Next UP: Atlanta Falcons

[The Mom Gene]

I'm just glad we have Joe Cool!!! 

[gabefergy]

In most of the games we play, its cold. That's it. We don't play barely any snow or even rain games.

If the dome thing is supposed to matter... why don't they put in asterisk on stats that come from a dome rather than from outside? Am I supposed to statistically adjust Ryan or Flacco's numbers for a hypothetical scenario of when they were or weren't playing in a dome?

Acting like playing in a dome doesn't matter is an assault on my intellect. Of course playing in a dome matters. The AFC North stadiums are cold and windy which affects passing a great deal. Domes are also faster surfaces which generally is going to help out speed players on offense.

[The Mom Gene]

Acting like playing in a dome doesn't matter is an assault on my intellect. Of course playing in a dome matters. The AFC North stadiums are cold and windy which affects passing a great deal. Domes are also faster surfaces which generally is going to help out speed players on offense.

OK Boys.....  no bickering....  all of you!  

[codizzle]

Acting like playing in a dome doesn't matter is an assault on my intellect. Of course playing in a dome matters. The AFC North stadiums are cold and windy which affects passing a great deal. Domes are also faster surfaces which generally is going to help out speed players on offense.

Is this not common knowledge to even kids playing pee wee football?

Those that have simply had a football catch?

Pretty basic thinking there

[BmoreBird22]

Acting like playing in a dome doesn't matter is an assault on my intellect. Of course playing in a dome matters. The AFC North stadiums are cold and windy which affects passing a great deal. Domes are also faster surfaces which generally is going to help out speed players on offense.

I wonder if he's ever tried to throw or catch an NFL sized football in freezing temperatures. Not only is it really difficult to grip, but it also hurts a lot to catch and I know I'm not catching passed that go over 50 mph

[Ravenseconbeast]

Roddy white is gonna "stiff arm" his way to the end zone a few times.....ugh, I'm still mad about that game..

Its okay. Steve Sr will show the amateur how its done

[rmcjacket23]

whys there no point? Because it doesn the lo your argument? Postseason performance should be rated more if anything. Not ignored. If you have the data at hand can you show, reg season vs reg season, post vs post, overall vs overall

Because everybody already knew that the postseason data favored Flacco... I thought we could all figure that out on our own without the data.

 

As it were, here's the combined version...

 

Ryan: 63.8%, 26,562 yards, 174 TDs, 91 INTs in 105 games

Flacco: 60.0%, 25,813 yards, 152 TDs, 89 INTs in 115 games

 

Not sure what part of the conclusion changes by adding in the playoff statistics, as it really doesn't help Flacco's case that much from a statistical aspect...

[ravensdfan]

I'm just glad we have Joe Cool!!! 

 

Me too. All those post season losses we could expect with Ryan would be heartbreaking.

[BmoreBird22]

Question the reason why this thread exists, not me.

 

And again, we actually made at least one draft pick trade offer in order to acquire Matt Ryan. There is no indication we did that for Reggie Bush (nor is there in indication we wanted him at all).

You didn't actually explicitly ask for evidence that the Ravens wanted Bush, but Berad was just showing you the Ravens did in fact want Bush since you seemed to not believe that

[arnie_uk]

Because everybody already knew that the postseason data favored Flacco... I thought we could all figure that out on our own without the data.

 

As it were, here's the combined version...

 

Ryan: 63.8%, 26,562 yards, 174 TDs, 91 INTs in 105 games

Flacco: 60.0%, 25,813 yards, 152 TDs, 89 INTs in 115 games

 

Not sure what part of the conclusion changes by adding in the playoff statistics, as it really doesn't help Flacco's case that much from a statistical aspect...

and every new Ryan's regular season stats are better than joes but you still posted them.

[BmoreBird22]

Honestly, I think Matt Ryan could have done well in Baltimore. Joe fell into a far better situation where he had a complete team around him, for the most part, on both sides. Ryan went to a team that was very willing to build up offensive pass catchers around him, but not build a complete team. If nothing changed between the two teams and you switched Flacco and Ryan, I'm sure Ryan would do well here in the postseason

[rmcjacket23]

Acting like playing in a dome doesn't matter is an assault on my intellect. Of course playing in a dome matters. The AFC North stadiums are cold and windy which affects passing a great deal. Domes are also faster surfaces which generally is going to help out speed players on offense.

So do you get 1.5 times the yardage when you complete a pass outdoors in the wind? A yard is a yard. I'm not in the business of trying to adjust players statistics for weather or lack thereof.

 

If you want to deduct 3,000 yards off Matt Ryan's statistics because he plays in a dome and you think its that much easier to gain yardage, then go for it. Last time I checked, people who are in the business of keeping statistics don't care one bit about the location, weather, etc. of statistics.

 

Why not knock off another 4,000 yards because he's clearly had better receivers to throw to? And why not 2,000 yards because his schedule is weaker?

