Lardarius Webb (merged)

[rmcjacket23]

Of course it doesn't disappear. I never suggested it does, but when you are up against the cap creating $4M in cap space can be critical while spreading it out over 3 or 4 years has a lot less impact on the cap each year.

And that's true. But there is a caveat...

 

As an example again, the Webb contract...

 

2014 salary cap implications before the restructure: $11.5M cap hit, $10M in dead money if released

2014 salary cap implications after the restructure: $7.5M cap hit, $14M in dead money if released

 

2015 salary cap implications before the restructure: $11M cap hit, $7M in dead money if released = $4M in cap savings to release

2015 salary cap implications after the restructure: $12M cap hit, $10M in dead money if released = $2M in cap savings to release

 

So hypothetically, what if you wanted Webb to play here in 2014, but you wanted to release him (pre-June 1 cut) in 2015?

 

Well, now that you've restructured his contract, you've actually cut his cap savings from a release in half in 2015 (from 4M to 2M), which in my opinion, means its more likely that he stays. Since he probably stays in 2015, you now have to pay him an $8M base salary in 2015, which you might not have paid had you not restructured and cut him in 2015.

 

Hence, that's why restructurings are typically only beneficial if paycuts are taken or extra years are tacked onto the deal. You don't gain anything in the long-term from a salary cap perspective, and you are taking a portion of non-guaranteed salary and guaranteeing it, which increases your cap space in future years and at least somewhat reduces the likelihood of releasing them in the future.

[gabefergy]

And that's true. But there is a caveat...

 

As an example again, the Webb contract...

 

2014 salary cap implications before the restructure: $11.5M cap hit, $10M in dead money if released

2014 salary cap implications after the restructure: $7.5M cap hit, $14M in dead money if released

 

2015 salary cap implications before the restructure: $11M cap hit, $7M in dead money if released = $4M in cap savings to release

2015 salary cap implications after the restructure: $12M cap hit, $10M in dead money if released = $2M in cap savings to release

 

So hypothetically, what if you wanted Webb to play here in 2014, but you wanted to release him (pre-June 1 cut) in 2015?

 

Well, now that you've restructured his contract, you've actually cut his cap savings from a release in half in 2015 (from 4M to 2M), which in my opinion, means its more likely that he stays. Since he probably stays in 2015, you now have to pay him an $8M base salary in 2015, which you might not have paid had you not restructured and cut him in 2015.

 

Hence, that's why restructurings are typically only beneficial if paycuts are taken or extra years are tacked onto the deal. You don't gain anything in the long-term from a salary cap perspective, and you are taking a portion of non-guaranteed salary and guaranteeing it, which increases your cap space in future years and at least somewhat reduces the likelihood of releasing them in the future.

That's why I said that restructures can have implications, and pointed to Webb's contract specifically.

[rmcjacket23]

That's why I said that restructures can have implications, and pointed to Webb's contract specifically.

Right, and my point is, without an extension or a paycut, restructures generally have NEGATIVE implications, not positive one's.

[TuckerTime9]

I don't follow other teams often but I thought for sure Chris Harris Jr excels as  a nickel cornerback. I think The Ravens just need a solid outside cornerback that's taller than 5'10" whom they can trust in man coverage on occasion just like with Corey Graham.

I'm not too fond of the Broncos but as far as I know Harris Jr. has played on the outside and played well this season. This article stats he's excelled on the outside this season with a good slot corner helping him inside (something Lardarius Webb could do!)

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/10/15/analysis-notebook-week-6-3/

[Dewy101]

But there enlies the problem... Webb sort of has pretty strong leverage in 2015. The cap savings from cutting him is only $2M next season. Even as a 3rd or 4th corner, he's probably worth $2M in cap space, particularly when you literally have nobody to replace him on the roster currently.

Typically, when a team asks a player to take a paycut or negotiate a lower contract, the team has some leverage in the matter, meaning that the player knows that the team might cut him if he doesn't take a lower deal, and that player wouldn't be able to find nearly as much money on the open market.

I'm not sure the Ravens are really in that position in 2015. They only end up in that position if they literally add a bunch of corners they think can play in the offseason, in which case he would likely be a post-June 1 cut.

