Is Joe Flacco Becoming a Good QB?

[redrum52]

That's not really true. A few interceptions is not the end of the world. It's a very overrated stat. If you want to win you have to make aggressive throws. Those are going to come with a few more interceptions along the way. But you have to make those throws if you are going to be great. Never turning the ball over and never turning it loose is not great.

Manning, Rodgers, Brady are in a league of their own, but I would consider Brees, roethlesbeger, luck and flacco great also and in a group just behind.

Is fumbling an overrated stat as well?

He threw where there were four defenders, with on being directly in front of the receiver.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

I love that he went for it.If you can't get a touchdown from less than 1 yard out you don't deserve any points.My problem was with the play calling.I'm all for us throwing the ball in goal line situation but when you're that close you gotta run it or sneak it.Say what you want about Harbaugh,but he's led us to 5 straight playoff appearances,5 straights years of atleast one playoff win,3 AFCCG's,a superbowl and has us on pace to make the playoffs again this year even with all the drama and injuries we've been through.Many coaches would've folded and lost the locker room under some of the stuff we've been through in the past year.We're lucky to have him.Atleast 25 other teams and fan bases would gladly trade their HC for him.Especially the teams and fan bases in our division.Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.We've got a great HC leading our team right now.

With all due respect, you could have led us to the same place in the last 5 years with the great

defensive personnel we had. BTW, he's not a gift horse. The reason you don't look a gift horse in the mouth is because you can tell their age by the condition of their teeth so I'm not sure what your

slogan has to do with the price of tea in China. But, I'll give you credit, Homer. You're a company

man who espouses the company line.

[ravensdfan]

With all due respect, you could have led us to the same place in the last 5 years with the great

defensive personnel we had. BTW, he's not a gift horse. The reason you don't look a gift horse in the mouth is because you can tell their age by the condition of their teeth so I'm not sure what your

slogan has to do with the price of tea in China. But, I'll give you credit, Homer. You're a company

man who espouses the company line.

Really? Because we had that same defensive personnel the year before and went 5-11.

[redrum52]

Really? Because we had that same defensive personnel the year before and went 5-11.

Wasn't our secondary decimated with injuries, injuries on the O line and our starting qb sidelined that year?

[ravens rule]

I can't stand Flacco. Imo he is good quarterback that is allergic to putting together a string of good games. Question. Has Flacco ever had 3 awesome games in a row in his regular season career. No excuses man we have a better online and running game this year. 

[DefensiveMind]

Its hard to find which tier of QB flacco belongs to.  I say hes above the cutlers and romos because hes proven he can win the big games, but hes obviously below the peytons, rodgers, brees' of the world (no brady cause I believe he is the most overrated nfl player of all time) but thats a different story. Flacco is a hard one to figure out. I see him being our Carson Palmer from his bengals days. Pro bowl potential, but lacks the IT factor

[ravensdfan]

Wasn't our secondary decimated with injuries, injuries on the O line and our starting qb sidelined that year?

 

McNair missed Week 2 & Week 3, both wins. Week 9 he was pulled after getting hit a lot & fumbling twice. He started in 6 games - only 2 of them wins so pretty sure he wasn't the big "IT" factor.

 

McCallister played only 8 games, Rolle only played 5. Landry & Reed played all 16.

 

There were injuries on the O line but all the starters played better than 10 games. Again, a moot point to the claim made.

 

Besides, like we haven't had massive injuries since Harbaugh took over?

[CalvinSmoke]

Whine whine complain complain, we are what we are. The Ravens won't be 16-0, and Flacco will throw interceptions. Big whoop

[redrum52]

McNair missed Week 2 & Week 3, both wins. Week 9 he was pulled after getting hit a lot & fumbling twice. He started in 6 games - only 2 of them wins so pretty sure he wasn't the big "IT" factor.

McCallister played only 8 games, Rolle only played 5. Landry & Reed played all 16.

There were injuries on the O line but all the starters played better than 10 games. Again, a moot point to the claim made.

