Here's my bone to pick

[Dfence4champs2052]

It's hard to think we're only 20 ish months removed from winning our last Super Bowl. After last year's disappointing season, we've followed up with two embarrassing outings against good teams and we have two good wins against meh teams and one barely earned win against the Browns.

Our offense and defense both have blame for those losses, and it's a lot like last year - offense wets themselves for half the game, finally comes to life to gain a lead and the defense falters. Each side of the ball's struggles correlate with one another. The offense can't keep the defense rested and off the field, and the defense gives up long time consuming drives that rob away time that our offense could be on the field trying to get their act together.

What I get frustrated with is that after our Super Bowl win, we departed with the logic of holding onto the team and trying to repeat with the same players for trying to start afresh.

The end result of that endeavor has hurt both sides and taken away from what worked so well us two years ago.

The offense isn't near as explosive, we don't scare anyone. Sure, with kubes we for the most part move the ball and gain first downs more consistently, but outside one game we've had little amount of chunk plays and trend to dink and dunk down the field. Our run game is light-years better than last year but it's not enough.

Our defense is literally anti clutch. It's almost as if they are allergic to playing well at the end of a close game. The defense wasn't stellar before, but it came up with clutch stops, culminating in 4 straight stops with their backs against their own end zone to secure a Super Bowl victory.

We sent/traded away some key guys and their replacements haven't lived up.

What's worst of all imo, is Flacco played out of his mind, and we took away the tools that helped him get there.

You think that the formula that led to 11 touchdowns and no interceptions in the playoffs would be something that you would take a close look at and try to locate in the regular season. Why on earth we had this urge to change everything and focus on the defense I don't understand. I understand that there's a certain pride about defense here in Baltimore as we had a great one for a long time, but after Ray weft, our highest-paid player is on the offense. Therefore, don't you think we should be putting it on the offense to win games? He is hundred million Dollar quarterback, we need to give him the tools and the permission to play like one! This is what brought a second Super Bowl to our city, it was letting Joe and the offense lives to score points, and counting on the defense to make stops when they could, and that should make the most important plays at the end of the game when it mattered. We instead, decided to revamp everything with the explanation of revamping the defense because it wasn't to the usual Raven standards.

Anyways, I'll and my rent. I know that momentum has a lot to do with things, as well as luck, pun intended. We can't win the mall, and some games we're going to play better than others. It's just so frustrating for me, after seeing us play so well for four games Lestin two years ago, that we have only played to complete games since them. I can't think of many other teams to win the Super Bowl and have quite to drop off that we have . But here's the moving forward and team getting everything together.

So again, to sum up my rent, we want to Super Bowl playing a certain style on both sides of the ball, and we decided to change everything. The things that were once our strengths, are gone, and have a lot to do with why we have struggled over the past year of football

I apologize for any grammatical or random wrong words, as this was typed entirely on my phone and it's very hard to proofread. I will most likely make an edit once I'm home.

 

 

I can't say I disagree with any of this. Sums up my frustrations extremely well.

[3-4ravdef509]

I can't say I disagree with any of this. Sums up my frustrations extremely well.

 

Well thank you. I'm glad my intoxication inspired rant made sense to someone

 

In all seriousness, I have faith we'll figure it out. We did it once, we'll find it again. I sincerely hope. 

[3-4ravdef509]

I think the key thing to remember is... it really wasn't until 2012 when we fully realized that Joe was "our guy". There was always sort of that question in every bodies mind as to whether he would ever be the guy that could lead us to a SB and win it. 

 

The moment he became an incredibly well-paid QB, the days of us spending large quantities of money on defense and RBs should have become non-existent. Basically, the first thing any good franchise does when they sign a franchise QB is to get him help and weapons. That usually comes in the form of quality offensive lineman and receivers to throw to.

 

The problem is... doing those things take time, and Ravens fans have never been well-known for their patience (myself included). The idea of waiting 3-4 years for the FO to put together a top-end offensive line and receiving core isn't something most Ravens fans are willing to do.

 

While I have no doubt we are still capable of fielding a pretty good defense on an annual basis (certainly a good enough one to be a SB contender), I don't suspect you are going to see the Ravens fielding a defense with all-pros up and down the roster like we've seen prior in this franchises history. Its probably going to be mostly comprised of a "core" group of special players (such as Jimmy and CJ), a pretty decent group of quality/good players, and a large group of "fill-ins".

 

Like it or not, by default, this is Joe's team. When you pay a guy that much money, you've got to make sure that he's surrounded by players who are capable of making life great for him. Last season, he basically had nobody. Bad offensive line plays and pretty bad pass catchers. We slowly see that pieces of the puzzle are falling into place, and I think you'll see the franchise continue to attempt to surround Joe with offensive support.

 

Was too tipsy to completely read and respond before. Great post, you're right, sometimes patience is a virtue we don't have, and injuries, salary cap, so many things make it hard to stay competitive and yet we usually are.

[ravensdfan]

Failed to score at the end of the bengals game and failed to score at the end of the colts game. They had their chance and failed miserably. The offense was atrocious in both outings and we got lucky against the Browns. Don't care how you try to flip it. Defense did their job in both. You can't expect to win games scoring under 20 points.

 

lol answers that question. Always a pass.

 

20 play drives are not getting it done.

almost a 68% completion rate to opposing QBs is not getting it done.

