Official vent thread vs Falcons

[beanfigger]

I guess I'm just in the minority thinking that ILB was still a position of need. It wasn't our biggest need, but there is a difference between having depth, as everyone is putting it, and having solid starters you can count on, not just to be serviceable, but to make a real impact and help to win. We had one of those. Now we have two, which is how many we need in a 3-4. Now it is not a position of need. We can't always have pro bowlers at every single position. Our secondary is thin, but now worse than our front seven might have been if we had gone CB-WR to start the draft and had the injuries we've already had and fought through thanks to our depth there. The front seven is one of the best in the league, and that generally means another part of the team is not as strong. We lead the league in points allowed, fewer total than even all the teams who have already had a bye week, so it isn't like we crippled ourselves. I also disagree that any position on the front seven is less valuable than the secondary. The front seven is counted on to defend all phases of the opposing offense. That's why teams with dominant front sevens (us, Detroit, etc.) are leading the league in defense and find themselves on teams primed to make a playoff run.

[allblackraven]

does anyone have the clip or GIF of Hill blastin ryan or SSS de-cleating a DB, didn't see those highlights.

Hill's hit was on site earlier:

 

https://vine.co/v/Ob0eTv9ILZ0

[arnie_uk]

And perhaps that's precisely the point... what if the FO or the coaching staff views Arthur Brown as a "miss"? If so, wouldn't it make sense to take Mosley?

I was all for the corner route myself (although I thought safety was more important), though as I warned everybody, its not exactly typical for a first round corner to come in and make a major impact in the league in his rookie year. We saw it take Jimmy Smith basically two full years before he was capable of even starting for this team. Given that Fuller and Gilbert (who's been pretty awful despite being the #1 CB taken) were off the board by the time we picked, it would have likely been between Verrett (good so far), Dennard (situational player) or Bradley Roby (decent, not great).

The problem with taking corners in the first round is that the dividends don't usually pay off in the first year, which means its hard to justify the Ravens being a better team this season because of it. In 3-4 years, who knows what would have happened, though given what we see from Mosley right now, he appears to be a foundational piece in the future.

Keep in mind though that the "BPA" strategy is sort of a BPA with a caveat... the caveat being that the Ravens manipulate our own draft board in a way that makes positions of "need" to have the best players available in it. If the Ravens actually objectively ranked every player on the board, and Johnny Football was the BPA when we drafted, if it was a straight forward BPA strategy, then we should have selected him.

But what is most likely is that when the Ravens create their draft board, they sort of "eliminate" certain players at certain positions based on the fact that we are already deemed as "set" at that position. In most years, there aren't certain positions that we appear to be fully "set" at, but obviously positions like QB and for the last couple years RB would fall under the category of positions where we wouldn't even consider using a first round pick on.

In essence, its sort of a rigged BPA strategy. I would the first-round level of our draft board is filled with players at a handful of specific positions where the team feels the need to upgrade. What separates us from others is that we don't just say "well we have a need at corner" and just automatically take the highest rated corner on our board with whatever pick we have, regardless of when it is.

why do you feel the need to explain everything. He knows how bpa works

[Dewy101]

http://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/2jtdrj/pffs_allstar_team_of_the_week_week_7/

 

PFF has Daryl Smith as an honorable mention( 4.8 ovr / 1.9 run/ 2.2 pass D) and certainly I trust their analyst more than Dewy's

 

"Breakdown: Up until this week Smith had been showing his age a bit this season, performing a step behind the dominant coverage linebacker we saw a year ago. Against the Falcons, however, he showed he can still move sideline-to-sideline with the best of them. The Falcons’ running scheme heavily featured pulling linemen and time after time Smith got to the point of attack before the linemen could. In coverage, Smith kept his four targets in front of him and allowed just three catches for 11 yards.

 

 

Signature Stat: Smith’s six stops were his most in a game since week 10 of last season."

 

 

 

I could make a weekly thread with all the PFF scores since I have access if ya'll would be interested in that?

