Here's my bone to pick

[rmcjacket23]

Hrmmm...I would disagree, but not really an argument I'm interested in.

The point is, for Flacco, he excelled when he had the proper tools around him, and when he excels we are at our best. We paid him all this money and then basically said "go out and do it with one arm tired behind your back now"

1. I specifically said "caliber". I didn't say everybody had a #1. I said everybody has somebody who has the potential to be one in my opinion. But potential doesn't turn into reality often.

 

2. I agree, but remember what I said earlier... patience. You can't give him a rebuilt O-line and multiple offensive weapons in a single offseason, or even two offseasons.

[3-4ravdef509]

1. I specifically said "caliber". I didn't say everybody had a #1. I said everybody has somebody who has the potential to be one in my opinion. But potential doesn't turn into reality often.

2. I agree, but remember what I said earlier... patience. You can't give him a rebuilt O-line and multiple offensive weapons in a single offseason, or even two offseasons.

The definition of caliber is the level of ones ability, not their actual potential or production.

The timing is just terrible. He's in his prime now, and we seem to invest more draft picks and attention the defense instead of the offense. But Ozzie takes beat player available, so it is what it is

[rmcjacket23]

The definition of caliber is the level of ones ability, not their actual potential or production.

The timing is just terrible. He's in his prime now, and we seem to invest more draft picks and attention the defense instead of the offense. But Ozzie takes beat player available, so it is what it is

Sure, but think of it this way...

 

Do we really want Joe to spend another 2-3 years while a young WR learns how to play at the NFL level? WRs (unless you draft an "elite" one very early in the draft, which we won't, because we don't have those picks) typically are kind of like DBs... they generally don't really hit full stride in the league until like year 3.

 

We helped solve some problems on offense by FA (Zuttah and Smith) and by developing some of our own guys. I'm all for going to the draft to get some actual long-term talent in here on offense, but again, outside of O-line (which not sure we really need personnel help in at the moment), we really only need WRs, and they generally take time to develop.

 

It sort of makes sense to refresh the defense via the draft. We are historically great and recognizing draftable talent on defense, and you get them for four years at a great price. If you get enough quality draft talent at a cheap price, then you potentially have more money in the future to spend on offensive talent in FA.

[3-4ravdef509]

Sure, but think of it this way...

Do we really want Joe to spend another 2-3 years while a young WR learns how to play at the NFL level? WRs (unless you draft an "elite" one very early in the draft, which we won't, because we don't have those picks) typically are kind of like DBs... they generally don't really hit full stride in the league until like year 3.

We helped solve some problems on offense by FA (Zuttah and Smith) and by developing some of our own guys. I'm all for going to the draft to get some actual long-term talent in here on offense, but again, outside of O-line (which not sure we really need personnel help in at the moment), we really only need WRs, and they generally take time to develop.

It sort of makes sense to refresh the defense via the draft. We are historically great and recognizing draftable talent on defense, and you get them for four years at a great price. If you get enough quality draft talent at a cheap price, then you potentially have more money in the future to spend on offensive talent in FA.

I suppose that makes sense. But only if those players become available and we actually go after them, which historically Ozzie doesn't make big splashes in FA

[jazz1988]

Hrmmm...I would disagree, but not really an argument I'm interested in.

The point is, for Flacco, he excelled when he had the proper tools around him, and when he excels we are at our best. We paid him all this money and then basically said "go out and do it with one arm tired behind your back now"

 

Not really. it's not like Flacco had this elite receiver to pass to for the majority of his career and Anquan Boldin was not a number  one receiver in our offense and if anything it was Torrey Smith whom was getting most of the attention from opposing defenses.  I don't see how any one can really say that we have giving Flacco nothing after his big contract  because I litterally saw us last year trade for pretty solid left tackle  and re-signed  him, We traded for a center and gave up fifth round pick for him whom's playing pretty well so far, we re-signed a pretty good tight end in Dennis Pitta whom we all know is Flacco favorite target, We re-signed Jacoby Jones whom was playing pretty well last year and is one of the best kick returners in the league which is a major plus for a quarterback/overall offense, we signed Steve Smith whom clearly not playing like 35 year old receiver, we signed Owen Daniels whom clearly is a upgrade from Ed Dickson and Dallas Clark, and  the most important  thing we ever did which we probably should had done years ago was to get offensive coordinator that can really help excel Joe Flacco game .