Ngata leading the team with 2 INTs is not getting it done.

 

No matter how YOU try to flip it - ranking in the bottom for every statistic outside of red zone D is not getting it done.

 

I give those 2 losses to the offense just for the record, but this letting the defense off the hook is ridiculous.

[3-4ravdef509]

lol answers that question. Always a pass.

 

20 play drives are not getting it done.

almost a 68% completion rate to opposing QBs is not getting it done.

Ngata leading the team with 2 INTs is not getting it done.

 

No matter how YOU try to flip it - ranking in the bottom for every statistic outside of red zone D is not getting it done.

 

I give those 2 losses to the offense just for the record, but this letting the defense off the hook is ridiculous.

 

That's completely fair. The offense has had more highs and lows, and the defense has been consistently underwhelming except in the red zone.

[SomeCreepinaVan]

We also lost to Charlie Batch that year and looked pathetic against some good teams.

[3-4ravdef509]

We also lost to Charlie Batch that year and looked pathetic against some good teams.

 

You need to work on context...

 

I'm assuming you are referring to 2012. That's very true.

[Seseau]

We need a true #1 receiver not one past their prime. I wish we had gotten Dez Bryant a few years ago.

 

With Pitta being injure we also need a legit threat at TE. 

[3-4ravdef509]

We need a true #1 receiver not one past their prime. I wish we had gotten Dez Bryant a few years ago.

 

With Pitta being injure we also need a legit threat at TE. 

 

I go back and forth with this.

 

The receiving core has to be better as a whole. They need to know exactly where Joe wants them, what routes to run,  and they need to catch the damn ball

[frozen joe flacco fan]

Luck is what got us into the Super Bowl

No! Luck didn't get us to the SB. He got us to the second round of the playoffs two years ago. What

got us into the playoffs was a very good team led by Joe Flacco, who was well on his way to becoming

an elite quarterback when most of his best weapons were taken away from him and the mass exodus

occurred on the defensive side of the ball. The SB team included Ray Rice who eluded tacklers and

picked up a 1st down on a 4th & 29 to go situation, Dennis Pitta who played in only 4 games last year after missing the 1st 12 games of the season and Anquan Boldin who was sent to SF for a late round

draft pick. BTW, the SB team also included Ray Lewis and Ed Reed not to mention some other pretty

good offensive and defensive players who either retired or left for big paydays, i.e., Kruger,

Ellerbe, Cary Williams, Pollard, Jones, Ihedigbo, McClain, Leach, Oher and Birk. Did I leave anybody out?

A Roman philosopher named Robert Seneca once said "Luck is what happens when preparation meets

opportunity" so in that sense you were correct. Luck did help us get to the SB. Great teams make

their own luck and with some more luck this year maybe Luck, i.e., Andrew Luck, will help us get there again. I hope we get another shot at him in the playoffs this

year. So,I can understand the original poster's frustration but his apparent

inability to understand the difference between the talent pool of the 2012 team and this one eludes me.

Just think how well we might have done this year with a healthy Ray Rice, Dennis

Pitta and Anquan Boldin in this offense.

Hindsight is always 20-20 but it was probably a colossal mistake to bring Dennis

Pitta back for the last 4 games of the season last year. He should have sat out the

entire season so that his injured hip had more time to heal.

[HomeoftheBRAVENS]

In both our losses our offense hasn't don't squat in the first half while our defense has hold strong. Hate to mention this, but 3 OCs and our offense still is inconsistent as hell. Maybe we need to start looking at the personnel.

Also, name another period of time Flacco has ever played remotely that well?

 

 

Our offense is ranked top ten in the league while our defense is 16th and still you and alot of other ravens fans want to blame them for everything.I think they've looked good considering that we're not built to play outstanding on offense and we lost 2 of our biggest stars in Rice and Pitta.Most of our top draft picks the last few years have gone to the defense.IMO if we want the O to play at the level our D played in the past we need to devote some of our resources to finding a legit #1 WR and let Torrey be a #2 and Smitty be a #3.We need to stop looking for quick fixes at wideout.When you look at the offenses that finish top 5 in the league every year they all have one thing in common.They're WR heavy.We don't have one guy on offense who can line up vs a db one on one and win consistently.Steve Smith started off hot but he wasn't actually burning db's in that 4 game stretch.Alot of those plays we're good play calling,broken coverage and luck.Torrey Smith isn't good enough at route running to consistently beat guys.His specialty is big plays and we're not even getting that from him this year.If we find a #1 that can allow Torrey and Smitty be our #2 and #3 Flacco would go back to looking like Peyton and we would be alot more consistent offensively.

[stampedehero]

It's hard to think we're only 20 ish months removed from winning our last Super Bowl. After last year's disappointing season, we've followed up with two embarrassing outings against good teams and we have two good wins against meh teams and one barely earned win against the Browns.

Our offense and defense both have blame for those losses, and it's a lot like last year - offense wets themselves for half the game, finally comes to life to gain a lead and the defense falters. Each side of the ball's struggles correlate with one another. The offense can't keep the defense rested and off the field, and the defense gives up long time consuming drives that rob away time that our offense could be on the field trying to get their act together.

What I get frustrated with is that after our Super Bowl win, we departed with the logic of holding onto the team and trying to repeat with the same players for trying to start afresh.