My analysis is from the PFF rankings. He had the best game of the season against Atlanta but the other 6 weeks he's graded out by PFF as one of the worst ILBs in the league. He still very bad against the run with a -5.1 rating which ranks him 17/20 out of ILBs whose played at least 75% of the snaps. He's 4/20 in coverage with a 1.1 rating but his rating against Atlanta was a +2.2 which has greatly inflated his coverage rank. I have been a little harsh on him though considering there are only 4 ILBs that have graded out positive with at least 75% of snaps. Mosley has been one of them. I still believe that Arthur deserves to be on the active roster on game days.

[Dewy101]

Not everyone on special teams makes tackles... There's other jobs than running down on Kick/punt coverage... There's also returns.. What stat would show you if he was or was not good? Yet again, I'm trusting our coaching staff more than some armchair from a forum..

According to PFF In 13 games in 2013 Arthur Brown had a special teams rating of a 0 in 4 games in 2014 Zach Orr has a rating of -2.0. It must be rough being a homer

[rmcjacket23]

I guess I'm just in the minority thinking that ILB was still a position of need. It wasn't our biggest need, but there is a difference between having depth, as everyone is putting it, and having solid starters you can count on, not just to be serviceable, but to make a real impact and help to win. We had one of those. Now we have two, which is how many we need in a 3-4. Now it is not a position of need. We can't always have pro bowlers at every single position. Our secondary is thin, but now worse than our front seven might have been if we had gone CB-WR to start the draft and had the injuries we've already had and fought through thanks to our depth there. The front seven is one of the best in the league, and that generally means another part of the team is not as strong. We lead the league in points allowed, fewer total than even all the teams who have already had a bye week, so it isn't like we crippled ourselves. I also disagree that any position on the front seven is less valuable than the secondary. The front seven is counted on to defend all phases of the opposing offense. That's why teams with dominant front sevens (us, Detroit, etc.) are leading the league in defense and find themselves on teams primed to make a playoff run.

From what I recall, Ozzie went out of his way to say that he wanted to upgrade MLB last offseason, and I think he meant that directly through the draft.

 

The fans may have no perceived it as a position of "need", but it appears Ozzie did, and that's really that matters.

[3-4ravdef509]

Well CB is a position where you ideally have 4-5 guys that you trust to play because on any given week you need 3-4 on the field at once. One injury and you are already stretching your depth. 2 injuries and you are playing safeties at CB.

Personally, I had CB right at the top of our offseason needs along with FS, DL, WR, and TE. ILB was pretty far down that list. I'm not taking anything away from Mosley because he has been great, but I think the lack of CB depth has already been a serious issue for the team and the two losses can be largely attributed to poor secondary play.

If we had a Kyle Fuller or Jason Verrett on the team instead of Mosley, would the defense be better or worse right now? Remember we still have Arthur Brown and we could have kept a solid player like Josh Bynes as well. I just think CB is a more important position than ILB for a defense especially when there are serviceable players already at the position.

I wouldn't even listen to any hypothetical theory in which we don't end up with Mosely

[beasy2487]

why do you feel the need to explain everything. He knows how bpa works

 

Becuase when you're a superhero, you go the extra mile to help the phillistines.

[Blackbirds Rule]

I'm still too happy to vent. So I'm giving my opinion on a few members of the team.

 

 I still believe in you Jacoby. I'm always your fan forever. We wouldn't have won that Super Bowl without you. I need you to stop pressing and play like you did that year. It'll start to work in your favor. If not we move on but we'll always have our Super Bowl. Hurst you're playing well for an undrafted rookie FA at LT. You looked better than Matthews who was a #6 pick and second OT taken in the draft. It'll come to you keep working on your technique and if you have to hold to keep Joe from getting hurt I can live with that until Monroe comes back.

 

Pierce I'd like to see better from you with your carries. It's starting to seem that this scheme is not really suited for you. I hope I'm wrong and you start to compliment Forsett or we'll get more of LT.

 

Pees I like how we're starting to see more aggressive calls. I think that's a result of Webb getting back and having Brooks and Hill able to play some FS. Looks like we're starting to phase Elam out or at least putting him in positions to succeed instead of asking him to do to much.

 

Finally as a wish I'd like to find a way to see A. Brown get some playing time. It has to be frustrating to keep practicing and show you're better than last year without be able to actually show it on the field. I just hope he finds a way to get some playing time alongside Mosley before the year is out. Like after we've clinched our division and playoff spot, maybe the last two games to get some reps in.

