Is Joe Flacco Becoming a Good QB?

[Gordo52]

Suggestion? You won't believe how bad is was before we changed it once already.

Wow, makes me curious too. Maybe "Flacco progression"? Just throwing something out there

[Inqui]

I think this "system" is here to stay and it'll be much like the defense. We've run this hybrid type organized chaos defense for years. Each coach puts his particular stamp on it but the defense really stays he same. Any DC coming to coach here understands they are running "The Ravens Defense". Rex was more of a man coverage bring the house type, while Pees likes to mix up his coverages on the back end and ask the front 7 to win. I see the offense being the same moving forward.

 

Whether it's a guy like Kyle Shanny, which I doubt or some young coach who already runs a variation of this offense but with a different style. Ultimately I see Kubes staying for his full 3 year contract.

I certainly hope so, on both accounts. One thing about this offence is that it seems simple enough for all the players to pick up easily, and you'd think that carries on to being easy to recreate with someone else who spends enough time with the master playbook.

 

Of course, Juan Castillo not appearing to be in hot demand any time soon doesn't hurt. It all starts up front, so as long as we have Joe and the line playing like this, then we can't go THAT far wrong (surely....).

[Inqui]

It was something that gave no indication of what the thread is about...something like "What are your thoughts".

I... don't want to be given a warning so I'll keep my true thoughts on this thread and the initial post to myself for the time being. That said,

 

Wow, makes me curious too. Maybe "Flacco progression"? Just throwing something out there

This might be a bit more accurate.

[The Mom Gene]

Yay a Flacco thread

We know....  We absolutely love our QB, and understand the need of the fans to have one.

[The Mom Gene]

Wow, makes me curious too. Maybe "Flacco progression"? Just throwing something out there

Love the puns.

[Tank 92]

URGENT Troll detector needed at mod central. URGENT

[The Mom Gene]

URGENT Troll detector needed at mod central. URGENT

Just a little sarcasm is all....  Why ask if we think Flacco is a good QB...  When we all know he is.

[Gtown Purple]

Joe has always been a good qb. His winning percentage speaks for itself. Not all of those wins were because he got carried by someone else. Like anyone else, Joe is affected by all kinds of elements around him. His play this year is ever more bolstered by a good supporting cast.

[Tiz]

I didn't compare Dilfer to Marino once. I did mention Montana, though. I don't think it's a dumb statement to rank him over Marino.

You stated that you'd rank Montana over Marino due to sbs. That's why I pointed out that the basis being a sb champ vs a sb loser was dumb. Its all to easy for one to take a hit and compare to another then say the difference is the ring but when you rely in the ring as the sole reason then ill point out that the sb ring is due to the team not the player.

So may be you shouldn't state the ring is the reason why Montana is better.

[Ravenslifer]

Interesting that when Joe finally gets a competent OC and a complete supporting cast, he starts putting up the numbers that his detractors say prove he isn't elite (all except for Khaled Elsayed, that is).

[Tiz]

I think this "system" is here to stay and it'll be much like the defense. We've run this hybrid type organized chaos defense for years. Each coach puts his particular stamp on it but the defense really stays he same. Any DC coming to coach here understands they are running "The Ravens Defense". Rex was more of a man coverage bring the house type, while Pees likes to mix up his coverages on the back end and ask the front 7 to win. I see the offense being the same moving forward.

 

Whether it's a guy like Kyle Shanny, which I doubt or some young coach who already runs a variation of this offense but with a different style. Ultimately I see Kubes staying for his full 3 year contract.

Maybe not system per se but what he has learned from Kubiak is here to stay. Many times you hear that he's learned to take the short routes when they are there versus always trying for the big play. That's the biggest difference in our success and I doubt joe will drop that method just because Kubiak leaves

[beanfigger]

Everyone who was sick of hearing excuses for Flacco's low numbers and inconsistent play is quick to bust out their own list of excuses when those things start to change for the better.

Looking for consistency? This is the fourth time in seven years that he finds himself on a team that starts the season 5-2. I guess we'll just wait to hear why that's all thanks to everyone else and not him.

