Next UP: Atlanta Falcons

[berad]

Is it true Suggs & Ngata went on the radio and mocked the Falcons?

Can't find anything on that other than the Falcons forum link which is vague and poorly written

[ravensdfan]

Stats this! Flacco has more home wins than any other QB since he entered the league in 2008. This game is at home. Shut the stat up!

 

LMBO!

 

I'm saying from a statistical/quantitative standpoint, it doesn't matter. Because if you can't quantify the difference, then it is, by definition, a qualitative comparison.

 

As I asked earlier... when they vote for MVP awards... do they downward adjust statistical performances from guys like Drew Brees because he plays in a dome, doesn't face adverse weather often, and plays in a perceived "weaker" division?

 

If that was the case, how can he realistically be considered a Pro Bowl candidate? Or an MVP candidate? Or a potential HOF candidate?

 

Why are you now bringing up Pro Bowls? Everyone knows those are basically a popularity contest for one thing and media driven for another. 

 

The discussion was strictly a Flacco/Ryan one and you talked about Ryan and statistics. As far as being able to quantify it - you've been given those qualifiers. The distinct difference between rating & completion percentages inside and outside a dome. No one is saying you have to sit down and break down each game - stop changing the argument because you are losing.

 

The argument was that Ryan has an advantage because of weapons, defenses faced and playing most games inside a dome. You claimed those did not matter. You were proven incorrect.

[Inqui]

LMBO!

 

 

Why are you now bringing up Pro Bowls? Everyone knows those are basically a popularity contest for one thing and media driven for another. 

 

The discussion was strictly a Flacco/Ryan one and you talked about Ryan and statistics. As far as being able to quantify it - you've been given those qualifiers. The distinct difference between rating & completion percentages inside and outside a dome. No one is saying you have to sit down and break down each game - stop changing the argument because you are losing.

 

The argument was that Ryan has an advantage because of weapons, defenses faced and playing most games inside a dome. You claimed those did not matter. You were proven incorrect.

You mean an all-star game that saw Andy Dalton and Matt Schaub selected isn't necessarily an indicator of talent?

[gabefergy]

You mean an all-star game that saw Andy Dalton and Matt Schaub selected isn't necessarily an indicator of talent?

Dont forget Matt Cassell!

[Inqui]

Dont forget Matt Cassell!

In my defence, Matt Cassel's pretty easy to forget.

[Ravenslifer]

Dont forget Matt Cassell!

 

He had a decent year that season - much better than the travesty that was Andy Dalton's selection.

[gabefergy]

He had a decent year that season - much better than the travesty that was Andy Dalton's selection.

Sure, but he's an awful QB. Just goes to the point that the Pro Bowl is joke and not a way to rate who is better at the position.

[Inqui]

Sure, but he's an awful QB. Just goes to the point that the Pro Bowl is joke and not a way to rate who is better at the position.

Even the commentators of a Pro Bowl game called the Pro Bowl a joke. That's a sad state of affairs.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Took a look at the Falcons forums, so depressing over there

Haha..try listening to their fans at the radio. They hate their baseball team, their basketball team and their football..lol..

[52520Andrew]

You mean an all-star game that saw Andy Dalton and Matt Schaub selected isn't necessarily an indicator of talent?

 

Can't believe Jeff Saturday hasn't been mentioned while we are on this subject

 

Is it true Suggs & Ngata went on the radio and mocked the Falcons?

 

Only place I have seen it is on their forum so I don't know

[52520Andrew]

Haha..try listening to their fans at the radio. They hate their baseball team, their basketball team and their football..lol..

 

Yeah that has to be a tough place right now

[omar586]

as long as we dont have break downs and mis-communication  in the secondary we'll do fine vs falcons.

[ellicottraven]

I was on their board right now and man - those fans have turned on the Falcons! They expect the Falcons to be bulldozed by the Ravens. In fact one fan predicted a Ravens blow out 40-17... lol! 

 

At least we love our Ravens through thick and thin.

[rmcjacket23]

I was on their board right now and man - those fans have turned on the Falcons! They expect the Falcons to be bulldozed by the Ravens. In fact one fan predicted a Ravens blow out 40-17... lol! 

 

At least we love our Ravens through thick and thin.

Do we?

 

Check out these boards after ANY loss, let alone a blowout loss. You'll see the exact same types of statements.

 

Seriously, go back and read some of the posts in the vent thread after the Bengals loss.

[callahan09]

Based on your statistics, the only conclusion I would draw is that Ryan is better than Flacco outdoors and Flacco is better than Ryan indoors. So where does that get us?

