Ray Rice wins appeal, immediately reinstated

[ravensnick]

I see a trip to the land of the dying careers (Oakland).

[Jokerraven]

This is a GREAT read...  Janay's story of their relationship and that entire day....

Folks should take the time to read this...  It basically gives you the back story of what went down and how their relationship was built.  They're gonna make it.  With the foundation and the strength they have, I do believe that.

 

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/11913473/janay-rice-gives-own-account-night-atlantic-city

Thanks for the link. That was a fantastic read .

[cobrajet]

Bottom line is we threw RIce under the bus when the video became public .

 

What did we expect to see? Rice told the truth and the Ravens organization even  gave Ray and

Janay talking points in their meeting with that phony Goodell ,who implied Ray told him

a different version of events then what the tape showed.

 

Goodell's lack of judgement cost our team big time.

 

Rice ought to file a lawsuit against Goodell for defamation. There was no different version of events.

It is not that I do NOT disagree with what you are saying, but I am not sure that it is completely fair to say that the Ravens "threw him under the bus." I do remember the fire storm when that video broke and it erupted with a vengeance. At the time, I really think the Ravens would have taken a serious beating if they did not cut him, and felt that it was probably the right move at the time. I do know that even the biggest public backlashes usually die down over time, not all but most. Of the things that I have heard about Ray, I believe if anyone can learn from this mistake and overcome it - Ray can. Even if you think the Ravens should have handled it differently, you can probably agree that they really should not have been put in that situation in the first place.

[ravensdfan]

I have plenty of experience in wrongful termination lawsuits my friend. So don't tell me this baloney that I know nothing about this legal field .As a CEO for 30 years dealing with employment issues and lawyers I'm sure I know more then you ,unles you happen to be a lawyer yourself.

 

When I say its a win , he's gonna win money. Don't interpret my comment as saying he hasn't lost in the overall situation.

 

I believe Rice has a good case,better than most I would have to say and particularly in a union environment.

I call baloney on your "experience" because he is right and you are wrong. Wrongful termination lawsuits must show discrimination, especially in cases like the NFL where players can be terminated at any time and only receive any guranteed money.

 

The ONLY way to win such a lawsuit is by proving one of the following: discrimination, retaliation or defamation of character. He has no basis for any of those.

[arnie_uk]

No such thing as wrongful dismissal in the nfl

[Guest I-70WestRaven]

Ray who? Why do you care? Let it go and support our team! Rodger sucks and this falls on him. Wasted tread, let's play some football! Go Ravens!!

[jimmypowder]

I call baloney on your "experience" because he is right and you are wrong. Wrongful termination lawsuits must show discrimination, especially in cases like the NFL where players can be terminated at any time and only receive any guranteed money.

The ONLY way to win such a lawsuit is by proving one of the following: discrimination, retaliation or defamation of character. He has no basis for any of those.

Rice is gonna win either in court or an out of court settlement .

When he wins are you gonna come here and say you were wrong ,Mr. Attorney?

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/wrongful-termination-was-firing-illegal-32282.html

You conveniently left out breach of faith ,etc. to make your point . There is more to wrongful termination then you mentioned .

Be honest next time .

[rmcjacket23]

Rice is gonna win either in court or an out of court settlement . When he wins are you gonna come here and say you were wrong ,Mr. Attorney? http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/wrongful-termination-was-firing-illegal-32282.html You conveniently left out breach of faith ,etc. to make your point . There is more to wrongful termination then you mentioned . Be honest next time .

Did you actually read the very section that you referenced on breach of faith?

 

Please provide me an explanation of why you think that is relevant to Rice's case, based on the examples provided in that very article you quoted?

 

Also, please read the last paragraph under that section. Its is VITAL.

[Smoke]

Here's how I see it...Ray started this whole thing in motion because of TERRIBLY POOR decisions made under the influence. The NFL compouned this situation with VERY POOR leadership throughout this entire process. The Ravens organization was caught in the middle, especially faced with the pressure of competing in the NFL, and failed to respond appropriately. Again, though, Ray put them in this situation.