[Wildabeast88]

My biggest problem is that the media turns things to make or break who they want. Perfect example Flacco doesn't have Peyton, Brees, Rodgers numbers but then it's about winning which he has done plenty but Russell Wilson is elite with inferior numbers but wins at a similar clip. That's my biggest problem. Matt Ryan is great even though he's had better weapons throughout his career but much less success overall even though the numbers are close in comparison. I just want Joe to get his due. Bottom line he is in my opinion around the 4th-7th best QB overall behind Manning Brees Rodgers but certainly better than Ryan Romo Cutler and Stafford

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

Yes Dan is better than multiple super bowl winning Qbs. Super bowl wins is a team thing not an individual thing.

You'd be a damn fool if you considered dilfer or Eli or doug Williams better than Marino.

I'm pretty sure we could add Simms, hostetler, mcnahon, rypien, and brad Johnson to the list too

Stop being foolish and acting like a super bowl win makes a player the best at his position

When someone compares Montana and Marino and uses Super Bowls as a argument to put Montana ahead and then going to the list of other crappy QBs that have won a Super Bowl to try and refute the argument is being just as much a fool.

No ones trying to say winning a Super Bowl trumps all other comparisons, but when comparing 2 guys that are on a similar level skill/talent wise considering their ability to win especially in big games is not only logical but it's imperative. The point of playing is winning so it's a factor that can't be overlooked. It's hard to quantify but there are guys who just, for whatever reason, seem to shrink from their great talents in the big game and others who just seem to elevate and play above their ability with the game on the line.

Just like saying it takes an entire team to win a Super Bowl, there are other factors involved than just QB ability that lead to statistics like talent of receivers, offensive line, offensive scheme and play-calling. As we're seeing here in Baltimore, putting our QB in a better environment is leading to him having the statistics to back te argument for his top 5-8 talent many of us have seen for years. Is Joe all the sudden a much better QB? No. He just finally has the right surrounding to display his talents the right way.

I think in any player comparisons.. Any sport at any position.. If you've got 2 guys with comparable talent and stats winning big games and championships is THE deciding factor. No, winning doesn't elevate clearly inferior players above a vastly superior one who hasn't won... But don't act like that's what anyone here is trying to do.

It's a fact that as great as Peyton is an has been, he hasn't won as many championships as he could and should. And it's not just about winning, his statistics also drop significantly in the playoffs. It has to be a part of the conversation when considering his place in history. Just like Flaccos winning ways and ability to elevate in the big game have to be a part of the equation when considering his place among today's quarterbacks.

For the record I'd take Montana, Unitas or Brady over the Peyton's and Marinos of the world any day.

[Tiz]

When someone compares Montana and Marino and uses Super Bowls as a argument to put Montana ahead and then going to the list of other crappy QBs that have won a Super Bowl to try and refute the argument is being just as much a fool.

Try reading first.

If you claim that player a is better than player b solely because player a was on a super bowl winning team you'll get called out every time.

Don't get mad because the argument was weak and based on a team accomplishment.

[PolishRifle]

Again, nobody is suggesting the SB is irrelevant. From what I can tell, my guess would be that when YOU evaluate a QB, whether or not that QB has won a Lombardi probably accounts for 80-90% of your opinion of that QB. My point is... that number is way, way, way high.

 

Really? 80-90%? Because I dared to say, that Joe Montana is better than Marino? The comparison is so outlandish, that I would have to put this much weigth into his SB victories to justify THIS post?

 

Dan has better stats than Joe Montana. I guess he and Peyton are better than Montana, right?

 

Whatever, this discussion doesn't even have anything to do with Flacco anymore. I'm out.

 

I still don't think Joe is "becoming" a good QB. He just isn't being held back by poor playcalling and not having a go-to receiver. If I remember correctly, people used to claim, that those were just excuses. I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so.

[Ravensfan23]

Maybe not system per se but what he has learned from Kubiak is here to stay. Many times you hear that he's learned to take the short routes when they are there versus always trying for the big play. That's the biggest difference in our success and I doubt joe will drop that method just because Kubiak leaves

 

But that speaks to system. You can't take shorter throws that just aren't there. Previously our short pass game was nothing more then hitting the TE or a check down to the RBs. Now we have slants, screens, option routes, shallow crosses, delayed crossed and more. If you don't have those type of routes built into your system then it's near impossible to run them.

