Vent/Discussion: New Orleans Saints

[ravensdfan]

A ton of that came in the first half (over 300) and in garbage time (probably close to 85). I was referring to the second half 

so Pees is golden if he gets the defense to play well for one half?

 

The defense is playing better - but Pees still goes soft and those 3 man rushes were riduclous in obvious passing situations.

[BmoreBird22]

so Pees is golden if he gets the defense to play well for one half?

 

The defense is playing better - but Pees still goes soft and those 3 man rushes were riduclous in obvious passing situations.

He blitzed quite a bit in the second half and uses plenty of four man rushes. The Ravens got a tremendous amount of pressure routinely.

I think it was a golden game for Pees because the players executed, mainly with tackling. When you fail to tackle in his scheme, it burns you. When the players tackled and didn't allow YAC, we all saw how effective the scheme becomes. But hey, Pees honestly can't do much for poor pursuit angles (Morgan run) and miscommunications (Morgan long pass, Graham touchdown), which is where a lot of the damage was felt. Those two plays alone accounted for about 130 of the Saints offensive yardage

[The Mom Gene]

so Pees is golden if he gets the defense to play well for one half?

 

The defense is playing better - but Pees still goes soft and those 3 man rushes were riduclous in obvious passing situations.

You know, the players gotta play....  It's easy to blame Pees.....

He can't go out there and do it for them.

[BmoreBird22]

You know, the players gotta play....  It's easy to blame Pees.....

He can't go out there and do it for them.

That's what I was just saying: The biggest part of Pees defense is that players must tackle or it leads to big gains. When the players went out and tackled, they balled out

[BmoreBird22]

I do agree that Webb is getting beat deep on go patterns too often, but the one early in the game is almost entire on Will Hill.

 

Frankly, in most situations, you would expect a WR to get at least a step or two on a corner if he's running a post or a sideline go route, just based on technique and speed alone.

 

But Will Hill completely misplayed that long pass early in the game. He's got the deep middle as his assignment, and he started in the right direction, but for some reason bit down on the post cut thinking that the WR was going to stop. He completely guessed wrong on the anticipation and it burned us.

 

Hill was great in coverage on Graham and in run support, but he still wasn't particularly great with his deep assignments at FS, which can lead to much bigger problems if not corrected.

I definitely wouldn't expect a receiver to have a step or two on the corner if they're playing with proper technique and awareness, especially not for someone like Webb who may not be as fast after two ACL tears. You have got to have incredible makeup speed (Patrick Peterson) if you're going to gamble like that.

However, I was reading that Hill did bite down on the underneath and did blow the assignment on that particular play, so that could very well be the reason that Webb was so slow to flip his hips and get up field. In that case, I don't put the blame on him after looking it all over. That's really the only notable play I can think of from that night that Webb was involved in coverage wise

[ravensdfan]

You know, the players gotta play....  It's easy to blame Pees.....

He can't go out there and do it for them.

That's true too but the players aren't dialing up soft coverage, 10 yds off their man and deciding to only rush 3 on obvious passing downs - one down in the red zone with a smaller field to cover. That's coming from Pees.

 

The bottom line is we have invested too many top draft picks and there is too much talent on this defense overall for us to be giving up 400 and 500 yd games. That comes from a lack of something at the top.

[Guest I-70WestRaven]

Something else he was really good with was beating the blitz too.  I just rewatched the NFL Network highlights and on the touchdown throw I didn't see this the first time because they were so focused on Steve Smith catching the ball, but Flacco got that ball out with a free blitzer coming dead at him unblocked.    How the heck he got that ball 20 yards downfield to that exact spot is crazy.

 

I'm really hoping this rhythm passing mode Kubiak is getting Joe into continues, because it can be very effective.

Me too, it really looked good to see a 5 step drop and the ball was out. Along with an effective run game it really was awesome to watch it click!

