Is Joe Flacco Becoming a Good QB?

[redrum52]

Stick to football, people.

How long before my points go down? I've been a good boy...

[GrimCoconut]

Rashad Greene...

Yeah, that's who I was thinking of, to be honest. Lol. I see him as a perfect fit with Joe. 

[ravensdfan]

Next it'll be Toluca was reading between the lines as to what Vinny said. Then, it came from the giant Raven in the sky

 

Don't taunt the big Raven in the sky dude!

[BSHU_Miami]

It was brought up and discussed on the Vinny and Rob show today. Vinny just read between the lines, vinny is critisized by some but usually spot on with reguard to the Ravens and NFL.

Oh that explains it. 

[codizzle]

https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/532930910245912576

Cam though?

[hawkprey]

https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/532930910245912576

Cam though?

Cam takes a lot of hits while running. They are not as vicious as hits taken while standing still.

[Tank 92]

Cam takes a lot of hits while running. They are not as vicious as hits taken while standing still.

 

 

good point.  He runs a LOT.

[redrum52]

Cam takes a lot of hits while running. They are not as vicious as hits taken while standing still.

Did you see the game vs the Eagles? His o line sucks.

[hawkprey]

Did you see the game vs the Eagles? His o line sucks.

No, but I did see clips of him holding onto the ball for too long, and I did hear him and his coaches call him out for playing poorly and I assume holding onto the ball too long is part of that.

 

Cam's drastically high hit count is all because of him running the ball. I'll bet if you only counted hits in the pocket, he wouldn't be in the top 20. Cam has attempted 423 rushes in his 4-year career, and most rushes tend to end with a hit.

[redrum52]

No, but I did see clips of him holding onto the ball for too long, and I did hear him and his coaches call him out for playing poorly and I assume holding onto the ball too long is part of that.

Cam's drastically high hit count is all because of him running the ball. I'll bet if you only counted hits in the pocket, he wouldn't be in the top 20. Cam has attempted 423 rushes in his 4-year career, and most rushes tend to end with a hit.

Don't get me wrong. He's still very much at blame but it was awful. He got sacked 9 times I think and it looked like he constantly had someone in his face.

[CalvinSmoke]

All Joe need is protection. Even more so now that he is getting older, he sdoesmt just stand there and get smoked like he used to. Give him time and he normally puts it wherever it needs to be. That's all there is to it.

[CalvinSmoke]

No, but I did see clips of him holding onto the ball for too long, and I did hear him and his coaches call him out for playing poorly and I assume holding onto the ball too long is part of that.

Cam's drastically high hit count is all because of him running the ball. I'll bet if you only counted hits in the pocket, he wouldn't be in the top 20. Cam has attempted 423 rushes in his 4-year career, and most rushes tend to end with a hit.

I watch the Panthers, and they badly miss Jordan Gross, he's getting killed in the pocket. He's not running to run nearly as much as he used to this year

[jimmypowder]

Reading between the lines , Kubiak is certainly puzzled about Joe's inconsistency . One game 123 qbr ,next 65 ,next 110 , next 45 .

Joe is certainly an above average QB , right below the elites ,Manning , Rodgers,etc .

I think Kubiak and Joe will come to an agreement over the bye on a game plan that will successfully

get us into the playoffs .

[ravensfan520]

After Flacco's great run in the super bowl he has turned back to an ok qb that still forces bad throws and over throws under throws wrs. Flacco lovers will say it's the lines fault or the wrs but here's the problem look at the contract he is getting...

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nflnation&id=149522

top 5 of immovable contracts.

[ravensfan520]

Don't get me wrong. He's still very much at blame but it was awful. He got sacked 9 times I think and it looked like he constantly had someone in his face.

Teams are picking up on that and know that Flacco holds onto the ball doesn't like throwing to his check and always looking for the big play so they blitz and have someone sitting their waiting to pick him off.... so that's on Flacco. If we can't beat the blitz teams will keep sending it. Even the best lines can't stop it every time.

[rmcjacket23]

After Flacco's great run in the super bowl he has turned back to an ok qb that still forces bad throws and over throws under throws wrs. Flacco lovers will say it's the lines fault or the wrs but here's the problem look at the contract he is getting...

http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=nflnation&id=149522

top 5 of immovable contracts.

I'm assuming you didn't read the article, because you wouldn't have posted this if you did. I'll highlight the relevant material for the moment...

 

"Relevant terms: Flacco's cap figures are reasonable in 2014 ($14.8 million) and 2015 ($14.55 million)"

[redrum52]

Teams are picking up on that and know that Flacco holds onto the ball doesn't like throwing to his check and always looking for the big play so they blitz and have someone sitting their waiting to pick him off.... so that's on Flacco. If we can't beat the blitz teams will keep sending it. Even the best lines can't stop it every time.

My comment wasn't about Flacco, but I do agree, at times he holds onto the ball too long.

[RaineV1]

I don't think he holds onto the ball too long, I think it's that receivers aren't getting open quickly. It's either hold onto it or try to force it into a nearly non-existent window.

