Is Joe Flacco Becoming a Good QB?

[rmcjacket23]

I love how people bring up the one anomaly(Dan Marino)to the good QB's win it all argument whenever this conversation come up.GREAT QB'S WIN SUPERBOWLS!Period!You could probably count on one hand how many great/elite QB's in the superbowl era didn't win a SB.Go look at the list of QB's who make it to the playoffs every year and it's always a list of the best QB's in the league.There might be 1 or 2 outliers per year but even then I bet that QB/QB's had a statistically good year.The other argument that I love seeing is "why don't you use win's/superbowls to judge RB's,ILB's or an O-lineman?".The answer to that is simple.It's almost impossible for a QB to have a good year and not win alot of games that season.You can't say that about any other position on the team.Think about how often you see a QB light up the stat sheet and miss the playoffs.Doesn't happen very often does it?Now think about how a guy like Daryl Smith has been a stud for his entire career and only made the playoffs once.Or how Patrick Willis was playing insanely good football in the first few years of his career but  didn't start making the playoffs until his team started getting good QB play.Bad QB play/bad QB's = losses.Good QB's/good QB play = wins.That's not an opinion,it's a fact.There's too much evidence for anyone to think otherwise.That's the reason why QB's are judged by whether or not they can win it all.

Problem is... there's many QBs who have won a SB. There's also some that have won multiple QBs.

 

So when judging those QBs against each other... how do you do it?

[beanfigger]

No surprise that Joe is way higher than usual on deep balls this year because he's throwing deep when deep is there instead of just flinging it deep every single play by design.

[redrum52]

I love how people bring up the one anomaly(Dan Marino)to the good QB's win it all argument whenever this conversation come up.GREAT QB'S WIN SUPERBOWLS!Period!You could probably count on one hand how many great/elite QB's in the superbowl era didn't win a SB.Go look at the list of QB's who make it to the playoffs every year and it's always a list of the best QB's in the league.There might be 1 or 2 outliers per year but even then I bet that QB/QB's had a statistically good year.The other argument that I love seeing is "why don't you use win's/superbowls to judge RB's,ILB's or an O-lineman?".The answer to that is simple.It's almost impossible for a QB to have a good year and not win alot of games that season.You can't say that about any other position on the team.Think about how often you see a QB light up the stat sheet and miss the playoffs.Doesn't happen very often does it?Now think about how a guy like Daryl Smith has been a stud for his entire career and only made the playoffs once.Or how Patrick Willis was playing insanely good football in the first few years of his career but didn't start making the playoffs until his team started getting good QB play.Bad QB play/bad QB's = losses.Good QB's/good QB play = wins.That's not an opinion,it's a fact.There's too much evidence for anyone to think otherwise.That's the reason why QB's are judged by whether or not they can win it all.

Marino, Kelly, McNabb, Tarkenton, McNair, Culpepper, Testaverde, Moon and Cunningham come to mind off the bat. As someone else mentioned some bad QB's have won SBs and Joe even won a playoff game completing only 4 passes. How about Big Bens first SB?

[gabefergy]

No surprise that Joe is way higher than usual on deep balls this year because he's throwing deep when deep is there instead of just flinging it deep every single play by design.

There is so much truth to this. Under Cam's system he would be forced to throw deep to covered receivers because there were no other options besides taking a sack. With Kubiak, it feels more like he only throws deep when there is a WR in position to make a play. His two picks this year on deep throws came on a play where he was hit as he threw and on a play where the WR ran a horrible route in man coverage. 

[hawkprey]

Not beating Joe up here, just correcting a myth about his deep ball accuracy and effectiveness.

From PFF regarding 2013 and 2012:

"Highlighting the myth about Flacco’s arm, the Ravens’ signal caller had the second worst Deep Accuracy of any quarterback in 2013, and had just one touchdown and eight interceptions. This comes a year after his 11 touchdowns and zero interceptions lead to claims that he was the best deep thrower in the league, despite finishing 18th with a Deep Acc% of 40.2% in 2012. Still, his accuracy on deep passes dropped by 14.1% in 2013, with only Jake Locker (23.3%) finishing with a lower mark."

He was not top 10 in 2012. Didn't bother to check 2010, but I assume not top 10 there either.

There's no sense in beating this subject to death, but on one last note: there's a drastic difference between an offense that forces deep balls and an offense that only attempts them when there is a receiver open (like most teams). The "myth" of Flacco's deep ball was never established by stats - it was determined by people who actually watched the games and said "This guy can really throw it deep". It was established by people like Bill Belichick coming out and saying that stopping the deep ball was the most critical part of defending the Ravens.

