11/4/14 Roster Moves (merged)

[gabefergy]

If these corners can just play decent press coverage then we're in good shape. Our defensive front is elite, but it's hard to get sacks when our corners, other than Jimmy, are playing off the wide outs... Seriously??? Why do we play off man coverage on short downs only to get beat for the first by a hitch???

Because the CBs are terrible and would get abused if they tried to press.

[The Raven]

Because the CBs are terrible and would get abused if they tried to press.

 

But smashmouth Ravens football rah rah defense

[The Raven]

Maybe I'm looking too far into this, but I feel like the team's willingness to replace two corners at once indicates a move toward man coverage. Zone requires more chemistry and communication, while man coverage doesn't require so much. 

 

Again, probably looking too far into it, but we'll see. 

[ravens533]

I remember another mid season when we were above 500 but everyone felt we needed more. Harbs made a bold move then as well. If I am not mistaken that was 2013. Can I hope we have even half as much success with this move?

[BSHU_Miami]

Maybe I'm looking too far into this, but I feel like the team's willingness to replace two corners at once indicates a move toward man coverage. Zone requires more chemistry and communication, while man coverage doesn't require so much. 

 

Again, probably looking too far into it, but we'll see. 

We can only hope. I'm not saying its going to be bbetter, but it's going to be different and thats all I want to see.

[ravensdfan]

Pees plays plenty of man, and the move to cut Chykie wasn't surprising, and considering that Gorrer hasn't really played poorly this season, he's an upgrade over Franks in all likelihood, considering he got worked in all his games here

 

Yes, press coverage is what I was referencing - not playing 10 to 15 yds off.

[redrum52]

But smashmouth Ravens football rah rah defense

Lmao. I concur. Brilliant.

Agreen with what you said about the switch from zone to man. Was thinking that too when the moves were made. In all honesty, they really don't need to be able to cover that long back there. Having our guys play 10 yards isn't helping anyone especially when we're still getting torched.

Also doesn't help that we play off and can't seem to tackle.

[hn68wb4]

i'm still not sold on Gorrer as any sort of upgrade but he's not a downgrade. Just people don't put unreal expectations on him, if you're looking for him to come in and solve our problems then you're going to be disappointed. He's just the stop gap for next week against the Titans, then hopefully Jimmy will be back after the bye and it won't matter. I'm just still iffy with Gorrer coming in and most likely starting next week after just joining the team, thats a tall order for any CB but especially one that shouldn't be starting for any team. We just need him to perform for one game as the #2, its good the Titans are a bad passing team, then just perform as the #3 until Asa comes back, we don't need a superstar, you just need to be better than Franks

[BmoreBird22]

Yes, press coverage is what I was referencing - not playing 10 to 15 yds off.

That requires a lot of faith in the ability of your corners to not get beat. Considering Chykie was a healthy scratch for the majority of the season and Franks wasn't on the team (and any team) for (7?) Weeks, it's not like he was very good. Ever noticed how Jimmy will play press man for 60%-75% of the snaps he plays, but the ones that we as fans classify as bad (Brown and Jacobs) don't? The corners could get abused in press man

[ravefan52]

I hate to say it, but Ozzie messed up bad at addressing the secondary, specially CB. We had to cut a starter in Franks. When you're turning to cutting a starting player because he's so bad, that's just sad. Everyone knew we needed help there, but Ozzie didn't see the value in drafting one and didn't like the price to sign a decent one. It gets to point where sometimes you have to go away from BPA and getting great prices for FA's. Doesn't matter how good our front 7 is if out secondary is absolutely terrible.

[jazz1988]

Also think some fans may be overreacting to these moves anyway. It does show that at least the FO/coaching staff is aware of Chykie and Franks struggles, but keep in mind that those same guys (Franks in particular) were competing with guys like Jacobs for a corner spot in training camp/preseason, and Brown won that job. That tells me something alone.

 

As fans have begun to realize, there almost certainly isn't going to be a player that the Ravens sign, promote, etc. in 2014 that is going to immediately shift this secondary into something much better. We MIGHT be able to find better players, but its not like Gorrer or Jacobs are going to be Jimmy Smith or even Webb-level players most likely.

 

Its going to take a lot more than just a couple of FA/PS signings to make this secondary a lot better. As Harbaugh already referenced, at least one or preferably two of these safeties (where I think the bigger weakness is) is going to have to start playing much better and much more consistent. That includes fan-favorite (including myself) Will Hill, who was pretty awful against Pittsburgh.