According to his PFF stats he's not worth keeping. I expect him to be cut post June If he doesn't restructure. Hes not even worth the extra 2 million with the way he's been playing. Unless he drastically improved his play I expect him gone or forced to restructure. Do you think he's playing hurt (back injury in the offseason) because I've never seen him play this bad even after he came back from both his ACL injuries?

[gabefergy]

Right, and my point is, without an extension or a paycut, restructures generally have NEGATIVE implications, not positive one's.

I think you are over-generalizing here. It's really just a case by case basis and depends on how the player in question plays out their contract. 

 

Yanda restructure = success. 

 

Webb restructure = failure.

 

You can find the same thing in other teams that have done similar things.

 

Roethlisberger restructure = success.

 

Woodley restructure = failure.

[rmcjacket23]

I think you are over-generalizing here. It's really just a case by case basis and depends on how the player in question plays out their contract. 

 

Yanda restructure = success. 

 

Webb restructure = failure.

 

You can find the same thing in other teams that have done similar things.

 

Roethlisberger restructure = success.

 

Woodley restructure = failure.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

 

I'm saying you can't really gain anything over the life of the contract by restructuring somebody, but it can hurt you in the long run.

 

Thus why smart teams tend to not restructure barely anyone unless they absolutely have to, because its a long-term risk for zero possible long-term gain.

[gabefergy]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

 

I'm saying you can't really gain anything over the life of the contract by restructuring somebody, but it can hurt you in the long run.

 

Thus why smart teams tend to not restructure barely anyone unless they absolutely have to, because its a long-term risk for zero possible long-term gain.

Yeah, but you are ignoring the potentially large short term gain. I just named two restructures that have worked out extremely well for the teams that have done them. Creating cap space can be the difference between signing an impact player or not, between making the playoffs or not. It clearly can be a very useful way to manage the cap if used properly and with restraint.

[rmcjacket23]

Yeah, but you are ignoring the potentially large short term gain. I just named two restructures that have worked out extremely well for the teams that have done them. Creating cap space can be the difference between signing an impact player or not, between making the playoffs or not. It clearly can be a very useful way to manage the cap if used properly and with restraint.

Yes, but you are also ignoring the possibility that future players are released or not re-signed because of previous restructured cap numbers that are now higher.

 

In fact, did you ever consider that one of the biggest reasons why the Woodley restructure didn't work (and thus they subsequently cut him) is because of the Roethlisberger restructures that they did for three consecutive seasons between 2011 and 2013? They cut Woodley (though partially because he wasn't as good of a player) because they needed to cut cap space just to get under the cap. And why did that happen? Because you've got a QB who you've restructured three times in three seasons who's salary cap number just went up $5M from 2013 to 2014, even though his salary didn't change at all.

[gabefergy]

Yes, but you are also ignoring the possibility that future players are released or not re-signed because of previous restructured cap numbers that are now higher.

 

In fact, did you ever consider that one of the biggest reasons why the Woodley restructure didn't work (and thus they subsequently cut him) is because of the Roethlisberger restructures that they did for three consecutive seasons between 2011 and 2013? They cut Woodley (though partially because he wasn't as good of a player) because they needed to cut cap space just to get under the cap. And why did that happen? Because you've got a QB who you've restructured three times in three seasons who's salary cap number just went up $5M from 2013 to 2014, even though his salary didn't change at all.

I'm not ignoring anything. I've said multiple times that restructuring is risky business, but it can still be useful. Ozzie calls it a charge card and that's exactly what it is. At some point you have to pay up, but it can be very effective as well.

[orangle123]

Would like to quickly chime in. I'm sick of everyou pass thrown Webbs way,he is 5 yards away. Seriously frustrating, he's either not healthy, or needs better man skills...

[jrledee]

Webb has been the secondary biggest disaster this year. He has given up most of the yard this season and is not playing like he used to. We should try and cut our losses after this season or ne needs to take a huge pay cut

[orangle123]

I'm not looking to just rage over Webb, because I think he's a great guy and he definitely puts the work in.  But he just does not have the body/mind/whatever to play at a high level right now.  I'm am beyond frustrated, that every single game QB's pick on him bc he's 5+ yards from the receiver every play.  I don't see him playing here for much longer unfortunately...