[arnie_uk]

Honestly, I think Matt Ryan could have done well in Baltimore. Joe fell into a far better situation where he had a complete team around him, for the most part, on both sides. Ryan went to a team that was very willing to build up offensive pass catchers around him, but not build a complete team. If nothing changed between the two teams and you switched Flacco and Ryan, I'm sure Ryan would do well here in the postseason

im not sure he could have handled the weather and defences. Nothing to back that up other than the eye test. Seems to struggle against top defenses that get any sort of pressure

[arnie_uk]

So do you get 1.5 times the yardage when you complete a pass outdoors in the wind? A yard is a yard. I'm not in the business of trying to adjust players statistics for weather or lack thereof.

If you want to deduct 3,000 yards off Matt Ryan's statistics because he plays in a dome and you think its that much easier to gain yardage, then go for it. Last time I checked, people who are in the business of keeping statistics don't care one bit about the location, weather, etc. of statistics.

Why not knock off another 4,000 yards because he's clearly had better receivers to throw to? And why not 2,000 yards because his schedule is weaker?

when discussing whos better its not black and white as stats are. There's a lot of grey. Dome is one, so is the weweapons, so is the differences in defences face.

[rmcjacket23]

and every new Ryan's regular season stats are better than joes but you still posted them.

Just like people KNEW that we preferred Joe over Ryan in that draft right?

 

People wanted me to provide the postseason statistics because they thought that Joe's were significantly better. As it were, they really weren't by that much. They thought they were, because the Ravens win playoff games and the Falcons lose playoff games, which would make people think that Ryan isn't very good in the postseason.

[arnie_uk]

Just like people KNEW that we preferred Joe over Ryan in that draft right?

People wanted me to provide the postseason statistics because they thought that Joe's were significantly better. As it were, they really weren't by that much. They thought they were, because the Ravens win playoff games and the Falcons lose playoff games, which would make people think that Ryan isn't very good in the postseason.

did anyone actually say we preferred joe what 7 years ago. I thought you brought that into this equation which in no way relates to who fans would rather have 7 years later.

[rmcjacket23]

when discussing whos better its not black and white as stats are. There's a lot of grey. Dome is one, so is the weweapons, so is the differences in defences face.

Correct, thus reverting me back to my original statement... if you're a Falcons fan, why would you prefer Flacco over Ryan? Statistically you wouldn't, and knowing that you're playing a dome, and Ryan is clearly better in a dome, why would you prefer Flacco?

 

If you're an Atlanta Falcons fan, and you have all the information available right now... would you trade Matt Ryan for Joe Flacco straight up right now? Age is basically the same, contracts are basically the same. If you're a Ravens fan (me included), you don't make that deal.

 

But for some reason... I think a lot of Ravens fans on here think that the Falcons would actually want to do that deal, and I don't really see any reason to think that.

[arnie_uk]

Correct, thus reverting me back to my original statement... if you're a Falcons fan, why would you prefer Flacco over Ryan? Statistically you wouldn't, and knowing that you're playing a dome, and Ryan is clearly better in a dome, why would you prefer Flacco?

 

If you're an Atlanta Falcons fan, and you have all the information available right now... would you trade Matt Ryan for Joe Flacco straight up right now? Age is basically the same, contracts are basically the same. If you're a Ravens fan (me included), you don't make that deal.

 

But for some reason... I think a lot of Ravens fans on here think that the Falcons would actually want to do that deal, and I don't really see any reason to think that.

if you listened to what other people actually thought instead of trying to put words into their mouths, you would know that 90 percent of people here prefer Joe, but they also know Falcons fans prefer Ryan. This is the 7th year of the arguement, it's not a new one. People aren't as dumb as you make them out to be

[berad]

I didn't ask for evidence that we wanted Bush... you assumed that we did. I never said we didn't... I said he wasn't nearly as coveted as Ryan was, as referenced by our attempt to move up so high and pay such a high price to get him.

Bolded below:

Question the reason why this thread exists, not me.

And again, we actually made at least one draft pick trade offer in order to acquire Matt Ryan. There is no indication we did that for Reggie Bush (nor is there in indication we wanted him at all).

Not arguing that we tried to move up.

My point was simple... contrary to what some people seemed to think, at the time we had the ability to make the decision, Matt Ryan was priority 1 and Joe Flacco was priority 2. That doesn't mean we made the wrong decision by any stretch... its just amusing to me that people think our FO was smart enough to figure out that Joe would be better than Ryan. If they really thought that, then I doubt they go in offering four draft picks to get him, when they know they can get Joe for the pick they already had.

 

It doesn't need to be said that the draft isn't a crystal ball, because everybody knows that already. That's not the point at all.

No, not 'better' necesarrily but the Ravens are all about value, Flacco was a better value pick - felt they weren't giving up too much in terms of talent

[rmcjacket23]

Honestly, I think Matt Ryan could have done well in Baltimore. Joe fell into a far better situation where he had a complete team around him, for the most part, on both sides. Ryan went to a team that was very willing to build up offensive pass catchers around him, but not build a complete team. If nothing changed between the two teams and you switched Flacco and Ryan, I'm sure Ryan would do well here in the postseason

I have no doubt Ryan would have performed just fine in Baltimore. People think Joe plays well in the cold because he grew up doing so, yet Ryan played high school ball in Philadelphia and played college in Boston... not exactly warm weather cities.

