (until this year) so maybe we need to go the free agent route more often.

The draft is never fair to us when it comes to WR's. Our targets always have their stock blown up, taken ahead or traded up for. It happens. This year I think will be different, I believe we'll finally have an elite guy for the future. 

[balfan23]

I think the bottom line is we really haven't drafted many receivers during the Flacco era.  Two his rookie season, David Reed in 2010, Torrey and Doss in 2011, Streeter in the 7th in 2012, Camp in the 7th in 2014.  Conversely, since Andy Dalton was drafted, in that draft plus the 3 drafts that followed, the Bengals took 6 receivers, not to mention they'd drafted 2 receivers in 2010, the year before Dalton was taken.  So that's 8 receivers during the Dalton era, in a 5 year period, compared to 6 receivers in the 8 years around Joe (discounting Figurs who was a return specialist we inexplicably drafted in the 3rd round of 2007).

Thank you ... not drafting WRs might be a real reason for having a dearth of WRs! 

 

Not only have we not drafted many, we have not drafted ANY in round 1 and only 1 in round 2 (Torrey). While we brought in some vets to give us a boost (Q, Mason, Smith Sr.) we've not seen anyone brought in who really had the potential to be that top 10 difference making WR. 

 

What we don't need to do is draft more marginal WRs whose ceiling is being a #3 WR. We have plenty of those ... Brown, Aiken, Jones, Camp ... We need to seek a difference maker .. someone who has a real shot at becoming a true #1 receiver. 

[RavensFanMania]

Who are the top wr coming out in the 2015 draft and who are the FA WR that will be available this year. This would make two good threads for the offseason.

[ravensdfan]

1)  Ozzie can identify the talent, but refuses to overspend (i.e draft picks) to get them because we usually draft so low.

2)  The Ravens have been awful at developing their WR corps.  I can't put a finger on it but they've been bad no matter who the coach is.

3)  Kubiak may be able to do more with developing the offense's WR consistency IF he stays for another year as our OC.  After yesterday he just might.

4)  The Ravens also tend to find good WRs in free agency too, but they always tend to be less productive here - Mason, Boldin, Smith Sr., Houshmanzadeh.  Again, it seems like WR coaching and coordination, but coaches have changed and things are the same.

 

This team seems to suck the life out of WRs.  

 

The bulk of the FA pick ups were done before they came here and it was obvious. We constantly treat the offense like a patchwork quilt and then expect it to perform like some fine linen. It's ridiculous.

I think the bottom line is we really haven't drafted many receivers during the Flacco era.  Two his rookie season, David Reed in 2010, Torrey and Doss in 2011, Streeter in the 7th in 2012, Camp in the 7th in 2014.  Conversely, since Andy Dalton was drafted, in that draft plus the 3 drafts that followed, the Bengals took 6 receivers, not to mention they'd drafted 2 receivers in 2010, the year before Dalton was taken.  So that's 8 receivers during the Dalton era, in a 5 year period, compared to 6 receivers in the 8 years around Joe (discounting Figurs who was a return specialist we inexplicably drafted in the 3rd round of 2007).

This. We draft that one 7th rounder and expect him to become "that" guy. As already pointed out, the odds of WR talent becoming a solid starter are not great to begin with so when you draft one low and only draft one, the odds become a zillion to one.

Ozzie needs to stop ignoring the offense in the draft though. By the time he gets around to drafting a decent receiver, Flacco will be drawing retirement checks.

[Ravenslifer]

Who are the top wr coming out in the 2015 draft and who are the FA WR that will be available this year. This would make two good threads for the offseason.

 

You can check the draft section, we have all kinds of discussions on the subject going on - suffice it to say there are only two free agent WRs worth anything this offseason, and both are going to be resigned by their current teams.

[redrum52]

You act as if Ozzie ignore wr. I think k he understands his short comings whihcbis why he tries to go the FA route. Again. Jacoby was re-signed with Pitta. Steve Smith was picked up as well, and we weren't the only team trying to get him. We traded for a center and we had an All Pro running back when the season started. It's not like Ozzie ignored the offense. See it how you want, but the defense needed the most help and it's apparent they're the most reliable unit on this team, for the most part, so I would personally, probably put more more stock in them and the run game. Even with new rules we still struggle in the pass game for whatever reason, though to me, a lot of it seems to be execution. This team seems to think it can show you what it's going to do and then just run the play and beat you. For whatever reason, it rarely seems like we scheme guys open with easy things like rub routes or quick patterns. Then there's the fact we suck at screens. Thingz that should be easy for us, always seem difficult. Let's not forget all the goal line stands and short yardage struggles. Stuff like that to me screams lack of execution, cause there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get 1 stinking yard.

