Vent thread: Dolphins(first half) Talk about the Game (second half)

[ravensdfan]

I haven't seen the prevent defense at all except for when sitting on 2+ score leads late in the game. The coverage was really the same throughout the entire game. A mixture of man and zone. The CBs were rarely if ever jamming WRs at the LOS. A lot of times in man you will see one CB lined up closer to the LOS with the other CB pretty far off, but that was consistent for the whole game. He tended to call man more frequently on 3rd down while playing zone earlier, but the biggest difference was just the front 4 dominating the Miami OL. I think I counted 7 blitzes the entire day and most of the sacks came on 4 man rushes.

The mix of man and zone was indeed much the same. The zone played much tighter and you three so far are the only ones saying otherwise. Check the thread.

Same with the CBs moving closer to the LOS. Your buddy even disagrees with you that it wasn't an adjustment.

 

Get together and get the arguments in line. smh

[gabefergy]

The mix of man and zone was indeed much the same. The zone played much tighter and you three so far are the only ones saying otherwise. Check the thread.

Same with the CBs moving closer to the LOS. Your buddy even disagrees with you that it wasn't an adjustment.

 

Get together and get the arguments in line. smh

What does this even mean? I'm telling you exactly what happened during the game. 

[gabefergy]

What? Seriously?

 

Are you saying that in game adjustments are not made? That isn't part of the game? Or did I misunderstand what you were saying.

I'm saying you don't know what adjustments are made or aren't made. You like to say things, but have zero factual evidence to back it up.

[ravensdfan]

I'm saying you don't know what adjustments are made or aren't made. You like to say things, but have zero factual evidence to back it up.

 

Okay - the CBs just decided with a few minutes left in the half to line up closer to the LOS.

 

And...I guess they just decided to close that 10 yd cushion they always give a bit as well. All on their own - for some reason known only to you and a higher power.

 

Other than your own opinion, I might point out, you don't exactly have any facts.

[gabefergy]

Okay - the CBs just decided with a few minutes left in the half to line up closer to the LOS.

 

And...I guess they just decided to close that 10 yd cushion they always give a bit as well. All on their own - for some reason known only to you and a higher power.

 

Other than your own opinion, I might point out, you don't exactly have any facts.

What you are saying isn't accurate. There is nothing opinion related in where the CBs lined up. There wasn't a change. The Doplhins didn't even have the ball at the end of the half, do you watch the games?

[ravensdfan]

What you are saying isn't accurate. There is nothing opinion related in where the CBs lined up. There wasn't a change. The Doplhins didn't even have the ball at the end of the half, do you watch the games?

Okay I'll let everyone know that Miami did NOT have the ball with 5 minutes left in the half cuz they're all wrong.

 

Do YOU even watch the games?

[ravensdfan]

1. He played closer to the LOS because he's playing one of the only teams on the planet that literally refuses to throw deep, no matter what the strengths or weaknesses of the opposition is. The problem is... fans have been advocating he play closer to the LOS against teams that CAN go deep, and they do go deep, and we give up big plays because of it.

 

 

Didn't catch whole game so I'm not trying to jump in and explain what we did but I would say our defense could play like because we weren't worried about getting beat deep

That isn't Miami's game. We were able to keep the defense tight and use front seven which helped us dominate after a rough start

Any team that can't stretch out our D is gonna have a hard hard time moving consistently or even moving at all

 

gabefergy, on 08 Dec 2014 - 7:15 PM, said:

What you are saying isn't accurate. There is nothing opinion related in where the CBs lined up. There wasn't a change.

 

I'd agree but apparently there is.

[Inqui]

What an enlightening discussion.

[gabefergy]

I'd agree but apparently there is.

You are wrong. I rewatched the entire game. There was literally no change in where the CBs were lining up. 

[gabefergy]

Okay I'll let everyone know that Miami did NOT have the ball with 5 minutes left in the half cuz they're all wrong.

 

Do YOU even watch the games?

You didn't say five minutes, you said the end of the half when the Ravens had the ball. 

