Official Vent thread vs Indy : who should walk home

[BmoreBird22]

No one is going to have the same blitzing numbers, it is kind of like drops, somewhat subjective, despite his holier than thou attitude.

 

I was really trying to point out the disparity between the numbers and our success when blitzing while everyone laments how horrid we are when we do so. Which isn't the case at all, so I've proven my point.

No, you really haven't proven your point. There isn't a huge difference in the numbers when they blitz, except for interceptions and YPA, but given the extremely low blitz total (somewhere under 25% of pass plays are blitzes), it's hard to actually make your point. Given the state of the Ravens corners, if they were to actually blitz more than the 23% that they already are, you're going to see more plays like that AJ Green touchdown pass.

 

The point that you're trying to make is that the Ravens need to get pressure to be successful, and that much is actually extremely true, and no one would dispute that. Just a quick glance of the basic stats shows nothing to support the Ravens get consistent pressure on the quarterback when they blitz. 

[BmoreBird22]

Well yeah, if the coach or someone comes out and says so that would be different.

 

My only point was that despite our weak secondary, we are successful with the blitz. What everyone remembers is when it fails because that is what is obvious.

They're not that successful, or anymore successful than when they don't blitz. Only difference between when they do and don't blitz is completion percentage in favor of the blitz, but YPA in favor of non-blitz and interceptions in favor of non-blitz. The stats I showed you provide nothing to suggest the Ravens should blitz more.

[ravensdfan]

No, you really haven't proven your point. There isn't a huge difference in the numbers when they blitz, except for interceptions and YPA, but given the extremely low blitz total (somewhere under 25% of pass plays are blitzes), it's hard to actually make your point. Given the state of the Ravens corners, if they were to actually blitz more than the 23% that they already are, you're going to see more plays like that AJ Green touchdown pass.

 

The point that you're trying to make is that the Ravens need to get pressure to be successful, and that much is actually extremely true, and no one would dispute that. Just a quick glance of the basic stats shows nothing to support the Ravens get consistent pressure on the quarterback when they blitz. 

 

Consistent pressure wasn't the point - play disruption was the point which the numbers support with the disparity in completion percentage.

 

You can bring pressure without an actual blitz but that is more a player beating their match ups more than a coaching thing.

[BmoreBird22]

Was worried about that. Guess we'll have to wait until a player/coach confirms what the call was or it'll just be an unknown.

It just confirms what I saw on the play. No, PFF is not an excuse to not watch the game, but given the fact that I've watched the game over and over, it's just a good way to back up what I already saw in the game. Daryl Smith was responsible for a zone in the middle of the field. His first step was going backwards off the snap before coming across to double team the inside receiver, then dropping back to cover the post.

Mosley doesn't make a move forward and is instead patiently reading the back. When the back started to come up toward the line of scrimmage, Mosley takes a step up, and upon seeing the back engage in a block, he got the green light to go blitz, which is something common when you're not tasked with covering.

[BmoreBird22]

Consistent pressure wasn't the point - play disruption was the point which the numbers support with the disparity in completion percentage.

 

You can bring pressure without an actual blitz but that is more a player beating their match ups more than a coaching thing.

They more than make up for completion percentage with a very large increase in YPA

What that basically tells me, the decrease in completion percentage and increase in YPA, is that teams are more willing to attack the Ravens deep and take more risks when the Ravens blitz, which is no surprise. The Ravens don't have good cover corners and taking extra players out of coverage means teams are going to take their chances.

 

Not really about them disrupting timing.

[berad]

It just confirms what I saw on the play. No, PFF is not an excuse to not watch the game, but given the fact that I've watched the game over and over, it's just a good way to back up what I already saw in the game. Daryl Smith was responsible for a zone in the middle of the field. His first step was going backwards off the snap before coming across to double team the inside receiver, then dropping back to cover the post.

Mosley doesn't make a move forward and is instead patiently reading the back. When the back started to come up toward the line of scrimmage, Mosley takes a step up, and upon seeing the back engage in a block, he got the green light to go blitz, which is something common when you're not tasked with covering.

Mosley and Smith move at the exact same time and Smith moves more laterally than backwards, he's either watching Richardson, following Luck's eyes, or tracking the WR on a drag in his area before breaking off deeper to a different receiver.

http://www.nflrush.com/story/wk-5-cant-miss-play-ngata-chance/39?icampaign=ru[profanity deleted]eampage_article

This is becoming a cyclical argument with no resolution. Difference of opinions.

[Inqui]

Mosley and Smith move at the exact same time and Smith moves more laterally than backwards, he's either watching Richardson, following Luck's eyes, or tracking the WR on a drag in his area before breaking off deeper to a different receiver.

http://www.nflrush.com/story/wk-5-cant-miss-play-ngata-chance/39?icampaign=ru[profanity deleted]eampage_article

This is becoming a cyclical argument with no resolution. Difference of opinions.