[rmcjacket23]

I suppose that makes sense. But only if those players become available and we actually go after them, which historically Ozzie doesn't make big splashes in FA

Big splashes? No. But he is active in FA. Boldin and Steve Smith aren't really "big splashes" to the rest of the league, nor is trading for Monroe. But they did happen and they were undoubtedly "big splashes" for us.

[3-4ravdef509]

Not really. it's not like Flacco had this elite receiver to pass to for the majority of his career and Anquan Boldin was not a number  one receiver in our offense and if anything it was Torrey Smith whom was getting most of the attention from opposing defenses.  I don't see how any one can really say that we have giving Flacco nothing after his big contract  because I litterally saw us last year trade for pretty solid left tackle  and re-signed  him, We traded for a center and gave up fifth round pick for him whom's playing pretty well so far, we re-signed a pretty good tight end in Dennis Pitta whom we all know is Flacco favorite target, We re-signed Jacoby Jones whom was playing pretty well last year and is one of the best kick returners in the league which is a major plus for a quarterback/overall offense, we signed Steve Smith whom clearly not playing like 35 year old receiver, we signed Owen Daniels whom clearly is a upgrade from Ed Dickson and Dallas Clark, and  the most important  thing we ever did which we probably should had done years ago was to get offensive coordinator that can really help excel Joe Flacco game .

 

Here was the offense in those 4 games (actually, that whole year minus the inconsistencies.)

 

Decent run game, short passing game fulfilled by Rice and Pitta. Big plays down the field to Boldin, Jones, and Smith. 

 

Boldin would get big chunks because he could catch contested jump balls. Because of Rice and Pitta, the defense couldn't play back so opportunities for Jones and Smith arose. The o-line was solid, not great bot solid.

 

The only problems with the Kubiak offense is we lack big plays sometimes because we focus on quick throws and Joe doesn't have the fastest release.

 

So does he need an elite pass catcher? Yes, or a good complimenting plethora of receivers.  Right now we're not doing terrible but it's still a work in progress.

[ravensdfan]

1. I specifically said "caliber". I didn't say everybody had a #1. I said everybody has somebody who has the potential to be one in my opinion. But potential doesn't turn into reality often.

 

2. I agree, but remember what I said earlier... patience. You can't give him a rebuilt O-line and multiple offensive weapons in a single offseason, or even two offseasons.

 

He's in year 7. How long do we wait? Until he's ready to retire? Especially when one considers that WRs that are ready in year one to be that guy are rare.

[The Mom Gene]

Sometimes you just gotta wait until you get the right guys around a person.....  When you have a leaky O-Line, and No real #1 receiver, you're gonna have issues.  Considering the issues this team has faced, I'm thinking we have done exceptionally well....  We have been contenders in this league for all 7 of those years.  We truly do have some exceptionally spoiled fans. 

[rmcjacket23]

He's in year 7. How long do we wait? Until he's ready to retire? Especially when one considers that WRs that are ready in year one to be that guy are rare.

Short answer is... longer. It took the franchise and the fans at least 4 years to realize he was the guy to begin with (and some fans still don't think he is).

[3-4ravdef509]

Short answer is... longer. It took the franchise and the fans at least 4 years to realize he was the guy to begin with (and some fans still don't think he is).

 

Agreed. But it better not take longer than a couple years...lol

[ravensdfan]

Short answer is... longer. It took the franchise and the fans at least 4 years to realize he was the guy to begin with (and some fans still don't think he is).

 

I guess I wasn't really asking from a fan's position - just when the FO is going to actually invest in the offense other than throwing some vets into the mix which has had extremely mixed results.