Besides, like we haven't had massive injuries since Harbaugh took over?

Flacco is the best qb we've had and Harbaugh has been the best coach as well. Ozzies drafts have been pretty good as well, but couldn't I say Rice was the reason for success as well then though?

[ravensdfan]

Flacco is the best qb we've had and Harbaugh has been the best coach as well. Ozzies drafts have been pretty good as well, but couldn't I say Rice was the reason for success as well then though?

 

Did you even read the comment being responded to? Let me help so you can follow the conversation properly.

 

With all due respect, you could have led us to the same place in the last 5 years with the great

defensive personnel we had.

 

 

It wasn't about Flacco (which is why you've got your panties in a bunch because you thought someone was giving him credit for something) it was in reference to Harbaugh being a good HC.

 

No mention of offense at all. Just with the great defensive personnel.  Debunked. Moving on.

[PoeDinkum]

IMO - Joe is indeed a very good, above average QB on the verge of elite, but has yet to take the next step. 


 

I believe elite QB's make people around them better, can take over games against quality opponents, have a clutch gene, and usually are in the top 5, if not leading, in one or more significant passing categories. This quarterback contends for the SB leading his team to playoff births most years with solid, but not exactly stacked, personnel across the board. Sure there are a few stars who standout, but football folks identify the elite QB as being primarily responsible for a team's success. From time to time they throw in a clunker game, maybe once a year. I consider this to be 10% of the QBs in the league.


 

The conundrum here is that Joe fulfills half of my criteria. His regular stats are subpar, but he excels in the postseason. He has the clutch gene, maybe not as often as we’d like, but he has made some big plays when it counted. However, he still can’t take over a game against quality opponents and the debate rages over whether the talent is responsible for his success, or inhibits his development.

 

Clearly, he didn’t put this team in a position to win at Cincy and take control of the division. He picked a lousy time for a clunker. There are still very few QBs who could have guided this team to the success we’ve had since he came into the league, and frankly I don’t want them anyway because to me Joe embodies the attitude of Ravens ball. He’s a lunchpail, AMAZINGLY DURABLE guy, who quietly goes about his business and is usually overlooked, or underestimated for one reason or another.

 

I’m in Joe’s corner, believe he is a very good QB, but sure would like him to put all this to rest with some consistent amazing play throughout the course of a regular season. How about this one?

[codizzle]

Flacco is a good QB. The question should have been (for this thread...not in real life) "Is Flacco becoming a great QB?". And the answer is no.

Yup

But I do think flacco has some traits that are great

I honestly couldn't name 2 QB's i'd rather have in that situation Sunday with 57 seconds left and no timeouts

[3-4ravdef509]

Is fumbling an overrated stat as well?

He threw where there were four defenders, with on being directly in front of the receiver.

 

The underneath defender wasn't there till last second. Flacco saw a tight window and was just a second too late. Interceptions like that don't bother me. It means you're trying.

 

Honestly it's a lot better than last year when he was forcing throws right and left. This is the first game where I saw him "push" a little too much, understandably though seeing as it was a divisional foe

[berad]

I can't stand Flacco. Imo he is good quarterback that is allergic to putting together a string of good games. Question. Has Flacco ever had 3 awesome games in a row in his regular season career. No excuses man we have a better online and running game this year. 

 

Define "awesome". Wins / QB Rating / yards/attempt?

[redrum52]

The underneath defender wasn't there till last second. Flacco saw a tight window and was just a second too late. Interceptions like that don't bother me. It means you're trying.

Honestly it's a lot better than last year when he was forcing throws right and left. This is the first game where I saw him "push" a little too much, understandably though seeing as it was a divisional foe

So Geno Smith is trying very hard.

[DefensiveMind]

Yup

But I do think flacco has some traits that are great

I honestly couldn't name 2 QB's i'd rather have in that situation Sunday with 57 seconds left and no timeouts

peyton manning, aaron rodgers?