Not to mention being kind of a moot point if you're still on that Haloti intercept play.

[berad]

Not to mention being kind of a moot point if you're still on that Haloti intercept play.

Yup, I was just questioning PFFs defensive stats for us during blitzes that did not include that play or INT.

[BmoreBird22]

Mosley and Smith move at the exact same time and Smith moves more laterally than backwards, he's either watching Richardson, following Luck's eyes, or tracking the WR on a drag in his area before breaking off deeper to a different receiver.

http://www.nflrush.com/story/wk-5-cant-miss-play-ngata-chance/39?icampaign=ru[profanity deleted]eampage_article

This is becoming a cyclical argument with no resolution. Difference of opinions.

You're right, he did go laterally first, then back. He's definitely following Luck's eyes on that play. Luck appears to to turn to his inside receiver first before working through his progressions and ultimately turning to the left side of the defense. By the way, I never said which one moved first, just that there was a clear difference in the intentions of their movements. 

 

Anyway, it's worth noting that, for both teams, the inside linebacker who was lined up across from the offset back (fullback or running back) always covered that back. It was never the one perpendicular to the back, always the one lined up directly across. I don't think it's too much an opinion.

[Inqui]

I actually don't think that was a hold. Dumervil wasn't trying to turn his body or make a move that would constitute a hold by the offensive lineman. He kept his shoulders square to the offensive lineman, but just could not disengage. I really don't think it was a hold. 

 

Jimmy Smith did not struggle, at all. One catch for two yards. It was mostly Webb and Jackson given up long third down completions for the most part. 

 

CJ didn't blitz on that play. He was tasked with covering the running back, but the running back stayed into block, so Mosley came in on the blitz.

There was also the hold where he was well beaten and a few other looks where he had the edge but Luck went elsewhere. I'm not saying he had a bad game by any means, and there's no shame in being beaten by Reggie Wayne a few times. Point is that in the first half especially, Wayne was their go-to guy and his having a decent game doesn't warrant firing Pees or making the DBs walk home or anything to that effect. It was just a good player beating other good players at times - it happens and it's not worth panicking over.

[BmoreBird22]

There was also the hold where he was well beaten and a few other looks where he had the edge but Luck went elsewhere. I'm not saying he had a bad game by any means, and there's no shame in being beaten by Reggie Wayne a few times. Point is that in the first half especially, Wayne was their go-to guy and his having a decent game doesn't warrant firing Pees or making the DBs walk home or anything to that effect. It was just a good player beating other good players at times - it happens and it's not worth panicking over.

He may have been held on other plays, but on that Luck rushing touchdown, I just don't see a hold. He wash' taken to the ground, he wasn't being grabbed by the jersey as he tried to get away, no hands around the neck. He was just locked up on that particular play.

 

Again, Jimmy allowed literally one reception for two yards. Luck rarely looked Jimmy's way, and honestly, I wouldn't either when you consider 1) Jimmy usually has tight coverage and 2) Asa and Webb were giving HUGE cushions on just about every page.

[Inqui]

He may have been held on other plays, but on that Luck rushing touchdown, I just don't see a hold. He wash' taken to the ground, he wasn't being grabbed by the jersey as he tried to get away, no hands around the neck. He was just locked up on that particular play.

 

Again, Jimmy allowed literally one reception for two yards. Luck rarely looked Jimmy's way, and honestly, I wouldn't either when you consider 1) Jimmy usually has tight coverage and 2) Asa and Webb were giving HUGE cushions on just about every page.

I meant the Jimmy hold on Wayne in the first half, which probably would have been a first down.

[BmoreBird22]

I meant the Jimmy hold on Wayne in the first half, which probably would have been a first down.

I actually missed that play because the stream I had kept blanking out in the beginning of the game. It cut back after they had called the flag. What happened

[Inqui]

I actually missed that play because the stream I had kept blanking out in the beginning of the game. It cut back after they had called the flag. What happened

Wayne broke into space so Smith, who'd been beaten (again, not trying to bash Jimmy: this is a HoFer doing his thing), reached out.

 

Actually the play was a first down for TY Hilton (covered by Asa), so that was my mistake. But it could have been a first down to Wayne too.

[BmoreBird22]

Wayne broke into space so Smith, who'd been beaten (again, not trying to bash Jimmy: this is a HoFer doing his thing), reached out.

 

Actually the play was a first down for TY Hilton (covered by Asa), so that was my mistake. But it could have been a first down to Wayne too.

I was going to say that I thought they had declined the penalty. 