[Ravenslifer]

this is a good thread because it identifies such a big issue for the ravens. some responses to the thread said it was because of where we were in draft position.

 

look at Pittsburgh . they don't draft much different from us. they lost emmaule sanders and mike wallace to FA and they don't have enough footballs to throw to their new crop of receivers. please stop making it sound like boldin was randy moss. he was a possesion receiver who was a tough guy but also dropped passes.

 

the ravens are a great organization but the idea that ozzie is the best GM in the game is a stretch. he may be good to very good but not very good to great. look at the talent on the seahawks. none of them are FA's they are all low round draft picks.

 

you could start a thread like this for offensive lineman as well. grubbs, yanda, osemele and ogden. there were a lot of misses to get to these 4. i don;t want to start a boller conversation but i'm suprised he made it out fo the NFL alive wiht the olines he had.

 

 

I disagree completely - Antonio Brown is the ONLY exception for the Steelers.  Heath Miller, Santonio Holmes in the first round, Limas Sweede in the second round, Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, Marcus Wheaton, Matt Speath in the third round, all since 2005, the year we took clayton.  On our own end - Clayton, Torrey, Dickson, Gilmore (who was a comp so we might not have even gotten him without that bit of luck), so 7 top 100 picks to 4, and you'll notice that Sweede, Speath, and Wheaton have all so far been busts - so if Gilmore works out both teams will be hitting about 50 percent of their receiver picks, the difference is the amount of picks.  The Steelers are NOT afraid to fail at drafting a receiver, and they keep doing it every other year at most, basically doubling up our draft picks in the same time span, spending 2 first round picks on receivers in that span.  They are constantly spending top 100 picks on receiving talent, and I left out Bryant this year but he was the 118th overall pick, barely outside the top 100 - actually it's equivalent to taking Gilmore with the comp, so basically 8/4 in favor of the Steelers.

[ravensdfan]

You act as if Ozzie ignore wr. I think k he understands his short comings whihcbis why he tries to go the FA route. Again. Jacoby was re-signed with Pitta. Steve Smith was picked up as well, and we weren't the only team trying to get him. We traded for a center and we had an All Pro running back when the season started. It's not like Ozzie ignored the offense. See it how you want, but the defense needed the most help and it's apparent they're the most reliable unit on this team, for the most part, so I would personally, probably put more more stock in them and the run game. Even with new rules we still struggle in the pass game for whatever reason, though to me, a lot of it seems to be execution. This team seems to think it can show you what it's going to do and then just run the play and beat you. For whatever reason, it rarely seems like we scheme guys open with easy things like rub routes or quick patterns. Then there's the fact we suck at screens. Thingz that should be easy for us, always seem difficult. Let's not forget all the goal line stands and short yardage struggles. Stuff like that to me screams lack of execution, cause there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get 1 stinking yard.

So we resigned a primarily return guy - who we all knew still basket caught 99% of passes, we brought in a 35 yr old that was cut for falling production, Pitta (TE, not WR but we'll go there) brought in an aging TE coming off injury, cut from his previous team for falling production, kept a UDFA, and then drafted a 7th rounder. Oh I forgot the 3rd rd Gilmore pick for his blocking. This discussion is about WRs so you throwing in Center and RB like that counts is irrelevant and smoke and mirrors.O

Ozzie ignores WR and overall, offense in the draft. So we wind up with heavy turnover from year to year (no way to build an offense) and 6th & 7th rd talent (no way to be consistent).

It isn't made up, it is fact. You can look over the last 20 years and how many times we've drafted a high pick receiver (include TE in that ratio) and then go compare it to other teams. Ozzie ignores the offense in the draft.

We patch it together and then wonder why it fails to perform like a top notch machine.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

Regardless of who has been unlucky with injuries, or whether or not Ozzie is good at picking wide receivers, we need one early rounds next year. 

 

We have one of the best deep ball throwing quarterbacks in the league (barring yesterday), but my problem is, no one seems to be able to win a physical contest one on one when the corner has good coverage.