 

I think there's a good explanation or reasonable answer why Chykie Brown won the job. I believe Brown was The Ravens ideal number 3 cornerback because he had all the physical tools to be  a press man cornerback in which they could have on the outside with Jimmy Smith while moving Webb  to the  nickel when opposing offenses go to their 3 wide receiver sets or more.

 

Franks and Jacob indeed look better than Chykie Brown but Franks isn't a press man cornerback  and Jacob was undrafted rookie in which they may have felt wasn't  ready until now. Overall The Ravens just really liked Chykie Brown and expected him to be pretty good this year and I think there expectations for him is  the reason why we didn't draft and cornerback in this year draft and the reason why we didn't go after better veteran cornerbacks when they were available  in he free agent market.

[KnowNoLimits]

Because the CBs are terrible and would get abused if they tried to press.

Understandable. I just trust our front to get to the Qb that much... I'd prefer to press almost every snap.

[gabefergy]

Understandable. I just trust our front to get to the Qb that much... I'd prefer to press almost every snap.

That's also understandable, but if a CB lines up to press and fails he's now beat over the top instead of potentially getting beat for a short gain.

[The Raven]

Lmao. I concur. Brilliant.

Agreen with what you said about the switch from zone to man. Was thinking that too when the moves were made. In all honesty, they really don't need to be able to cover that long back there. Having our guys play 10 yards isn't helping anyone especially when we're still getting torched.

Also doesn't help that we play off and can't seem to tackle.

 

Zone coverage and off coverage work best when your corners are smart and capable of making tackles. Ours didn't. Maybe that changes.

 

Also, nobody was afraid of our corners. They'd get the ball out quick, before the pass rush got there. Perhaps, if we do play more press, our pass rush will have more time to get there. 

[GrimCoconut]

I hate to say it, but Ozzie messed up bad at addressing the secondary, specially CB. We had to cut a starter in Franks. When you're turning to cutting a starting player because he's so bad, that's just sad. Everyone knew we needed help there, but Ozzie didn't see the value in drafting one and didn't like the price to sign a decent one. It gets to point where sometimes you have to go away from BPA and getting great prices for FA's. Doesn't matter how good our front 7 is if out secondary is absolutely terrible.

I think it's fair to question some our moves, specifically certain moves we didn't make or seemingly didn't try hard enough. The two I'd suggest are Flowers and Graham. It's hard to truly say we failed on Flowers, because you have to wonder if he wanted to come here. Perhaps he wanted to remain in the West.

On the subject of Graham, well, I do think that was a mistake. There's no doubt, and while I know he'll get defended on it, I do think he failed there. I think we could've spent the money we have to Jones to retain Graham, and could've even given him a slight raise over the Bills to retain him even if it's more. I say this because while I'm sure we want to see what we have in guys like Jackson and Brown, there were serious concerns about Webb returning from another injury. These concerns were validated, and they were foreseeable concerns unlike those surrounding Jimmy and Jackson.

With that said, I also can't fault Ozzie too much. I do think it was a stupid idea to restructure Webb, who was injured at the time of his restructure, considering his injury history. That was a dumb move.

I also can't fault Ozzie on drafting CB. This apparently wasn't a very good CB class, which resulted in us not addressing the position.

[GrimCoconut]

That's also understandable, but if a CB lines up to press and fails he's now beat over the top instead of potentially getting beat for a short gain.

To add onto this point, combining that with our rather poor safety covering the center field, that would've resulted in some very big gains and probably points.

[allblackraven]

We cannot be worse off after these changes considering the way Franks and Brown played.

 

It'll do for Titans game for sure, then we should collectively pray for Jimmy Smith to get fully healthy for NO. I will also pray for DC to never, ever again think about Jimmy playing close to the scrimmage line.

[I AM LEGEND]

Im glad you guys are giving the F.O. credit for these moves......however, im not.

They are trying to save face after failing to draft or sign quality players at that position for a couple years now.

Everyone has know the direction this league was taking with emphasis on offense and passing...and even this year they STILL didnt draft a corner in the early rounds.

Theres alot of change this team needs...and scapegoating brown and franks doesnt help it.

