11/4/14 Roster Moves (merged)

[GrimCoconut]

And Prince.

Yeah but I know Prince is injured. I was referring to a CB who isn't injured. I don't think DRC is hurt but I'm not sure

[ravensdfan]

Im glad you guys are giving the F.O. credit for these moves......however, im not.

They are trying to save face after failing to draft or sign quality players at that position for a couple years now.

Everyone has know the direction this league was taking with emphasis on offense and passing...and even this year they STILL didnt draft a corner in the early rounds.

Theres alot of change this team needs...and scapegoating brown and franks doesnt help it.

 

I hear what you're saying but it isn't scapegoating when it's true. They were both pretty bad.

[Marc2k6]

Not fair at all and completely wrong. First off, Jimmy simply had better physical gifts than Chykie could dream of. His floor was always higher. Second, multiple rookie corners: Jason verrett, kyle fuller, EJ Gaines, Roby, Dontae Johnson, Jimme Ward have played pretty well as rookie this year (Fuller, Verrett, and Gaines playing excellently). Thirdly, one of the reason we limited Jimmy early on wasn't his fault, but the talent above him. We had prime Webb, who played at a Pro Bowl Level and was certainly a top 5-10 CB at that time. We also had Cary Williams, who while prone toi mistakes, was still a solid player. Rookies are going to take time to get used to the league. This rookie corner won't be ask to be the #1, probably not even the #2. 

I feel you on that, I cant see comparing Brown to any of Jimmy Smith's year. Would a rookie struggle at the NFL level? Sure, but with hope of improvement and development which has never happened with Brown.

[berad]

I hear what you're saying but it isn't scapegoating when it's true. They were both pretty bad.

Yup. Both pieces that had not performed and could be easily changed.

[rmcjacket23]

I feel you on that, I cant see comparing Brown to any of Jimmy Smith's year. Would a rookie struggle at the NFL level? Sure, but with hope of improvement and development which has never happened with Brown.

But again, not the point. Read what fans are asking for on these boards... they aren't asking for "hope of improvement and development". They want a guy RIGHT NOW. They don't want a developmental player, even if he does develop into something special, because the fans that want that don't have the patience to wait for it.

 

Hence the reason why I disagree with them...

[BmoreBird22]

They have DRC IIRC. I'm not sure whether he's considered their #1 or #2 since I don't watch them enough.

Amukamara is, when healthy. Now DRC and Bowman, who was once a fifth stringer, are starters

[BmoreBird22]

Except in this season, he would have been asked to be #2, basically for the whole season. Webb missed the first few games, so at the very least that rookie is going to be the 3rd corner, and knowing now that Jimmy and Asa are both out, that makes him the #2 corner. The only way he's not the #2 corner is if you imply that he wouldn't win that spot over somebody like Chykie, in which case you're kind of making my point for me.

 

I specifically went out of my way to mention that its POSSIBLE that we would have gotten a corner who played well, but just like you provided examples of one's that are, I could provide equal number that aren't. Given that Gilbert and Fuller were taken before we even had the chance to take them, I don't consider them options. We could have ended up with a Verrett or Roby, or we could have ended up with a Dennard. You've had guys like Milliner and Hayden from 2013 and Claiborne and Kirkpatrick from 2012 who were first round corners that look horrible at the moment. And Ward isn't a rookie, and he barely played his rookie season to begin with.

 

The reason my comparison is completely fair is because it doesn't matter what Jimmy's floor/ceiling is, nor does it matter what Chykie Brown's floor/ceiling is. Fans on these boards aren't interested in finding a corner who will be good in 2016 or 2017. They want a great corner right now. They want a guy who walks off the bus and dominates. As I stated, finding that in year 1 in the draft is essentially a crap shoot. We found a great corner in round 1, and he didn't become that until year 3.

 

Make no mistake... we probably take a corner high in the draft this coming offseason, he probably is a mediocre or even below average player in his rookie season, and these same fans will then complain that the FO didn't do a good enough job.

Just to set this straight, Jimmie Ward is a rookie and he's been playing his rookie year...

[rmcjacket23]

Just to set this straight, Jimmie Ward is a rookie and he's been playing his rookie year...

Thought he was talking about TJ Ward, my mistake.

[BmoreBird22]

Thought he was talking about TJ Ward, my mistake.

Point still stands that it's very difficult to find rookie corners who actually play well. Verrett has been really good, and while Fuller was really good, he's kinda dropped off. Still wouldn't change taking Mosley for Verrett, Roby, or Dennard.