[rmcjacket23]

That's true too but the players aren't dialing up soft coverage, 10 yds off their man and deciding to only rush 3 on obvious passing downs - one down in the red zone with a smaller field to cover. That's coming from Pees.

 

The bottom line is we have invested too many top draft picks and there is too much talent on this defense overall for us to be giving up 400 and 500 yd games. That comes from a lack of something at the top.

And I would agree... if all the talent we have were actually playing and playing well.

 

Realistically, we have 2-3 very good pass rushers. There's barely nobody who actually plays DL that is an exceptional pass rusher, so on obvious passing downs, it doesn't do them a ton of good to rush when they practically never get there.

 

Our linebackers are OK in coverage, but not great, and you'll see most coverage linebackers are going to be in somewhat of a zone or off coverage on an obvious passing down anyway.

 

Obviously, the secondary isn't well equipped to play a ton of man coverage, particularly when you consider how poor our safeties have been playing. If you had Jimmy Smith + Asa + a healthy Webb + current Will Hill + a SS that can literally do anything well on the field, then you're talking about a very talented group.

 

The fact that we've invested draft picks doesn't really change anything, because if they aren't playing well, its doesn't really matter where or when they were drafted.

[BmoreBird22]

That's true too but the players aren't dialing up soft coverage, 10 yds off their man and deciding to only rush 3 on obvious passing downs - one down in the red zone with a smaller field to cover. That's coming from Pees.

 

The bottom line is we have invested too many top draft picks and there is too much talent on this defense overall for us to be giving up 400 and 500 yd games. That comes from a lack of something at the top.

The Ravens honestly rarely rush three. They quite often will rush four or five. Again, he blitzed quite heavily in the second half and the Ravens generated lots of pressure in this game. Playing soft man coverage isn't a bad thing. Just, try to think of who on the team plays press man. It's Jimmy, right? Now, where would you rank Jimmy in the list of NFL corners? Top 10 or 5 most likely. Now, where would you put Webb, Gorrer, and Levine, two of whom were undrafted and one of whom was a converted safety making his second start? Not very high, I would think. There's a level of trust that comes with playing press man coverage, and those three haven't earned it. Pees will allow press man to happen when it's earned, like how Jimmy earned it. 

 

Who cares if they gave up 400 or 500 yards, many of which we can probably agree came from the referees making blown calls (Joe Morgan's pass was immediately after the phantom illegal contact and the Kenny Still's catch out of bounds). Along with the reverse, that Stewart royally screwed up, those accounted for over 150 of the Saints' yards, I believe. Then, factor in that the Ravens literally wanted the Saints to catch the ball in bounds when they were up by 14 accounting for about 80, 85 yards. If you think about it, three plays and a meaningless drive really accounted for almost half of their yards. 

 

I find it very impressive that Pees has done so much with a patchwork secondary, the main culprit of the yardage allowed. I mean, seriously, you're saying a lot of high picks have been invested in the defense, but where? Lately, up front, and are the Ravens having issues stopping the run or pressuring the passer? No, not at all. The biggest issues are in the secondary where the Ravens are using a new player coming off suspension (who's played really well, I must say), a player coming off two ACL tears and a back injury, and two UDFA's. 

[Inqui]

Agreed, What the heck? is wrong with the Refs? They have been consistently screwing Baltimore!

Every fan of every team thinks the refs constantly screw them. Spend 20 minutes in the Broncos forum and you'll see exactly what I mean.

[DomMcRaven]

The Ravens honestly rarely rush three. They quite often will rush four or five. Again, he blitzed quite heavily in the second half and the Ravens generated lots of pressure in this game. Playing soft man coverage isn't a bad thing. Just, try to think of who on the team plays press man. It's Jimmy, right? Now, where would you rank Jimmy in the list of NFL corners? Top 10 or 5 most likely. Now, where would you put Webb, Gorrer, and Levine, two of whom were undrafted and one of whom was a converted safety making his second start? Not very high, I would think. There's a level of trust that comes with playing press man coverage, and those three haven't earned it. Pees will allow press man to happen when it's earned, like how Jimmy earned it. 