[Corvus]

How did this team whiff so bad at cornerback in the offseason? I know we couldn't throw the kind of money Buffalo did at Graham and I certainly didn't expect Mr. Bisciotti to do that, but this position is atrocious right now with Jimmy out. The reason we have been so bad in the secondary is because we have our starting strong safety in Elam or a rookie safety in Brooks covering slot receivers EVERY play, because apparently they are better than our reserve cornerbacks and Elam and Brooks are horrible nickel and dime backs. Elam and company need to be covering the deep end of the field and tight ends and he and Brooks still have a chance to be good at safety. Both are still very young and have lots of mental room to grow. I know this team loves versatility but this is ridiculous. I silently shook my head when the final 53 was announced with 4 cornerbacks (and Webb still not playing at that time) and 6 or 7 safeties. Getting decent cornerback reinforcements has to be priority #1 going into the offseason, whether its bucking up and spending for some good free agents or targeting draftees early on. This team hasn't even drafted a cornerback since Asa Jackson (5th) and Marc Anthony (7th) in 2012...

[gabefergy]

Im glad you guys are giving the F.O. credit for these moves......however, im not.

They are trying to save face after failing to draft or sign quality players at that position for a couple years now.

Everyone has know the direction this league was taking with emphasis on offense and passing...and even this year they STILL didnt draft a corner in the early rounds.

Theres alot of change this team needs...and scapegoating brown and franks doesnt help it.

I agree that the secondary was an area of concern heading into the season. I've thought that all along, but I don't think promoting a PS squad player or signing a guy off the street who just got cut has anything to do with saving face. The fact is that the Brown and Franks weren't good enough to help the team win and the FO tried to do what they can to get better. 

 

I don't know what you mean by lots of change either. The team is still pretty dang good right now except for the secondary, and hopefully these moves can help change that.

[rmcjacket23]

Im glad you guys are giving the F.O. credit for these moves......however, im not.

They are trying to save face after failing to draft or sign quality players at that position for a couple years now.

Everyone has know the direction this league was taking with emphasis on offense and passing...and even this year they STILL didnt draft a corner in the early rounds.

Theres alot of change this team needs...and scapegoating brown and franks doesnt help it.

Would it have mattered in 2014 if they did draft a corner in the early rounds?

 

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 2014 Chykie Brown = 2011 Jimmy Smith (and even mostly 2012 Jimmy Smith). Very, very, very little difference between the two players.

[I AM LEGEND]

I don't know what you mean by lots of change either. The team is still pretty dang good right now except for the secondary, and hopefully these moves can help change that.

A Wide Receiver corp that is non existent for long stretches.

An inconsistent QB making a gazillion dollars.

An overrated front 7 which the organization bet the house on for like the 4th straight year in a row.. again

And a secondary that migth rank in the bottom 5 of the league.

Lots of areas for improvement.

[Alaska Alaska!]

I don't know what you mean by lots of change either. The team is still pretty dang good right now except for the secondary, and hopefully these moves can help change that.

Until WR not named Steve Smith Sr start playing up to par, I can't say that this team is good.  We have the potential to be good, but...right now..

[I AM LEGEND]

Would it have mattered in 2014 if they did draft a corner in the early rounds?

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 2014 Chykie Brown = 2011 Jimmy Smith (and even mostly 2012 Jimmy Smith). Very, very, very little difference between the two players.

Your absolutely correct. Many CBs are struggling around the league early. Hell the Jets looked like they wiffed on 2 first round Corners in Wilson and Dee Milner. But at least they can say they tried..and at the very least u get the Jimmy Smith curve where it takes a couple years to finally get it and then u got ur future CB......but its kinda hard to find your CB of the future....when u dont draft a CB.

[rmcjacket23]

Until WR not named Steve Smith Sr start playing up to par, I can't say that this team is good.  We have the potential to be good, but...right now..

Agreed. But then again, literally two weeks ago, there was a topic on this very message board entitled "Are we the best team in the league right now"?

 

Its a week to week league. We probably aren't as good as we played against TB, nor are we probably nearly as bad as we played against PIT. We are probably somewhere in the middle. Whether that's good enough to be a "good" team or not still remains to be seen.

[Alaska Alaska!]

Agreed. But then again, literally two weeks ago, there was a topic on this very message board entitled "Are we the best team in the league right now"?