The end result of that endeavor has hurt both sides and taken away from what worked so well us two years ago.

The offense isn't near as explosive, we don't scare anyone. Sure, with kubes we for the most part move the ball and gain first downs more consistently, but outside one game we've had little amount of chunk plays and trend to dink and dunk down the field. Our run game is light-years better than last year but it's not enough.

Our defense is literally anti clutch. It's almost as if they are allergic to playing well at the end of a close game. The defense wasn't stellar before, but it came up with clutch stops, culminating in 4 straight stops with their backs against their own end zone to secure a Super Bowl victory.

We sent/traded away some key guys and their replacements haven't lived up.

What's worst of all imo, is Flacco played out of his mind, and we took away the tools that helped him get there.

You think that the formula that led to 11 touchdowns and no interceptions in the playoffs would be something that you would take a close look at and try to locate in the regular season. Why on earth we had this urge to change everything and focus on the defense I don't understand. I understand that there's a certain pride about defense here in Baltimore as we had a great one for a long time, but after Ray weft, our highest-paid player is on the offense. Therefore, don't you think we should be putting it on the offense to win games? He is hundred million Dollar quarterback, we need to give him the tools and the permission to play like one! This is what brought a second Super Bowl to our city, it was letting Joe and the offense lives to score points, and counting on the defense to make stops when they could, and that should make the most important plays at the end of the game when it mattered. We instead, decided to revamp everything with the explanation of revamping the defense because it wasn't to the usual Raven standards.

Anyways, I'll and my rent. I know that momentum has a lot to do with things, as well as luck, pun intended. We can't win the mall, and some games we're going to play better than others. It's just so frustrating for me, after seeing us play so well for four games Lestin two years ago, that we have only played to complete games since them. I can't think of many other teams to win the Super Bowl and have quite to drop off that we have . But here's the moving forward and team getting everything together.

So again, to sum up my rent, we want to Super Bowl playing a certain style on both sides of the ball, and we decided to change everything. The things that were once our strengths, are gone, and have a lot to do with why we have struggled over the past year of football

I apologize for any grammatical or random wrong words, as this was typed entirely on my phone and it's very hard to proofread. I will most likely make an edit once I'm home.

First up.  You did that on your phone.  Bonus points for that.  We could have kept a few players but the most ridiculous move was pipe lining Anquan to SF.  You know, Joe could have sliced a couple mil to keep Anquan.  I mean whats the wealth difference between 121 and 115 mil???. He still ate cheap chicken tenders

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Someone brought up a good point in a thread. Name the last team to win a SB with a true #1. I think it was the Colts with Marvin Harrison. My point is, teams who usually carry a #1 instead of a strong committee don't usually make it that far. You just need reliable targets, not necessarily a super star.

 

2013 - Golden Tate (the weakest #1 in this group, with just 99 targets and mediocre production, though this year he's stepped up for Detroit)

2012 - Anquan Boldin and Torrey Smith (both had over 100 targets during that season, with Dennis Pitta at 94)

2011 - Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz (before injuries derailed him, Nicks was a true #1 == both had over 130 targets that year)

2010 - Greg Jennings (though it was a young Jordy Nelson who stepped up and played like a #1 in that SB, Jennings had 125 targets that year)

2009 - Marques Colston (similar to Boldin in production, but still a #1 with over 100 targets)

2008 - Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes (the latter taking MVP for that SB, both had over 100 targets)

2007 - Plaxico Burress (no, really, with 141 targets he was overwhelmingly Eli's go-to guy)

2006 - Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne (both produced like #1's that year, each with over 135 targets)

 

So, aside from last year for Seattle, not only did every championship team have a true #1, but quite a few actually had two of them.

[stampedehero]

Our offense is ranked top ten in the league while our defense is 16th and still you and alot of other ravens fans want to blame them for everything.I think they've looked good considering that we're not built to play outstanding on offense and we lost 2 of our biggest stars in Rice and Pitta.Most of our top draft picks the last few years have gone to the defense.IMO if we want the O to play at the level our D played in the past we need to devote some of our resources to finding a legit #1 WR and let Torrey be a #2 and Smitty be a #3.We need to stop looking for quick fixes at wideout.When you look at the offenses that finish top 5 in the league every year they all have one thing in common.They're WR heavy.We don't have one guy on offense who can line up vs a db one on one and win consistently.Steve Smith started off hot but he wasn't actually burning db's in that 4 game stretch.Alot of those plays we're good play calling,broken coverage and luck.Torrey Smith isn't good enough at route running to consistently beat guys.His specialty is big plays and we're not even getting that from him this year.If we find a #1 that can allow Torrey and Smitty be our #2 and #3 Flacco would go back to looking like Peyton and we would be alot more consistent offensively.

Another idea to consider is the fact we have a new Offensive coach/system.  The time Joe stands there and whatever read down he takes is all important.  I also believe we had not tried the new guys to step into the WR role you highly regard. Aiken, Thompson should be given a legit chance to determine if their contracts are worthy. Was the mangements' money spent under the cap for position acquistition purposes  only?.   