 

Torrey will win if he has a step and the ball is out in front, Steve can do the same; problem is, neither are great at winning jump balls - Torrey relies on finesse, and although Steve is strong, he's too short. Neither are Antonio Brown-type slot receivers, nor are they physical specimens like Dez Bryant. 

 

It might be time to just bite the bullet, and draft a receiver higher up. Ozzie does a fantastic job overall, but these receivers are proving too hit and miss. The only receiver we have had in recent history that has had the physical presence we need is Anquan Boldin, who we let walk. 

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

Side note, Jacoby has to go. He's living off his reputation from 2 years ago, and does next to nothing for this team.

[jimjim5]

I think it's that we can't develop their talent. There's a reason some teams are WR factories and others aren't. It's coaching. We haven't had systems or coaches capable of developing wide receivers. 

 

I totally agree with this assessment.

[jimjim5]

Regardless of who has been unlucky with injuries, or whether or not Ozzie is good at picking wide receivers, we need one early rounds next year. 

 

We have one of the best deep ball throwing quarterbacks in the league (barring yesterday), but my problem is, no one seems to be able to win a physical contest one on one when the corner has good coverage.

 

Torrey will win if he has a step and the ball is out in front, Steve can do the same; problem is, neither are great at winning jump balls - Torrey relies on finesse, and although Steve is strong, he's too short. Neither are Antonio Brown-type slot receivers, nor are they physical specimens like Dez Bryant. 

 

It might be time to just bite the bullet, and draft a receiver higher up. Ozzie does a fantastic job overall, but these receivers are proving too hit and miss. The only receiver we have had in recent history that has had the physical presence we need is Anquan Boldin, who we let walk. 

 

What I find amazing is - that we (fans) see it, but they (FO) don't address it!

[Militant X 1]

Who are the top wr coming out in the 2015 draft and who are the FA WR that will be available this year. This would make two good threads for the offseason.

 

It won't matter!  Ozzie will continue to be Ozzie and pass on any remaining top prospects at the WR spot and draft a defensive guy from Alabama.  Then use that old tired excuse of drafting "the best available player" on the board.  If you need a #1 WR...then go get him!  Stop drafting lower tier players and bringing in the "old guys"....oh...I meant FA's.

[flynismo]

I think it's that we can't develop their talent. There's a reason some teams are WR factories and others aren't. It's coaching. We haven't had systems or coaches capable of developing wide receivers.

Agree 1 bajillion %.

[MrPlankton]

The more the team keeps going the "late round/FA" route for receivers the more games we'll have where the receiving corps gets completely shut down. 

[ravensdfan]

It won't matter!  Ozzie will continue to be Ozzie and pass on any remaining top prospects at the WR spot and draft a defensive guy from Alabama.  Then use that old tired excuse of drafting "the best available player" on the board.  If you need a #1 WR...then go get him!  Stop drafting lower tier players and bringing in the "old guys"....oh...I meant FA's.

And you know what? If that is what Ozzie wants this team to be, so be it. Then get off the ledge and do it! Stop acting like you're all in for the offense and build that suffocating defense. Go back for the ground and pound. Be the Seahawks. Get rid of Pees first though, cuz whether you like him or not, bend but don't break will not cut it for a ground and pound team. You'll need someone more aggressive.

[ravensdfan]

Agree 1 bajillion %.

hmmm...enlighten me here please. Who is that vast talented soul we failed to develop? Who went on to do great things with another team?

 

I'm willing to entertain this idea, I just don't see any evidence to suggest it is the case. We've had guys cut that went to a few of those WR factories - and then were cut from there.

[HoldingCall]

I agree!  I mentioned this a while back in reference to Torrey Smith's development in comparison to Antonio Brown's development as a top #1 WR in the league.  Torrey was selected by the Ravens in the 2nd round, the 58th overall pick in the 2011 NFL Draft and Antonio Brown was drafted by the Steelers as their second of two selections in the 6th round, the 195th overall pick in the 2010 NFL Draft.  I questioned how it was that a 6th rounder can come on the scene like gangbusters for his team and be a major player in the league and our 2nd rounder is still struggling with his route running?  Of course, I got the different systems excuses and more.  Please!  Smh!

I think a part of the answer to how someone drafted in the 6th round can outdo one drafted in the 2nd round is with the system they come from and then go to. I am a believer that many players (not all) must be accurately matched with the system and players they is going to play with.

