Lardarius Webb (merged)

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

No, we wouldn't.

 

If you cut him in 2014 (pre-June 1), he carries a $10M cap number in 2015 and $0 in 2016.

If you cut him in 2014 (post-June 1), he carries a $4M cap number in 2015 and a $6M cap number in 2016.

 

In both scenarios, the Ravens still have $10M in cap space that Webb will take up. The only question is whether they want to take it all in one year or take it over two years.

 

 

I'm just telling you what this site is telling me.If you don't want to believe me just look for yourself.

 

 

http://overthecap.com/player/lardarius-webb/1387

 

Just switch it to post June 1st cut and it says we'll save $8 million in 2016 and have $4 million in dead cap for that year.

[rmcjacket23]

I'm just telling you what this site is telling me.If you want to believe me just look for yourself.

 

 

http://overthecap.com/player/lardarius-webb/1387

 

Just switch it to post June 1st cut and it says we'll save $8 million in 2016 and have $4 million in dead cap for that year.

Yes, and I agree with that. You'll have $4M in dead money in 2015.

 

What you aren't considering is that the $6M doesn't magically go away... it just gets pushed to 2016.

 

So you'll save $8M in 2015, and it'll cost you $6M in 2016, for a net gain of $2M. That's the same $2M net gain that you would take in 2015 by just cutting Webb as a pre-June 1.

 

Again, a Post June-1 cut is simply trading a reduction of cap space in the current year for a larger cap hit the following season.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

Yes, and I agree with that. You'll have $4M in dead money in 2015.

 

What you aren't considering is that the $6M doesn't magically go away... it just gets pushed to 2016.

 

So you'll save $8M in 2015, and it'll cost you $6M in 2016, for a net gain of $2M. That's the same $2M net gain that you would take in 2015 by just cutting Webb as a pre-June 1.

 

Again, a Post June-1 cut is simply trading a reduction of cap space in the current year for a larger cap hit the following season.

 

 

You didn't agree with it because I said 2016.Not 2015.

[rmcjacket23]

You didn't agree with it because I said 2016.Not 2015.

Thats fine. Overthecap isn't going to tell you what the dead money in 2016 is for a 2015 Post-June 1 cut, because the website doesn't update that.

 

The bottom line is this... Webb has $10M in bonus money that he's already been paid that will be 100% recognized by the Ravens at some point. That is not changeable no matter if or when he's cut, or even if he's traded. The Ravens are 100% on the hook for that amount of cap space at some point. It could be all of it in 2015, it could be some in 2015 and some in 2016, or he could be here for 3 more years.

 

In any scenario, he still is going to cost the Ravens $10M in cap space in the future.

[GrimCoconut]

I think Webb could be cut if we sign a free agent CB and draft a CB with promise high in the draft and we're confident Jimmy Smith will return with no setbacks. It's also likely he's gone if he just can't cut it anymore, which looks possible.

[ratedr]

Another great contract from The Wizard.

[tolucaraven]

If Webb stays he needs to play safety. He could be great at that position. Less cutting and he has good instincts and football IQ.

[Maryland]

Yes, and I agree with that. You'll have $4M in dead money in 2015.

 

What you aren't considering is that the $6M doesn't magically go away... it just gets pushed to 2016.

 

So you'll save $8M in 2015, and it'll cost you $6M in 2016, for a net gain of $2M. That's the same $2M net gain that you would take in 2015 by just cutting Webb as a pre-June 1.

 

Again, a Post June-1 cut is simply trading a reduction of cap space in the current year for a larger cap hit the following season.

I've got to vouch the hell out of your understanding of the cap on here man. I wouldn't have the patience to keep going over it again and again.

 

The post-june 1 cut chart on OTC doesn't illustrate the signing bonus carry over for the next year people. You're still going to take 10 mil in dead money, whether you're taking the full 10 in 2015, or spreading it out 4 mil and 6 mil over 2015 and 2016.

 

You had better be sure you have a replacement for Webb before you cut him, and with only Jimmy Smith and an injury-prone and unproven Asa Jackson as our only other CBs, creating more holes in the secondary for 2 mil in savings just isn't likely unless they draft a CB and/or find one in FA, and any FA replacement we pick up would have to be perceived as superior to Webb while be paid at a value commensurate to the 2 mil in savings we would receive by cutting Webb. 