[3-4ravdef509]

So Geno Smith is trying very hard.

You're trying pretty hard to be something...

You lost credibility in your argument when brought up Geno Smith in comparison to Joe Flacco...

[redrum52]

You're trying pretty hard to be something...

You lost credibility in your argument when brought up Geno Smith in comparison to Joe Flacco...

You said throwing picks means he's trying. How come I lose credibility for that but others don't when comparing him to the top 4 qbs in the league?

[Tank 92]

You said throwing picks means he's trying. How come I lose credibility for that but others don't when comparing him to the top 4 qbs in the league?

 

Have you watched the "top" Qbs in the league?  Do they not throw picks as well? Do they not also sometimes make bad decisions? If you followed them as closely and not just their highlights you would realize that all QBs make mistakes. What separates the good from the bad is the ability to make the big plays when it counts the most.

[redrum52]

Have you watched the "top" Qbs in the league? Do they not throw picks as well? Do they not also sometimes make bad decisions? If you followed them as closely and not just their highlights you would realize that all QBs make mistakes. What separates the good from the bad is the ability to make the big plays when it counts the most.

I watch them and see them hitting guys in stride much more that I see Flacco doing so. I see much better placement, quicker reads and more pocket awareness when things break down and no, I'm not just watching high lights.

Joe will maybe string together 4 really good games, around 8 mediocre to good games and 3-4 awful games. It is what it is and maybe it's just my fault for expecting more. It's year 7 and nothing is going to change with him.

[3-4ravdef509]

You said throwing picks means he's trying. How come I lose credibility for that but others don't when comparing him to the top 4 qbs in the league?

 

Because the amount/nature of the interceptions Geno throws are not in the same solar system of Flacco.

 

When Flacco throws a pick, if I did a complete breakdown of this year, here's the numbers:

 

1 late in the flat

 

1 hit while thrown

 

1 bad throw

 

1 receiver's fault

 

1 great play by defender

 

1 late into a tight window

 

1 Torrey got concussed and stopped running route

 

As you can see, there's no pattern to his interceptions, and of his total 7, 4 weren't even his fault. And interceptions are part of the game. Aside from last year, Flacco didn't have a int problem. He used to have a fumble problem which has since been corrected.

 

Of the 3 that are undeniably his fault, only one was forced into double or higher coverage, and there was a clear shot with that one he was just late. The other 2, well bad throws just happen, he's only had 1 result in a pick, and the other he was pressured and threw into the flat and the defender jumped it. That happens every Sunday at least a few times.

 

Joes not making habits of making bad reads, forcing more throws than he should, throwing into double or higher coverage, etc. But every one of those things happens once in a while.

 

Geno is just terrible all around and has bad habits or throwing the ball up for grabs to the point you don't even know what happened.

 

The fact that I  had to spell all this out is why I said your argument lost credibility.

 

Have you watched the "top" Qbs in the league?  Do they not throw picks as well? Do they not also sometimes make bad decisions? If you followed them as closely and not just their highlights you would realize that all QBs make mistakes. What separates the good from the bad is the ability to make the big plays when it counts the most.

 

And, to rebound from bad performances which Joe has a history for.

 

I watch them and see them hitting guys in stride much more that I see Flacco doing so. I see much better placement, quicker reads and more pocket awareness when things break down and no, I'm not just watching high lights.

Joe will maybe string together 4 really good games, around 8 mediocre to good games and 3-4 awful games. It is what it is and maybe it's just my fault for expecting more. It's year 7 and nothing is going to change with him.

 

Maybe if Flacco had receivers that could, idk, get open consistently he'd be able to show off his ball placement better. Only Smith Sr gets open, and everyone else he's gotta thread the needle to. 

 

You only need 4 really good games to win a Super Bowl and win MVP of it...and Joe has done that, so he's our qb for now and forever till he retires, get used to it, or find a different team. I don't want him to change. 