 

If Joe were playing in a dome, he would adapt, just like Matt did, and vice versa. Its not like a team drafted Matt Ryan specifically because they thought he'd be a great dome QB. He was drafted by the Falcons because they thought he was the best QB in the draft.

[rmcjacket23]

Bolded below:

Not arguing that we tried to move up.

No, not 'better' necesarrily but the Ravens are all about value, Flacco was a better value pick - felt they weren't giving up too much in terms of talent

Absolutely, its precisely what Ozzie told Bischotti so that they didn't trade too many picks for one guy. He specifically said that the gap in talent between Ryan and Joe wasn't worth the cost it would take to get Ryan.

 

That decision appears to be an obvious one at this point, knowing what we know now.

[The Mom Gene]

Because everybody already knew that the postseason data favored Flacco... I thought we could all figure that out on our own without the data.

 

As it were, here's the combined version...

 

Ryan: 63.8%, 26,562 yards, 174 TDs, 91 INTs in 105 games

Flacco: 60.0%, 25,813 yards, 152 TDs, 89 INTs in 115 games

 

Not sure what part of the conclusion changes by adding in the playoff statistics, as it really doesn't help Flacco's case that much from a statistical aspect...

Let's see...  Just as Joe says....  He plays the game to win...  Wins/Losses are what count, the rest are just stats and numbers.....

And I gotta tell ya.....  I'll take those wins over the QBR's and Stats anyday...........  You can put up all the numbers you want, but if you don't have the rest of the team to help you out, then  that's exactly what they are....  JUST NUMBERS.

[gabefergy]

So do you get 1.5 times the yardage when you complete a pass outdoors in the wind? A yard is a yard. I'm not in the business of trying to adjust players statistics for weather or lack thereof.

If you want to deduct 3,000 yards off Matt Ryan's statistics because he plays in a dome and you think its that much easier to gain yardage, then go for it. Last time I checked, people who are in the business of keeping statistics don't care one bit about the location, weather, etc. of statistics.

Why not knock off another 4,000 yards because he's clearly had better receivers to throw to? And why not 2,000 yards because his schedule is weaker?

Ok, let's do that. It's abundantly clear who is better then.

Or you can just acknowledge what is obvious to everyone not speaking from a biased perspective that playing in a dome is beneficial.

[The Mom Gene]

If we're gonna compare numbers... and you guys are talking regular season wins...  then fine...

 

but how many playoff wins does Joe have???

how many playoff wins does Ryan have??? 

how many SuperBowls do each of them have????  Oh, yeah, Joe has one.....  Ryan, None.

[rmcjacket23]

Let's see...  Just as Joe says....  He plays the game to win...  Wins/Losses are what count, the rest are just stats and numbers.....

And I gotta tell ya.....  I'll take those wins over the QBR's and Stats anyday...........  You can put up all the numbers you want, but if you don't have the rest of the team to help you out, then  that's exactly what they are....  JUST NUMBERS.

And that's perfectly fine... as long as we don't start going down the ridiculous path of ONLY caring about whether a QB wins or loses the game though, because its NOT the only measurement of the effectiveness of a QB, nor do I even think its the most important one.

 

Like it or not, statistics have been and will continue to be a MAJOR factor in determining the effectiveness of any player in any sport.

[The Mom Gene]

There are a number of teams that would take either of these guys....  We just need to accept that we think differently about each of them......  It is what it is..... 

[The Mom Gene]

And that's perfectly fine... as long as we don't start going down the ridiculous path of ONLY caring about whether a QB wins or loses the game though, because its NOT the only measurement of the effectiveness of a QB, nor do I even think its the most important one.

 

Like it or not, statistics have been and will continue to be a MAJOR factor in determining the effectiveness of any player in any sport.

I'm just sayin Jacket......  You can have a QBR of 125 and still lose a game if your defense can't keep the other team from scoring....

[The Mom Gene]

It's the NFL.....  Any Given Sunday Folks......  It's a game of inches...

[rmcjacket23]

If we're gonna compare numbers... and you guys are talking regular season wins...  then fine...

 

but how many playoff wins does Joe have???

how many playoff wins does Ryan have??? 

how many SuperBowls do each of them have????  Oh, yeah, Joe has one.....  Ryan, None.

Tony Gonzalez had one playoff win in his entire career and never won or even appeared in a SB. He's also universally considered one of if not the best TE in the history of the NFL.

 

Explain to me why he is considered that, but explain it without using statistics? You can only use the playoff win/loss argument.

 

Don't you see why that might be a problem?

[rmcjacket23]

I'm just sayin Jacket......  You can have a QBR of 125 and still lose a game if your defense can't keep the other team from scoring....

You can also go 4 for 10 for 34 yards and one INT and win a postseason game... because your defense CAN keep the other team from scoring.

 

It goes both ways... which is why the win/loss record is A factor in the perception of a player, not THE factor in the perception of a player.