[3-4ravdef509]

Finally! Coaches film is up.

 

On the second interception, idk what to think of the coverage. From the way Alford spoke about the play, he seemed to imply he was in man coverage. It looks more like an inverted cover 2 with the third safety coming down to cover the middle. The middle safety takes Torrey after Alford gives him up to sniff out the route that Daniels is running (it was Daniels after all) up the middle. Flacco sees the initial coverage as man, and I can see why because it looks an awful lot like it from the get go, but Atlanta did a good job disguising it. That or Alford made a gamble by giving up his man to cover Daniels and was lucky the safety was paying attention. Either way, hard to put this interception of Flacco, except that he could be better about not locking on to receivers with his eyes sometimes, and not tipping his hand to the secondary.

[3-4ravdef509]

On the first interception, while the interception wasn't his fault, both Daniels and Campanaro were open, in fact Campanaro was wide open. Wish Joe would have seen them.

[The Raven]

On the second interception, while the interception wasn't his fault, both Daniels and Campanaro were open, in fact Campanaro was wide open. Wish Joe would have seen them.

 

that is the downside of the west coast offense. So much of it is based on pre-snap reads and timing routes, that you often go to your first or second read before even looking at anyone else. That is especially true on the goalline when space is cramped and separation is difficult.

[arnie_uk]

that is the downside of the west coast offense. So much of it is based on pre-snap reads and timing routes, that you often go to your first or second read before even looking at anyone else. That is especially true on the goalline when space is cramped and separation is difficult.

if you hesitate for a second non your first read the chance at still completing it is slim. You either take the chance and put it in there or just ignore it all together because the timing will be off

[3-4ravdef509]

that is the downside of the west coast offense. So much of it is based on pre-snap reads and timing routes, that you often go to your first or second read before even looking at anyone else. That is especially true on the goalline when space is cramped and separation is difficult.

Meant first interception, but yeah, that's true

[gabefergy]

I wouldn't even listen to any hypothetical theory in which we don't end up with Mosely

The defense would probably be just as good if not better.

[757RavensFan]

The defense would probably be just as good if not better.

 

Are you suggesting that w/out Mosely on the team, the Ravens D would be equal to or better than they are now?

Please tell me you're joking.

[gabefergy]

Are you suggesting that w/out Mosely on the team, the Ravens D would be equal to or better than they are now?

Please tell me you're joking.

Yes, if we had another shutdown corner (Jason Verrett), the Ravens defense would be better right now. Mosley is not the piece that is making the defense go.

[beasy2487]

The problem is we drafted CJ Mosley when the depth at CB was extremely thin. So now we are deep at ILB, a position that doesn't need depth because only 2 ILBs see the field.

 

At CB, where depth is paramount there is none. See the issue? If we take the best CB in the 2014 draft instead of the "BPA", CB depth is no longer an issue and we still have a promising 2nd round pick that the Ravens had rated as a 1st round value playing instead of being on the inactive list.

 

I don't want to vent about the Mosley pick because he's fast overtaking Terrence Brooks as my favourite rookie from this year's class, but our philosophy does have its flaws and those are shown by our current CB and I'd argue WR situation.

 

Like gabe said in the post above this, ILB isn't usually a huge impact spot and it's not difficult to find players who perform at a decent level. We had Jameel McClain and Josh Bynes that year, and it happened to be a deep class for the position. For what it's worth, I don't want to hate on the Brown pick either, because I liked it at the time and I still like him as a player. I'm just using that as an example of how passing on the best player on the board can be better for team balance.

 

You could apply my wanting to momentarily break from the philosophy to almost any draft class as long as the player you'd be picking up is good enough. There were good CBs available in pretty much every round last year, people wanting Alshon Jeffrey over Courtney Upshaw was another one from a couple of years ago and in this year's group I'd have mooted for a WR like Davante Adams or Allen Robinson over Timmy Jernigan (again, not that I think Jernigan's a bad player, but I think we could have been a bit more balanced had we gone for a position of need).

 

As I say, every now and then I'd like to see us grab the fifth player on our board instead of the first if the fifth guy happens to be a major position of need (CB or WR1 for next year's class) and still an excellent player - basically to mitigate that major drawback at least in part.