[ravensdfan]

I suppose we could have tried them, but I'm guessing Pees reads these blogs and couldn't stand the thought of being simultaneously bashed for having his secondary play too close AND too far away from the LOS at literally the same time.

 

If you think that's impossible, you would be correct, yet it is possible in the world of internet forums.

 

In the end, as it has been since the beginning of time and for the rest of time, its mostly about the personnel. A coach's perception is about 90% based on the production/output/talent of the people he coaches. Its taken over a decade for people to realize that, no, Marvin Lewis was not some special DC. In fact, I'd argue he's no better than an average DC.

 

But he coached one of the most talented group of defensive players most of us will ever seen, and thus, he's awesome.

Please elaborate on how Pees is this great DC and Lewis is average.

[ravensdfan]

You didn't say five minutes, you said the end of the half when the Ravens had the ball. 

I said the last few minutes before the half. I didn't say at the end of half.  But yes, the phrasing was confusing.

[Willbacker]

Our CBs were playing so tight to the receivers you couldn't drive a toothpick thru them with a sledgehammer

[codizzle]

I understand what you're saying - but these are things that we should have been trying when we were failing. They might have failed - understood. But insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

And these are not things he began doing from the word go - they were adjustments made later in the game - something else we've not seen from Pees much this season. In game adjustments.

Ehh I hear ya but your main focus as a secondary should be to never let anyone behind you..

Give them the completion in front of you if you must and make them execute a 10 play drive over a 4 play drive.. Gives greater chance of a turnover/offense commiting an error/ etc.

When you have tackling issues and poor play in the secondary, that philosophy can be exposed. But that style is going to be the best to use to cover our current deficiencies

[Florida Ravens Fan]

1. He played closer to the LOS because he's playing one of the only teams on the planet that literally refuses to throw deep, no matter what the strengths or weaknesses of the opposition is. The problem is... fans have been advocating he play closer to the LOS against teams that CAN go deep, and they do go deep, and we give up big plays because of it.

 

2. Everything you are saying is precisely why you should literally be praising him. But instead, you choose to not praise him and make comments like "he's just doing what he's supposed to do". That, ladies and gentleman, is hypocrisy at its finest. Bury the guy when he does a poor job, and right off him doing a great job by saying "well he's just doing his job".

 

Using that logic, I can't justify praising any single player ever again. I can't praise Dumervil, because he's paid to sack the QB, so he just did his job. I can't praise Flacco, because he's paid to complete passes at will and lead us on long drives.

Even with our cbs playing off LOS they still get burnt, they gave up what 800+ yards against Saints and chargers. We should be playing closer to the LOS and be physical, if we get burnt we get burnt that's what been going all year anyways. The cbs give too much cushion and allow the teams to get easy first downs. This is the worst passing D in franchise history if I'm not mistaken, and yes I don't solely put blame on Pees.   

[codizzle]

I'd agree but apparently there is.

That's why I said "i didn't catch the entire game"

I'd have to rewatch and you would have to see pre snap and post snap positioning to be able to tell what the cb's are doing...

I don't have game rewind this year so haven't been able to study like in the past so I don't try and act like I know everything like some on here.

Just watching live it's impossible for us normal folk to tell what exact defense is being played by every level every play.. You can't see the entire defense on any single play in any part of the game

If you're just talking about where CB's are lining up then yea you could visually see that pretty much every snap but not what zone depth they're playing etc

[gabefergy]

Also Dolphins completely abandoned the run in the 2nd half, so maybe what looked like "adjustments" by the DC was really just the Dolphins changing their gameplan for whatever reason.

[ravensdfan]

Ehh I hear ya but your main focus as a secondary should be to never let anyone behind you..

Give them the completion in front of you if you must and make them execute a 10 play drive over a 4 play drive.. Gives greater chance of a turnover/offense commiting an error/ etc.