 

It's not about Flacco being taught to take shorter routes, that's something that Flacco always did when required, just look at any 2 minute drive or any drive we went uptempo. The difference with Kubes is that Flacco has been taught to tie his footwork into his reads. The difference is that we have a competent OC that understands the importance of scheming a short passing game. It's not like we are running the same plays but all of a sudden because of Kubes Flacco is taking shorter routes. Any other coach that comes in to call this offense will probably have a strong understanding of the WCO, instead of a completely different style

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

I love how people bring up the one anomaly(Dan Marino)to the good QB's win it all argument whenever this conversation come up.GREAT QB'S WIN SUPERBOWLS!Period!You could probably count on one hand how many great/elite QB's in the superbowl era didn't win a SB.Go look at the list of QB's who make it to the playoffs every year and it's always a list of the best QB's in the league.There might be 1 or 2 outliers per year but even then I bet that QB/QB's had a statistically good year.The other argument that I love seeing is "why don't you use win's/superbowls to judge RB's,ILB's or an O-lineman?".The answer to that is simple.It's almost impossible for a QB to have a good year and not win alot of games that season.You can't say that about any other position on the team.Think about how often you see a QB light up the stat sheet and miss the playoffs.Doesn't happen very often does it?Now think about how a guy like Daryl Smith has been a stud for his entire career and only made the playoffs once.Or how Patrick Willis was playing insanely good football in the first few years of his career but  didn't start making the playoffs until his team started getting good QB play.Bad QB play/bad QB's = losses.Good QB's/good QB play = wins.That's not an opinion,it's a fact.There's too much evidence for anyone to think otherwise.That's the reason why QB's are judged by whether or not they can win it all.

[flynismo]

We know....  We absolutely love our QB, and understand the need of the fans to have one.

Who's this "we"? Got a mouse in your pocket??

[The Mom Gene]

Who's this "we"? Got a mouse in your pocket??

Why Yes Fly, I do...... Many Mice...  And there are many mice that aren't in my pocket that would agree.

[BOLDnPurPnBlacK]

When someone compares Montana and Marino and uses Super Bowls as a argument to put Montana ahead and then going to the list of other crappy QBs that have won a Super Bowl to try and refute the argument is being just as much a fool.

Try reading first.

If you claim that player a is better than player b solely because player a was on a super bowl winning team you'll get called out every time.

Don't get mad because the argument was weak and based on a team accomplishment.

Saying Montana (player a) is better than Marino (player B ) isn't based solely on Super Bowls, but the fact that you can use that word in the plural form with Montana and not at all with Marino certainly helps.

And no one ever made Super Bowls the basis for comparison, just a deciding factor in an otherwise close comparison. Oh and judging qbs on stats alone is stupid too. Carson Palmer isn't an elite QB... I'd have a hard time buying any legitimate argument that he's better than Flacco but his stats say he's one of the best in the league. And I suppose you think Stafford is also a better QB than Flacco.

If you don't id love to hear why he's not because there's no statistical argument to say he's worse than Flacco other than wins and a Super Bowl.

[youne]

He's improved on the fumbling greatly, but the ints should be going down in this system.  Also, that 5 td game is padding his stats, but we'll see how turns out.

 

Let me guess - you *didn't* dismiss the 5 interception game against Buffalo last year as an outlier.

[redrum52]

Let me guess - you *didn't* dismiss the 5 interception game against Buffalo last year as an outlier.

In the grand sense of things I did becuase it's not a normal performance. It pissed me off, but those games are abnormalities. Nice try though.

[The Mom Gene]

He's getting rid of the ball better and faster on forced plays too...  taking less sacks. 

[beanfigger]

This quick-decision, spread the ball around game is what he excelled in during college at UD (though many seemed to question if he could manage in a system like this for some reason). I just re-watched a game against Navy in Annapolis where Joe led the Hens to a 59-52 victory, and it was beautiful to witness even today. This year he's playing like that, and I think it's long overdue.

[JoeyFlex5]

"Ray Lewis and the defense win the games in spite of Joe"

 

"Anquan Boldin wins the games in spite of Joe"

 

"Gary Kubiak wins the games in spite of Joe"

 

Yep, you're definitely onto something.

all that needed to be said.. has been said.

[gabefergy]

I checked PFF's historical charts (some of the ones free to non-paying dues like myself) and he's never sniffed the top 10 in deep ball accuracy. So, if hes currently 2nd this year, I'd love to see the chart. Not saying he isnt. Would truly love to see it for 2014 thus far.