 

Who cares if they gave up 400 or 500 yards, many of which we can probably agree came from the referees making blown calls (Joe Morgan's pass was immediately after the phantom illegal contact and the Kenny Still's catch out of bounds). Along with the reverse, that Stewart royally screwed up, those accounted for over 150 of the Saints' yards, I believe. Then, factor in that the Ravens literally wanted the Saints to catch the ball in bounds when they were up by 14 accounting for about 80, 85 yards. If you think about it, three plays and a meaningless drive really accounted for almost half of their yards. 

 

I find it very impressive that Pees has done so much with a patchwork secondary, the main culprit of the yardage allowed. I mean, seriously, you're saying a lot of high picks have been invested in the defense, but where? Lately, up front, and are the Ravens having issues stopping the run or pressuring the passer? No, not at all. The biggest issues are in the secondary where the Ravens are using a new player coming off suspension (who's played really well, I must say), a player coming off two ACL tears and a back injury, and two UDFA's. 

Excellent points. I've always felt that we're a solidified secondary (and perhaps a long-term playmaking pass-catcher) away from being not only divisional winners (even though we're in good position to win the division), but legitimate contenders.

[ravensdfan]

The Ravens honestly rarely rush three. They quite often will rush four or five. Again, he blitzed quite heavily in the second half and the Ravens generated lots of pressure in this game. Playing soft man coverage isn't a bad thing. Just, try to think of who on the team plays press man. It's Jimmy, right? Now, where would you rank Jimmy in the list of NFL corners? Top 10 or 5 most likely. Now, where would you put Webb, Gorrer, and Levine, two of whom were undrafted and one of whom was a converted safety making his second start? Not very high, I would think. There's a level of trust that comes with playing press man coverage, and those three haven't earned it. Pees will allow press man to happen when it's earned, like how Jimmy earned it. 

 

Who cares if they gave up 400 or 500 yards, many of which we can probably agree came from the referees making blown calls (Joe Morgan's pass was immediately after the phantom illegal contact and the Kenny Still's catch out of bounds). Along with the reverse, that Stewart royally screwed up, those accounted for over 150 of the Saints' yards, I believe. Then, factor in that the Ravens literally wanted the Saints to catch the ball in bounds when they were up by 14 accounting for about 80, 85 yards. If you think about it, three plays and a meaningless drive really accounted for almost half of their yards.

 

I find it very impressive that Pees has done so much with a patchwork secondary, the main culprit of the yardage allowed. I mean, seriously, you're saying a lot of high picks have been invested in the defense, but where? Lately, up front, and are the Ravens having issues stopping the run or pressuring the passer? No, not at all. The biggest issues are in the secondary where the Ravens are using a new player coming off suspension (who's played really well, I must say), a player coming off two ACL tears and a back injury, and two UDFA's. 

I'd hoped to see the last of the 3 man rush when Mattison rolled out of town and you're correct that we haven't seen that much of it. To me we shouldn't see any of it. Especially down by the goal line with a smaller field. Mind boggling coverage call that one.

 

You'd be singing a different tune about that so-called "meaningless" drive if that onsides kick had been successful. Pees ran that last drive like we were up by 3 scores. We weren't and it allowed them to draw within one. That is poor coaching.

 

As for your last paragraph, my my my the double standards around here.

[HoldingCall]

77rus, on 26 Nov 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

And yet, we won our last SB with a negative differential iirc

Perhaps they were negative during the regular season in which they barely made it into the post season. They were not negative during the playoffs run, if so they would not have won at that level. At any rate, 2012 was the Raven's year. 

 

The win record of the teams this year, though not absolute, show that turnovers definitely helps. Packers +15 and Patriots +11 amount to having many additional offensive plays and scoring opportunities.