[stampedehero]

2013 - Golden Tate (the weakest #1 in this group, with just 99 targets and mediocre production, though this year he's stepped up for Detroit)

2012 - Anquan Boldin and Torrey Smith (both had over 100 targets during that season, with Dennis Pitta at 94)

2011 - Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz (before injuries derailed him, Nicks was a true #1 == both had over 130 targets that year)

2010 - Greg Jennings (though it was a young Jordy Nelson who stepped up and played like a #1 in that SB, Jennings had 125 targets that year)

2009 - Marques Colston (similar to Boldin in production, but still a #1 with over 100 targets)

2008 - Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes (the latter taking MVP for that SB, both had over 100 targets)

2007 - Plaxico Burress (no, really, with 141 targets he was overwhelmingly Eli's go-to guy)

2006 - Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne (both produced like #1's that year, each with over 135 targets)

 

So, aside from last year for Seattle, not only did every championship team have a true #1, but quite a few actually had two of them.

The obvious fact is that we did it in 012. Rather than consider a  number one target designation,  i think our management sought another Boldin in the frame of Steve Smith.  Hey, SSmith can accomplish the same as what Boldin did in the latter part of the 012 season and playoffs.

[3-4ravdef509]

No! Luck didn't get us to the SB. He got us to the second round of the playoffs two years ago. What

got us into the playoffs was a very good team led by Joe Flacco, who was well on his way to becoming

an elite quarterback when most of his best weapons were taken away from him and the mass exodus

occurred on the defensive side of the ball. The SB team included Ray Rice who eluded tacklers and

picked up a 1st down on a 4th & 29 to go situation, Dennis Pitta who played in only 4 games last year after missing the 1st 12 games of the season and Anquan Boldin who was sent to SF for a late round

draft pick. BTW, the SB team also included Ray Lewis and Ed Reed not to mention some other pretty

good offensive and defensive players who either retired or left for big paydays, i.e., Kruger,

Ellerbe, Cary Williams, Pollard, Jones, Ihedigbo, McClain, Leach, Oher and Birk. Did I leave anybody out?

A Roman philosopher named Robert Seneca once said "Luck is what happens when preparation meets

opportunity" so in that sense you were correct. Luck did help us get to the SB. Great teams make

their own luck and with some more luck this year maybe Luck, i.e., Andrew Luck, will help us get there again. I hope we get another shot at him in the playoffs this

year. So,I can understand the original poster's frustration but his apparent

inability to understand the difference between the talent pool of the 2012 team and this one eludes me.

Just think how well we might have done this year with a healthy Ray Rice, Dennis

Pitta and Anquan Boldin in this offense.

Hindsight is always 20-20 but it was probably a colossal mistake to bring Dennis

Pitta back for the last 4 games of the season last year. He should have sat out the

entire season so that his injured hip had more time to heal.

 

I don't understand why you said that and what basis you have for it....

 

 

Our offense is ranked top ten in the league while our defense is 16th and still you and alot of other ravens fans want to blame them for everything.I think they've looked good considering that we're not built to play outstanding on offense and we lost 2 of our biggest stars in Rice and Pitta.Most of our top draft picks the last few years have gone to the defense.IMO if we want the O to play at the level our D played in the past we need to devote some of our resources to finding a legit #1 WR and let Torrey be a #2 and Smitty be a #3.We need to stop looking for quick fixes at wideout.When you look at the offenses that finish top 5 in the league every year they all have one thing in common.They're WR heavy.We don't have one guy on offense who can line up vs a db one on one and win consistently.Steve Smith started off hot but he wasn't actually burning db's in that 4 game stretch.Alot of those plays we're good play calling,broken coverage and luck.Torrey Smith isn't good enough at route running to consistently beat guys.His specialty is big plays and we're not even getting that from him this year.If we find a #1 that can allow Torrey and Smitty be our #2 and #3 Flacco would go back to looking like Peyton and we would be alot more consistent offensively.

 

I agree with this. We have a 120 million dollar qb but we seem stubborn in our quest to fund the defensive side of the ball first and foremost (although Mosely certainly is a keeper)

 

 

First up.  You did that on your phone.  Bonus points for that.  We could have kept a few players but the most ridiculous move was pipe lining Anquan to SF.  You know, Joe could have sliced a couple mil to keep Anquan.  I mean whats the wealth difference between 121 and 115 mil???. He still ate cheap chicken tenders

 

The idea that Joe's contract has in anyway contributed to the salary cap issues that caused the exodus last year is false, as Joe only made 6 million last year and I believe 14 million this year...his numbers don't sky rocket till the year after next when he will restructure as there's no way in the real world we could afford to pay Joe those high number 3 years in a row. It's pretty much a given of the contract.

 

 

 

2013 - Golden Tate (the weakest #1 in this group, with just 99 targets and mediocre production, though this year he's stepped up for Detroit)

2012 - Anquan Boldin and Torrey Smith (both had over 100 targets during that season, with Dennis Pitta at 94)

2011 - Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz (before injuries derailed him, Nicks was a true #1 == both had over 130 targets that year)

2010 - Greg Jennings (though it was a young Jordy Nelson who stepped up and played like a #1 in that SB, Jennings had 125 targets that year)

2009 - Marques Colston (similar to Boldin in production, but still a #1 with over 100 targets)

2008 - Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes (the latter taking MVP for that SB, both had over 100 targets)

2007 - Plaxico Burress (no, really, with 141 targets he was overwhelmingly Eli's go-to guy)

2006 - Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne (both produced like #1's that year, each with over 135 targets)

 

So, aside from last year for Seattle, not only did every championship team have a true #1, but quite a few actually had two of them.