When you have tackling issues and poor play in the secondary, that philosophy can be exposed. But that style is going to be the best to use to cover our current deficiencies

Under normal circumstances I'd agree as well but when the safe way is failing nearly 100%- it is time to at least try something else.  Don't know if it would have worked or not - each team is different. Just would have liked to see us try something.

[The Raven]

It amazes me that people blame coordinators when things go wrong yet they chalk up our successes to the coordinator making a change.

 

Did you ever think the players just played better?

 

That begin said, Pees did make one change this game that I hope stays. Allowing the line to attack instead of react is the key to unleashing our defense.

[rmcjacket23]

Please elaborate on how Pees is this great DC and Lewis is average.

Well, nobody even remotely suggested that Pees is a great DC.

 

As far as Lewis, in his first five years with the Bengals, where he was essentially the HC and DC, his defenses averaged 26th in yardage allowed and 22nd in points allowed in the league. It wasn't until the Bengals basically overhauled the defense and hired Mike Zimmer that they showed even a little improvement.

 

As clearly a defensive minded HC, Marvin Lewis' defenses in Cincinnati over the past 11 seasons average 16th in yardage allowed and 16th in PPG allowed.

 

The very definition of average.

[gabefergy]

It amazes me that people blame coordinators when things go wrong yet they chalk up our successes to the coordinator making a change.

 

Did you ever think the players just played better?

 

That begin said, Pees did make one change this game that I hope stays. Allowing the line to attack instead of react is the key to unleashing our defense.

Do you think this has to do with the Zone Read that Miami likes to run?

[ravensdfan]

Our CBs were playing so tight to the receivers you couldn't drive a toothpick thru them with a sledgehammer

well...um...not quite but that gave me a chuckle.

[The Raven]

Well, nobody even remotely suggested that Pees is a great DC.

 

As far as Lewis, in his first five years with the Bengals, where he was essentially the HC and DC, his defenses averaged 26th in yardage allowed and 22nd in points allowed in the league. It wasn't until the Bengals basically overhauled the defense and hired Mike Zimmer that they showed even a little improvement.

 

As clearly a defensive minded HC, Marvin Lewis' defenses in Cincinnati over the past 11 seasons average 16th in yardage allowed and 16th in PPG allowed.

 

The very definition of average.

 

And honestly, Marvin's philosophy is almost identical to Pees' philosophy. Pressure with four, play zone, swarm to the ball, and eliminate the target. That's pretty much all the Bengals do.

[Willbacker]

Ehh I hear ya but your main focus as a secondary should be to never let anyone behind you..

Give them the completion in front of you if you must and make them execute a 10 play drive over a 4 play drive.. Gives greater chance of a turnover/offense commiting an error/ etc.

When you have tackling issues and poor play in the secondary, that philosophy can be exposed. But that style is going to be the best to use to cover our current deficiencies

If it's 3rd and 5 you're OK with giving up that 6 yd pass. Those long drives also tire out a defense but of course it matters on what receiver and QB tandem you're facing but against the Dolphins we could play a little closer cuz Tannehill is not known for throwing the deep pass.

[The Raven]

Do you think this has to do with the Zone Read that Miami likes to run?

 

I do think that's a part of it. The easiest way to kill the stretch zone or the option run is to blow up the oline and penetrate. 

 

I also think part of it is that Ngata, the only one who can truly handle himself in a read and react scheme, is out. Jernigan, Canty and co. are much better off attacking.

 

Why we've been so conservative up front with these guys, I have no idea. That's my lone grief with Pees. He doesn't let the linemen do what linemen like to do.

[berad]

If that's not the right type of exotic, then what is? You want him to be creative and you criticize him for it.

 

There's different ways to be creative or exotic but that, specifically, was 'creative' but not effective. That's what I meant by it.

Dumervil is out of place in coverage. Awkward in a backpedal, lost in a zone, short frame which isn't very helpful when defending passes, and very uncomfortable in space. Pees knows this because he's done it before and Dumervil has been exploited in coverage multiple times.

 

What adjustments did he make, exactly?