[1/28/01]

There's no sense in beating this subject to death, but on one last note: there's a drastic difference between an offense that forces deep balls and an offense that only attempts them when there is a receiver open (like most teams). The "myth" of Flacco's deep ball was never established by stats - it was determined by people who actually watched the games and said "This guy can really throw it deep". It was established by people like Bill Belichick coming out and saying that stopping the deep ball was the most critical part of defending the Ravens.

Its been determined by some that he excels with the deep ball and its been determined by some that he doesnt. Stats are stats and opinions are opinions. Im not the type to get caught up in either too much, just wanted to point some things out from my perspective. Regardless, Im liking the overall picture this year.

[Gordo52]

Love the puns.

Haha, believe it or not, totally unintentional.

[beanfigger]

Marino, Kelly, McNabb, Tarkenton, McNair, Culpepper, Testaverde, Moon and Cunningham come to mind off the bat. As someone else mentioned some bad QB's have won SBs and Joe even won a playoff game completing only 4 passes. How about Big Bens first SB?

A lot of the same I was thinking. I'd add Lamonica and Bledsoe. However, all except Marino, Tarkenton and Moon probably aren't unanimous amongst the top QBs of the Super Bowl era. The rest are just as controversial opinion as some of the one-time winners with lesser stats. I, however, agree with all the QBs you listed, with the possible exception of Culpepper. His poor play outside the system and all-star team he played in during the Minnesota years have me second thoughts.

[redrum52]

A lot of the same I was thinking. I'd add Lamonica and Bledsoe. However, all except Marino, Tarkenton and Moon probably aren't unanimous amongst the top QBs of the Super Bowl era. The rest are just as controversial opinion as some of the one-time winners with lesser stats. I, however, agree with all the QBs you listed, with the possible exception of Culpepper. His poor play outside the system and all-star team he played in during the Minnesota years have me second thoughts.

Can't believe I forgot Bledsoe. Good point on Culpepper, but I feel most of those have arguments, even if not in the same bracket as the very top tier guys.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

Marino, Kelly, McNabb, Tarkenton, McNair, Culpepper, Testaverde, Moon and Cunningham come to mind off the bat. As someone else mentioned some bad QB's have won SBs and Joe even won a playoff game completing only 4 passes. How about Big Bens first SB?

 

 

Your definition of great/elite is alot looser than mine.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

Problem is... there's many QBs who have won a SB. There's also some that have won multiple QBs.

 

So when judging those QBs against each other... how do you do it?

 

 

Judging QB's is not just about SB's.It's also about stats,the eye test,how they played in the biggest games,the type of talent they were surrounded with,the length of their career,how long they were able to play at a high level and consistency from game to game.I only went on a rant about using wins and SB's as a way to judge quarterbacks because  you and few other people tried to dismiss that as just a team stat.Quarterbacks have to big of an impact on a teams success to not credit them or blame them for a teams wins and losses.It's obviously not a clear cut thing because sometimes a bad QB can win on a good team  and  good QB can lose and a bad team,but those instances aren't the norm.They're also usually a blip in that players career.Trent Dilfer won a SB but that one year of success was a blip in an otherwise bad career.Drew Brees went 8-8  and missed the playoffs but that was a blip in a otherwise successful career.Those instances were flukish.It's no coincidence that the teams with great QB's win year after year after year.That's why you can't just brush off SB wins as purely a team stat even though it's a team achievement.

[redrum52]

Your definition of great/elite is alot looser than mine.

I'll give you Culpepper, but if you consider Flacco great, then I'd find it funny if you leave the other guys off your list.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

I'll give you Culpepper, but if you consider Flacco great, then I'd find it funny if you leave the other guys off your list.

 

I don't consider Flacco to be one of the greats though lol.Favre,Peyton,Brady,Montana,Marino,Unitas,Elway and Brees are/were great and elite.Nothing about guys like McNair,McNabb and Testevarde screams elite to me.McNair and McNabb were both pretty good in the early 2000's but I never considered them to be elite.Plus,McNabb was infamous for choking in big games.I was too young to witness all of Testevarde's career,but from the looks of it he only had 2 or 3 good years in an incredibly average career.Don't be fooled by his career numbers.If you really consider those guys greats,then are guys like Stafford,Wilson,Luck,Ryan and Cutler some of the greats/elites of the new era to you?Because a few of those guys are actually better than the guys you listed.Also,judging from your list I see you must love running quarterbacks.With the exception of a few QB's,I've never been high on that style of play so that's probably a big reason why we have two different idea's of what defines a great player.

