IS Cap Hell Worth It?

[tolucaraven]

Had they waited to cut him until after the suspension, would we still be on the hook for the cap hit? Since it's dead money (from the signing bonus, is that right?) At least, that's my understanding of how dead money works,

we're on the hook for it, suspension or not. I could be wrong.

If he's reinstated, it's all a moot point anyway. We've paid him to play for someone else.

The even dumber things the Ravens did was not let league suspend further after the tape Came out and not cut him then they wouldnt have to pay him until reinstated. Ravens were dumb and panicked, surprised Bisciotti would be that dumb of all people.

[ravensdfan]

Ok. This might be stupid and let me also say, I'm no cap expect like others here. Some may think I'm over reacting to the loss, but I've thought about this since Rice was cut. I think we should re-sign Jimmy and accept our fate by just getting rid of bad contracts. If Ngata doesn't re-sign for a reasonable number, send him on his way. Cut Webb and rebuild through the draft. As far as Torrey, I have no idea how those negotiations go between the 2 sides. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing him on another team because for whatever reason I think he will succeed, but he's struggling with us. Everyone keeps saying Joe is going to restructure, but what if he doesn't? He has NO reason to work something out with the organization and honestly has the upperhand in the situation. I'm not saying cut him, but this situation has the potential to get ugly when his cap hit really begins to spike. Pitta might never play again and has now missed his first 2 seasons after getting his contract. Monroe? LMAO. That's all he gets.

My point is, if this is the product we're getting, maybe we should just clear our cap for the future. In doing so, just pick up the higher draft picks in the process while allowing the younger guys to play and see what we have.

Oh yeah, Jacoby would be gone too. It's time to rethink our philosophy on receivers.

 

If I'm Flacco, I'm not restructuring unless it's in writing that it's going to the offense. Period.

 

Ngata - man I'd hate to see him go. He's still a force.

 

Rice/Pitta are out of our hands. We have the dead money from Rice to deal with & we'll have dead money from Pitta if he can't play. Nothing we can do about it.

 

Jacoby's played himself out of a job I'm fairly certain & Torrey is only coming back on a VERY friendly deal. His production does not warrant even a Jacoby deal right now. Torrey will succeed on a team that has other talented receivers. He's not a #1, is fast falling from even a solid #2, and we have no one to take the heat off of him. That is the problem. Put him on a team with an AJGreen or a Dez Bryant and he'll do well. Without that, no because he can't get any separation man to man, does not fight for the ball and can't run good routes consistently.

[Bravens292]

I don't even think Torrey should come back even if he is cheap. He is basically just a body at this point. Every pass to him is either incomplete or intercepted. We had everything for him to break out (Steve to take pressure off, unpredictable coordinator, running game, etc) and he has shown he is what you see at this point. I'd rather take a chance on someone with higher potential than Torrey right now instead of him taking up a starting spot. Joe has 0 chemistry with him and its just not worth it.

 

on the flip side, if we don't sign Jimmy this offseason, we're screwed. He is without a doubt our best player and the results the past 2 weeks have proven it. With him playing, we at least win 1 of those 2 games, possibly both. In the steelers game, we still kept it within range for 3 quarters before our corners collapsed in the 4th. Jimmy plays and im sure we at least have a chance to win in the final 5 minutes. He is crucial to wins and losses.

 

It won't happen but we need a new DC because we rely on our offensive success too much. Our offense plays bad and the bend but don't break completely backfires like it did last night and our road losses before that. We have to have a big lead for it to work. It is not a defense that will create turnovers or give an offense good field position. I see it highly unlikely dean pees is gone but i am frustrated with how content we are with mediocre defense. Points given up don't tell the whole story of how good a D is. OK FG's are nice and all but what happens when you face QB's that can score points? those 3 points turn into 7 and if you still can't limit them to fg's, game is over. When we had a bad day with Pagano, i could live with it. We went out there and they beat us with all we had. i cannot tolerate this type of defense.