 

Nice compilation.  So it's safe to say you need a legit number 1 caliber receiver, but perhaps not a top 5 receiver.

[rmcjacket23]

2013 - Golden Tate (the weakest #1 in this group, with just 99 targets and mediocre production, though this year he's stepped up for Detroit)

2012 - Anquan Boldin and Torrey Smith (both had over 100 targets during that season, with Dennis Pitta at 94)

2011 - Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz (before injuries derailed him, Nicks was a true #1 == both had over 130 targets that year)

2010 - Greg Jennings (though it was a young Jordy Nelson who stepped up and played like a #1 in that SB, Jennings had 125 targets that year)

2009 - Marques Colston (similar to Boldin in production, but still a #1 with over 100 targets)

2008 - Hines Ward and Santonio Holmes (the latter taking MVP for that SB, both had over 100 targets)

2007 - Plaxico Burress (no, really, with 141 targets he was overwhelmingly Eli's go-to guy)

2006 - Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne (both produced like #1's that year, each with over 135 targets)

 

So, aside from last year for Seattle, not only did every championship team have a true #1, but quite a few actually had two of them.

2006: I'll give you that one. Both were top 12 receivers in the league.

2007: Plaxico finished 21st in the league in receiving yardage and caught only 70 balls. Can't be perceived as anything more than the #1 on his own team, certainly not a #1 WR in the league. Ranked 17th in the NFL in targets

2008: Ward was 15th in the league in receiving yardage, caught 81 balls. Again, not really perceived as a #1 WR. Doesn't really matter whether Holmes was SB MVP or not. Ward was 20th in the NFL in targets.

2009: Colston was 18th in the league in receiving yardage, caught 70 balls. Basically the exact same as Plaxico, ranked 35th in NFL in targets

2010: Jennings was a #1 WR during this year. Had over 1,200 yards, finish 4th in yardage.

2011: Cruz and Nicks both finished top 12 in receiving that year

2012: Neither was in the top 25 in receiving yards, and neither was in the top 30 in the NFL in targets.

2013: 47th in the league in targets, under 900 yards receiving. Not even a part of this discussion realistically.

 

Basically, in my assessment, in the last eight seasons, you've got about three true #1 WRs in the league that actually won a SB. It doesn't really matter if they were the #1 WR on their own team or not, because there's no shortage of #1 WRs on teams that would be #3 or #4 WRs on other teams in the league.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

2006: I'll give you that one. Both were top 12 receivers in the league.

2007: Plaxico finished 21st in the league in receiving yardage and caught only 70 balls. Can't be perceived as anything more than the #1 on his own team, certainly not a #1 WR in the league. Ranked 17th in the NFL in targets

2008: Ward was 15th in the league in receiving yardage, caught 81 balls. Again, not really perceived as a #1 WR. Doesn't really matter whether Holmes was SB MVP or not. Ward was 20th in the NFL in targets.

2009: Colston was 18th in the league in receiving yardage, caught 70 balls. Basically the exact same as Plaxico, ranked 35th in NFL in targets

2010: Jennings was a #1 WR during this year. Had over 1,200 yards, finish 4th in yardage.

2011: Cruz and Nicks both finished top 12 in receiving that year

2012: Neither was in the top 25 in receiving yards, and neither was in the top 30 in the NFL in targets.

2013: 47th in the league in targets, under 900 yards receiving. Not even a part of this discussion realistically.

 

Basically, in my assessment, in the last eight seasons, you've got about three true #1 WRs in the league that actually won a SB. It doesn't really matter if they were the #1 WR on their own team or not, because there's no shortage of #1 WRs on teams that would be #3 or #4 WRs on other teams in the league.

 

A WR's stats are going to be impacted by the quality of his QB play, O-line, play design/calling (especially in the red zone) and whether he has another legit WR (or 2 or 3) next to him or if he's the only real pass catching threat.

But targets are going to be determined by whether or not he's his teams #1, and there is such a thing as an average #1 WR.

Which many of these guys are. But they're still #1's, or at least they were for that season anyway.

 

Incidentally, Plaxico caught 12 TDs in 2007 ranking 4th in the NFL that season. So he was certainly an elite red zone receiver.

For Ward and Holmes, Roethlisberger did not have a good season statistically: 59.9% comp, only 3301 yds and 17 TDs with 15 INTs. Same for Eli in 2007: 56.1% comp, only 3336 yds and 23 TDs with 20 INTs. So, Plaxico caught nearly half of Eli's TD passes. As for Colston, the Saints that year had plenty of weapons: Colston, Henderson, Bush, Shockey and Meachem all had over 60 targets each with the backup RB & TE both having 45 and 48 targets respectively. Brees was really spreading the ball around getting everyone involved. As for the 2 Ravens, well heck, you were there watching that season, so you know that the offense didn't truly click until Caldwell took over and made key adjustments.

These receivers don't play in a vacuum. You can't just compare stats without taking context into consideration.

All these guys, even if only average in production as #1's for that year were still true #1s (other than arguably Tate)

[rmcjacket23]

A WR's stats are going to be impacted by the quality of his QB play, O-line, play design/calling (especially in the red zone) and whether he has another legit WR (or 2 or 3) next to him or if he's the only real pass catching threat.