 

And while there is a difference, not that between 2008 and 2013, the average AFC North team allowed 209 passing YPG, and the average NFC South team allowed 228 passing YPG. Its 20 yards per game difference. That means that, on average, Ryan would still have more passing yards than Flacco even if he played in the AFC North. And given that, as you pointed out above, Ryan is better outdoors than Flacco...

 

So you're basically just going to go with "yards per game" as your entire argument?  First of all, 20 yards per game is not nothing, 20 ypg was close to the difference between #6 Carolina Panthers and league average last season... 26 yards per game was the difference between league average and top 5.  In 2008, 23 ypg was the difference between league average and top 5.  In 2009 it was only 17 yards per game separating league average from top 5.

 

Using cumulative yardage allowed by each team since 2008, Baltimore's divisional opponents rank #1, #4 and #8 in passing defense.  Atlanta's rank #6, #23, and #24.  That's a pretty big difference.

 

Baltimore's also rank #1, #4, and #15 in touchdowns allowed, while the Atlanta opponents rank #7, #10, and #32.

 

Since 2008, the defenses of Atlanta's division opponents have allowed a 62.1% completion percentage, vs 59.6% from Baltimore's division opponents; 6.79 yards per attempt vs 6.18; and a passer rating of 84.0 vs 78.7.

 

These are all significant differences.

 

Tougher defenses, tougher conditions, and of course, Joe Flacco's number 1 receiver has been over 30 years old every year of his career except last year, when Torrey Smith was his number 1, and you're kidding yourself if you think Torrey Smith is actually a legit #1 receiver in the NFL (a significant reason why Flacco's numbers were so far down last year... the weapons were by far the most lacking of his career with no #1 replacing Boldin and our #1 tight end out for the majority of the season, and the offensive line was by far the worst in the NFL, producing historically bad running game and pass protection).

 

Matt Ryan has had Tony Gonzalez, Roddy White, Julio Jones all playing at a higher level than anyone on the Ravens squad.  Tony Gonzalez alone was a ridiculous safety blanket to have, the best to ever play the game at what he does, and still doing it during his entire tenure with Matt Ryan.  His worst season with Matt Ryan was better than Pitta or Heap's best season.

 

Trying to argue that Matt Ryan's superior weapons, playing conditions, and division opponent defenses played against don't matter in terms of the relatively small difference in their career stats is kind of absurd.

[1/28/01]

I back callahan 100%. And this is even if he and rmcjacket are discussing the intricate details or properly crocheting a doily.

[callahan09]

In Ryan's last 5 road games, he has a 78.7 QB Rating.

 

In Flacco's last 5 home games, he has an 81.9 QB Rating.  But important to recall is that 1 of those games was game 1 this season where his receivers dropped literally 8 passes for over 120 yards (according to PFF, and that's just yards in the air, not even considering potential yards after the catch, and likely a touchdown or two).  It also included the New England game last year, which was right after Flacco injured his knee and almost certainly shouldn't even have been playing.  And finally, it included a game played during a blizzard against Minnesota.  3 games where circumstances that aren't his fault made it severely more difficult to put up pretty stats.  For the record, if just the 8 passes against Cincinnati were caught, but not even for any yards after the catch or any touchdowns, that alone would have bumped him up to an 87.6.

 

Also consider that both QB's have faced approximately the same quality of defenses this season (Ryan has faced defenses allowing an 88.9 rating, Flacco has faced defenses allowing an 89.1), but Flacco has the better QB Rating (97.8 vs 92.7), and Flacco will be going up against the a weaker defense in Atlanta's (98.2 rating allowed) than Ryan will be going up against in Baltimore's (86.9 rating allowed).

 

All of this to me points to Flacco having a better game than Ryan here.  Ryan is doing worse against similar quality defenses, worse on the road than Flacco does at home, and is going up against a tougher defense in this matchup.  So let's hope that holds up.  Will be disappointing if it doesn't.

[rmcjacket23]

So you're basically just going to go with "yards per game" as your entire argument?  First of all, 20 yards per game is not nothing, 20 ypg was close to the difference between #6 Carolina Panthers and league average last season... 26 yards per game was the difference between league average and top 5.  In 2008, 23 ypg was the difference between league average and top 5.  In 2009 it was only 17 yards per game separating league average from top 5.

 

Using cumulative yardage allowed by each team since 2008, Baltimore's divisional opponents rank #1, #4 and #8 in passing defense.  Atlanta's rank #6, #23, and #24.  That's a pretty big difference.

 

Baltimore's also rank #1, #4, and #15 in touchdowns allowed, while the Atlanta opponents rank #7, #10, and #32.

 

Since 2008, the defenses of Atlanta's division opponents have allowed a 62.1% completion percentage, vs 59.6% from Baltimore's division opponents; 6.79 yards per attempt vs 6.18; and a passer rating of 84.0 vs 78.7.