[Dubs]

Possibly quick question...when a player is cut what do we keep on our books

 

EX. Webb -- Contract Details

 

would we keep the signing and restructure bonus? basically 5 mill? Not the best with this stuff

[rmw10]

Possibly quick question...when a player is cut what do we keep on our books

 

EX. Webb -- Contract Details

 

would we keep the signing and restructure bonus? basically 5 mill? Not the best with this stuff

 

Those numbers are incorrect.  I'm really not sure what they were doing there.  I'm finding the Over the Cap is much better with their numbers than Spotrac.

 

The only savings we get are base salary and option bonuses if they aren't picked up.  If we cut a player before the last year of his contract, that bonus money accelerates into the current year.

 

In Webb's case, next year, he'll count $12M against the cap with an $8M base salary.  However, because he has additional years beyond, bonus money accelerates and we save a grand total of $2M.  We'd essentially be paying him $10M to not be on the team, with minimal savings.

[Dubs]

Those numbers are incorrect.  I'm really not sure what they were doing there.  I'm finding the Over the Cap is much better with their numbers than Spotrac.

 

The only savings we get are base salary and option bonuses if they aren't picked up.  If we cut a player before the last year of his contract, that bonus money accelerates into the current year.

 

In Webb's case, next year, he'll count $12M against the cap with an $8M base salary.  However, because he has additional years beyond, bonus money accelerates and we save a grand total of $2M.  We'd essentially be paying him $10M to not be on the team, with minimal savings.

 

Thank you--thanks for the website-much easier to understand

[MTRavensFan]

The even dumber things the Ravens did was not let league suspend further after the tape Came out and not cut him then they wouldnt have to pay him until reinstated. Ravens were dumb and panicked, surprised Bisciotti would be that dumb of all people.

No, the dead money (9.8 mil) has already been paid. We're still on the hook here for that, cap-wise, regardless

What we wouldn't have to pay him is base salary (much smaller amount, anybody know how much?), which we get out of by anyway by cutting him.

 

Somebody help me out here, that is how it woks, right?

[MTRavensFan]

Cap hell is never worth it

Agreed.

I'm just worried that's where we're headed, despite the best of intentions.

[AsianRice]

Resign Jimmy Smith ASAP!!...He is deserved a top CB money.

 

 

Jimmy and Mosley are the two faces of the franchise like Lewis and Reed...Batman and Robin.....

 

 

We need a top notch #1 WR opposite with Steve Smith through FA or draft but I think Ozzie is good with FA than drafting a WR.

 

There is something wrong with our O-line; we need to fix it ASAP if we want to make the final run at the last playoff spot....

[Gordo52]

Cobb's going to demand some coin. He's a great WR in a great offense with a great QB... I don't like the notion I read in some places saying it's all due to Rodgers.

However, I'd love to have someone like him on our offense.... Who wouldn't? I think it's unlikely GB doesn't re sign him, but I didn't think Doom was realistic at the time when we got him....

Point I'm making is If we're going to throw money at a free agent this offseason, I hope it would be him. We all know finding one in the draft is a bad idea. He'd immediately be our number 1.

On the flip side, drafting a CB and having him contributing immediately is rare. Chris Harris Jr will probably be the top name on the market but I'm not sure how I'd feel about giving him a huge contract. I'm also reluctant about Jimmy now since he's battled injuries throughout his career....ugh

[redrum52]

Agreed.

I'm just worried that's where we're headed, despite the best of intentions.

This is was another reason I'm suggesting this. The way everything is happening and the Rice fiasco have basically put our backs against the wall anyway so why not try to make the best of te situation and just suck it up by removing other bad contracts as well. Try to clean up the situation for the future. Essentially what I think the Raider had to do with all the bad drafting and contracts Ol' AL had doled out prior to kicking the bucket.

[OLD SCHOOL SMASH BALL]

We need to get younger. Next year I want to see Arthur getting some of Smith snaps at LB, until eventually he fills that spot. I think they may gave held him back this year so Mosely can devrlop as the Leader, without any hard feelings.

Spend the money on younger guys. Extend older guys 1-2 years, but keep the core young sobthey can grow together, and find at leadt one decent corner opposite Jimmy and some guys that are just plain nasty. Nice guys finish in last place apparantly. Losing Boldin and Pollard set us back years.