 

Example: A certain student performs better with a certain teacher while another student performs better with an entirely different teacher. Switch the teachers (teams) and neither perform as well.

 

 I believe, WRs fit this more than any other position in the NFL. It is the exceptional elite WR who will shine no matter where they are. That's where drafting the right WR for your team becomes a gamble. Few scouts know until he proves himself at the next level whether he was elite or just a product of his (teacher) system where he thrived. Elite WRs are rare! Elite scouts, probably more rare.

[jazz1988]

So we resigned a primarily return guy - who we all knew still basket caught 99% of passes, we brought in a 35 yr old that was cut for falling production, Pitta (TE, not WR but we'll go there) brought in an aging TE coming off injury, cut from his previous team for falling production, kept a UDFA, and then drafted a 7th rounder. Oh I forgot the 3rd rd Gilmore pick for his blocking. This discussion is about WRs so you throwing in Center and RB like that counts is irrelevant and smoke and mirrors.O

Ozzie ignores WR and overall, offense in the draft. So we wind up with heavy turnover from year to year (no way to build an offense) and 6th & 7th rd talent (no way to be consistent).

It isn't made up, it is fact. You can look over the last 20 years and how many times we've drafted a high pick receiver (include TE in that ratio) and then go compare it to other teams. Ozzie ignores the offense in the draft.

We patch it together and then wonder why it fails to perform like a top notch machine.

 

Jacoby Jones was alot better last year than he is now and it  wasn't like he was terrible  as a receiver either. The guy was  a solid number 3 receiver and  he showed that last year and in 2012. He also was a solid number 3 receiver for The Texans but wasn't able to live up to their expectations since they wanted him to be a number 2 receiver. Steve Smith is 35 years old  but it still  was quite telling for teams like The Patriots, Chargers, Seahawks, and etc to have interest in   him.

 

I think they obviously still thought he had alot left in the tank  and they were correct.   Steve Smith and Brandon Lafell were on the same team  last year and both of them are having better production this year stat wise than last year. One of main reasons why Owen Daniels was signed to our team was because he knew Gary Kubiak offensive system better than any one on the team and he would be able to teach others about Gary Kubiak system. Crockett Gilmore was not drafted in the third round because of his blocking only and he definitely had to be look upon as having upside as receiver as well.

 

Micheal Campanaro was drafted in the seventh round but there's a reason why The Ravens actually traded back until the seventh round for him because honestly he wasn't suppose to even be there . He was rated high as fourth or fifth rounder but fell for some odd reasons but when you have  deep draft of talented receivers it can do that especially if the receiver is coming from a small school with injury concerns.

[ravensdfan]

Jacoby Jones was alot better last year than he is now and it  wasn't like he was terrible  as a receiver either. The guy was  a solid number 3 receiver and  he showed that last year and in 2012. He also was a solid number 3 receiver for The Texans but wasn't able to live up to their expectations since they wanted him to be a number 2 receiver. Steve Smith is 35 years old  but it still  was quite telling for teams like The Patriots, Chargers, Seahawks, and etc to have interest in   him.

 

I think they obviously still thought he had alot left in the tank  and they were correct.   Steve Smith and Brandon Lafell were on the same team  last year and both of them are having better production this year stat wise than last year. One of main reasons why Owen Daniels was signed to our team was because he knew Gary Kubiak offensive system better than any one on the team and he would be able to teach others about Gary Kubiak system. Crockett Gilmore was not drafted in the third round because of his blocking only and he definitely had to be look upon as having upside as receiver as well.

 

Micheal Campanaro was drafted in the seventh round but there's a reason why The Ravens actually traded back until the seventh round for him because honestly he wasn't suppose to even be there . He was rated high as fourth or fifth rounder but fell for some odd reasons but when you have  deep draft of talented receivers it can do that especially if the receiver is coming from a small school with injury concerns.

Why is it, that every 6th and 7th rounder we draft at WR someone says "oh but they are actually a 5th rounder". No they're not. And I disagree about Gilmore. We are using him as a blocker. That's even after Pitta went down. Instead of getting him on the field we abandoned the 2 TE sets once Pitta went down. That says something about Gilmore. We did not even try.

Camp is a 7th rounder. Until he proves otherwise, that is what he is. No one else was clamoring for him above that 7th round were they?