[redrum52]

I don't consider Flacco to be one of the greats though lol.Favre,Peyton,Brady,Montana,Marino,Unitas,Elway and Brees are/were great and elite.Nothing about guys like McNair,McNabb and Testevarde screams elite to me.McNair and McNabb were both pretty good in the early 2000's but I never considered them to be elite.Plus,McNabb was infamous for choking in big games.I was too young to witness all of Testevarde's career,but from the looks of it he only had 2 or 3 good years in an incredibly average career.Don't be fooled by his career numbers.If you really consider those guys greats,then are guys like Stafford,Wilson,Luck,Ryan and Cutler some of the greats/elites of the new era to you?Because a few of those guys are actually better than the guys you listed.Also,judging from your list I see you must love running quarterbacks.With the exception of a few QB's,I've never been high on that style of play so that's probably a big reason why we have two different idea's of what defines a great player.

I didn't say greats as in all time... I meant a great QB.  That's why my first post mentioned not being in the very top tier.  If that's what you meant then you can knock a lot of guys off my list, but I get what you're saying.

 

I'll com back to this post later, cause I'm not typing what I mean.

[Georgehd]

Joe is a good quarterback but I think for Joe to make it to the next level is beyond his ability because of pocket protection which is also out of his hands if he had better protection he'd be an elite quarterback.

[Bruce_Almty]

So has it been decided as to whether Joe Cool is becoming good?  

[Inqui]

Still a good QB, just had a bad game.

[Raving_Heathen]

Joe is a good quarterback but I think for Joe to make it to the next level is beyond his ability because of pocket protection which is also out of his hands if he had better protection he'd be an elite quarterback.

 

I don't think it's coincidence that QBs like Peyton, Brady, and Rodgers seem to have "good" O-lines year in and year out... or for that matter, good receivers year in and year out.

 

I think Flacco is a "good" QB with rare flashes of greatness, but I think it's clear at this point he won't ever be in those other QBs' classes. He's in that second tier with guys like Eli and Roethlisberger.

[Militant X 1]

Still a good QB, just had a bad game.

Great point! 

 

But when Joe looks bad...man he really looks bad imo.

 

@Mili

[The Raven]

I don't think it's coincidence that QBs like Peyton, Brady, and Rodgers seem to have "good" O-lines year in and year out... or for that matter, good receivers year in and year out.

 

I think Flacco is a "good" QB with rare flashes of greatness, but I think it's clear at this point he won't ever be in those other QBs' classes. He's in that second tier with guys like Eli and Roethlisberger.

 

So, do you also think it was just a coincidence that Brady played like pure crap when his line was in shambles at the start of this season?

 

No. It's fact. Good QBs looks better because their teams actually build around their QB. New England has gotten weapons and protection for Brady. Denver went above and beyond to get toys for Manning. To chalk it up to coincidence is just dumb.

[beasy2487]

My issue with Flacco is that we have no idea who he is. Honestly I think Fluke-O might not be the worst nickname for him because everything seems to he a fluke. Good and bad. You have no idea what you're going to get game to game and just simply can't count on the guy. He might play well, he might crap the bed. You just never know.

[Raving_Heathen]

 

So, do you also think it was just a coincidence that Brady played like pure crap when his line was in shambles at the start of this season?

 

No. It's fact. Good QBs looks better because their teams actually build around their QB. New England has gotten weapons and protection for Brady. Denver went above and beyond to get toys for Manning. To chalk it up to coincidence is just dumb.

 

Well first of all, when someone starts off a sentence with, "I don't think it's coincidence...", it's meant to imply that what they're about to say is NOT a coincidence.

 

Second, you're pointing to a small sample size of bad games there with Brady (and let's throw in Rodgers at the beginning of the year too)... A few bad, outlier games a year because the protection isn't there isn't Flacco's MO here as it is with these other QBs... Flacco is not great 80% of the time... If you're being generous, he probably only has a few great games sprinkled with mostly mediocre ones and bookended with a few HORRIFIC games every year. That's his MO year in and year out. Guys like Peyton, Brady, and Rodgers make their lines better. They're better at reading defenses, adjusting to the blitz, sliding protection around, making better decisions and getting the ball out quicker, throwing guys open, etc, etc.

 

Also saying Brady is great because the Pats build around him is what's dumb. Other than Randy Moss, Brady has been throwing to no name receivers his entire career. Also Peyton took over an anemic offense in Denver and turned it into one of the highest scoring offenses in history. Also you act like Peyton's never had to deal with key injuries to his OL and play behind makeshift lines. Last year he lost Clady at the beginning of the year, and Peyton didn't miss a beat. So no, that's NOT a coincidence.

[Moderator 3]

Still a good QB, just had a bad game.

He had bad parts. He also had his good moments. That pass to Smith that should have won the game was pure "Good Flacco".