 

His struggles are exemplified by the lack of great talent around him, and the level of defenses we face here in the AFC North. Put him the NFC South we already know what kinds of numbers he'd put up.

[redrum52]

Because the amount/nature of the interceptions Geno throws are not in the same solar system of Flacco.

When Flacco throws a pick, if I did a complete breakdown of this year, here's the numbers:

1 late in the flat

1 hit while thrown

1 bad throw

1 receiver's fault

1 great play by defender

1 late into a tight window

1 Torrey got concussed and stopped running route

As you can see, there's no pattern to his interceptions, and of his total 7, 4 weren't even his fault. And interceptions are part of the game. Aside from last year, Flacco didn't have a int problem. He used to have a fumble problem which has since been corrected.

Of the 3 that are undeniably his fault, only one was forced into double or higher coverage, and there was a clear shot with that one he was just late. The other 2, well bad throws just happen, he's only had 1 result in a pick, and the other he was pressured and threw into the flat and the defender jumped it. That happens every Sunday at least a few times.

Joes not making habits of making bad reads, forcing more throws than he should, throwing into double or higher coverage, etc. But every one of those things happens once in a while.

Geno is just terrible all around and has bad habits or throwing the ball up for grabs to the point you don't even know what happened.

The fact that I had to spell all this out is why I said your argument lost credibility.

And, to rebound from bad performances which Joe has a history for.

Maybe if Flacco had receivers that could, idk, get open consistently he'd be able to show off his ball placement better. Only Smith Sr gets open, and everyone else he's gotta thread the needle to.

You only need 4 really good games to win a Super Bowl and win MVP of it...and Joe has done that, so he's our qb for now and forever till he retires, get used to it, or find a different team. I don't want him to change.

His struggles are exemplified by the lack of great talent around him, and the level of defenses we face here in the AFC North. Put him the NFC South we already know what kinds of numbers he'd put up.

3 of this picks are fancy ways of saying Joe threw a pick and I doubt thats how his pick breakdown would work out.

I'm skipping the rest and going to ask you this then. Would you rather have top flight weapons like Matt Ryan and no team around him or a balanced team with a good o line, run game and defense? Cause I'm pretty sure that those are helpful for a qb too.

I'm also pretty sure every other qb can make a claim like you did for Flacco for why they threw a pick in a situation as well, so now I'll ask you like I've been asked, do you watch other qbs besides the highlights? Are you going back to check if their wrs are running correct routes or how their o line is blocking?

[3-4ravdef509]

3 of this picks are fancy ways of saying Joe threw a pick and I doubt thats how his pick breakdown would work out.

I'm skipping the rest and going to ask you this then. Would you rather have top flight weapons like Matt Ryan and no team around him or a balanced team with a good o line, run game and defense? Cause I'm pretty sure that those are helpful for a qb too.

Oh you misinterpret me if you think that I want the situation that Matt Ryan has. I think the situation we have Flacco in, and the team we have around him is good. However, where we are lacking is at quality receiving weapons. I don't mean to say that he needs top tier number one draft pick talent, but someone that can run a simple slant route against man coverage besides an aging 35-year-old receiver, and maybe some tight ends second stay on the field for more than four games a season would be nice as well. The trouble right now is that against any team with good cornerbacks like we've seen twice against the Bengals and once against the Colts, our passing game can be shut down quite effectively because our receivers can't beat man coverage. And without healthy tight ends to attack the middle of the field, we see how easy the Bengals defense was able to shut down Flacco. His first two reads were always covered, and by the time he's able to get to his third or fourth ones, even the best of offensive lines are going to break down in pass coverage by then.

Also, you're really not earning any points here with being rude and just deciding that you're going to ignore the entirety of someone's post well engaging in a debate with them. It's against proper decorum, and makes me not want to even give you the time of day. I take the time to read the entirety of your posts, respond to the entirety of them, and take time out of my day to form my responses. You could return the courtesy by reading the entire thing and responding accordingly.