[RaineV1]

Cap hell is never worth it. I'd rather lose the occasional good player due to price than to be in cap hell.

[redrum52]

Cap hell is never worth it. I'd rather lose the occasional good player due to price than to be in cap hell.

The problem is that it looks unavoidable at this point but we'll see what happens.

[Dfence4champs2052]

The Ravens FO blew it when they cut Rice. They overracted. They knew what he did, they knew the video would come out eventually. Accept the punishment and stand by your player, the Owner and FO lost my respect and overreacted to what media pressure was going to be, but the FO didnt own up. They panicked. The NFL suspended him, not the Ravens job to do. Ravens FO lost thier heads. Hence cap problem.

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH THIS.

[Purple Punishment]

We need to get younger. Next year I want to see Arthur getting some of Smith snaps at LB, until eventually he fills that spot. I think they may gave held him back this year so Mosely can devrlop as the Leader, without any hard feelings.

Spend the money on younger guys. Extend older guys 1-2 years, but keep the core young sobthey can grow together, and find at leadt one decent corner opposite Jimmy and some guys that are just plain nasty. Nice guys finish in last place apparantly. Losing Boldin and Pollard set us back years.

They had that mean attitude inherent of what the Baltimore Ravens are.

[ant2ney]

Free agents:

Dez Bryant(?)(WR)

Ahmad Bradshaw(RB)

Demaryius Thomas(WR)

Randal Cobb(WR)

Jordan Cameron(TE)

Julius Thomas(TE)

Cliff Avril(DE)

Antonio Cromartie(CB)

Chris Harris(CB)

Byron Maxwell(CB)

Brandon Flowers(CB)

Devin Mccourty (S/CB)

Will Hill(S)

Make it happen Ozzie

 

Surely the majority of the players on this list will be signed (either by a new team or extended at their current team) before the date at which they don't cost a compensatory pick? Which would probably take us out of the equation to sign them, due to our strategy of gaining extra compensatory picks each year by losing players in FA and not signing any FA players until they are officially cut?

 

Apart from Will Hill of course becuase he is already contracted to us...and maybe Bradshaw, cant see a huge market for him

[Tru11]

Free agents:

Dez Bryant(?)(WR)

Ahmad Bradshaw(RB)

Demaryius Thomas(WR)

Randal Cobb(WR)

Jordan Cameron(TE)

Julius Thomas(TE)

Cliff Avril(DE)

Antonio Cromartie(CB)

Chris Harris(CB)

Byron Maxwell(CB)

Brandon Flowers(CB)

Devin Mccourty (S/CB)

Will Hill(S)

Make it happen Ozzie

 

do you have any sense of reality ?

 

so according to you none of the teams will resign or tag any of these top players and the ravens will be the only 1 that would be intrested in signing them?

 

you do know you need cap space to sign players right?

 

You think ravens have the most cap space?

 

You think seriously the ravens are in position to clear enough cap space to resign their own players first and then be in position to even make a decend offer to any of these?

 

Im really intrested in how you think Ozzie should make this happen lol.

[Sami84]

lets accept then we are not going to be much of a team for at least 2 more years.

 

We have too many holes and rookies need time to gel.

 

Without high quality FA aquisitions to merge with good draft selections its going to be a long process

 

if flacco has another meh season this year i say we trade him for a first round pick and start over. He isnt that good. He really isnt. No team stays consistantly good unless you have a really good QB that can even in the darker times still make a difference to a flawed football team.

 

joe flacco is not irreplacable. He is not worth our financial flexibility or lack their of. I also hope this is the last time we give out contracts to guys like webb who play 1 good season...its ridiculous.

[K-Dog]

do you have any sense of reality ?

so according to you none of the teams will resign or tag any of these top players and the ravens will be the only 1 that would be intrested in signing them?

you do know you need cap space to sign players right?

You think ravens have the most cap space?

You think seriously the ravens are in position to clear enough cap space to resign their own players first and then be in position to even make a decend offer to any of these?