[acranfor]

I guess I wasn't really asking from a fan's position - just when the FO is going to actually invest in the offense other than throwing some vets into the mix which has had extremely mixed results.

They have...

 

LT, LG, C, RT, WR, TE, RB have all been filled with young talent through either the draft or trades over the past 2-3 years.

 

Maybe you were specifically referring to receiver? I would argue that we have with Torrey Smith. Now I would agree he has not been consistent enough to live up to expectation, but you cannot keep drafting the same position year after year in the top rounds. That is how you become a perennial loser. Ozzie is good at staying the course and maintaining a well balanced team.

 

Personally, I do not see a WR worth taking in the first round this year unless Cooper falls. Fans will once again be disappointed.

[frozen joe flacco fan]

I don't understand why you said that and what basis you have for it....

Hey man, I was just responding to your long rant about the way we've played since winning the SB.

You have dominated this thread and have only concluded what most of us have known for two years ---

that is, Joe doesn't have a true #1 WR or a top-notch TE and lost his pass-catching relief valve, Ray

Rice. Its no small wonder we are where we are. Arguably, Boldin became a #1 WR in the playoff run.

Dennis was outstanding during the SB run and so was Ray Rice. If you're trying to say Je doesn't have the right receivers to get the job done, I'd agree. Just look at the leaping clutch catches wide

receivers all over the league are making in red-zone and non- red-zone situations. Unfortunately, it is what it is until The Wizard of Oz's philosophy changes to draft by position instead of best player available. Its hard to argue with his draft selection of C.J. Moseley but we didn't help the offense much through the draft.

I was also responding to another post on your original post regarding luck. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, which none of us are, to know that it takes some luck to win a SB. Of course we were lucky to get to the SB. Most great teams are lucky. Sometimes its better to be lucky than good.

You're preaching to the church, man, and you're beating a dead horse 'cause we'll dance with who

brought us the rest of the way for better or worse. I imagine Gary Kubiak is the most disappointed

of all. He was expecting to have a great TE and a better than average running back in his stable to

complement Steve Smith's talent. Now, he has neither. So...., its time to get behind the personnel we have and make the necessary adjustments. Turning Juice into a slot receiver would be one of mine.

Having him in the lineup just for blocking is underutilizing him IMO.

[Tank 92]

lol......Reading some of this stuff you would think the Ravens have been a bottom dweller for the last 10 years.

[rmcjacket23]

I guess I wasn't really asking from a fan's position - just when the FO is going to actually invest in the offense other than throwing some vets into the mix which has had extremely mixed results.

But my question to you would be... what kind of investment do you want to see? High draft picks? More FA acquisitions?

[3-4ravdef509]

Hey man, I was just responding to your long rant about the way we've played since winning the SB.

You have dominated this thread and have only concluded what most of us have known for two years ---

that is, Joe doesn't have a true #1 WR or a top-notch TE and lost his pass-catching relief valve, Ray

Rice. Its no small wonder we are where we are. Arguably, Boldin became a #1 WR in the playoff run.

Dennis was outstanding during the SB run and so was Ray Rice. If you're trying to say Je doesn't have the right receivers to get the job done, I'd agree. Just look at the leaping clutch catches wide

receivers all over the league are making in red-zone and non- red-zone situations. Unfortunately, it is what it is until The Wizard of Oz's philosophy changes to draft by position instead of best player available. Its hard to argue with his draft selection of C.J. Moseley but we didn't help the offense much through the draft.

I was also responding to another post on your original post regarding luck. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, which none of us are, to know that it takes some luck to win a SB. Of course we were lucky to get to the SB. Most great teams are lucky. Sometimes its better to be lucky than good.

You're preaching to the church, man, and you're beating a dead horse 'cause we'll dance with who

brought us the rest of the way for better or worse. I imagine Gary Kubiak is the most disappointed

of all. He was expecting to have a great TE and a better than average running back in his stable to

complement Steve Smith's talent. Now, he has neither. So...., its time to get behind the personnel we have and make the necessary adjustments. Turning Juice into a slot receiver would be one of mine.