[redrum52]

Oh you misinterpret me if you think that I want the situation that Matt Ryan has. I think the situation we have Flacco in, and the team we have around him is good. However, where we are lacking is at quality receiving weapons. I don't mean to say that he needs top tier number one draft pick talent, but someone that can run a simple slant route against man coverage besides an aging 35-year-old receiver, and maybe some tight ends second stay on the field for more than four games a season would be nice as well. The trouble right now is that against any team with good cornerbacks like we've seen twice against the Bengals and once against the Colts, our passing game can be shut down quite effectively because our receivers can't beat man coverage. And without healthy tight ends to attack the middle of the field, we see how easy the Bengals defense was able to shut down Flacco. His first two reads were always covered, and by the time he's able to get to his third or fourth ones, even the best of offensive lines are going to break down in pass coverage by then.

Also, you're really not earning any points here with being rude and just deciding that you're going to ignore the entirety of someone's post well engaging in a debate with them. It's against proper decorum, and makes me not want to even give you the time of day. I take the time to read the entirety of your posts, respond to the entirety of them, and take time out of my day to form my responses. You could return the courtesy by reading the entire thing and responding accordingly.

I apologize if it came off rude, but I'm on mobile. I read your post but tried respond to parts I felt were most relevant.

[3-4ravdef509]

3 of this picks are fancy ways of saying Joe threw a pick and I doubt thats how his pick breakdown would work out.

I'm skipping the rest and going to ask you this then. Would you rather have top flight weapons like Matt Ryan and no team around him or a balanced team with a good o line, run game and defense? Cause I'm pretty sure that those are helpful for a qb too.

I'm also pretty sure every other qb can make a claim like you did for Flacco for why they threw a pick in a situation as well, so now I'll ask you like I've been asked, do you watch other qbs besides the highlights? Are you going back to check if their wrs are running correct routes or how their o line is blocking?

Funny mention that, seeing as Nick Folles and Aaron Rogers both just had themselves some two interception games and lost because they were asked to do too much. And the talent on offense on both those teams is even greater than what we have.

Rogers has a lot of receivers that will go up and make contested catches in tight coverage, and it the only player on our team that can do that is 5 feet 9 inches tall.

Both of them got a couple of touchdowns and prettier end of the day Stats, but that's because they both through almost twice as much as Flacco did.

Actually Aaron Rodgers only had one touchdown.

Drew Brees had a great game against the Packers, because he practically went untouched and did not go against a good defense, and his receivers were able to get plenty of separation.

Look at it this Way, Joe has played great against every team he has faced this year that did not have a former Baltimore Ravens defensive coach on the sideline coaching against him, and that wasn't a divisional opponent that knows him very well and who have a defense that stacks up very well against our offense

[3-4ravdef509]

I apologize if it came off rude, but I'm on mobile. I read your post but tried respond to parts I felt were most relevant.

I debunked your idea that he throws too many interceptions or has a turnover problem such as one like Geno Smith, and he is still on a pace for a career high in touchdowns, so I ask what more are you asking for? You can't expect Joe to put up elite numbers without an elite offense around him, but we both agree we would rather have a complete team around him, so his pace that he's on right now statistically is about as much as we can hope for unless we draft some immensely talented receivers.

You allude to the idea that it's more of an eyeball test, which is hard to debate, but I believe if you go back and watch he has no problem hitting receivers in stride when he is sitting in the pocket comfortably and receivers actually get open. He isn't the most accurate quarterback in the league, and his deep ball isn't quite as good as it was in the first five years, but that has as much to do with timing as anything, also playing with a new system and a lot of players going in and out, and we all know the problems with Torrey Smith and him

[redrum52]

I debunked your idea that he throws too many interceptions or has a turnover problem such as one like Geno Smith, and he is still on a pace for a career high in touchdowns, so I ask what more are you asking for? You can't expect Joe to put up elite numbers without an elite offense around him, but we both agree we would rather have a complete team around him, so his pace that he's on right now statistically is about as much as we can hope for unless we draft some immensely talented receivers.