[BmoreBird22]

I'd hoped to see the last of the 3 man rush when Mattison rolled out of town and you're correct that we haven't seen that much of it. To me we shouldn't see any of it. Especially down by the goal line with a smaller field. Mind boggling coverage call that one.

 

You'd be singing a different tune about that so-called "meaningless" drive if that onsides kick had been successful. Pees ran that last drive like we were up by 3 scores. We weren't and it allowed them to draw within one. That is poor coaching.

 

As for your last paragraph, my my my the double standards around here.

I mean, honestly, the Ravens do rarely use a three man rush. It is just about always a four or five man rush. They aren't too good about going for six plus, but I don't mind because Doom and McPhee are so good. Dropping three in the goal line against a pass heavy team doesn't bother me because more than likely, Pees is dialing up zone coverage that has been effective for most of the year.

 

I don't actually know that we'd be "singing a different tune". Who's to say the Saints score with about 40 seconds to go? Given how well the defense played for the second half, it's completely conceivable to think the Saints do not score a touchdown, especially given they'd have to pretty much use the sidelines solely, which limits what exactly they can call to move the ball around. That is not poor coaching at all. That drive took over 2 minutes with about 2:40 on the clock. What if the Ravens had played super aggressive and then the Saints had gotten another long play, such as the Joe Morgan plays? Would that be poor coaching to be so aggressive? 

 

So, I shouldn't expect more out of a front seven loaded with several first rounders than I do out of a secondary featuring three UDFA's? Makes total sense.

[HoldingCall]

You know, the players gotta play....  It's easy to blame Pees.....

He can't go out there and do it for them.

So true!

[The Mom Gene]

That's true too but the players aren't dialing up soft coverage, 10 yds off their man and deciding to only rush 3 on obvious passing downs - one down in the red zone with a smaller field to cover. That's coming from Pees.

 

The bottom line is we have invested too many top draft picks and there is too much talent on this defense overall for us to be giving up 400 and 500 yd games. That comes from a lack of something at the top.

Not necessarily... When we are rushing 3 in pass situations, it's because our back end is weak...  You're sending your guys like Doom, Nagata, and Suggs...  With LB's covering for short passes or slants and screens...  Pees has been called one of the best in the league by more than just Jon Gruden...  Truth be told???  Sometimes offenses do play against our coverage???  That's what game planning defenses does.  You're smarter than that ravensdfan...  You watch these games like all of us do.. 

 

Secondary Injuries have KILLED US.

Webb was not back

Asa Jackson... out...

Jimmy Smith... out...

Corey Graham...  Gone...  among others.

 

Safeties have been an issue since Reed and Ihedigbo left...

 

Our entire secondary is one HUGE piece meal....  Where is the "too much money"...  Webby only, and he's our only stable piece if you discount Will Hill...  who we got and he had to sit for the first 6 or 8 games....

 

And all of this.......  Considering we come from a Pass-happy League...  That can shred a secondary like ours... easily.

 

Like I said....  You're smarter than that....  that is this team's ONLY weakness...  IMO.

[ravensdfan]

I mean, honestly, the Ravens do rarely use a three man rush. It is just about always a four or five man rush. They aren't too good about going for six plus, but I don't mind because Doom and McPhee are so good. Dropping three in the goal line against a pass heavy team doesn't bother me because more than likely, Pees is dialing up zone coverage that has been effective for most of the year.

 

I don't actually know that we'd be "singing a different tune". Who's to say the Saints score with about 40 seconds to go? Given how well the defense played for the second half, it's completely conceivable to think the Saints do not score a touchdown, especially given they'd have to pretty much use the sidelines solely, which limits what exactly they can call to move the ball around. That is not poor coaching at all. That drive took over 2 minutes with about 2:40 on the clock. What if the Ravens had played super aggressive and then the Saints had gotten another long play, such as the Joe Morgan plays? Would that be poor coaching to be so aggressive? 