[GrimCoconut]

You'll very rarely find day one starters at CB in any draft. It took guys like Sherman, Peterson, Smith, etc time to really develop into who they are. Peterson, I recall, was very criticized after his rookie year. Just goes to show how hard it is to transition to the NFL. Anyone we draft next year at CB will very likely be the third guy, rotated in, sit on the bench or a combination of the three. We'll address CB for sure, but it'll be in free agency with a guy on a one year deal or something similar. That's how we address glaring needs--free agency.

I wouldn't trade Mosley for Fuller or Verrett, and I was a major fan of them both coming out and CB is probably my favorite position, right up there with safety. I look at those two positions on the regular every year.

[rmcjacket23]

You'll very rarely find day one starters at CB in any draft. It took guys like Sherman, Peterson, Smith, etc time to really develop into who they are. Peterson, I recall, was very criticized after his rookie year. Just goes to show how hard it is to transition to the NFL. Anyone we draft next year at CB will very likely be the third guy, rotated in, sit on the bench or a combination of the three. We'll address CB for sure, but it'll be in free agency with a guy on a one year deal or something similar. That's how we address glaring needs--free agency.

I wouldn't trade Mosley for Fuller or Verrett, and I was a major fan of them both coming out and CB is probably my favorite position, right up there with safety. I look at those two positions on the regular every year.

With not knowing how FA will go and what will happen with some of our contracts (namely Ngata/Torrey), if I'm the FO, I'm looking for a veteran corner in FA on a shorter deal, and I'm using a top 2-3 round pick on a corner that I think can develop into something special.

 

From a safety perspective, I honestly have no idea what the FO can do. I suppose they can look to FA for a veteran again, but a high quality player will cost a lot, and I don't think the safety market will be as good as it was the last few years. Drafting a real FS seems like a logical approach, but we thought we did that with Brooks already, and drafting another SS early would essentially acknowledge that Elam is in trouble. I'm not opposed to that, but I don't think they'll go that direction.

 

I think receiver will be a key need, though I think it will take a significant back seat to the secondary.

[BmoreBird22]

From a safety perspective, I honestly have no idea what the FO can do. I suppose they can look to FA for a veteran again, but a high quality player will cost a lot, and I don't think the safety market will be as good as it was the last few years. Drafting a real FS seems like a logical approach, but we thought we did that with Brooks already, and drafting another SS early would essentially acknowledge that Elam is in trouble. I'm not opposed to that, but I don't think they'll go that direction.

Will Hill is a RFA, so tender him and hammer out a long term deal seems ideal. Hopefully Brooks continues to improve

[GrimCoconut]

With not knowing how FA will go and what will happen with some of our contracts (namely Ngata/Torrey), if I'm the FO, I'm looking for a veteran corner in FA on a shorter deal, and I'm using a top 2-3 round pick on a corner that I think can develop into something special.

From a safety perspective, I honestly have no idea what the FO can do. I suppose they can look to FA for a veteran again, but a high quality player will cost a lot, and I don't think the safety market will be as good as it was the last few years. Drafting a real FS seems like a logical approach, but we thought we did that with Brooks already, and drafting another SS early would essentially acknowledge that Elam is in trouble. I'm not opposed to that, but I don't think they'll go that direction.

I think receiver will be a key need, though I think it will take a significant back seat to the secondary.

I agree with everything you said here. If you look at our history, you'll see we primarily take CB early in the draft. In fact, two positions we don't like to address after the top three rounds are CB and OLB/pass rusher. The position we've drafted the most in the first round throughout our history is CB, and those three were great players in Smith, Starks and McAlister.

I think we'll target a guy like Tillman or perhaps a Cromartie or maybe a cut veteran. I'm not sure on who could be cut, as it's very early for that. I doubt we'll get a Brandon Flowers or a Chris Harris Jr. I do agree that we'll likely sign a veteran CB and draft a CB high and go from there.

On the subject of safety, it's an interesting situation. I think Brooks can play either safety responsibility, so a FS in the draft like Drummond, Tartt or Gerod Hollimam are certainly possibilities. We've seen that we'll take players who are great regardless of how stacked we may be. Considering how Harbaugh called out the safeties, I wouldn't rule out a high pick used once again on the position.

A guy I think we might target in free agency for FS is Rahim Moore. I recall us liking him in the draft and there's no way the Broncos can keep him when they have Harris Jr and the Thomases to retain.