You allude to the idea that it's more of an eyeball test, which is hard to debate, but I believe if you go back and watch he has no problem hitting receivers in stride when he is sitting in the pocket comfortably and receivers actually get open. He isn't the most accurate quarterback in the league, and his deep ball isn't quite as good as it was in the first five years, but that has as much to do with timing as anything, also playing with a new system and a lot of players going in and out, and we all know the problems with Torrey Smith and him

I never said he had a TO problem like Geno. You mentioned Rodgers throwing as many INTs as him and then went on to say Rodgers threw more than him cause he was relied on more and he has a worse defense. All I ask for is some consistency and less bone headed picks. He's not asked to do as much as the other guys so not turning the ball over would be a good start. It's not just the TO but when and how he does it. No one on this site can go into a game and have any kind of prediction for Joe Flacco that day. Since were usuimg Geno, I have a basic idea of what I'll get. 2-3 picks and errant throws. Peyton, you can usually expect at least 2-3 tds and 250-300 yards passing, regardless of who he's facing for the most part, good or bad. With Flacco, the running game can be working, defense playing well and still have no idea what you'll get from him.

[3-4ravdef509]

I never said he had a TO problem like Geno. You mentioned Rodgers throwing as many INTs as him and then went on to say Rodgers threw more than him cause he was relied on more and he has a worse defense. All I ask for is some consistency and less bone headed picks. He's not asked to do as much as the other guys so not turning the ball over would be a good start. It's not just the TO but when and how he does it. No one on this site can go into a game and have any kind of prediction for Joe Flacco that day. Since were usuimg Geno, I have a basic idea of what I'll get. 2-3 picks and errant throws. Peyton, you can usually expect at least 2-3 tds and 250-300 yards passing, regardless of who he's facing for the most part, good or bad. With Flacco, the running game can be working, defense playing well and still have no idea what you'll get from him.

Within three sentences you said Flacco doesn't and he does have a turnover problem...?

And it's not like Flacco goes into a game and goess hmm I'm going to make the timing of my interceptions extremely untimely today at bad times, I mean that's how the game goes.

And I'm already proven to you that only three interceptions were even debatably boneheaded throws by him, which I don't even think they were that. Out of where you're getting an idea of boneheaded throws I have no idea, because he hasn't had many of those this year. If you're just calling any interception it's his fault a boneheaded throw, well he's only had three

The fluctuation of healthy and injured players and the level of defense as we face is what's causing the fluctuation in Flacco's numbers. It's not rocket science

[redrum52]

Within three sentences you said Flacco doesn't and he does have a turnover problem...?

And it's not like Flacco goes into a game and goess hmm I'm going to make the timing of my interceptions extremely untimely today at bad times, I mean that's how the game goes.

And I'm already proven to you that only three interceptions were even debatably boneheaded throws by him, which I don't even think they were that. Out of where you're getting an idea of boneheaded throws I have no idea, because he hasn't had many of those this year. If you're just calling any interception it's his fault a boneheaded throw, well he's only had three

The fluctuation of healthy and injured players and the level of defense as we face is what's causing the fluctuation in Flacco's numbers. It's not rocket science

First, what you call a good play by the defender and a wr mistake could be your opinion. I think the throw to Torrey last week was a bad throw and decision and I don't know which play your talking about where the defender made a good play. You can say Torrey should fight to break it up and I can say he shouldnt have made that throw with that coverage. Next, I'm not calling him a turnover machine, but I would like for there to be less picks. Isn't this suppose to be a quick read offense meant to cut down on interceptions? If that's the case, why is he on pace for his about his career average? That's all I meant by wanting less picks. I also understand performances dipping when facing different levels of competition, but the fluctuation is way to high for my liking. Also, those 2 turnovers in the previous game cost us 10 points.

[codizzle]

peyton manning, aaron rodgers?

Aaron Rodgers would be the one..

If I needed a game winning drive like that, I'd rather have flacco than peyton