 

So, I shouldn't expect more out of a front seven loaded with several first rounders than I do out of a secondary featuring three UDFA's? Makes total sense.

No, not the double standard I was talking about.

 

I don't know why it is always let them roll like a hot knife through butter, or send the house. There is a middle ground there. He is way too soft with his coverages when we take any kind of lead. Not saying you have to send 6 and leave no one to cover but just letting them nickel and dime their way down the field isn't necessary either. I've seen him take such an approach with plenty of time left on the clock as well.

 

He did better in the 2nd half no doubt, it just isn't necessary to lay down completely for that last drive, which is what he did.

[ravensdfan]

Not necessarily... When we are rushing 3 in pass situations, it's because our back end is weak...  You're sending your guys like Doom, Nagata, and Suggs...  With LB's covering for short passes or slants and screens...  Pees has been called one of the best in the league by more than just Jon Gruden...  Truth be told???  Sometimes offenses do play against our coverage???  That's what game planning defenses does.  You're smarter than that ravensdfan...  You watch these games like all of us do.. 

 

Secondary Injuries have KILLED US.

Webb was not back

Asa Jackson... out...

Jimmy Smith... out...

Corey Graham...  Gone...  among others.

 

Safeties have been an issue since Reed and Ihedigbo left...

 

Our entire secondary is one HUGE piece meal....  Where is the "too much money"...  Webby only, and he's our only stable piece if you discount Will Hill...  who we got and he had to sit for the first 6 or 8 games....

 

And all of this.......  Considering we come from a Pass-happy League...  That can shred a secondary like ours... easily.

 

Like I said....  You're smarter than that....  that is this team's ONLY weakness...  IMO.

ah Ihedigbo. I miss him. Not a star but solid for sure. Thought he was underrated when he was here.

 

I know our secondary isn't going to put fear into the hearts of many - and sometimes it is obviously on the players, like Stewart in the Saints' game. But sometimes, it is Pees complete lack of any creativity. It isn't even necessarily how many he rushes or doesn't rush but the ho hum manner in which it is done.

 

It is just like Cam on offense. If everyone knows what you're doing by the way you line up, so does the opposing QB and can chance the play at the LOS.

 

It is really what he lacks completely. Creativity - though he did do better with that in the 2nd half.

[stampedehero]

Monroe...we pay too much money for this to start becoming a trend.

Brooks. Ugh.

Refs.....go far far away.

Your three are all on the menu.    Brooks fell for dramatic effect,eh?    That looked awlful.

Refs gave us 3 as well.   However the two 3rd and long penalties gave them scores. 

[MTRavensFan]

ah Ihedigbo. I miss him. Not a star but solid for sure. Thought he was underrated when he was here.

 

Absolutely. Not just a solid player, but a good man, and a leader in the locker room as well.

They're loving him in Detroit.

[stampedehero]

Spagnoula is our secondary coach  Lets pass his name around for the next few days.  Who likes what he has done, not done enough or hasn't done yet?

 

  My opinion are good favors for Will Hill, Gorrer and Levine.  Webb improved, Brooks went backwards (bad acting in the endzone) and Elam better than usual.

[stampedehero]

Absolutely. Not just a solid player, but a good man, and a leader in the locker room as well.

They're loving him in Detroit.

Ihedigbo is a solid player that Detroit is fortunate to have.  After all he went through our system and was galvanized by our D attitude. old school  

[codizzle]

And I would agree... if all the talent we have were actually playing and playing well.

Realistically, we have 2-3 very good pass rushers. There's barely nobody who actually plays DL that is an exceptional pass rusher, so on obvious passing downs, it doesn't do them a ton of good to rush when they practically never get there.

Our linebackers are OK in coverage, but not great, and you'll see most coverage linebackers are going to be in somewhat of a zone or off coverage on an obvious passing down anyway.