 

Is Marvin Harrison in the HoF yet?

[ravensdfan]

No, you really haven't proven your point. There isn't a huge difference in the numbers when they blitz, except for interceptions and YPA, but given the extremely low blitz total (somewhere under 25% of pass plays are blitzes), it's hard to actually make your point. Given the state of the Ravens corners, if they were to actually blitz more than the 23% that they already are, you're going to see more plays like that AJ Green touchdown pass.

 

The point that you're trying to make is that the Ravens need to get pressure to be successful, and that much is actually extremely true, and no one would dispute that. Just a quick glance of the basic stats shows nothing to support the Ravens get consistent pressure on the quarterback when they blitz. 

 

You are hung up on YPA. But when you consider the actual completion percentage yes, we are more successful when we blitz. The specific play is allowing 1 yd more per play (not significant either way) but if they complete that play 6% more of the time - then we are being less successful without the blitz.

 

I certainly am not advocating we blitz like back in the day. There is no in his prime Ed Reed in our backfield to allow for that, but we need to blitz more often than 20% of drop backs. In a perfect world you'd get pressure with your front 4 but it isn't a perfect world for us and is not happening with any consistency at all.

 

With a weak secondary, ranking 29th, allowing 20 play drives, 8 to 9 minute drives, our current scheme is simply not effective at all.

[jazz1988]

I was going to say that I thought they had declined the penalty. 

 

Is Marvin Harrison in the HoF yet?

 

Yes Marvin Harrison is in the HOF

[BmoreBird22]

Yes Marvin Harrison is in the HOF

I couldn't remember, but it wouldn't bode well for Wayne if he weren't

[BmoreBird22]

You are hung up on YPA. But when you consider the actual completion percentage yes, we are more successful when we blitz. The specific play is allowing 1 yd more per play (not significant either way) but if they complete that play 6% more of the time - then we are being less successful without the blitz.

 

I certainly am not advocating we blitz like back in the day. There is no in his prime Ed Reed in our backfield to allow for that, but we need to blitz more often than 20% of drop backs. In a perfect world you'd get pressure with your front 4 but it isn't a perfect world for us and is not happening with any consistency at all.

 

With a weak secondary, ranking 29th, allowing 20 play drives, 8 to 9 minute drives, our current scheme is simply not effective at all.

It's actually a little over 2 yards more per attempt, which is pretty significant. 

 

I'm sure you read my other reply, but a two yard difference in YPA, again, significant, and a fairly steep drop off in terms of completion percentage likely means that teams are attacking the Ravens deep when they blitz, and could you honestly blame them? If I saw Asa Jackson or Chykie Brown, or even better, Darian Stewart or Matt Elam in single coverage, I'd go right after them deep, too. Those are low completion percentage type plays, but they're going to get you higher yardage more often than not.

 

No, it's not going to happen consistently when four of the first five teams you're playing against have four of the best pass blocking offensive lines inside the entire NFL. 

 

Secondary only giving up four touchdowns, best in the NFL, tied with a team that played four games, defense as a whole giving up 16 points per game, third best in the NFL, forced and recovered the third most fumbles in the NFL, and have the best red zone defense in the NFL. Our scheme most certainly is working. Sorry they don't keep teams under 100 yards per game, but they're certainly keeping them out of the end zone. They have literally allowed seven touchdowns. There are 22 teams that have allowed that many or more passing touchdowns and the Falcons have allowed 10 rushing touchdowns. Believe it or not, the goal of the defense is to keep the other team from scoring, and currently, the Ravens REALLY excel at it.

[Tank 92]

Yes Marvin Harrison is in the HOF

Ummm, Marvin is not in the HOF.

[BmoreBird22]

Ummm, Marvin is not in the HOF.

Then Wayne won't get in

[izvoodoo]

Ummm, Marvin is not in the HOF.

 

 

Then Wayne won't get in

Is harrison up yet?  I thought his first year was next year.

[Tank 92]

Is harrison up yet?  I thought his first year was next year.

This was his first year of eligibility.

[Inqui]

Is harrison up yet?  I thought his first year was next year.

He got passed on this year, but it sounds like he's not fully out of the question for future.

 

Though as with the "was that Haloti play a CJ blitz?" thing, it's kind of a moot point. I'll rephrase that earlier sentence to call Reggie a potential HoFer and it still means the same thing: a lot of our yardage problems came more from Reggie being awesome.

[ravensdfan]

It's actually a little over 2 yards more per attempt, which is pretty significant. 