 

I think we just have a fundamentally different approach to decision making. My opinion is you try to get as close to a sure thing as you can in the draft and you use your coaches and FA to make up for anything you can't address there. Since the draft is not the only option for replenishing your team, but is your only chance to get young studs, my opinion (and apparently our FO's) is that you go for the best possible young talent regardless of position (except in the special case of QBs).

 

Arthur Brown has potential, but as CJ Mosley has proven, if you're the best, you play. By the logic in your posts, you're essentially choosing 2 maybes at positions of need over a near sure thing at a position of "lesser" need.

 

All this huffing and puffing about depth being paramount at CB over other places on the team is overblown in my opinion. We won the Super Bowl with Corey Graham (good not great), the good not-yet great version of Jimmy, and Chykie Brown with 2 less years of experience as our top 3 DBs and we did just fine. We are in an infinitely better situation today than we were then in terms of CB situation...and we won the Super Bowl.

 

Now to the points about the ILB position...Yes there are perhaps more opportunities during a game for a 3rd CB to get on the field than a 3rd LB...but there are plenty of teams (including us) that use safeties in the slot instead of CBs and we have an embarrassment of riches at safety so I don't see how depth there is a problem. And one of my biggest pet peeves is "this position is more of an impact position than that position". The positions that make an impact are the positions that have impact players. When you have elite ILBs, they tend to make a significant impact. The same goes for just about every other position on offense and defense.

 

All that said, I disagree that we need more help at receiver and since our CB depth issue is buttressed by our Safety depth, the only complaint I can see is that we have a second round pick warming the bench because he's not better than the guys ahead of him...which just means we have high quality depth for if-and-when the time comes. As a result, from where I'm sitting BPA is working out very nicely for the Ravens.

 

I think BPA is working out quite nicely for the Ravens.

[757RavensFan]

Yes, if we had another shutdown corner (Jason Verrett), the Ravens defense would be better right now. Mosley is not the piece that is making the defense go.

 

Out of curiousity, who is?

[gabefergy]

I think we just have a fundamentally different approach to decision making. My opinion is you try to get as close to a sure thing as you can in the draft and you use your coaches and FA to make up for anything you can't address there. Since the draft is not the only option for replenishing your team, but is your only chance to get young studs, my opinion (and apparently our FO's) is that you go for the best possible young talent regardless of position (except in the special case of QBs).

 

Arthur Brown has potential, but as CJ Mosley has proven, if you're the best, you play. By the logic in your posts, you're essentially choosing 2 maybes at positions of need over a near sure thing at a position of "lesser" need.

 

All this huffing and puffing about depth being paramount at CB over other places on the team is overblown in my opinion. We won the Super Bowl with Corey Graham (good not great), the good not-yet great version of Jimmy, and Chykie Brown with 2 less years of experience as our top 3 DBs and we did just fine. We are in an infinitely better situation today than we were then in terms of CB situation...and we won the Super Bowl.

 

Now to the points about the ILB position...Yes there are perhaps more opportunities during a game for a 3rd CB to get on the field than a 3rd LB...but there are plenty of teams (including us) that use safeties in the slot instead of CBs and we have an embarrassment of riches at safety so I don't see how depth there is a problem. And one of my biggest pet peeves is "this position is more of an impact position than that position". The positions that make an impact are the positions that have impact players. When you have elite ILBs, they tend to make a significant impact. The same goes for just about every other position on offense and defense.

 

All that said, I disagree that we need more help at receiver and since our CB depth issue is buttressed by our Safety depth, the only complaint I can see is that we have a second round pick warming the bench because he's not better than the guys ahead of him...which just means we have high quality depth for if-and-when the time comes. As a result, from where I'm sitting BPA is working out very nicely for the Ravens.

 

I think BPA is working out quite nicely for the Ravens.

You forgot about Cary Williams, not that he was great at CB, but he was the starter all season for the Ravens in that SB run.

 

Maybe our CB depth is "buttressed" by our safety depth, but our safeties haven't played well either. If I'm looking at the Ravens defense, there has been a glaring weakness in the secondary all season. It has cost us games. With a better secondary the Ravens could easily be 7-0 right now, but they have let up a ton of big plays and long conversions.