Having him in the lineup just for blocking is underutilizing him IMO.

 

You said I couldn't tell the difference in talent...which I pretty  much spelled out in my original post. I'm just confused as to what you were implying...you havne't said anything I disagree with tho... just seemed to think I wasn't aware of things I am aware of

 

lol......Reading some of this stuff you would think the Ravens have been a bottom dweller for the last 10 years.

 

I don't mind losing...it's how we lose. We're so inconsistent. I predicted a loss to the Colts. I didn't fathom the offense wetting themselves for 2 and a half quarters while the defense forced 4 turnovers. And losses like these aren't hard to come by. 

 

Joe is the face of the franchise, with the big money contract. Where your money is, that should be winning you games. So for it's been up and down, a couple bright spots this year but also some more of the same struggles. That was the point hidden in my rant. Joe's paid to lead this team, to win games, and for his part he plays his butt off...but we don't seem to be helping him enough.

 

And I know you can't just surround him with All Pro talent, but between things we can control (resigning players, drafting and signing new ones) and things we can't (injuries, starters struggling) we're not doing him as many favors as some think we are.

[Tank 92]

You said I couldn't tell the difference in talent...which I pretty  much spelled out in my original post. I'm just confused as to what you were implying...you havne't said anything I disagree with tho... just seemed to think I wasn't aware of things I am aware of

 

 

I don't mind losing...it's how we lose. We're so inconsistent. I predicted a loss to the Colts. I didn't fathom the offense wetting themselves for 2 and a half quarters while the defense forced 4 turnovers. And losses like these aren't hard to come by. 

 

Joe is the face of the franchise, with the big money contract. Where your money is, that should be winning you games. So for it's been up and down, a couple bright spots this year but also some more of the same struggles. That was the point hidden in my rant. Joe's paid to lead this team, to win games, and for his part he plays his butt off...but we don't seem to be helping him enough.

 

And I know you can't just surround him with All Pro talent, but between things we can control (resigning players, drafting and signing new ones) and things we can't (injuries, starters struggling) we're not doing him as many favors as some think we are.

 

I wasn't referring to your posts.  There are some here that just constantly complain and act like our FO is clueless. It's pretty comical to read.

 

It's always frustrating to lose when it's obvious you have the capacity to win. I think we did some good things to help Joe and the offense, but the injury bug has temporarily derailed the plan. With some good fortune we'll get back on track. 

[PerpetuallyBored74]

You can find solid WRs in the 3rd and 4th rounds, not too many #1s, no, but solid #2s and #3s.

But you need to draft actual WRs in those rounds, not just special teams guys that are listed at WR on the depth chart.

That's been our issue, because without depth at WR, you can't go spread, and if you can't go spread, you can't go pass heavy and be consistently successful. And if your starters get hurt, you're scrambling to pick up practice squad and over the hill guys off the scrap heap.

[ravensdan]

I love these "inconsistent" offense comments thrown around. There is no offense in the nfl that succeeds every week in the nfl. Particularly on the road. Not Rodgers and the packers. Not Brees and the saints. Not Manning and the Broncos. There hasn't been one close since the 07 patriots that were still inconsistent in the one that mattered most.

This team has a better offense than the 12 team. This team is right there talent wise with the Bengals, Chargers, Broncos, Colts. I like Harbaugh/Flacco's chances against any of these teams in the playoffs. Look at the big picture.

[ravensdfan]

They have...

 

LT, LG, C, RT, WR, TE, RB have all been filled with young talent through either the draft or trades over the past 2-3 years.

 

Maybe you were specifically referring to receiver? I would argue that we have with Torrey Smith. Now I would agree he has not been consistent enough to live up to expectation, but you cannot keep drafting the same position year after year in the top rounds. That is how you become a perennial loser. Ozzie is good at staying the course and maintaining a well balanced team.

 

Personally, I do not see a WR worth taking in the first round this year unless Cooper falls. Fans will once again be disappointed.