 

These are all significant differences.

 

Tougher defenses, tougher conditions, and of course, Joe Flacco's number 1 receiver has been over 30 years old every year of his career except last year, when Torrey Smith was his number 1, and you're kidding yourself if you think Torrey Smith is actually a legit #1 receiver in the NFL (a significant reason why Flacco's numbers were so far down last year... the weapons were by far the most lacking of his career with no #1 replacing Boldin and our #1 tight end out for the majority of the season, and the offensive line was by far the worst in the NFL, producing historically bad running game and pass protection).

 

Matt Ryan has had Tony Gonzalez, Roddy White, Julio Jones all playing at a higher level than anyone on the Ravens squad.  Tony Gonzalez alone was a ridiculous safety blanket to have, the best to ever play the game at what he does, and still doing it during his entire tenure with Matt Ryan.  His worst season with Matt Ryan was better than Pitta or Heap's best season.

 

Trying to argue that Matt Ryan's superior weapons, playing conditions, and division opponent defenses played against don't matter in terms of the relatively small difference in their career stats is kind of absurd.

But at this point, all you're really trying to do is to take factual statistics, and explain to somebody why they aren't accurate, yet they already happened and existed. Games of professional football aren't played under the exact same conditions for everybody... thats unreasonable. I'm not interested in trying to project what Joe Flacco would do for an entire career when throwing to Julio Jones or Roddy White in a dome against the NFC South, because he didn't, and hes not going to. I'm not interested in trying to project what Matt Ryan would do for an entire career when throwing to Torrey Smith and Anquan Boldin outside in the AFC North, because he didn't, and he's not going to.

 

If that's what you want to do, go for it. If you want to compile a 120 point bullet list of all of the possible variable factors that distinguish Flacco and Ryan and put it all together and try to quantify what that means, by all means go ahead. It will of course be wrong, because there's no way to quantify some of the differences you are describing.

 

Does it matter that Ryan plays in a dome? I guess for this comparison it does, though I'm not sure what other comparisons it would matter even a little bit for. As far as I can tell, it doesn't matter when people compare QBs for All-Pro status, or MVP status, or HOF status, which is basically the ultimate comparisons you can make in this sport. If people actually discounted QBs for playing in domes, having a lot of weapons to throw to, and playing in a "soft" division, then I don't see how its even possible that ANYBODY could vote for Brees or Manning to win MVP awards, because they had essentially the exact same conditions.

 

I mean if the Ryan argument works... why wouldn't the exact same argument be used to support Joe Flacco being a better QB than Peyton Manning (which literally nobody thinks)? Did Manning not spend the majority of his career playing in a dome? Did he not have some high-quality receivers and offensive lineman around him? Did he not play in a division that was always perceived as weaker, especially defensively? Do we not knock Peyton Manning for being "non-clutch" in the postseason and for being a vastly weaker QB outside in cold weather?

 

If all of those factors can be said for Peyton Manning, shouldn't we monumentally discount Manning's accomplishments and consider Flacco to be better than him also?

[jaege]

Do we?

 

Check out these boards after ANY loss, let alone a blowout loss. You'll see the exact same types of statements.

 

Seriously, go back and read some of the posts in the vent thread after the Bengals loss.

 

 

Its never that bad. There are a lot of "fire" this guy or "replace" that guy, but I have never seen the board turn on the entire team.

[rmcjacket23]

Its never that bad. There are a lot of "fire" this guy or "replace" that guy, but I have never seen the board turn on the entire team.

Last season, it certainly was. When the list of people being demanded to be fired or replaced is longer than the number of people even capable of being on the field, then by default, you've essentially turned on the team.

 

In this very season alone, on these very boards, the following players who have started at some point have been asked to be benched and/or possibly even cut by multiple posters on these boards:

 

Torrey Smith, Daryl Smith, Terrell Suggs, Elvis Dumervil, and the entire secondary less Jimmy Smith (probably at least 4 guys).

 

And that's excluding some role players who have played significant snaps and/or started a game or two, like Bernard Pierce. And that's for a 4-2 football team with a lot of potential to be very good.

 

Sampling a fanbase and their perception of the team based on their message boards is a HORRIBLE idea.

[gabefergy]

But at this point, all you're really trying to do is to take factual statistics, and explain to somebody why they aren't accurate, yet they already happened and existed. Games of professional football aren't played under the exact same conditions for everybody... thats unreasonable. I'm not interested in trying to project what Joe Flacco would do for an entire career when throwing to Julio Jones or Roddy White in a dome against the NFC South, because he didn't, and hes not going to. I'm not interested in trying to project what Matt Ryan would do for an entire career when throwing to Torrey Smith and Anquan Boldin outside in the AFC North, because he didn't, and he's not going to.