 

In a nutshell CB is a more important position than ILB, and the difference between Mosley and Brown is not as big as the difference between a stud rookie like Verrett and the hodgepodge combination of Asa/Chykie/Franks and whatever Safety we have had to play at CB so far this season.

[jazz1988]

Yes, if we had another shutdown corner (Jason Verrett), the Ravens defense would be better right now. Mosley is not the piece that is making the defense go.

 

Is Jason Verrett even a shutdown cornerback right now?

[gabefergy]

Out of curiousity, who is?

Suggs, Dumervil, McPhee, Williams, Jimmy, even Ngata. Those are the players that are making huge differences up front. The DL is dominating which allows Mosley to run around and make plays. The pass-rush has been exceptional up front, and Jimmy is shutting down opposing team's best WRs.

 

Mosley has done a great job of filling the running lanes, but it's the DL that is keeping him clean. How many times do you see OLineman getting to the second level and blcoking the LBs? Not very frequently. Mosley has even been a bit of a liability in coverage. He's made a number of bad reads and has been picked on by opposing QBs.

[beanfigger]

Yes, if we had another shutdown corner (Jason Verrett), the Ravens defense would be better right now. Mosley is not the piece that is making the defense go.

 

I think this is crazy, but since it's hypothetical the argument will just go around in circles forever. Right now we are first in the league in points allowed, so I guess you are suggesting that with Jason Verett we would be firster. Arthur Brown (if he was even the starter in Mosely's place, which he wasn't last year) would not make as big an impact in the run game as Mosely, and I doubt he would even be as successful in blitz packages, where Mosely has done a great job creating pressure and opening up chances for our OLBs to get to the QB. I also don't know if he would have been responsible for the turnovers Mosely has created for us. Anyway, it's just an opinion that can obviously never be proven either way.

[gabefergy]

Is Jason Verrett even a shutdown cornerback right now?

He's definitely in the conversation. He's been targeted 25 times and allowed only 11 receptions for 114 yards. He's let up one TD and has 1 Int. QBs targeting him have a Passer Rating of 54.4

[gabefergy]

I think this is crazy, but since it's hypothetical the argument will just go around in circles forever. Right now we are first in the league in points allowed, so I guess you are suggesting that with Jason Verett we would be firster. Arthur Brown (if he was even the starter in Mosely's place, which he wasn't last year) would not make as big an impact in the run game as Mosely, and I doubt he would even be as successful in blitz packages, where Mosely has done a great job creating pressure and opening up chances for our OLBs to get to the QB. I also don't know if he would have been responsible for the turnovers Mosely has created for us. Anyway, it's just an opinion that can obviously never be proven either way.

Yeah, it's an opinion, but I think it's fairly obvious that the secondary has been a liability this year.

[beanfigger]

Yeah, it's an opinion, but I think it's fairly obvious that the secondary has been a liability this year.

 

Agreed. But front seven has not, and I think they were last year. I give a lot of credit to Williams for that, as well as McPhee, but D. Smith has declined, and Mosely is a huge upgrade over two downs of Bynes and one down of Brown.

[gabefergy]

Agreed. But front seven has not, and I think they were last year. I give a lot of credit to Williams for that, as well as McPhee, but D. Smith has declined, and Mosely is a huge upgrade over two downs of Bynes and one down of Brown.

I think the biggest difference is the DL not the LB. Brandon Williams has played exceptionally well at NT and it lets Ngata play a role better suited for him as well.

[Militant X 1]

Joe's 2 INT's (whether his fault or not)

J. Smith's dropped INT

J Jones bobble drop and turnover

S Smith, Sr. gets caught from behind on that screen. Lol!

 

Other than that...great game!  Let's keep our winning ways going next week on the road in Cinci

 

@Mili

[3-4ravdef509]

The defense would probably be just as good if not better.

 

........................

 

I'm waiting for the punch line

 

................................................................

[3-4ravdef509]

I think the biggest difference is the DL not the LB. Brandon Williams has played exceptionally well at NT and it lets Ngata play a role better suited for him as well.

 

Yes, the d line is a huge part of the equation. But so is a linebacker who sniffs out every play and makes every tackle.