[rmcjacket23]

I don't think he holds onto the ball too long, I think it's that receivers aren't getting open quickly. It's either hold onto it or try to force it into a nearly non-existent window.

Its a lose lose situation with the fanbase frankly.

 

You've got one section of the fanbase that thinks that the receivers are always open short/intermediate and that Joe simply chooses not to throw to them, and the other part of the fanbase thinks that the receivers are never open short/intermediate and that he has to hold onto the ball to let the play develop.

 

But ultimately, he can't win by attempting to solve the problem in either scenario. If he follows what some fans say and assumes that his guys are open short/intermediate all the time and therefore gets the ball out quickly... guess what happens when they aren't, in fact, open.... at best an incomplete pass, and at worst an interception, which that very same fanbase will no doubt blame on Joe.

 

If he instead holds onto the ball, he risks facing obviously more pressure in the pocket, and his receivers have probably ended their route by that point. Therefore, best case scenario is he's forced to make a tough decision in a tough pocket, and worst case scenario is he gets sacked/fumbles/throws an interception. He gets the blame for that as well.

 

So ultimately... where's the winning scenario? Probably somewhere in between. No REASONABLE fan thinks that this receiving core is highly talented and highly skilled, and therefore consistently getting open at will on a weekly basis. There's just no game-tape to support that claim, and I think even the people who claim that recognize it. But there is also no disputing that if you take away Joe's first read on a pass play, he tends to struggle finding second and third reads unless the offensive line is blocking incredibly well on a consistent basis.

[redrum52]

Its a lose lose situation with the fanbase frankly.

 

You've got one section of the fanbase that thinks that the receivers are always open short/intermediate and that Joe simply chooses not to throw to them, and the other part of the fanbase thinks that the receivers are never open short/intermediate and that he has to hold onto the ball to let the play develop.

 

But ultimately, he can't win by attempting to solve the problem in either scenario. If he follows what some fans say and assumes that his guys are open short/intermediate all the time and therefore gets the ball out quickly... guess what happens when they aren't, in fact, open.... at best an incomplete pass, and at worst an interception, which that very same fanbase will no doubt blame on Joe.

 

If he instead holds onto the ball, he risks facing obviously more pressure in the pocket, and his receivers have probably ended their route by that point. Therefore, best case scenario is he's forced to make a tough decision in a tough pocket, and worst case scenario is he gets sacked/fumbles/throws an interception. He gets the blame for that as well.

 

So ultimately... where's the winning scenario? Probably somewhere in between. No REASONABLE fan thinks that this receiving core is highly talented and highly skilled, and therefore consistently getting open at will on a weekly basis. There's just no game-tape to support that claim, and I think even the people who claim that recognize it. But there is also no disputing that if you take away Joe's first read on a pass play, he tends to struggle finding second and third reads unless the offensive line is blocking incredibly well on a consistent basis.

Good points and I actually have to agree.

[wayne]

you was talking about that 4 game run lol.

 

you quoted me when i was talking about that 4 game run and you said he had better pieces on that run then he has at this very moment.

 

that was the whole discussion.

 

i even compaired the pieces he had on that run with the pieces he has now.

 

also again i wasent bashing flacco.

i said i expect him to do better then what he has shown so far.

 

SMH that people consider that bashing these days.

 

they expect elam to play as an all pro.

expect upshaw to be an elite pass rusher.

expect torrey to be on the same level as aj green and such , its all fine and legitimate critism.

 

but when someone even mentions that flacco should play a lil bit better its considerd bashing hahahahha

 

hell some here even wants to put flacco in the same class as brady and manning saying that weapons are the only things that seperate them.

 

this board is always good for a laugh lol

the homerism is real.....

This is my issue too. Stop looking for every other reason other than Flacco why our O stinks it up at times b/c a lot of the times it starts and stops with Flacco. It's our HC, it's our OC, it's the defense,,,, our wr's suck, our RB suck, oline is horrible and all of a sudden Yanda went from best guard in the league to the worst. Blame it on the rain..... it's neva Flacco fault!

[redrum52]

This is my issue too. Stop looking for every other reason other than Flacco why our O stinks it up at times b/c a lot of the times it starts and stops with Flacco. It's our HC, it's our OC, it's the defense,,,, our wr's suck, our RB suck, oline is horrible and all of a sudden Yanda went from best guard in the league to the worst. Blame it on the rain..... it's neva Flacco fault!

[beanfigger]

Good points and I actually have to agree.

Quoting you because his post was too long. Flacco's responsibility on olays like that is recognizing when pressure is coming and getting his receivers on the same page as him in terms of hot reads. You see other teams make seemingly harmless 4-6 yard catches early in the downs set, but those add up to not only better numbers but easier conversions later in the series and other opportunities that will open up later in games as a result. I feel like that part of the scenario has always been missing from our offense. We throw some slants every now and then, but it isn't a primary concern for defenses against us. The blame can be spread out between OC, QB and receivers, but ultimately Flacco needs to take more charge at the line and set these up when defenses are showing pressure.