[Ravenatic20]

Is this a statement or a question?

[GrimCoconut]

Webb has been the secondary biggest disaster this year. He has given up most of the yard this season and is not playing like he used to. We should try and cut our losses after this season or ne needs to take a huge pay cut

Biggest disaster? I'm not sure that makes sense. I mean, he's probably the only CB who's played the most games with us considering we cut Brown and Franks and Gorrer and Levine are both new and recent additions to the CB corps.

[redrum52]

According to overthecap.com,we'll only save $2 million if we cut him before June 1st and we'll save $8 million if cut him after that.

What about the dead money after though? It makes more sense to keep Webb at that point.

[Ravenseconbeast]

Biggest disaster? I'm not sure that makes sense. I mean, he's probably the only CB who's played the most games with us considering we cut Brown and Franks and Gorrer and Levine are both new and recent additions to the CB corps.

 

Bigger concern was putting faith in Chykie to be that 3rd guy.   We had the fortune to have Cary Williams, Josh Wilson, Corey Graham for past 5 years who were worth well above the #3.   We were also incredibly dependent on that slot corner.   Now that we are missing that guy, our whole secondary is out of funk.   

 

I've been telling folks Chykie & Gino was a complete bust right after their first year.   I don't know what the obssession is with our FO putting all their chips on untested & unproven commodity on 2nd/3rd year 'vets' that has been sitting on the bench till then.  That's never how our FO worked.  And few of these pieces are costing us major dividends.

[rmcjacket23]

What about the dead money after though? It makes more sense to keep Webb at that point.

The dead money is irrelevant... its a sunk cost. It means no decision you can make in the future changes anything about the dead money.

 

Sunk costs should have no impact on decision making.

[rmcjacket23]

Bigger concern was putting faith in Chykie to be that 3rd guy.   We had the fortune to have Cary Williams, Josh Wilson, Corey Graham for past 5 years who were worth well above the #3.   We were also incredibly dependent on that slot corner.   Now that we are missing that guy, our whole secondary is out of funk.   

 

I've been telling folks Chykie & Gino was a complete bust right after their first year.   I don't know what the obssession is with our FO putting all their chips on untested & unproven commodity on 2nd/3rd year 'vets' that has been sitting on the bench till then.  That's never how our FO worked.  And few of these pieces are costing us major dividends.

But Chykie was never intended to be our 3rd corner. He was supposed to be, at best, the 4th corner.

 

When Webb starts the season injured, than Asa gets injured, and then Jimmy gets injured, that's how Chykie becomes the 3rd or even 2nd corner.

 

There is no question that we came into the season without a proven slot corner, but then again, we've come into a lot of seasons in our franchise's history without even a legit #1 corner, let alone a slot corner.

 

The biggest issue I have with the fanbase is that they want 6-7 positions upgraded, and they want it all done within a matter of months. Even the dumbest fans know that's incredibly naive and unreasonable, and every single fan that posts on here knows it. Thats what this board has become... fans posting second-guessing messages about "I told you we needed like 5 more corners" and blah blah blah. Its just fans beating their chest to make themselves sleep better at this point.

 

At the end of the day... the franchise addressed the positions that the fanbase wanted addressed in the offseason. You wanted another WR... they got you Steve Smith. You wanted wholesale changes on the offensive line... they added a center, let a RT walk, and upgraded internally. You wanted to fix the run game... they did that. They did what you fans wanted them to do... but they didn't do EVERYTHING that they wanted you to do. That's not a Ravens problem... that's a FAN problem.

 

Nobody realistically thought this was a SB contending team this season anyway based strictly on personnel. The window for this team isn't nearly closed, nor is it going to be anytime soon. We are building a team to compete in the long run, and we're doing a pretty good job of it.

[K-Dog]

Webb has been the secondary biggest disaster this year. He has given up most of the yard this season and is not playing like he used to. We should try and cut our losses after this season or ne needs to take a huge pay cut

I can think of much bigger disasters.