[GrimCoconut]

Will Hill is a RFA, so tender him and hammer out a long term deal seems ideal. Hopefully Brooks continues to improve

I'm not fond of extending Hill yet. He hasn't yet proves he deserves any kind of extension I'd assume he'd want and with his suspension history it makes me nervous to rely on him. If Brooks or Elam improve, then that changes things.

[rmcjacket23]

Will Hill is a RFA, so tender him and hammer out a long term deal seems ideal. Hopefully Brooks continues to improve

I've got no issue bringing him back as an RFA, but he hasn't perfomed nearly well enough to get a long-term deal from us.

[BmoreBird22]

I'm not fond of extending Hill yet. He hasn't yet proves he deserves any kind of extension I'd assume he'd want and with his suspension history it makes me nervous to rely on him. If Brooks or Elam improve, then that changes things.

 

 

I've got no issue bringing him back as an RFA, but he hasn't perfomed nearly well enough to get a long-term deal from us.

He's one game of serious action into being a Raven, so I'm more looking forward to the rest of the games, especially with a few gunslinging quarterbacks coming up. I think he's been the Ravens best safety so far, and while he hasn't been outstanding, he's been solid. I'm obviously wanting to see the rest of the season play out, but so far, he's probably the best option.

[GrimCoconut]

He's one game of serious action into being a Raven, so I'm more looking forward to the rest of the games, especially with a few gunslinging quarterbacks coming up. I think he's been the Ravens best safety so far, and while he hasn't been outstanding, he's been solid. I'm obviously wanting to see the rest of the season play out, but so far, he's probably the best option.

Yeah I get what you're saying it's just I'd rather him receive and play out his tender over giving him an extension unless that extension comes at a very reasonable price and for a short contract. A bad contract can really set you back. I just need to see more, personally. He hasn't been bad. I just think he might want more than a cheap deal and he probably deserves more too if he plays up to last year.

[BmoreBird22]

Yeah I get what you're saying it's just I'd rather him receive and play out his tender over giving him an extension unless that extension comes at a very reasonable price and for a short contract. A bad contract can really set you back. I just need to see more, personally. He hasn't been bad. I just think he might want more than a cheap deal and he probably deserves more too if he plays up to last year.

The problem I have with letting him play the tender out is that he could play himself out of the Ravens price range. They'd be really hurting themselves if they find they really want to keep Will Hill, but let him play out his tender and he signs somewhere else.

[GrimCoconut]

The problem I have with letting him play the tender out is that he could play himself out of the Ravens price range. They'd be really hurting themselves if they find they really want to keep Will Hill, but let him play out his tender and he signs somewhere else.

It's certainly a risk-reward scenario, but offering him a long-term deal would be very contingent upon the guaranteed money as well as the base salary. He hasn't been the most reliable player in terms of actually playing football, getting suspended multiple times to the point where he is on his 6-game suspension. That could get him suspended for an entire year, which would really put us in a bind if we contribute major money to him. It's really hard to say and debate this without him playing out the year, so I'll likely stop until the end of the year at the very earliest. He's definitely someone to watch, and what you say is very true. I'd just rather extend guys like Jimmy Smith, Tucker, and others well before him. 

[rmcjacket23]

The problem I have with letting him play the tender out is that he could play himself out of the Ravens price range. They'd be really hurting themselves if they find they really want to keep Will Hill, but let him play out his tender and he signs somewhere else.

Yeah, but its just going to be hard to judge him for a long-term contract based on what essentially amounts to half a season. If he improves, then I think they could broach him about maybe a 2-3 year deal at a reasonable price, because I think Hill knows the likelihood of him getting even good money in FA with his track record of suspensions is minimal.

[Drew P]

It's certainly a risk-reward scenario, but offering him a long-term deal would be very contingent upon the guaranteed money as well as the base salary. He hasn't been the most reliable player in terms of actually playing football, getting suspended multiple times to the point where he is on his 6-game suspension. That could get him suspended for an entire year, which would really put us in a bind if we contribute major money to him. It's really hard to say and debate this without him playing out the year, so I'll likely stop until the end of the year at the very earliest. He's definitely someone to watch, and what you say is very true. I'd just rather extend guys like Jimmy Smith, Tucker, and others well before him. 

 

Yeah not a large enough sample size to see what he can do he hasnt played many snaps for whatever reason and the last game he was a non factor BUT neither was the entire secondary