 

If that's what you want to do, go for it. If you want to compile a 120 point bullet list of all of the possible variable factors that distinguish Flacco and Ryan and put it all together and try to quantify what that means, by all means go ahead. It will of course be wrong, because there's no way to quantify some of the differences you are describing.

 

Does it matter that Ryan plays in a dome? I guess for this comparison it does, though I'm not sure what other comparisons it would matter even a little bit for. As far as I can tell, it doesn't matter when people compare QBs for All-Pro status, or MVP status, or HOF status, which is basically the ultimate comparisons you can make in this sport. If people actually discounted QBs for playing in domes, having a lot of weapons to throw to, and playing in a "soft" division, then I don't see how its even possible that ANYBODY could vote for Brees or Manning to win MVP awards, because they had essentially the exact same conditions.

 

I mean if the Ryan argument works... why wouldn't the exact same argument be used to support Joe Flacco being a better QB than Peyton Manning (which literally nobody thinks)? Did Manning not spend the majority of his career playing in a dome? Did he not have some high-quality receivers and offensive lineman around him? Did he not play in a division that was always perceived as weaker, especially defensively? Do we not knock Peyton Manning for being "non-clutch" in the postseason and for being a vastly weaker QB outside in cold weather?

 

If all of those factors can be said for Peyton Manning, shouldn't we monumentally discount Manning's accomplishments and consider Flacco to be better than him also?

What it really boils down to is this upcoming week. Where Flacco is at home and Ryan is on the road in an outdoor stadium. Looking at how these QBs perform in these circumstances, it's simple to ascertain that Flacco has the advantage.

 

The career stuff can be argued forwards and backwards, but in the end how Ryan plays in his dome is not relevant. He isn't playing in Atlanta this week.

[omar586]

i hope the ravens will come out firing, and not sleeping on a desperate team like the falcons,

[ravensfan160]

It seemed like the Colt game was going to be a shootout for sure and instead it was a defensive battle all game. I have no idea what to expect. We should win decisively but you never know.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Please..some form of consistency. Let's win this game and keep the momentum going. Next week is the Bengals then few weeks after the chargers. We could use few cushions before the hvy games.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Yeah that has to be a tough place right now

Minor injury or not...their prized lineman has been downright awful on LT. Add Gabe Carimi(yea..that guy) to RT and you got some easy sacks comming @M&T!

[redrum52]

From what I've heard, the Falcons are like turnstiles in the trenches. We should go with a heavy dose of running the ball and then occasionally take shots downfield. Hopefully our pass rush will suppress their passing game.

Might be the softest team in the trenches or softest team in general in the league.

[ravensdfan]

What it really boils down to is this upcoming week. Where Flacco is at home and Ryan is on the road in an outdoor stadium. Looking at how these QBs perform in these circumstances, it's simple to ascertain that Flacco has the advantage.

 

The career stuff can be argued forwards and backwards, but in the end how Ryan plays in his dome is not relevant. He isn't playing in Atlanta this week.

 

Which was the intial comparison anyway and someone mentioned Ryan was not as good outside a dome. Then he said the dome was not a factor. He's just switching the argument to ProBowls & HoF and such because he was proven wrong on his intitial assessment.

[ravensfan160]

This article made me chuckle. It's some guy from Bleacher Report explaining why the Falcons should trade for Arthur Brown. That's not the funny part. Its what we would get in return...a mid to late round pick and [drum roll]...Josh Wilson. Yes its the same Josh Wilson you're thinking. A veteran corner who can't even get on the field for the Falcons terrible defense.

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2213474-arthur-brown-is-being-misused-in-baltimore-atlanta-should-trade-for-him

[rmcjacket23]

Which was the intial comparison anyway and someone mentioned Ryan was not as good outside a dome. Then he said the dome was not a factor. He's just switching the argument to ProBowls & HoF and such because he was proven wrong on his intitial assessment.

So, to summarize, when fanboards make comparisons between QBs, domes matter.

 

When people who make comparisons that actually effect things, like MVP awards and HOF awards, domes don't matter.

 

Therefore, we must as a society 100% discount any QB who plays in a dome, has good weapons to throw to, and plays against worse defenses than somebody else as having an unfair competitive advantage, and thus automatically make them inferior.

 

SMH...spin, spin, spin.

[Static]

Here in Atlanta they are scared of us. An actual complete team.

Even if their offense is better than ours , and statistically it isn't , our defense is so much stouter that I'm more confident about this game than the Bucs game.