 

I'm sure you read my other reply, but a two yard difference in YPA, again, significant, and a fairly steep drop off in terms of completion percentage likely means that teams are attacking the Ravens deep when they blitz, and could you honestly blame them? If I saw Asa Jackson or Chykie Brown, or even better, Darian Stewart or Matt Elam in single coverage, I'd go right after them deep, too. Those are low completion percentage type plays, but they're going to get you higher yardage more often than not.

 

No, it's not going to happen consistently when four of the first five teams you're playing against have four of the best pass blocking offensive lines inside the entire NFL. 

 

Secondary only giving up four touchdowns, best in the NFL, tied with a team that played four games, defense as a whole giving up 16 points per game, third best in the NFL, forced and recovered the third most fumbles in the NFL, and have the best red zone defense in the NFL. Our scheme most certainly is working. Sorry they don't keep teams under 100 yards per game, but they're certainly keeping them out of the end zone. They have literally allowed seven touchdowns. There are 22 teams that have allowed that many or more passing touchdowns and the Falcons have allowed 10 rushing touchdowns. Believe it or not, the goal of the defense is to keep the other team from scoring, and currently, the Ravens REALLY excel at it.

 

Red zone defense - which no one is arguing is doing awesome.

 

However, teams marching up and down the field at will is not conducive to success. They have to get off the field - the offense needs, in general terms, more attempts to get a rhythm going. Sure, some days they'll be on from the go but usually offenses don't get a rhythm sitting on the sidelines forever and a day until our red zone defense shows up.

 

Not to mention it affects field position which also affects the offensive effort. No, the scheme outside the red zone is a massive fail. 

 

btw ypa comes out to 7.48 (rounding up) to 8.87 (rounding up) so no, not closer to 2 yards still less than 1 1/2 yards. When you then consider your point about the deeper plays being against the blitz - clearly that points to us being less successful when we don't blitz.

[BmoreBird22]

He got passed on this year, but it sounds like he's not fully out of the question for future.

 

Though as with the "was that Haloti play a CJ blitz?" thing, it's kind of a moot point. I'll rephrase that earlier sentence to call Reggie a potential HoFer and it still means the same thing: a lot of our yardage problems came more from Reggie being awesome.

I remember a few years ago there were rumors the Colts would trade Wayne to do a complete overhaul and the Ravens were believed to be the frontrunners, as far as the rumors went. Sigh, how awesome would that have been?

[Inqui]

I remember a few years ago there were rumors the Colts would trade Wayne to do a complete overhaul and the Ravens were believed to be the frontrunners, as far as the rumors went. Sigh, how awesome would that have been?

Yeah, I was actually just thinking about how if they cut him it would be a very Ozzie move to grab him on a two-year deal or something. It's a shame that won't happen any time soon though.

[BmoreBird22]

Red zone defense - which no one is arguing is doing awesome.

 

However, teams marching up and down the field at will is not conducive to success. They have to get off the field - the offense needs, in general terms, more attempts to get a rhythm going. Sure, some days they'll be on from the go but usually offenses don't get a rhythm sitting on the sidelines forever and a day until our red zone defense shows up.

 

Not to mention it affects field position which also affects the offensive effort. No, the scheme outside the red zone is a massive fail. 

 

btw ypa comes out to 7.48 (rounding up) to 8.87 (rounding up) so no, not closer to 2 yards still less than 1 1/2 yards. When you then consider your point about the deeper plays being against the blitz - clearly that points to us being less successful when we don't blitz.

Well, in every single one of the games so far, except the Colts game, the offense has been on the field for more snaps than the opposing teams offense. What do we blame for the failures against Cincy and Cleveland? Can't be that they need more snaps to get into a rhythm. He also had the same number of snaps against the Colts as he did against the Panthers, but he shredded the Panthers. So, that doesn't seem to make sense. 

 

You're right. For some reason I was remembering it as 9.87, not 8.87. Still, I don't see how that'd point to them being less successful. If the Ravens don't give up deep plays when they don't blitz, that's a good thing. That means teams have to work for every yard instead of moving the ball down with chunk yardage. 

 

By the way, I know you all love to criticize Pees for playing tons of zone (even though there's nothing to support this notion), but I rewatched the games several times from Sunday and the Ravens favored man a ton between the 20's and were split in the red zone. Can't blame Pees for "playing conservative zone" anymore.

[BmoreBird22]

Yeah, I was actually just thinking about how if they cut him it would be a very Ozzie move to grab him on a two-year deal or something. It's a shame that won't happen any time soon though.

Or ever

[Rav'n Maniac]

Oct. 6th was the anniversary of his brother Tevin's death. I am sure it has been a hard week for Torrey.  I lost my moma almost 7 months ago and it feels like it was yesterday.  I think sometimes as fans we forget players are people too.

No doubt his brothers' anniversary is only adding to the issue. So sorry to hear of your loss.