Obviously, the secondary isn't well equipped to play a ton of man coverage, particularly when you consider how poor our safeties have been playing. If you had Jimmy Smith + Asa + a healthy Webb + current Will Hill + a SS that can literally do anything well on the field, then you're talking about a very talented group.

The fact that we've invested draft picks doesn't really change anything, because if they aren't playing well, its doesn't really matter where or when they were drafted.

McPhee is an exceptional pass rusher

We can play a decent amount of man considering. Gorrer plays man and webb is definitely capable. Put Elam in the slot and he can man up

[beanfigger]

Every fan of every team thinks the refs constantly screw them. Spend 20 minutes in the Broncos forum and you'll see exactly what I mean.

This is why I typically decide to complain about specific bad calls and not the refs in general. It usually evens out. This game was really rough, though. We had every single call go against us, at least during the first half. Every close penalty went their way and every review ended up in their favor, regardless of the call on the field. Pretty bad stuff.

[Underdogsontop!]

I saw him miss a tackle but that Td pass was all Brook's fault. Elam played it pretty darn well and drove the receiver right to the waiting safety who should have had an easy interception or blasted the receiver.

Yea well he's been leading the league in miss tackles, and 1 more this week is 1 more too many. Especially for a 1st round pick..... Hopefully he comes around soon cause I'm sick of seeing him missing tackles.

[PurpleCity5]

Every fan of every team thinks the refs constantly screw them. Spend 20 minutes in the Broncos forum and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Yeah, I guess you're right but gosh, those calls just made me pissed, especially since the Saints scored on it. 

[Tru11]

ah Ihedigbo. I miss him. Not a star but solid for sure. Thought he was underrated when he was here.

 

I know our secondary isn't going to put fear into the hearts of many - and sometimes it is obviously on the players, like Stewart in the Saints' game. But sometimes, it is Pees complete lack of any creativity. It isn't even necessarily how many he rushes or doesn't rush but the ho hum manner in which it is done.

 

It is just like Cam on offense. If everyone knows what you're doing by the way you line up, so does the opposing QB and can chance the play at the LOS.

 

It is really what he lacks completely. Creativity - though he did do better with that in the 2nd half.

 

Do you have any examples on how pees can be creative with this team?

 

seems to me we lack alot of all round players but we do have specialist in certain things.

 

suggs can set the edge and rush the passer but he isent the greatest cover guy.

doom can rush the passer and thats about it.

upshaw can set the edge and have some cover skills but he isent a good pass rusher.

mcphee is a pass rusher.

elam seems to be a run defender.

stewart im not sure what he can do lol

corners are all decend at best.

dliners are pretty much run stuffers.

ngata seems to be the only1 versatile .

daryl smith is decend in coverage but not really that good in run defense.

mosley has the potential to do it all but he is still a rookie.

 

taking these guys away from what they can do and ask them to do things they arent good at is a recipe for dissaster.

[77rus]

Perhaps they were negative during the regular season in which they barely made it into the post season. They were not negative during the playoffs run, if so they would not have won at that level. At any rate, 2012 was the Raven's year. 

 

The win record of the teams this year, though not absolute, show that turnovers definitely helps. Packers +15 and Patriots +11 amount to having many additional offensive plays and scoring opportunities.

Oh I agree, turnovers and takeaways really help. But apparently it's not uncommon for teams with negative differential to win. I was listening to some sports show on the radio some time ago and they were discussing turnovers and talking about SB winners, and the host sounded really surprised that there are actually quite a few teams that won it all with negative differential.

Just an interesting tidbit, that's all.

[Dfence4champs2052]

Lots of discussion in here. I just stopped in to give props to everyone who was able to travel down to the game. I traveled for the first time to an Ravens away game and it was amazing. So much black and purple. We definitely travel well. The Orioles OOOOO was loud during the anthem lol. I laughed loud when I heard it. Great win!!!

[Militant X 1]

I need to see our secondary get more picks when that ball is in the air and less of them giving up big plays over the top.