 

So, with all that being said, considering that it was OBVIOUS that Jenay and Ray were doing their absolute best to move forward TOGETHER the Ravens should have found some other way to distance the player from the organization a la Aldon Smith, even if it meant placing him on the non-injury reserved list (if possible) with the narrative that the team is giving the couple the time and space to pursue counseling and that a future decision regarding Ray's employment will be made at a later time when it is less emotional for all parties involved.

 

Now as a result of cutting him, and being the way the world works, we all know that some organization is going to sign Ray because they are going to put together the PR campaign/counseling services in place to empower his success focusing on the truth that we all make mistakes and deserve a second chance. Frankly, at 27, I absolutely expect that Ray will become a vested asset in that community and do all the good he can to fight bullying and domestic violence there.

 

It REALLY upsets me that he was never given the chance to do something like this for Baltimore, before cutting him, especially as this is where his heart lies (don't forget his daughter is named Rayven). Good for him and his family, If he is given the opportunity to do/build something positive for another community, but it just compounds my disappointment and sadness for what Baltimore lost out on IF he should wind up playing for a division rival, especially Pitt.

I have to say I agree with you.  The Ravens were backed into a corner and had to react, unfortunately they threw Ray under the bus.  Sorry but they stood behind Ray Lewis in his Atlanta situation, they should have stood behind Ray.  What he did was terrible,  but everyone does deserve a 2nd chance.  He told the truth from beginning, so why such a shock when second video came out. Now the Ravens have a black eye just like the commish and have put themselves in cap hell with his salary

[Tru11]

Did you actually read the very section that you referenced on breach of faith?

 

Please provide me an explanation of why you think that is relevant to Rice's case, based on the examples provided in that very article you quoted?

 

Also, please read the last paragraph under that section. Its is VITAL.

 

you could argue that the ravens misled rice by telling him they would stand by him and he wont get cut lol.

 

heck they kept him for months only to cut him after the vid came out.

 

now the judge did side with rice saying there is no evidence that rice misled Goodell when they spoke.

so he was called back.

 

now i doubt rice misled the ravens at any point.

So its going to be intresting to see on what grounds the ravens did cut him,giving they where saying the opposite since the incident.

 

nobody can really argue this is just like your every day cut though.

its a unique case.

 

saying its for cap reasons or he isent good enough or something like that aint gonna fly lmao

 

its probaly a long shot for him to win but its quitte possible.

[ravensdfan]

Rice is gonna win either in court or an out of court settlement . When he wins are you gonna come here and say you were wrong ,Mr. Attorney? http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/wrongful-termination-was-firing-illegal-32282.html You conveniently left out breach of faith ,etc. to make your point . There is more to wrongful termination then you mentioned . Be honest next time .

 

There is no breach of faith to this case. Players are cut from teams all the time for no reason at all. It does not apply.

 

Also, you should actually read the entire source you just provided. It would prove very enlightening to you apparently.

 

"

• ring or transferring employees to prevent them from collecting sales commissions
• misleading employees about their chances for promotions and wage increases
• fabricating reasons for firing an employee when the real motivation is to replace that employee with someone who will work for lower pay
• soft-pedaling the bad aspects of a particular job, such as the need to travel through dangerous neighborhoods late at night, and
• repeatedly transferring an employee to remote, dangerous, or otherwise undesirable assignments to coerce the employee into quitting without collecting severance pay or other benefits that would normally be due.

Those are good faith breaches. None apply.

Then there is even this part:

Some courts don't recognize the "good faith and fair dealing" exception to at-will employment. And some states require that a valid employment contract exists before employees can sue for a breach of good faith and fair dealing.

 

 

I stand by my baloney call - especially since you just get all in attack mode and don't dispute it.

[The Mom Gene]

you could argue that the ravens misled rice by telling him they would stand by him and he wont get cut lol.

 

heck they kept him for months only to cut him after the vid came out.

 

now the judge did side with rice saying there is no evidence that rice misled Goodell when they spoke.

so he was called back.

 

now i doubt rice misled the ravens at any point.

So its going to be intresting to see on what grounds the ravens did cut him,giving they where saying the opposite since the incident.