But yet, that is exactly what we did with defense. Drafted the same positions with our high draft picks.

 

I was specifically referring to receiver - Torrey being the last one (4 years ago) drafted in the 2nd. 

 

We have not made any concerted effort recently to surround Joe with talent via the draft. Our FA talent has had mixed results - that would also cover trades. Vets we bring in - if I broke it down I'd bet they'd be losses over actual gains.

 

But my question to you would be... what kind of investment do you want to see? High draft picks? More FA acquisitions?

 

No. No more FA vets to fill gaps. That has not been consistently successful for us. Even if it is O lineman I'd just like us to treat the offense to some high draft picks though I was referencing receiver talent specifically when I typed it.

 

You can find solid WRs in the 3rd and 4th rounds, not too many #1s, no, but solid #2s and #3s.

But you need to draft actual WRs in those rounds, not just special teams guys that are listed at WR on the depth chart.

That's been our issue, because without depth at WR, you can't go spread, and if you can't go spread, you can't go pass heavy and be consistently successful. And if your starters get hurt, you're scrambling to pick up practice squad and over the hill guys off the scrap heap.

 

Agreed. 

[3-4ravdef509]

I love these "inconsistent" offense comments thrown around. There is no offense in the nfl that succeeds every week in the nfl. Particularly on the road. Not Rodgers and the packers. Not Brees and the saints. Not Manning and the Broncos. There hasn't been one close since the 07 patriots that were still inconsistent in the one that mattered most.

This team has a better offense than the 12 team. This team is right there talent wise with the Bengals, Chargers, Broncos, Colts. I like Harbaugh/Flacco's chances against any of these teams in the playoffs. Look at the big picture.

I don't expect dominance on the road, but points in the first half would be nice for starters.

[redrum52]

I don't expect dominance on the road, but points in the first half would be nice for starters.

We can't score in the first half because Pees is a terrible DC and the defense sucks. Look at the rankings. If we ran more man coverage we wouldn't be stone walled offensively.

[rmcjacket23]

I love these "inconsistent" offense comments thrown around. There is no offense in the nfl that succeeds every week in the nfl. Particularly on the road. Not Rodgers and the packers. Not Brees and the saints. Not Manning and the Broncos. There hasn't been one close since the 07 patriots that were still inconsistent in the one that mattered most.

This team has a better offense than the 12 team. This team is right there talent wise with the Bengals, Chargers, Broncos, Colts. I like Harbaugh/Flacco's chances against any of these teams in the playoffs. Look at the big picture.

Thats true, but the numbers between road and home during the Harbaugh era are staggeringly different to say the least.

 

While we can undoubtedly beat any team in the playoffs, the question is whether we can beat them on the road, or even a bigger question, is will we even make the playoffs?

 

Does no good to think we can beat all these teams in the playoffs unless we actually make it there. Prior to 2013, it seemed fans were taking that for granted.

[3-4ravdef509]

We can't score in the first half because Pees is a terrible DC and the defense sucks. Look at the rankings. If we ran more man coverage we wouldn't be stone walled offensively.

 

Lol...

 

You know, if Flacco had just thrown with his receivers in the offseason like we all whined for him to do we'd put up 40 points a game too

[3-4ravdef509]

Thats true, but the numbers between road and home during the Harbaugh era are staggeringly different to say the least.

 

While we can undoubtedly beat any team in the playoffs, the question is whether we can beat them on the road, or even a bigger question, is will we even make the playoffs?

 

Does no good to think we can beat all these teams in the playoffs unless we actually make it there. Prior to 2013, it seemed fans were taking that for granted.

 

I was among them....I had faith till the whistle blew last year that we'd made the playoffs no matter what.

 

And you're right. We play well enough at home, but I'm worried about this team scoring point on th road. Sunday will hopefully show some progress against a lesser team (but they are more dangerous now than they have been all season)

[rmcjacket23]

We can't score in the first half because Pees is a terrible DC and the defense sucks. Look at the rankings. If we ran more man coverage we wouldn't be stone walled offensively.