[Kaiowas]

cut webb and canty, cut salary Pitta and ir ( he will not play again ), extend ngata and yanda, sign torrey, justin tucker, will hill, and look good in draft

[rmcjacket23]

I've got to vouch the hell out of your understanding of the cap on here man. I wouldn't have the patience to keep going over it again and again.

 

The post-june 1 cut chart on OTC doesn't illustrate the signing bonus carry over for the next year people. You're still going to take 10 mil in dead money, whether you're taking the full 10 in 2015, or spreading it out 4 mil and 6 mil over 2015 and 2016.

 

You had better be sure you have a replacement for Webb before you cut him, and with only Jimmy Smith and an injury-prone and unproven Asa Jackson as our only other CBs, creating more holes in the secondary for 2 mil in savings just isn't likely unless they draft a CB and/or find one in FA, and any FA replacement we pick up would have to be perceived as superior to Webb while be paid at a value commensurate to the 2 mil in savings we would receive by cutting Webb. 

Agreed. I think the post-June 1 is a possibility, but it would only be if the FO felt that they had enough depth in the secondary to withstand the release, which I doubt is likely to be achieved in a single offseason.

 

Its sort of a "dance with the devil" scenario. On one hand, you might like to get Rice, Pitta and Webb completely off the books in 2015, because you've got Jimmy coming up for a deal in 2016, and Flacco's cap number doubles, with no guarantee of him extending or restructuring. Given that, it might be wise to get as much dead money off the books as possible in 2014, but that obviously limits our ability to spend in FA to begin with, meaning finding a corner in FA will be difficult in our price range.

 

Conversely, do you really want dead money in back to back seasons for one player who isn't contributing to your team? Of put another way... if Webb is say the third or fourth corner... isn't he still pretty good for that kind of depth? I'd feel pretty comfortable with Webb in a nickel corner role if you asked me.

[Sami84]

If we can find a way to create enough cap to do this in FA it will be worth it

Byron maxwell

Walter thurmond

Imagine

Jimmy

Maxwell

Thurmond

Hill

Man to man..

[redlobster]

If we can find a way to create enough cap to do this in FA it will be worth it

Byron maxwell

Walter thurmond

Imagine

Jimmy

Maxwell

Thurmond

Hill

Man to man..

 

Both played in the Seattle secondary with Thomas and Chancellor making them look better than they are. I would not want either unless vet minimum contracts, not to mention Thurmond tore his pectoral muscle and lost this season.

[Sami84]

They have size and play good man to man. I like maxwell in particular

[gabefergy]

Honestly at this point if we can get out of it with no money owed, I'd be with it. FWIW I don't think this is an effort or lack of concentration issue, I just feel that two acl tears saps too much of your athleticism for you to be able to keep up in the nfl. There are obv exceptions, but its starting to become a trend (webb, rg3, former giants corner who had 3)  

 

edit: Just checked the cap implications, we'd save about 5 mil so its worth it. Gotta rebuild the secondary thru the draft. Resigning Hill will be a huge priority. Fortunately other than Flacoo's contract, the rest of our team is relatively cheap next year

We would only save 8 Million if we used a post June 1 designation, which just pushes the cap hit to the next year. I don't think that is something the Ravens will do, but I guess it's possible. 

 

Here's a link breaking down the contract:

 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2014/10/14/baltimore-ravens-salary-cap/will-lardarius-webb-return-to-the-ravens-in-2015/

[rmcjacket23]

We would only save 4 Million if we used a post June 1 designation, which just pushes the cap hit to the next year. I don't think that is something the Ravens will do, but I guess it's possible. 

 

Here's a link breaking down the contract:

 

http://russellstreetreport.com/2014/10/14/baltimore-ravens-salary-cap/will-lardarius-webb-return-to-the-ravens-in-2015/

Right. The only way I see it happening is either 1. if the Ravens add like two corners prior to June 1 that they think are better than Webb or 2. if somehow a corner they really like more becomes available over the summer and they need the cap space.

 

I suspect Webb is probably done in Baltimore after 2015 regardless, unless he takes a major paycut. In which case, there's a $6M cap hit in 2016 regardless of whether he's cut after June 1 2015 or in 2016.