 

nobody can really argue this is just like your every day cut though.

its a unique case.

 

saying its for cap reasons or he isent good enough or something like that aint gonna fly lmao

 

its probaly a long shot for him to win but its quitte possible.

This allows you to believe it could go either way...  and it appears that things are going his way.

[Tru11]

There is no breach of faith to this case. Players are cut from teams all the time for no reason at all. It does not apply.

 

Also, you should actually read the entire source you just provided. It would prove very enlightening to you apparently.

 

I stand by my baloney call - especially since you just get all in attack mode and don't dispute it.

 

this cut wasent like any normal case though.

 

its hard to argue it was for cap reasons.

hard to argue it was because he isent a good player.

no medical reasons.

he wasent a locker room cancer.

 

you cant say personal conduct since he has been on the team for months since the incident and he behaved since that incident so no escalation in behavior orso.

heck i doubt they can argue he misled them.

 

the only reason i can say is just to save face which is PR related lol.

 

The ravens did say they would support him numerous times and 1 can argue that cutting him is not that supportive lol.

[jimmypowder]

There is no breach of faith to this case. Players are cut from teams all the time for no reason at all. It does not apply.

Also, you should actually read the entire source you just provided. It would prove very enlightening to you apparently.

"

• ring or transferring employees to prevent them from collecting sales commissions
• misleading employees about their chances for promotions and wage increases
• fabricating reasons for firing an employee when the real motivation is to replace that employee with someone who will work for lower pay
• soft-pedaling the bad aspects of a particular job, such as the need to travel through dangerous neighborhoods late at night, and
• repeatedly transferring an employee to remote, dangerous, or otherwise undesirable assignments to coerce the employee into quitting without collecting severance pay or other benefits that would normally be due.

Those are good faith breaches. None apply.

Then there is even this part:

Some courts don't recognize the "good faith and fair dealing" exception to at-will employment. And some states require that a valid employment contract exists before employees can sue for a breach of good faith and fair dealing.

I stand by my baloney call - especially since you just get all in attack mode and don't dispute it.

Wait till it's played out in court and someone in the organization admits that they told Ray he was safe from being cut or any further disciplinary action after the 2 game suspension punishment was enacted .

I will admit that wrongful termination lawsuits are difficult to win but Rice has a good shot .

[Tru11]

This allows you to believe it could go either way...  and it appears that things are going his way.

 

yeah i dont think anyone can say its like your normal every day cut that happens in the NFL.

 

its an unique case.

 

rice could bring up the ray lewis and jamal lewis cases where the ravens said they would stand by their player and the ravens actually did.

heck jamal lewis served time based on his plea agreement and the ravens kept him.

 

if similair promises where made to rice and it shows he did not misled them well who knows what the ruling might be.

 

im not ruling him out at having a shot at winning this.

 

we can al agree he would have been on the team if the vid did not come out and the ravens panicked lol

[Super_Boltz]

Chargers most likely team to sign Rice I would think..... RB injuries up the wazilla..  A place controversial players have been speculated to go or have went (michael Sam, Manti Teo)   

[The Mom Gene]

Chargers most likely team to sign Rice I would think..... RB injuries up the wazilla..  A place controversial players have been speculated to go or have went (michael Sam, Manti Teo)   

Except that neither of those two had "legal" issues...

[ravensdfan]

this cut wasent like any normal case though.

 

its hard to argue it was for cap reasons.

hard to argue it was because he isent a good player.

no medical reasons.

he wasent a locker room cancer.

 

you cant say personal conduct since he has been on the team for months since the incident and he behaved since that incident so no escalation in behavior orso.

heck i doubt they can argue he misled them.

 

the only reason i can say is just to save face which is PR related lol.

 

The ravens did say they would support him numerous times and 1 can argue that cutting him is not that supportive lol.

And again, I stand by our release of Pollard as a perfect example. None of those reasons could be applied to him either. His cap hit was minimal. An NFL team does not have to provide any reason to release a player. Period. They merely are required to provide any guaranteed money. It happenes every day sometimes providing head scratching to the max as they're good players.