He is rated the 2nd highest this season by PFF, but historically he has been good not great at deep ball accuracy. He has been in the top 10 a couple seasons, 2010 and 2012 as well. I think part of that is due to his receiving targets and also partly due to the fact that he often just chucks the ball deep as a throw away when no one is open.

This metric does take drops into account but it doesnt account for PI penalties. As Callahan has pointed out a few times Flacco is always at the top of the leader board in penalty yards forced by PI. So his arm is generating a lot of yards that don't show up in the stat sheet as well.

[1/28/01]

He is rated the 2nd highest this season by PFF, but historically he has been good not great at deep ball accuracy. He has been in the top 10 a couple seasons, 2010 and 2012 as well. I think part of that is due to his receiving targets and also partly due to the fact that he often just chucks the ball deep as a throw away when no one is open.

This metric does take drops into account but it doesnt account for PI penalties. As Callahan has pointed out a few a times Flacco is always at the top of the leader board in penalty yards forced by PI. So his arm is generating a lot of yards that don't show up in the stat sheet as well.

Not beating Joe up here, just correcting a myth about his deep ball accuracy and effectiveness.

From PFF regarding 2013 and 2012:

"Highlighting the myth about Flacco’s arm, the Ravens’ signal caller had the second worst Deep Accuracy of any quarterback in 2013, and had just one touchdown and eight interceptions. This comes a year after his 11 touchdowns and zero interceptions lead to claims that he was the best deep thrower in the league, despite finishing 18th with a Deep Acc% of 40.2% in 2012. Still, his accuracy on deep passes dropped by 14.1% in 2013, with only Jake Locker (23.3%) finishing with a lower mark."

He was not top 10 in 2012. Didn't bother to check 2010, but I assume not top 10 there either.

[rmcjacket23]

Really? 80-90%? Because I dared to say, that Joe Montana is better than Marino? The comparison is so outlandish, that I would have to put this much weigth into his SB victories to justify THIS post?

 

 

Whatever, this discussion doesn't even have anything to do with Flacco anymore. I'm out.

 

I still don't think Joe is "becoming" a good QB. He just isn't being held back by poor playcalling and not having a go-to receiver. If I remember correctly, people used to claim, that those were just excuses. I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so.

OK, then if 80-90% isn't accurate, put a number on it?

 

What percentage, in your opinion, is SB success in the overall landscape of judging a QBs overall career success?

 

Obviously, there has to be a percentage on it, otherwise this argument wouldn't exist. Judging by your stance on it, that number would obviously have to be higher than 50%.

 

Can you really say, based on what you've said previously, that my assessment that you treat SB victories/success as 80-90% of how you rate QBs as unreasonable?

[gabefergy]

Not beating Joe up here, just correcting a myth about his deep ball accuracy and effectiveness.

From PFF regarding 2013 and 2012:

"Highlighting the myth about Flacco’s arm, the Ravens’ signal caller had the second worst Deep Accuracy of any quarterback in 2013, and had just one touchdown and eight interceptions. This comes a year after his 11 touchdowns and zero interceptions lead to claims that he was the best deep thrower in the league, despite finishing 18th with a Deep Acc% of 40.2% in 2012. Still, his accuracy on deep passes dropped by 14.1% in 2013, with only Jake Locker (23.3%) finishing with a lower mark."

He was not top 10 in 2012. Didn't bother to check 2010, but I assume not top 10 there either.

 

 

I was looking at all games which includes his postseason. He finished 7th overall. He completed 43.1% of his passes in 2012 after factoring out drops for 16 TDs and 0 Ints. Pretty awesome stats.

 

In 2011 he finished 12th overall, completing 35.2% of his passes for 8 TDs and 3 Ints.

 

In 2010 he finished 8th overall, completing 43.4% of his passes for 15 TDs and 5 Ints. 

 

In 2009 he finished 9th overall, completing 41.7% of deep passes for 8 TDs and 6 Ints.

 

This is using the standard filter on PFF. If you include the QBs who barely threw downfield his overall ranking drops, but I would say your initial statement that he doesn't even sniff the top 10 in deep ball passing is incorrect.

 

If anything Flacco has gotten better with his accuracy  as he develops as a QB. Overall he has stayed around 40% completion percentage which is pretty impressive considering most of his deep passes are targets much further than the baseline 20 yards downfield.