Don't have All-22 to re-watch the game but I'll keep an eye out this week for specifics. Terrell Suggs said this for what it's worth:

“We had to make some adjustments,” outside linebacker Terrell Suggs said. “We had to get accustomed to what they were doing. We have the best coaches in the league and we made the proper adjustments and that’s why we were successful in the second half.”

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Defense-Steps-Up-Without-Haloti-Ngata/94261ba3-f400-4cc3-b643-f577cf617828

---------

Btw, not bashing Pees. The Dumervil thing annoyed me because I've commented on it before, if I see you know Pees has... Pees called a great game, made the adjustments, and the players responded. As Webb said:

“[Defensive Coordinator] Dean Pees put together a game plan for the ages,” cornerback Lardarius Webb said. “It was awesome what he came up with this week. That’s just how it showed. Everybody was able to play fast.”

[codizzle]

If it's 3rd and 5 you're OK with giving up that 6 yd pass. Those long drives also tire out a defense but of course it matters on what receiver and QB tandem you're facing but against the Dolphins we could play a little closer cuz Tannehill is not known for throwing the deep pass.

Yea there's a balance.. That long drive will tire a defense out.. That's why getting a turnover and capitalizing on them are crucial..

That's also why when our offense is clicking our defense performs better as well

[rmcjacket23]

 

There's different ways to be creative or exotic but that, specifically, was 'creative' but not effective. That's what I meant by it.

Dumervil is out of place in coverage. Awkward in a backpedal, lost in a zone, short frame which isn't very helpful when defending passes, and very uncomfortable in space. Pees knows this because he's done it before and Dumervil has been exploited in coverage multiple times.

 

Don't have All-22 to re-watch the game but I'll keep an eye out this week for specifics. Terrell Suggs said this for what it's worth:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Defense-Steps-Up-Without-Haloti-Ngata/94261ba3-f400-4cc3-b643-f577cf617828

---------

Btw, not bashing Pees. The Dumervil thing annoyed me because I've commented on it before, if I see you know Pees has... Pees called a great game, made the adjustments, and the players responded. As Webb said:

 

I agree, but I don't recall Dumervil backing into coverage that often, and its obviously just a disguise technique. On a call like that, you're almost certainly trying to be deceptive with your pressure (which is all Rex Ryan does by the way), and you're also just trying to drop a guy back into what is likely a zone coverage and give the QB something else to think about. I can promise that Tannehill or any other QB doesn't expect Dumervil to drop into the short passing zone, and if nothing else he floods the area.

 

I've said before that its the kind of defensive call that the Bengals do on us all the time, and it confused the crap out of Joe. They will show a 4 man rush, drop back an end or even a tackle and rush a linebacker instead, and Joe doesn't see the guy dropping into coverage.

 

Again, not something I see us do often because we can all agree that Dumervil isn't great in coverage.

[berad]

I agree, but I don't recall Dumervil backing into coverage that often, and its obviously just a disguise technique. On a call like that, you're almost certainly trying to be deceptive with your pressure (which is all Rex Ryan does by the way), and you're also just trying to drop a guy back into what is likely a zone coverage and give the QB something else to think about. I can promise that Tannehill or any other QB doesn't expect Dumervil to drop into the short passing zone, and if nothing else he floods the area.

 

I've said before that its the kind of defensive call that the Bengals do on us all the time, and it confused the crap out of Joe. They will show a 4 man rush, drop back an end or even a tackle and rush a linebacker instead, and Joe doesn't see the guy dropping into coverage.

 

Again, not something I see us do often because we can all agree that Dumervil isn't great in coverage.

It's happened enough that I remember commenting and being peeved about it before. That's more than enough to me.

I understand the logic and it might work with most anyone except Dumervil. Drop Sizzle, he's much more comfortable in space.

The issue is just that it's Dumervil, to me.

[ravensnick]

On the bright side, our passrush is something else. Doom now leads the league in sacks, and Suggs and Doom are on pace for the most sacks produced by a pair in a season in ravens history (trailing Pryce and Thomas rn by like one or two)