 

Actually, Rice's 2013 performance provides plenty of reason to cut him if the Ravens chose to go that route. Nothing says it has to be done in any certain time frame, nor that they can't change their minds based on players available. They won't do that because they don't  have to.

 

NFL teams are not required to give cause to cut a player. Period. No matter what the circumstances.

[rmcjacket23]

this cut wasent like any normal case though.

 

its hard to argue it was for cap reasons.

hard to argue it was because he isent a good player.

no medical reasons.

he wasent a locker room cancer.

 

you cant say personal conduct since he has been on the team for months since the incident and he behaved since that incident so no escalation in behavior orso.

heck i doubt they can argue he misled them.

 

the only reason i can say is just to save face which is PR related lol.

 

The ravens did say they would support him numerous times and 1 can argue that cutting him is not that supportive lol.

Quick question though...

 

Why don't you think the "he isn't a good player" argument isn't valid? You've two consecutive seasons of decreased statistical production across the board (carries, yardage, YPC, TDs, receptions, receiving yardage), and he's soon to reach the age where all the statistical measurements plotted over time historically show that RB production plummets.

 

Certainly nobody thinks they cut him because of his poor production, but if you wanted to, its actually a very easy argument to make, especially with a RB.

[rmcjacket23]

Wait till it's played out in court and someone in the organization admits that they told Ray he was safe from being cut or any further disciplinary action after the 2 game suspension punishment was enacted .

I will admit that wrongful termination lawsuits are difficult to win but Rice has a good shot .

What information exists that shows the FO told Ray they wouldn't cut him? Can you provide a source for this?

[Tru11]

And again, I stand by our release of Pollard as a perfect example. None of those reasons could be applied to him either. His cap hit was minimal. An NFL team does not have to provide any reason to release a player. Period. They merely are required to provide any guaranteed money. It happenes every day sometimes providing head scratching to the max as they're good players.

 

Actually, Rice's 2013 performance provides plenty of reason to cut him if the Ravens chose to go that route. Nothing says it has to be done in any certain time frame, nor that they can't change their minds based on players available. They won't do that because they don't  have to.

 

NFL teams are not required to give cause to cut a player. Period. No matter what the circumstances.

 

cutting pollard made the raven gain 1 mil in cap in 2013.

cutting rice lost the ravens 4.75 in 2014 and  9.5 mil in 2015 lol

 

how can you argue they are similiar?

 

a NFL team does not publicly have to state why they cut players, in court however they will have to provide 1 when ask.

 

if you think the ravens can go in court and say we do it all the time i dont have to give you a reason , i bet the judge will be really amused lol.

 

i doubt you are that naieve into thinking there isent a reason for every cut made.

 

just because teams dont come out and tell you the reason every time they cut someone doesent mean there isent 1.

 

they are bussiness and every decision made has to have some ground on why that decision is made.

 

They have no obligation to share it but that doesent mean there aint 1 lol

[rmcjacket23]

cutting pollard made the raven gain 1 mil in cap in 2013.

cutting rice lost the ravens 4.75 in 2014 and  9.5 mil in 2015 lol

 

how can you argue they are similiar?

 

a NFL team does not publicly have to state why they cut players, in court however they will have to provide 1 when ask.

 

if you think the ravens can go in court and say we do it all the time i dont have to give you a reason , i bet the judge will be really amused lol.

 

i doubt you are that naieve into thinking there isent a reason for every cut made.

 

just because teams dont come out and tell you the reason every time they cut someone doesent mean there isent 1.

 

they are bussiness and every decision made has to have some ground on why that decision is made.

 

They have no obligation to share it but that doesent mean there aint 1 lol

1. The Ravens SAVED $4.75M in cap space in 2014, not lost, because they didn't pay him his base salary, therefore it didn't count against the cap in 2014. The 2015 number is correct.

 

2. By the same token, judges tend to use common sense more than most people think. So if the judge actually asked the Ravens to explain why they cut him, they'd probably just show him the video that the world has already seen, and they'd tell the judge this is the reason why we cut him.