Im really intrested in how you think Ozzie should make this happen lol.

Fantasy muddies the water yet again.

[Sami84]

seriously..

 

what on earth is this team going to do to have a recieving core that can get it done next year?

 

pitta is done.

Daniels will be gone

Torrey is meh

Jacoby will be gone and is Meh

Steve smith will be another year older

 

 

This is horrible to think about..drafting is a lottery and we are not gaurenteed anything

 

This is why FA is important

 

can someone make me feel better about what we could possibly do to actualy have a recieving core next year that isnt the worst in the league?

[443hurricane]

Ok. This might be stupid and let me also say, I'm no cap expect like others here. Some may think I'm over reacting to the loss, but I've thought about this since Rice was cut. I think we should re-sign Jimmy and accept our fate by just getting rid of bad contracts. If Ngata doesn't re-sign for a reasonable number, send him on his way. Cut Webb and rebuild through the draft. As far as Torrey, I have no idea how those negotiations go between the 2 sides. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing him on another team because for whatever reason I think he will succeed, but he's struggling with us. Everyone keeps saying Joe is going to restructure, but what if he doesn't? He has NO reason to work something out with the organization and honestly has the upperhand in the situation. I'm not saying cut him, but this situation has the potential to get ugly when his cap hit really begins to spike. Pitta might never play again and has now missed his first 2 seasons after getting his contract. Monroe? LMAO. That's all he gets.

My point is, if this is the product we're getting, maybe we should just clear our cap for the future. In doing so, just pick up the higher draft picks in the process while allowing the younger guys to play and see what we have.

Oh yeah, Jacoby would be gone too. It's time to rethink our philosophy on receivers.

Interesting points, I want to think about this more before I comment further. However, I will say that Monroe and I have had a hate/hate relationship and I continue to believe he is not worth his contract.

 

I wouldn't be so drastic with the cuts(flacco), cap hell is not a place I want us to ever be(redskins). We need to remain competitive, so cutting certain players will help(j.jones, canty). I want us to build through the draft ultimately. 

 

I would offer torrey a mid level contract. He definitely isn't number one and I think it's mental. He's too connected to fans and cares what we think. I want my top wr being a dog type alpha male ala Dez Bryant, Cris Carter, heck I'll even take a quiet player like J. Rice.

 

But all together interesting points OP.. good debate

[redrum52]

Thanks. Wasn't trying to say cut Flacco either. Point was he's going to have a huge cap hit and has no reason to restructure. No benefit to cutting him and if we did we don't have a high enough pick to replace hime. He's here regardless, the question is for how much.

[rmcjacket23]

1. I certainly don't buy the notion that this team is currently in salary cap hell, nor do I think they will be in the near future.

 

2. As to the "blow up the team" notion, I certainly don't think that's realistic, nor is it beneficial to the franchise.

 

If we take a look at the 2015 cap situation, I would classify players in this regard (I only am doing the 20 players who account for over $1M each in cap space in 2015 currently)

 

Players who are guaranteed to be here next season (barring some Ray Rice-level incident): Flacco, Monroe, Dumervil, Suggs, Zuttah, Mosley, Elam, Jimmy Smith. It would cost the team more cap space to cut these players than to keep them in 2015, therefore it makes virtually no sense to release them (Jimmy's cap savings is zero, but we all know he's not going anywhere)

Players I consider likely to be retained based on their production and minimal cap savings from releasing: Steve Smith, Daryl Smith, Jacoby, Osemele, Upshaw. All of these players are either highly productive (Steve, Osemele) or their perceived benefit to the team exceeds the cap savings of releasing them ($750K each for Daryl Smith and Jacoby, $1.1M for Upshaw).

Likely release candidates: Canty, Koch, McClellan. Canty and Koch would save over $6M against the salary cap collectively if they are released, and I think the general consensus is the Ravens can fill those roles either internally or easily in FA/draft. Also the possibility they are brought back at reduced salaries.