That's a myth though. Its not a coincidence that the two games we scored the least amount of points (and subsequently lost) were also the two games where the offense has the LARGEST number of possessions (12).

 

Also not coincidentally is the two games where we seemed to "dominate time of possession" and the two games where we were our best on offense (PIT and CAR) were the two games where we had the SMALLEST number of possessions (8).

 

For some reason, fans have actually started believing that because the defense can't get off the field, that the offense has less opportunities to score. Yet statistically, thats highly inaccurate. We've actually had MORE opportunities to score in those games... the offense just simply hasn't done it. In the Colts game, we possessed the ball 12 times with the intent of scoring. Our average drive time length in those games was less than 2 minutes of game clock.

 

That has literally nothing to do with the Ravens defense whatsoever. That is 100% on the offense. IF it were true that the defenses lack of getting critical stops actually led to the offense getting less opportunities to score, then I would agree with your sentiment. But in 2014, the exact opposite is occurring.

[3-4ravdef509]

That's a myth though. Its not a coincidence that the two games we scored the least amount of points (and subsequently lost) were also the two games where the offense has the LARGEST number of possessions (12).

 

Also not coincidentally is the two games where we seemed to "dominate time of possession" and the two games where we were our best on offense (PIT and CAR) were the two games where we had the SMALLEST number of possessions (8).

 

For some reason, fans have actually started believing that because the defense can't get off the field, that the offense has less opportunities to score. Yet statistically, thats highly inaccurate. We've actually had MORE opportunities to score in those games... the offense just simply hasn't done it. In the Colts game, we possessed the ball 12 times with the intent of scoring. Our average drive time length in those games was less than 2 minutes of game clock.

 

That has literally nothing to do with the Ravens defense whatsoever. That is 100% on the offense. IF it were true that the defenses lack of getting critical stops actually led to the offense getting less opportunities to score, then I would agree with your sentiment. But in 2014, the exact opposite is occurring.

 

I think he was kidding actually.

 

Or at least I hope he was...

[ravensdfan]

That's a myth though. Its not a coincidence that the two games we scored the least amount of points (and subsequently lost) were also the two games where the offense has the LARGEST number of possessions (12).

 

Also not coincidentally is the two games where we seemed to "dominate time of possession" and the two games where we were our best on offense (PIT and CAR) were the two games where we had the SMALLEST number of possessions (8).

 

For some reason, fans have actually started believing that because the defense can't get off the field, that the offense has less opportunities to score. Yet statistically, thats highly inaccurate. We've actually had MORE opportunities to score in those games... the offense just simply hasn't done it. In the Colts game, we possessed the ball 12 times with the intent of scoring. Our average drive time length in those games was less than 2 minutes of game clock.

 

That has literally nothing to do with the Ravens defense whatsoever. That is 100% on the offense. IF it were true that the defenses lack of getting critical stops actually led to the offense getting less opportunities to score, then I would agree with your sentiment. But in 2014, the exact opposite is occurring.

 

It is also no coincidence that those 2 games we had none or one time starting field position for our offense outside our own 20.

 

Colts game - once, started at our own 41. Started 6 times inside our own 20. 5 times at our own 20.

 

Bengals game- twice outside our 20. (40, 30). Once at Cin 41. One an INT, one a FG, one a missed FG. 5 times inside our own 20. 4 times at our own 20.

 

And that is directly related to the defense being unable to get off the field and allowing teams to march unabated between the 20s.

 

For comparison:

Steelers - 4 times outside our 20.

Cleveland - 5

Carolina - 3 but none inside our 20.

 

That doesn't even figure in how many times we started inside our own 10 in those losses.

[stampedehero]

My interpretation was based on Joes wealth portfollio which should have considered Boldin as he (and others) helped Joe attain his lofty status. I did not address an exodus of players. Boldin was pipe lined after Joe got his.

In 013 we could have made the playoffs if we won the last two games.  This year, signing SSmith was a bonus from nowhere..