But targets are going to be determined by whether or not he's his teams #1, and there is such a thing as an average #1 WR.

Which many of these guys are. But they're still #1's, or at least they were for that season anyway.

 

Incidentally, Plaxico caught 12 TDs in 2007 ranking 4th in the NFL that season. So he was certainly an elite red zone receiver.

For Ward and Holmes, Roethlisberger did not have a good season statistically: 59.9% comp, only 3301 yds and 17 TDs with 15 INTs. Same for Eli in 2007: 56.1% comp, only 3336 yds and 23 TDs with 20 INTs. So, Plaxico caught nearly half of Eli's TD passes. As for Colston, the Saints that year had plenty of weapons: Colston, Henderson, Bush, Shockey and Meachem all had over 60 targets each with the backup RB & TE both having 45 and 48 targets respectively. Brees was really spreading the ball around getting everyone involved. As for the 2 Ravens, well heck, you were there watching that season, so you know that the offense didn't truly click until Caldwell took over and made key adjustments.

These receivers don't play in a vacuum. You can't just compare stats without taking context into consideration.

All these guys, even if only average in production as #1's for that year were still true #1s (other than arguably Tate)

So basically, in your opinion, in any given season, there's at least 20-30 #1 WRs in the NFL on an annual basis? That, in my opinion, is a major flaw.

 

I'm not in the business of nit picking and trying to explain why a WR only had 70 catches instead of 80 catches. I don't really care whether its because his offensive line was bad, whether he played on a run-first team, whether his QB was injured or sucked, or whether his OC sucked.

 

Much like QBs, everybody knows who the elite WRs are. They are the guys that seem to perform both at a high level and statistically regardless of what's going on around them.

 

Calvin Johnson is a great example. He played for the 2008 Lions, who didn't win a game, and started a pathetic offensive line and Daunte Culpeper (among others) at QB. All he did was post 1330 yards and 12 TDs that season. He did it again in 2010, with Shaun Hill and Drew Stanton as his QBs, behind a bad offensive line and a team that finished 6-10, he posted 1120 yards and 12 TDs.

 

This isn't overly difficult, and most fans grasp this concept. A #1 WR is a guy who if he's taken off the team he's currently on, he would instantly become the best WR on the overwhelmingly majority of the teams in the league. There isn't 20 guys in this league that can say that, regardless of what year it is.

 

I think too many people are getting caught up on a guy being the #1 WR on his own team vs. being a #1 WR in the entire league. Guys like Boldin and Torrey aren't those guys, because they probably wouldn't be the best WR on at least half the teams in this league. To put it in actual context and perception... #1 WRs in this league don't get traded for 6th round picks. Heck, they don't even get traded for 3rd and 4th round picks, which is how we got him.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

There's about 15 of them, yes. Though the number varies from year to year because of injuries, decline, new guys rising to that level, etc. Again, someone has to be an average #1 as they can't all be elite. I'm not saying most of those guys were elite, but they were still productive #1's even if only average in their production as #1's.

Heck, you wouldn't take 8, 9, or 12 TDs from your #1 WR? I would.

[rmcjacket23]

There's about 15 of them, yes. Though the number varies from year to year because of injuries, decline, new guys rising to that level, etc. Again, someone has to be an average #1 as they can't all be elite. I'm not saying most of those guys were elite, but they were still productive #1's even if only average in their production as #1's.

Heck, you wouldn't take 8, 9, or 12 TDs from your #1 WR? I would.

And that's where we disagree. If there were really 15, look at who the back end of that list would be. Here's the list from 2013.

 

In terms of players who would be on that back end of the list, you've got guys like Desean Jackson, Pierre Garcon, Eric Decker. You're also flirting there with guys like Torrey, Boldin, Kendall Wright, TY Hilton, etc.

 

If I were to take Desean Jackson off the Redskins and place him on any team in the league in 2014, I think there's maybe (and I'm not convinced there's this many necessarily) 10 teams in this league where he would be the best WR on that team.

 

That's not a #1 WR in my mind. Might be a #1 WR on 10 teams in the league, but he's a #2 WR on 22 teams in this league in my opinion.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

And that's where we disagree. If there were really 15, look at who the back end of that list would be. Here's the list from 2013.

 

In terms of players who would be on that back end of the list, you've got guys like Desean Jackson, Pierre Garcon, Eric Decker. You're also flirting there with guys like Torrey, Boldin, Kendall Wright, TY Hilton, etc.

 

If I were to take Desean Jackson off the Redskins and place him on any team in the league in 2014, I think there's maybe (and I'm not convinced there's this many necessarily) 10 teams in this league where he would be the best WR on that team.

 

That's not a #1 WR in my mind. Might be a #1 WR on 10 teams in the league, but he's a #2 WR on 22 teams in this league in my opinion.

 

The problem is that those guys you mentioned are all similar as they're all average to slightly above average (though I think Hilton is coming into his own this year as a legit top 10 guy) So, if you were to line graph all the #1 WRs in the league, you would get a bell curve with all those guys being lumped in around the middle. And that's my point, that an average #1 is still a #1. Which would mean there are around 15 guys every season who qualify, even if only barely. It's the below average #1s who are below replacement level for their position, guys who should be #2's but who are their teams #1 by default because of how poor the rest of the WR corp is. If we didn't have Steve Smith Sr. this year, than Torrey would be an example of such a receiver: a #2 forced into the role of a #1.