[gabefergy]

Edit: I meant to say we would save 8 million if the post June 1st was used, but as other have pointed out, most of that money doesn't become available until after June 1 which kind of defeats the purpose a bit.

 

It also makes the cap situation that much tougher in the future. Ozzie has done restructures, Yanda, Suggs, and Webb as of late, but he is on record saying he prefers not to do it and none of the restructures have been huge amounts so I doubt he would do this.

 

After 2015 I find it likely that he is let go unless his play improves dramatically.

[rmcjacket23]

Edit: I meant to say we would save 8 million if the post June 1st was used, but as other have pointed out, most of that money doesn't become available until after June 1 which kind of defeats the purpose a bit.

 

It also makes the cap situation that much tougher in the future. Ozzie has done restructures, Yanda, Suggs, and Webb as of late, but he is on record saying he prefers not to do it and none of the restructures have been huge amounts so I doubt he would do this.

 

After 2015 I find it likely that he is let go unless his play improves dramatically.

Its easier to give extensions rather than restructures. Restructures solve zero problems in the long-run.

[gabefergy]

Its easier to give extensions rather than restructures. Restructures solve zero problems in the long-run.

Webb and Yanda were both restructured. Suggs was essentially restructured when given his extension before his old contract was up. It's still converting base salary into bonus, just a difference in whether additional years are added on.

[rmcjacket23]

Webb and Yanda were both restructured. Suggs was essentially restructured when given his extension before his old contract was up. It's still converting base salary into bonus, just a difference in whether additional years are added on.

Right, but adding the years on makes all the difference. There's no point in really restructuring contracts that you don't plan on extending the player, because you're just taking non-guaranteed salary, guaranteeing it in the form of a bonus, and pushing the cap number in future years higher. The player doesn't lose any money unless he takes a pay cut, and the franchise only increases its dead money in the event he's cut.

 

Suggs contract was essentially a full blown extension, and it will be the same for Ngata and/or Yanda if they choose to do it this offseason, which is likely.

[Maryland]

Agreed. I think the post-June 1 is a possibility, but it would only be if the FO felt that they had enough depth in the secondary to withstand the release, which I doubt is likely to be achieved in a single offseason.

 

Its sort of a "dance with the devil" scenario. On one hand, you might like to get Rice, Pitta and Webb completely off the books in 2015, because you've got Jimmy coming up for a deal in 2016, and Flacco's cap number doubles, with no guarantee of him extending or restructuring. Given that, it might be wise to get as much dead money off the books as possible in 2014, but that obviously limits our ability to spend in FA to begin with, meaning finding a corner in FA will be difficult in our price range.

 

Conversely, do you really want dead money in back to back seasons for one player who isn't contributing to your team? Of put another way... if Webb is say the third or fourth corner... isn't he still pretty good for that kind of depth? I'd feel pretty comfortable with Webb in a nickel corner role if you asked me.

Taking on the full amount of dead money in 2015 is a thought I had not considered, and frankly, it's a depressing scenario to think about lol. It's a good point though... If you're going to take on over 33 mil in dead money (between Rice, Webb, Pitta, and a bunch of other random scrubs and cap casualties), it's probably best to do it all in one season and rebuild for next year (ie: tank a season). It might be best to just swallow those poisonous contracts in 1 year if that's our fate. It would be like 2002 all over again.

 

That said, I think Oz will probably try to build a playoff team despite the dead money. It's still doable. It's not his style to tank a season. Plus there is still a slim chance Pitta could prove useful in 2015 and Webb could still be a decent #4 CB... or he could try safety. 

[Dewy101]

With the way he's been playing he's going to be forced to restructure if not he's cut no team is going to pay anywhere near the amount he's scheduled to make next season.

[jazz1988]

If we can find a way to create enough cap to do this in FA it will be worth it

Byron maxwell

Walter thurmond

Imagine

Jimmy

Maxwell

Thurmond

Hill

Man to man..

 

I doubt the Seahawks let Maxwell walk and he shouldn't be expensive either. Thurmond can't stay healthy for nothing you might well just keep Webb on a pay cut

[rmcjacket23]

With the way he's been playing he's going to be forced to restructure if not he's cut no team is going to pay anywhere near the amount he's scheduled to make next season.