This is exactly what I am talking about though. Ignore the offense in the draft and everyone pulls out the excuses or tries to re-rate the guys we drafted. They are what they are.

I actually like Camp. I would like him better if he'd stay healthy, but he is never going to be more than perhaps a #3 WR. We don't need another #3. Right now I'd say we don't have a solid #2 WR. Torrey & Smith Sr are too inconsistent and drop way too many passes.

We don't need the NFL definition of a true #1 receiver but we do need someone who can actually run a crisp route, fight for contested balls and has good hands. Not 3 guys who all have one of those talents but lack the other 2.

[jazz1988]

Why is it, that every 6th and 7th rounder we draft at WR someone says "oh but they are actually a 5th rounder". No they're not. And I disagree about Gilmore. We are using him as a blocker. That's even after Pitta went down. Instead of getting him on the field we abandoned the 2 TE sets once Pitta went down. That says something about Gilmore. We did not even try.

Camp is a 7th rounder. Until he proves otherwise, that is what he is. No one else was clamoring for him above that 7th round were they?

This is exactly what I am talking about though. Ignore the offense in the draft and everyone pulls out the excuses or tries to re-rate the guys we drafted. They are what they are.

I actually like Camp. I would like him better if he'd stay healthy, but he is never going to be more than perhaps a #3 WR. We don't need another #3. Right now I'd say we don't have a solid #2 WR. Torrey & Smith Sr are too inconsistent and drop way too many passes.

We don't need the NFL definition of a true #1 receiver but we do need someone who can actually run a crisp route, fight for contested balls and has good hands. Not 3 guys who all have one of those talents but lack the other 2.

 

The only 6th and 7th round receiver I can think of that were actually rated higher was Aaron Melette and Micheal Campanaro. I don't say these things just to be saying it but I say it because  i actually follow the draft especially when it comes to creating my own mock draft and etc. I try to do my research as well and both Campanaro and Mellette were considered  to be steals.

 

No team drafts a tight end in the third round if the expectations is  for him is to be a blocking tightend only for the rest of his career .The guy just needs time to develop but he definitely is a third round because Ozzie like his upside as a receiver to go along with his blocking skills.  No one was clamoring for Donald Driver before The Packers drafted him the seventh round, No one was clamoring for  Marques Colston before The Saints drafted him in the seventh round, No one was clamoring for T.J Housmanzadeh before he was drafted in the seventh round by The Bengels, No was clamoring for Stevie Johnson before The Bills drafted him in the seventh round and there's so much more like Eric Martin(Saints),Harold Carmichael(Eagles), and Troy Brown(Patriots). 

 

Overall history has proven time and time again that you can find solid to great receivers in the lower rounds and it has taught me to never underestimate talent base off what round they were drafted in.  Torrey Smith is obviously having down year but  he still solid number 2 receiver or receiver in general in my opinion and the same can be said about Steve Smith. Joe Flacco having inconsistent receivers aren't really new but just because they inconsistent doesn't mean they not solid either.

[reed20]

In what world were Travis Taylor and Mark Clayton solid starters? I wonder if Torrey is even a solid starter.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

In what world were Travis Taylor and Mark Clayton solid starters? I wonder if Torrey is even a solid starter.

 

 

Solid NFL receivers.

Solid NFL receivers.

It says, if you'd go back and read, "solid NFL receivers"

 

But in actuality, when you look at their numbers, they're both right in line with what you typically see from #2 receivers, which are starters. And they were considered starters wherever they played.

[flynismo]

hmmm...enlighten me here please. Who is that vast talented soul we failed to develop? Who went on to do great things with another team?

 

I'm willing to entertain this idea, I just don't see any evidence to suggest it is the case. We've had guys cut that went to a few of those WR factories - and then were cut from there.

Clayton? He was supposed to be the next Derrick Mason. Travis Taylor had a lot of potential that was never tapped into as well, although I can't put all of it on the system and coaching. And what about the vets that we have brought in and their play / production took a nose dive once they got here, Boldin being the most notable example.

[Ed_Reed_Pick_Six]

What I find amazing is - that we (fans) see it, but they (FO) don't address it!

 

Agree.

 

It's too important now to have dynamic play makers on offense.

 

We have good players, but no game changers. Not here to pile on the front office, but the NFL has shifted - we have average wide receivers and a bad secondary now - and being good in both is essential in today's NFL.