[redrum52]

Our offense is ranked top ten in the league while our defense is 16th and still you and alot of other ravens fans want to blame them for everything.I think they've looked good considering that we're not built to play outstanding on offense and we lost 2 of our biggest stars in Rice and Pitta.Most of our top draft picks the last few years have gone to the defense.IMO if we want the O to play at the level our D played in the past we need to devote some of our resources to finding a legit #1 WR and let Torrey be a #2 and Smitty be a #3.We need to stop looking for quick fixes at wideout.When you look at the offenses that finish top 5 in the league every year they all have one thing in common.They're WR heavy.We don't have one guy on offense who can line up vs a db one on one and win consistently.Steve Smith started off hot but he wasn't actually burning db's in that 4 game stretch.Alot of those plays we're good play calling,broken coverage and luck.Torrey Smith isn't good enough at route running to consistently beat guys.His specialty is big plays and we're not even getting that from him this year.If we find a #1 that can allow Torrey and Smitty be our #2 and #3 Flacco would go back to looking like Peyton and we would be alot more consistent offensively.

It's funny how prole will pick and choose when stats and which stats matters. I'll give you that we don't top y3ams early enough and let long drives occur but when you're barely scoring it dorent matter, just ask our offense who's numbers are probably inflated from the Steelers and Panthers games. The most points we've allowed were to the Browns in a game where the defense was horrific. The offense regardless of what the stats say they've been inconsistent from game to game and are the main reasons for our losses. And since you're so quick to point out rankings, why not mention where the defense is ranked by PPG which is what really matters? You can't score under a 20 in a game and expect to win in today's nfl. Moving the ball means nothing if you get nothing out of it which is what I'm seeing our offense do. Yards font mean squat without points to back them up.

And as far as number ones, Greg Jennings is sure playing great on 5 he vikings. You list us questionable at best. To me, there are maybe 10-12 true numsber ones in the leagle and almost every team you mentioned did it with a wr core by committee, the Packers and Saints being prime examples. Like someone else daid, just cause they're #1 one on the depth chart doesn't mean they are a number 1 in the league by most standards.

[rmcjacket23]

The problem is that those guys you mentioned are all similar as they're all average to slightly above average (though I think Hilton is coming into his own this year as a legit top 10 guy) So, if you were to line graph all the #1 WRs in the league, you would get a bell curve with all those guys being lumped in around the middle. And that's my point, that an average #1 is still a #1. Which would mean there are around 15 guys every season who qualify, even if only barely. It's the below average #1s who are below replacement level for their position, guys who should be #2's but who are their teams #1 by default because of how poor the rest of the WR corp is. If we didn't have Steve Smith Sr. this year, than Torrey would be an example of such a receiver: a #2 forced into the role of a #1.

Precisely my point... all of those back-end guys I listed are #2s forced into #1 roles. Garcon was a clear #2 in Indy... he's forced into a #1 in WAS. Decker was a clear #2 (maybe even a #3) in Denver... he's forced into a #1 in NYJ.

 

You're essentially making my argument for me. You're agreeing that guys who would normally be #2s on the majority of teams in the league are ONLY #1s because of the team they play for. That, in my opinion, makes them a #1 on THEIR team and a #2 or possibly even #3 in the grand scheme of the NFL.

 

I would also say... the true #1 WRs generally don't hit the FA market often, nor do they get traded often.

[kassaiscool]

My bone to pick will always be with offense. They have gotten off to a fast start this year, but against the colts they went 1/9 on 3rd downs with two turnovers on the offense. So they are getting 3 and outed on offense and turning the ball over while they are at it. Historically the ravens offense has been average to below average, without our Defense we would have no identity and been terrible all those years.

[PerpetuallyBored74]

Precisely my point... all of those back-end guys I listed are #2s forced into #1 roles. Garcon was a clear #2 in Indy... he's forced into a #1 in WAS. Decker was a clear #2 (maybe even a #3) in Denver... he's forced into a #1 in NYJ.

 

You're essentially making my argument for me. You're agreeing that guys who would normally be #2s on the majority of teams in the league are ONLY #1s because of the team they play for. That, in my opinion, makes them a #1 on THEIR team and a #2 or possibly even #3 in the grand scheme of the NFL.

 

I would also say... the true #1 WRs generally don't hit the FA market often, nor do they get traded often.

 

Garcon was the clear #2 in Indy...behind Reggie Wayne a potential HoF WR. Garcon also battled through some injuries early in his career. In 2011 though, Garcon led the Colts with 134 targets with Wayne close behind with 132, basically sharing the #1 role with both having similar statistics: around 70 catches, 5 TDs, 950 yds each. Mind you this was the year that Peyton was hurt, when they Suck(ed) for Luck, so both Wayne and Garcon were catching passes from a committee of Painter, Orlovsky and .Collins. Despite the poor play at QB, both produced at slightly below average levels for a #1. What you don't seem to realize is that Garcon, at the age of 25, developed into a legit #1 WR, one that led the league in catches last year.

How can you lead the NFL in receptions and not be a true #1 WR?