Now when the line gets straight up beat against a four-man rush, that's another story.

[ravensfan520]

I'm assuming you didn't read the article, because you wouldn't have posted this if you did. I'll highlight the relevant material for the moment...

"Relevant terms: Flacco's cap figures are reasonable in 2014 ($14.8 million) and 2015 ($14.55 million)"

I read it and noticed that in 2016 and further we are going have extend his contract or drop him and have a ton of dead money. His performance hasn't improved (maybe it will)since then so what to think it will. If you havent noticed if you don't have an elite qb you don't win super bowls or make playoffs... The contracts are so expensive. The last 2 and even the teams that are playing well either have an elite qb or a good qb still playing on his rookie contract... just look at us and the 49ers for example. I hope he can get to the playoffs again but if he doesn't and it becomes 2 years in a row since the contract how many people are not going to believe it's on him... or just say it's everyone else... but if you spend all your money on a few guys you can't surround yourself with enough talent to win.

[beanfigger]

I read it and noticed that in 2016 and further we are going have extend his contract or drop him and have a ton of dead money. His performance hasn't improved (maybe it will)since then so what to think it will. If you havent noticed if you don't have an elite qb you don't win super bowls or make playoffs... The contracts are so expensive. The last 2 and even the teams that are playing well either have an elite qb or a good qb still playing on his rookie contract... just look at us and the 49ers for example. I hope he can get to the playoffs again but if he doesn't and it becomes 2 years in a row since the contract how many people are not going to believe it's on him... or just say it's everyone else... but if you spend all your money on a few guys you can't surround yourself with enough talent to win.

Using the other teams, as you suggest, would point to it being "everybody else" when it comes to this discussion around the league. How many teams have won the Super Bowl AFTER giving their quarterback $100M? Did all these QBs get worse after signing their deals, or did the talent around them peel away? Maybe it happens this year, but the 49ers have less of a chance than we do to make the playoffs. Coincidentally, when did Kap get the big bucks? The Broncos seem to be the team that has figured out how to completely stack a team with talent in spite of a huge QB contract, but that's what happens when you are going all in and playing for now or next year and not concerning yourself with the distant future. Teams with younger QBs have to manage a lot more years after paying their franchise QBs the big bucks.

[Passepartout]

Every QB will have a good game. And a bad game. No QB is perfect whether you are Manning, Brees, Brady, or Flacco. 

[MTRavensFan]

Using the other teams, as you suggest, would point to it being "everybody else" when it comes to this discussion around the league. How many teams have won the Super Bowl AFTER giving their quarterback $100M? Did all these QBs get worse after signing their deals, or did the talent around them peel away? Maybe it happens this year, but the 49ers have less of a chance than we do to make the playoffs. Coincidentally, when did Kap get the big bucks? The Broncos seem to be the team that has figured out how to completely stack a team with talent in spite of a huge QB contract, but that's what happens when you are going all in and playing for now or next year and not concerning yourself with the distant future. Teams with younger QBs have to manage a lot more years after paying their franchise QBs the big bucks.

Really good points.

 

Denver's the perfect example of a team ready to fall right off a cliff with how many players they have in the last year of their rookie contracts - D. Thomas, J. Thomas, Von Miller, Terrance Knighton, to name a few. Free agency's going to decimate them in the next two years. Then Manning retires, and the kid they've been grooming to replace him becomes a FA in 2016, and is going to want to be paid, too. I can see it unravelling very fast, and taking years to rebuild.

[1/28/01]

Every QB will have a good game. And a bad game. No QB is perfect whether you are Manning, Brees, Brady, or Flacco.

Thanks for being super obvious here. Its not a matter of QBs having A good or A bad game. Its to what degree those bad games are and how often they show up.

[rmcjacket23]

I read it and noticed that in 2016 and further we are going have extend his contract or drop him and have a ton of dead money. His performance hasn't improved (maybe it will)since then so what to think it will. If you havent noticed if you don't have an elite qb you don't win super bowls or make playoffs... The contracts are so expensive. The last 2 and even the teams that are playing well either have an elite qb or a good qb still playing on his rookie contract... just look at us and the 49ers for example. I hope he can get to the playoffs again but if he doesn't and it becomes 2 years in a row since the contract how many people are not going to believe it's on him... or just say it's everyone else... but if you spend all your money on a few guys you can't surround yourself with enough talent to win.

Yes, as most people already think, they will be extending Joe in 2016 most likely. I think the Ravens, the fans, and everybody else understood that the day he signed that deal.

 

When you have a cap number near $30M, it really doesn't matter how you're performing, because no team can realistically sustain that for more than maybe one year and still retain or sign the players they'd like to. It doesn't matter if you're Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Brady, etc. A $30M cap number is prohibitive for any team right now, and every team knows that.

 

My entire point is... from 2013-2015, no reasonable person can use the "Joe is making too much money" argument. It simply doesn't hold up.

[wayne]

It's the QB coach, it's our special teams, Ozzie is not getting the type of surrounding cast that Joe needs and he sucks as a GM..........................................................................