Wildcards: Ngata, Yanda, Webb, Pitta. These are essentially a case-by-case basis. I think Yanda is the most likely to be retained, though his release would create $5.5M in cap space. Ngata's release would create $8.5M in cap space, though I think he alone with Yanda are likely extension candidates. Webb's cap savings from a release is $2M, which to me isn't significant enough to warranty him being released. I think he plays out 2015 as is. Pitta is the real dangerous scenario in my opinion. As it stands currently, he would cost $6.2M against the cap. If he retires, the cap hit for him increases to $12.8M in 2015. That would collectively mean that Pitta + Rice = $21.3M in cap space used for 2015, with neither contributing a dime.

 

Basically, from my assessment, I don't expect any major releases coming in the offseason. I think you'll see a significant turnover in "role-type" players, but most of them with minimal cap savings. I think Ngata gets a shorter extension that creates cap space, and possibly Yanda as well. I think Pitta retires, which will hurt our cap significantly, but we should be able to make up most of his dead money space with savings from releases and extensions.

 

Given that the only UFAs coming up in 2015 that are significant in my opinion are Torrey, McPhee, and maybe Forsett (Tucker is a RFA), I think there will be some cap space to spend for the Ravens, but obviously not a ton.

[jaege]

Answer to the OPs question. No.

[ravensnick]

Brown, Daniels, Pitta, even Torrey and jacoby have fine height, height isn't a problem on this team...and its no secret that I'm pulling for Jaelen Strong in the draft

Strong is my #1 wr for us in the draft (since White and Cooper should be gone). I doubt Pitta plays another down in the nfl. Jacoby should be a pure kick returner with occasions fly routes. i really doubt Torrey comes back at this point. Brown is tall, but hasn't been playing to his size. 

[Maryland]

Kind of off-topic, but was there ever a discernible reason for restructuring Webb? We never signed/extended anyone else after restructuring him, and blatant restructuring is a last-resort for Ozzie. Now we're probably stuck with Webb through 2015, maybe even through 2016, regardless of how he plays. 

 

Seemed crazy to restructure him of all people (coming off his 2nd ACL, dealing with back problems, looked bad in 2013). 

[hn68wb4]

Kind of off-topic, but was there ever a discernible reason for restructuring Webb? We never signed/extended anyone else after restructuring him, and blatant restructuring is a last-resort for Ozzie. Now we're probably stuck with Webb through 2015, maybe even through 2016, regardless of how he plays. 

 

Seemed crazy to restructure him of all people (coming off his 2nd ACL, dealing with back problems, looked bad in 2013). 

same reason Ozzy restructure any player - to lower cap hit. Why are we stuck with him through 2015? after this season if Ozzy so chooses he can cut Webb and we'd save money, not a ton of money but we'd save money, we aren't "stuck" with him by any means, it wouldn't make much sense to get rid of him because he is a quality starter when healthy and we wouldn't save all that much but he could be gone whenever Ozzy decides he no longer is worth the deal he has

[rmcjacket23]

Kind of off-topic, but was there ever a discernible reason for restructuring Webb? We never signed/extended anyone else after restructuring him, and blatant restructuring is a last-resort for Ozzie. Now we're probably stuck with Webb through 2015, maybe even through 2016, regardless of how he plays. 

 

Seemed crazy to restructure him of all people (coming off his 2nd ACL, dealing with back problems, looked bad in 2013). 

 

same reason Ozzy restructure any player - to lower cap hit. Why are we stuck with him through 2015? after this season if Ozzy so chooses he can cut Webb and we'd save money, not a ton of money but we'd save money, we aren't "stuck" with him by any means, it wouldn't make much sense to get rid of him because he is a quality starter when healthy and we wouldn't save all that much but he could be gone whenever Ozzy decides he no longer is worth the deal he has

From what I recall, I believe we actually needed the cap space because we had some players coming on the books (I believe at final cuts) that would have pushed us over the cap.

 

We do save $2M against the cap by cutting Webb in 2015, but I find that unlikely. No matter how poorly he has played so far, he's easily worth $2M to this team next season.

[JoeyFlex5]

with jimmys injury, he may come cheaper now... 

 

silver linings folks, really digging for them..