 

DeSean Jackson is small, so he isn't much of a red zone threat, but other than that he produces at a fairly high level, when healthy which is the other knock on him. You're not going to be a 3 time Pro Bowler if you're a below average #1 receiver, if anything you have to better than average to earn 3 Pro Bowl nods. So, yes that means the Redskins now have 2 solid #1 WRs, which is why they're both producing similar stats, with Jackson having more yards, and Garcon having more catches.

 

And Decker is hurt. Otherwise he'd be producing at average #1 WR levels too, like he did in Denver (yes, Peyton had two #1 WRs in Denver, with one being elite. Sanders is a downgrade from Decker as he is just a #2.)

[3-4ravdef509]

2006: I'll give you that one. Both were top 12 receivers in the league.

2007: Plaxico finished 21st in the league in receiving yardage and caught only 70 balls. Can't be perceived as anything more than the #1 on his own team, certainly not a #1 WR in the league. Ranked 17th in the NFL in targets

2008: Ward was 15th in the league in receiving yardage, caught 81 balls. Again, not really perceived as a #1 WR. Doesn't really matter whether Holmes was SB MVP or not. Ward was 20th in the NFL in targets.

2009: Colston was 18th in the league in receiving yardage, caught 70 balls. Basically the exact same as Plaxico, ranked 35th in NFL in targets

2010: Jennings was a #1 WR during this year. Had over 1,200 yards, finish 4th in yardage.

2011: Cruz and Nicks both finished top 12 in receiving that year

2012: Neither was in the top 25 in receiving yards, and neither was in the top 30 in the NFL in targets.

2013: 47th in the league in targets, under 900 yards receiving. Not even a part of this discussion realistically.

 

Basically, in my assessment, in the last eight seasons, you've got about three true #1 WRs in the league that actually won a SB. It doesn't really matter if they were the #1 WR on their own team or not, because there's no shortage of #1 WRs on teams that would be #3 or #4 WRs on other teams in the league.

 

I think the point is a number 1 caliber, not necessarily a number 1 that particular year.

[rmcjacket23]

Garcon was the clear #2 in Indy...behind Reggie Wayne a potential HoF WR. Garcon also battled through some injuries early in his career. In 2011 though, Garcon led the Colts with 134 targets with Wayne close behind with 132, basically sharing the #1 role with both having similar statistics: around 70 catches, 5 TDs, 950 yds each. Mind you this was the year that Peyton was hurt, when they Suck(ed) for Luck, so both Wayne and Garcon were catching passes from a committee of Painter, Orlovsky and .Collins. Despite the poor play at QB, both produced at slightly below average levels for a #1. What you don't seem to realize is that Garcon, at the age of 25, developed into a legit #1 WR, one that led the league in catches last year.

How can you lead the NFL in receptions and not be a true #1 WR?

 

DeSean Jackson is small, so he isn't much of a red zone threat, but other than that he produces at a fairly high level, when healthy which is the other knock on him. You're not going to be a 3 time Pro Bowler if you're a below average #1 receiver, if anything you have to better than average to earn 3 Pro Bowl nods. So, yes that means the Redskins now have 2 solid #1 WRs, which is why they're both producing similar stats, with Jackson having more yards, and Garcon having more catches.

 

And Decker is hurt. Otherwise he'd be producing at average #1 WR levels too, like he did in Denver (yes, Peyton had two #1 WRs in Denver, with one being elite. Sanders is a downgrade from Decker as he is just a #2.)

Because I don't really care how many balls he catches. If he's catching 15 balls for 50 yards, is that good or bad? Your basing his #1 WR status on one single season. You think he's going to lead the league in catches this season? He will be lucky to be top 20 based on his output so far, and there's no reason to think it will grow. He's going to struggle to get to 1,000 yards this season. #1 WRs in my opinion don't fluctuate between #1 WR and #2 WR on a yearly basis. They are either good when they are on the field, or they aren't on the field. Garcon doesn't fit that mold by any stretch, and neither does Jackson or Decker.

 

Elite players in this league play elite when they're on the field. The only thing stopping them is injury. It doesn't matter who the QB is, what kind of offense they run, what the offensive line is like, etc. That stuff simply doesn't matter when you're among the best WR in the league. Eric Decker is not going to get 1200 yards and double digit TDs in any season he's a Jet and he's the #1 on that team. It's not going to happen. We've seen what he does with bad QBs (see Tebow). Guys like Calvin Johnson simply don't have that problem, because they don't care who the QB is. AJ Green's had Andy Dalton throwing him balls for basically his entire career, and production isn't an issue for him. He, like most of the elite WRs, requires an injury to stop him from performing.

 

In my opinion, if you are constantly fluctuating between the #1 WR and #2 WR category on an annual basis due to your productivity that has nothing to do with injury, then you probably didn't belong in that top group to begin with.

[rmcjacket23]

I think the point is a number 1 caliber, not necessarily a number 1 that particular year.

Everybody has somebody that is 1 caliber. That's not a very good argument.

[3-4ravdef509]

Everybody has somebody that is 1 caliber. That's not a very good argument.

Hrmmm...I would disagree, but not really an argument I'm interested in.

The point is, for Flacco, he excelled when he had the proper tools around him, and when he excels we are at our best. We paid him all this money and then basically said "go out and do it with one arm tired behind your back now"