 

Though I doubt a judge cares about any of this, but if I had to show somebody why I cut him, I'd show them three pictures.

 

1. The picture of his fist connecting with her face (and frankly you could probably just stop right there)

2. A picture of a graph showing a downward-diagonal line showing the rapid decrease in on-field production from Ray between 2011-2013.

3. A picture of a historical statistical graph indicating the extreme downward trend in production of RBs who are 28 years old or older (which is what Ray will be in less than 2 months).

 

Then I would politely ask what rationale the judge would have for continuing to employ this person...

[ravensdfan]

cutting pollard made the raven gain 1 mil in cap in 2013.

cutting rice lost the ravens 4.75 in 2014 and  9.5 mil in 2015 lol

 

how can you argue they are similiar?

 

a NFL team does not publicly have to state why they cut players, in court however they will have to provide 1 when ask.

 

if you think the ravens can go in court and say we do it all the time i dont have to give you a reason , i bet the judge will be really amused lol.

 

i doubt you are that naieve into thinking there isent a reason for every cut made.

 

just because teams dont come out and tell you the reason every time they cut someone doesent mean there isent 1.

 

they are bussiness and every decision made has to have some ground on why that decision is made.

 

They have no obligation to share it but that doesent mean there aint 1 lolw

The judge has no say - the NFL policies in place do. A judge is not going to reverse contracts between the NFL and the players' union. To think they will is ludicrous.

 

In any such case, contracts between parties are followed, they will not be overruled and in fact, Rice has to prove wrongful termination within the existing environment. Not the other way around. The Ravens do not have to "prove" anything. It is one reason they are so difficult to win. The burden of proof is on the complaintant not the defendant.

 

Unless he has a recording of Steve Bisciotti saying "we will not cut you" or words to that effect in writing - he is pretty much done. All the Ravens have to show - if anything - is a financial loss from the bad PR. Period. If they have to show anything at all.

 

PR is actually a very viable reason for cutting a player under the current rules.

 

As for monies owed for the season, that gets tricky. Rice certainly will not receive his pay for his 2 game suspension and since the league had suspended him indefinitely - the Ravens were not required to pay him at the time. Whether he'll get his pay for the season because of the suspension being overturned, that I do not know.

[GrimCoconut]

I don't think the Ravens cut Rice to save money and I certainly don't think it was because he declined. His cut is certainly related to the incident. If I had to imagine, I'd assume we cut Rice because of the negative perception to our brand nationwide and not just locally.

I'll take this a step further: if for some reason the Ravens are liable for the money because they didn't cut him originally, would those companies who endorsed him that didn't revoke their endorsements with the original video also be liable?

I ultimately think this is an uphill case for Rice. I thought he would win the struggle with the NFL, but his fight against the team is a highly unlikely one imo.

The best argument the Ravens have is that this second video caused a great strain on their brand. I understand that I initially damaged their brand but I feel the damage was far worse with the second video and they had to make a move to salvage their brand.

That's why I feel the Ravens win this one.

[cobrajet]

And again, I stand by our release of Pollard as a perfect example. None of those reasons could be applied to him either. His cap hit was minimal. An NFL team does not have to provide any reason to release a player. Period. They merely are required to provide any guaranteed money. It happenes every day sometimes providing head scratching to the max as they're good players.

 

Actually, Rice's 2013 performance provides plenty of reason to cut him if the Ravens chose to go that route. Nothing says it has to be done in any certain time frame, nor that they can't change their minds based on players available. They won't do that because they don't  have to.

 

NFL teams are not required to give cause to cut a player. Period. No matter what the circumstances.

I feel the Ravens would have a defense if it was to go to court:

 

1. Rice was one of the worst RB's last season

2. You could argue that, with the way Lorenzo T. played in the preseason, we had a viable replacement for him

3. After the video came out, you could DEFINITELY argue he may cost the team money by keeping him (heck, look at all the comments from fans threatening to give up their season tickets and threatened to stop buying merchandise if Rice was kept on the team). I would not be surprised if sponsors called the front office and addressed their concerns. By keeping him on the team during that initial firestorm, you could argue that he was hurting the brand.