But there enlies the problem... Webb sort of has pretty strong leverage in 2015. The cap savings from cutting him is only $2M next season. Even as a 3rd or 4th corner, he's probably worth $2M in cap space, particularly when you literally have nobody to replace him on the roster currently.

 

Typically, when a team asks a player to take a paycut or negotiate a lower contract, the team has some leverage in the matter, meaning that the player knows that the team might cut him if he doesn't take a lower deal, and that player wouldn't be able to find nearly as much money on the open market.

 

I'm not sure the Ravens are really in that position in 2015. They only end up in that position if they literally add a bunch of corners they think can play in the offseason, in which case he would likely be a post-June 1 cut.

[TuckerTime9]

Webb has been awful this season, but if he takes a paycut they need to keep him. When Jimmy comes back he takes one side, we could sign someone like Chris Harris Jr. and then move Webb to the slot, where he's elite. 

[Sami84]

i just hope jimmy doesn't have a drop off because of this injury.

 

it would be so typical if he suddenly lost it..

[gabefergy]

Right, but adding the years on makes all the difference. There's no point in really restructuring contracts that you don't plan on extending the player, because you're just taking non-guaranteed salary, guaranteeing it in the form of a bonus, and pushing the cap number in future years higher. The player doesn't lose any money unless he takes a pay cut, and the franchise only increases its dead money in the event he's cut.

 

Suggs contract was essentially a full blown extension, and it will be the same for Ngata and/or Yanda if they choose to do it this offseason, which is likely.

Well a restructure can still help relieve salary cap, especially if the player has several years left on his deal and is a productive player. Restructuring a player like Yanda has had zero ramifications, but with Webb it is looking problematic because his play has fallen off so much.

[jazz1988]

Webb has been awful this season, but if he takes a paycut they need to keep him. When Jimmy comes back he takes one side, we could sign someone like Chris Harris Jr. and then move Webb to the slot, where he's elite. 

 

I don't follow other teams often but I thought for sure Chris Harris Jr excels as  a nickel cornerback. I think The Ravens just need a solid outside cornerback that's taller than 5'10" whom they can trust in man coverage on occasion just like with Corey Graham.

[rmcjacket23]

Well a restructure can still help relieve salary cap, especially if the player has several years left on his deal and is a productive player. Restructuring a player like Yanda has had zero ramifications, but with Webb it is looking problematic because his play has fallen off so much.

It only helps relieve cap space overall IF the player takes a paycut. If its not a paycut, which Webb's recent restructuring wasn't, its actually more costly in the long-term against the cap than the short term.

 

The Ravens actually increased the amount of guaranteed money (and thus guaranteed cap space) that Webb will have when they converted $4M of his 2014 base salary (which was not guaranteed) into a signing bonus. His cap number for 2014 was going to be $11.5M, and now it is 7.5M.

 

But that $4M didn't just disappear... they just pro-rated it for the remaining years on his contract. So for each 2015-2017, his cap number is now $1M higher in each season, and we would have to recognize that $3M or whatever is left of it at the moment we release him.

[gabefergy]

It only helps relieve cap space overall IF the player takes a paycut. If its not a paycut, which Webb's recent restructuring wasn't, its actually more costly in the long-term against the cap than the short term.

 

The Ravens actually increased the amount of guaranteed money (and thus guaranteed cap space) that Webb will have when they converted $4M of his 2014 base salary (which was not guaranteed) into a signing bonus. His cap number for 2014 was going to be $11.5M, and now it is 7.5M.

 

But that $4M didn't just disappear... they just pro-rated it for the remaining years on his contract. So for each 2015-2017, his cap number is now $1M higher in each season, and we would have to recognize that $3M or whatever is left of it at the moment we release him.

Of course it doesn't disappear. I never suggested it does, but when you are up against the cap creating $4M in cap space can be critical while spreading it out over 3 or 4 years has a lot less impact on the cap each year.

[MrPlankton]

Antoine Cason was just cut by Carolina. Maybe give him a shot? I know he hasn't been great, but I really don't think he could be worse than Gorrer or Levine.