[Static]

Still a good QB, just had a bad game.

 

2 straights 2INT games.

 

 

Thats not okay. 

[frozen joe flacco fan]

As most of you know, I'm one of Joe's biggest advocates. That being said, he stunk up the proverbial

field today. His two pics were atrocious. That being said, he did not push off on the defender when

Steve Smith, Sr. was correctly called for PI. And, he was not playing defense when our "stellar"

defensive backfield could not make a defensive stop on 3rd & long at several crucial moments of truth

in the game. Yes, the loss of Jimmy Smith hurt us but who stepped up in the defensive backfield? Was

Elvis even in the house today? AND, he was not in the game when Cincy's line surge pushed our D-line

5 yards into the endzone on their final TD --- a QB sneak. What would Ray Lewis have doneon that play?

No, it was another coulda, shoulda, woulda team loss. Goodbye, Coach Harbaugh!

[PerpetuallyBored74]

As most of you know, I'm one of Joe's biggest advocates. That being said, he stunk up the proverbial

field today. His two pics were atrocious. That being said, he did not push off on the defender when

Steve Smith, Sr. was correctly called for PI. And, he was not playing defense when our "stellar"

defensive backfield could not make a defensive stop on 3rd & long at several crucial moments of truth

in the game. Yes, the loss of Jimmy Smith hurt us but who stepped up in the defensive backfield? Was

Elvis even in the house today? AND, he was not in the game when Cincy's line surge pushed our D-line

5 yards into the endzone on their final TD --- a QB sneak. What would Ray Lewis have doneon that play?

No, it was another coulda, shoulda, woulda team loss. Goodbye, Coach Harbaugh!

 

The first pick is on Joe for staring down Torrey. The second pick is on Torrey for not watching where he's going: how often do you see a WR run into a guy on a crossing pattern where it's not supposed to be a pick play? And even on the first pick, if Torrey had any situational awareness, he'd realize he can't just stop and wait for the ball, that he has to come back for it. Flacco would have a few less INTs if he had a #2 WR with even average football IQ.

We'll never know how good Flacco can be until we get a complete WR/TE corp that can stay relatively healthy.

Seems like too many of our more talented players are fragile/injury prone/unlucky while the durable guys are mostly our worst players.

[ravensnick]

I don't consider Flacco to be one of the greats though lol.Favre,Peyton,Brady,Montana,Marino,Unitas,Elway and Brees are/were great and elite.Nothing about guys like McNair,McNabb and Testevarde screams elite to me.McNair and McNabb were both pretty good in the early 2000's but I never considered them to be elite.Plus,McNabb was infamous for choking in big games.I was too young to witness all of Testevarde's career,but from the looks of it he only had 2 or 3 good years in an incredibly average career.Don't be fooled by his career numbers.If you really consider those guys greats,then are guys like Stafford,Wilson,Luck,Ryan and Cutler some of the greats/elites of the new era to you?Because a few of those guys are actually better than the guys you listed.Also,judging from your list I see you must love running quarterbacks.With the exception of a few QB's,I've never been high on that style of play so that's probably a big reason why we have two different idea's of what defines a great player.

McNair was close at his Prime, testevarde was pretty good a couple year, but McNabb was elite. Had he won a SB, he would have been a lock for the HOF.

[Ausman]

I rest my case Joe not a QB that will win us another superbowl. We need a smarter QB.

[ravensnick]

As most of you know, I'm one of Joe's biggest advocates. That being said, he stunk up the proverbial

field today. His two pics were atrocious. That being said, he did not push off on the defender when

Steve Smith, Sr. was correctly called for PI. And, he was not playing defense when our "stellar"

defensive backfield could not make a defensive stop on 3rd & long at several crucial moments of truth

in the game. Yes, the loss of Jimmy Smith hurt us but who stepped up in the defensive backfield? Was

Elvis even in the house today? AND, he was not in the game when Cincy's line surge pushed our D-line

5 yards into the endzone on their final TD --- a QB sneak. What would Ray Lewis have doneon that play?

No, it was another coulda, shoulda, woulda team loss. Goodbye, Coach Harbaugh!

Elvis got us at least two huge holding penalties. They actually really help us stop the bengals momentum

[ravensnick]

Marino, Kelly, McNabb, Tarkenton, McNair, Culpepper, Testaverde, Moon and Cunningham come to mind off the bat. As someone else mentioned some bad QB's have won SBs and Joe even won a playoff game completing only 4 passes. How about Big Bens first SB?

I'd give you Marino, Kelly, Tarkenton, Moon, and Cunningham. But, tarkenton , Marino, and kelly went to a combined 9 superbowl and lost them all.