4. You could make an argument that this was going to be a MAJOR distraction, there was talk from domestic abuse organizations that they were planning to hold protests shortly after that video was released.

5. Past history..........like many have said, teams cut players all the time for less reason (only argument on Pollard was maybe he was a challenge in the locker room for the coaches to deal with) and I have listed four reasons above.

[GrimCoconut]

Unless he has a recording of Steve Bisciotti saying "we will not cut you" or words to that effect in writing - he is pretty much done. All the Ravens have to show - if anything - is a financial loss from the bad PR. Period. If they have to show anything at all.

PR is actually a very viable reason for cutting a player under the current rules.

As for monies owed for the season, that gets tricky. Rice certainly will not receive his pay for his 2 game suspension and since the league had suspended him indefinitely - the Ravens were not required to pay him at the time. Whether he'll get his pay for the season because of the suspension being overturned, that I do not know.

I think exec if he has a recording or something in writing it wouldn't matter unless it was after the second video. You can make a promise to not cut or fire someone but that second video changed things because it exacerbated the problem.

I agree that PR is very viable, especially for an organization such as the Ravens, who are active in the community as well as entertainers.

From what I understand, that two game suspension is legitimized but it's the subsequent punishment after the second video that was reversed. That two game suspension counts and he surely won't get paid for those games. I think he's expecting his money from the other games.

[ravensdfan]

I feel the Ravens would have a defense if it was to go to court:

 

1. Rice was one of the worst RB's last season

2. You could argue that, with the way Lorenzo T. played in the preseason, we had a viable replacement for him

3. After the video came out, you could DEFINITELY argue he may cost the team money by keeping him (heck, look at all the comments from fans threatening to give up their season tickets and threatened to stop buying merchandise if Rice was kept on the team). By keeping him on the team during that initial firestorm, you could argue that he was hurting the brand.

4. Past history..........like many have said, teams cut players all the time for less reason (only argument on Pollard was maybe he was a challenge in the locker room for the coaches to deal with) and I have listed three reasons above.

 

Agreed but as I stated above, he might be due money for this season. Not sure on that one.

[Willbacker]

cutting pollard made the raven gain 1 mil in cap in 2013.

cutting rice lost the ravens 4.75 in 2014 and  9.5 mil in 2015 lol

 

how can you argue they are similiar?

 

a NFL team does not publicly have to state why they cut players, in court however they will have to provide 1 when ask.

 

if you think the ravens can go in court and say we do it all the time i dont have to give you a reason , i bet the judge will be really amused lol.

 

i doubt you are that naieve into thinking there isent a reason for every cut made.

 

just because teams dont come out and tell you the reason every time they cut someone doesent mean there isent 1.

 

they are bussiness and every decision made has to have some ground on why that decision is made.

 

They have no obligation to share it but that doesent mean there aint 1 lol

The problem is Rice did do something wrong(that'll be their reason in court) and the Ravens chose to cut him for that. Doesn't have to make sense capwise.

[rmcjacket23]

Agreed but as I stated above, he might be due money for this season. Not sure on that one.

I believe that's all his grievance is related to... his unpaid salary for this season. Certainly he would have no shot of suing for future earnings, nor do I think any lawyer would actually take that case anyway.

[ravensdfan]

I think exec if he has a recording or something in writing it wouldn't matter unless it was after the second video. You can make a promise to not cut or fire someone but that second video changed things because it exacerbated the problem.

I agree that PR is very viable, especially for an organization such as the Ravens, who are active in the community as well as entertainers.

From what I understand, that two game suspension is legitimized but it's the subsequent punishment after the second video that was reversed. That two game suspension counts and he surely won't get paid for those games. I think he's expecting his money from the other games.

 

This seasons games would be covered by the NFL contract with the players' union. However it is handled when any player is cut during the season would apply I would think. If Rice is filing wrongful termination, then he is going after all salary due him until the end of his contract. Two different things.

 

The Ravens can certainly argue damages based on the video and the fallout - that would be no different than companies dropping him as a spokesman.