 

Its a week to week league. We probably aren't as good as we played against TB, nor are we probably nearly as bad as we played against PIT. We are probably somewhere in the middle. Whether that's good enough to be a "good" team or not still remains to be seen.

We're good enough to win games, but we're not good enough to be a playoff contender. 

[rmcjacket23]

Your absolutely correct. Many CBs are struggling around the league early. Hell the Jets looked like they wiffed on 2 first round Corners in Wilson and Dee Milner. But at least they can say they tried..and at the very least u get the Jimmy Smith curve where it takes a couple years to finally get it and then u got ur future CB......but its kinda hard to find your CB of the future....when u dont draft a CB.

Yes, but you can also apply that logic to literally most positions. Same exact thing can be said about WR... we never actually use quality draft picks on WRs.

 

The point being that FA exists also. I'm all for drafting a corner early, and I expect it to happen. But you and I both know that if he plays at a Jimmy Smith level for the first two years, 98% of the posters on these boards won't be happy with it. They want fixed to be quick, decisive, and immediate. They want Richard Sherman here, and they want him now (and they don't want to have to pay much to get him). That's the level of thinking we are dealing with here.

 

Its a position thats certainly tough to fill in FA, but not impossible. Even a Corey Graham-level player would boost this secondary tremendously if we could find two safeties who can actually play safety.

 

The real question I presented is... if we go the draft route (ala Jimmy Smith)... what percentage of the fanbase will be content with only getting marginally better a little bit at a time for probably 2 years and then being really good after that?

 

I don't see fixing this secondary as being a 2013-2014 shift between offensive line production like this year was. I don't think its a one year fix, and I think its unrealistic for fans to think so. In my opinion, we have zero confidence in ANY safety on our roster right now as a starting caliber player, and we need at least one corner. So you're facing the possibility of needing a MINIMUM of 2-3 upgrades in the secondary.

 

That's certainly not a 1 year project...

[rmcjacket23]

We're good enough to win games, but we're not good enough to be a playoff contender. 

Playoff team? Yes. SB contender? No.

 

Depending on who you face in the playoffs opens the possibility of winning a playoff game. I think we could go to Cincinnati or Pittsburgh and win in the playoffs, and I'd even give us an outside shot of beating Indy in the playoffs as well.

 

I don't think we'd have a prayer against Denver right now, and I think Patriots would be a tough out (although I do think we match up fairly well with them).

 

But obviously, getting there is the primary goal at this point.

[Purple Punishment]

Yes, but you can also apply that logic to literally most positions. Same exact thing can be said about WR... we never actually use quality draft picks on WRs.

The point being that FA exists also. I'm all for drafting a corner early, and I expect it to happen. But you and I both know that if he plays at a Jimmy Smith level for the first two years, 98% of the posters on these boards won't be happy with it. They want fixed to be quick, decisive, and immediate. They want Richard Sherman here, and they want him now (and they don't want to have to pay much to get him). That's the level of thinking we are dealing with here.

Its a position thats certainly tough to fill in FA, but not impossible. Even a Corey Graham-level player would boost this secondary tremendously if we could find two safeties who can actually play safety.

The real question I presented is... if we go the draft route (ala Jimmy Smith)... what percentage of the fanbase will be content with only getting marginally better a little bit at a time for probably 2 years and then being really good after that?

I don't see fixing this secondary as being a 2013-2014 shift between offensive line production like this year was. I don't think its a one year fix, and I think its unrealistic for fans to think so. In my opinion, we have zero confidence in ANY safety on our roster right now as a starting caliber player, and we need at least one corner. So you're facing the possibility of needing a MINIMUM of 2-3 upgrades in the secondary.

That's certainly not a 1 year project...

Agreed however I don't believe Pees is the coordinator we need. He needs to get the most out of his players and he's shown time after time that he's not 100 percent capable of accomplishing that. I guess I'm longing for the days when Offenses feared our front 7. Nobody is afraid of us anymore

[gabefergy]

Until WR not named Steve Smith Sr start playing up to par, I can't say that this team is good. We have the potential to be good, but...right now..

I dont see how that makes a difference. The running game is good. Daniels is a very reliable TE. The OL has been outstanding for most of the year. Torrey Smith has been fine as a number 2 WR and there have been contributions from other WRs as well.

Im not going to let one game change my opinion of the team that has looked like one of the best in the league for a large stretch of the season.