Official Vent thread vs Indy : who should walk home

[Static]

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/519606681555042304

 

[Inqui]

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/519606681555042304

Yeah, I figured you were referencing that. I just found how you phrased it funny is all.

 

I don't disagree about having fairly low expectations for him, but between him or Franks as the CB4 you wouldn't be relying on a Pro Bowl season or anything anyway.

[Grapple Raven]

It's really too bad the Negative Nancy's have pushed you guys (and other positive contributors) away. This is my first season on the game thread, and it's becoming my own personal hell, also.

 

What bothers me the most is that some of our players have been giving 110% playing through a tremendous amount of pain (I'm thinking specifically Monroe, Canty, Suggs, this year, KO, Haloti last year), and yet we have supposed "fans" who sit on their cushy couches on their computers piling on nothing but criticism if we don't absolutely dominate on every single play..

 

It's sickening. Y'all know who you are, and yeah, I'm calling you out. Hope you get carpal-tunnel from all that typing and learn what it's like to "play through the pain".

I couldn't agree more!!!  By the time I finished the game day thread (and yes I read all 135 pages of it) I was depressed. lol  Just dripping with so much negativity.  If I hadn't known better I would have thought I was reading a thread from the oppositions' message board.  It was actually kind of embarrassing.  God forbid any players or their family members read it, as they do from time to time!

[BmoreBird22]

lol

 

so you just said we blitzed the same number of times - but now you're saying only 20% on Luck & 33% on Newton. That's a double digit difference.

 

I already conceded that I know it is considered a blitz - I believe I stated that - but you are just nitpicking to attempt to seem like you know more I guess. Don't know.

 

Sending 5 LBs as opposed to 4 is counted a blitz - like I said - but that is not what I am referencing. Like I stated.

 

I want to see some disguised blitz packages, I want some creative blitz packages, not just sending 5 straight up.

 

But as of yet, you have not mentioned any numbers regardomg success rate - just how many times we did it. Bear in mind, once again, I was speaking only of the Indy game - and I know the numbers on Luck but while watching the game we were being successful with pressure.

Yes, I don't know what's so hard to understand about math. I blitz five times out of five plays and it's 100%. I blitz five times out of fifty and it's only 10%. Understand?

 

It does not sound like you were saying that, at all, just so you know. Here's what you said.

 

"Just sending 5 guys is not a blitz IMO, depending on the actual way it is done."

 

Now you're just backtracking on your original statement to avoid looking like you don't know what a blitz is.

 

I would like loops, delayed blitzes, stunts, and all that jazz, too, but I also understand some of those blitzes take time to develop and that with the state the secondary is in now, you don't have that much time for that to happen. It just isn't realistic.

 

There's a difference between blitzing and getting pressure. The Ravens, like most teams, are very successful when they get pressure, but unlike most teams, they do not do it with the blitz that often. They just win with their front four.

By the way, you never asked for the numbers, but here they are:

 

No blitz: 88-130, 972 yards, three touchdowns, three interceptions, three sacks. 

When blitzing: 24-39 for 346 yards, one touchdown, zero interceptions, and two sacks.

 

[BmoreBird22]

It's really too bad the Negative Nancy's have pushed you guys (and other positive contributors) away. This is my first season on the game thread, and it's becoming my own personal hell, also.

 

What bothers me the most is that some of our players have been giving 110% playing through a tremendous amount of pain (I'm thinking specifically Monroe, Canty, Suggs, this year, KO, Haloti last year), and yet we have supposed "fans" who sit on their cushy couches on their computers piling on nothing but criticism if we don't absolutely dominate on every single play..

 

It's sickening. Y'all know who you are, and yeah, I'm calling you out. Hope you get carpal-tunnel from all that typing and learn what it's like to "play through the pain".

Yeah, I mean, I do criticize players and their play on the field, but if you go in the game thread, it's a whole different animal. A guy gets tackled for a loss, cut him. A guy allows a first down catch, cut him. Joe threw an interception, end of season. It's incredible and just beyond ridiculous. 

 

I can't say too much because these are extremely conditioned players going out there and playing hard for as long as they do. I am in no position to do that myself, so it's very incredible.

[ravensdfan]

Yes, I don't know what's so hard to understand about math. I blitz five times out of five plays and it's 100%. I blitz five times out of fifty and it's only 10%. Understand?

 

Yes I do understand math, do you? 20% of Indy is 16 blitzes. (you said 10) 33% of Panthers is 21. (you said 10).

 

It does not sound like you were saying that, at all, just so you know. Here's what you said.

 

"Just sending 5 guys is not a blitz IMO, depending on the actual way it is done."

 

Now you're just backtracking on your original statement to avoid looking like you don't know what a blitz is.

 

I would like loops, delayed blitzes, stunts, and all that jazz, too, but I also understand some of those blitzes take time to develop and that with the state the secondary is in now, you don't have that much time for that to happen. It just isn't realistic.

 

There's a difference between blitzing and getting pressure. The Ravens, like most teams, are very successful when they get pressure, but unlike most teams, they do not do it with the blitz that often. They just win with their front four.

By the way, you never asked for the numbers, but here they are:

 

No blitz: 88-130, 972 yards, three touchdowns, three interceptions, three sacks. 

When blitzing: 24-39 for 346 yards, one touchdown, zero interceptions, and two sacks.

 

 

Oh I'm sorry the IMO wasn't a qualifier for you? I mean, I think if I'd meant it wasn't a blitz at all I would have left it off and said something more like:

 

sending 5 guys is not a blitz.

 

you know, just me. My bad, I'll attempt to be more clear.

 

So a 62% completion percentage versus a 68% completion percentage. I mean, I think that's a pretty big difference. I think that could go a long way to getting our defense off the field sooner and one or two more opportunities for our offense.

[Rav'n Maniac]

Biggest gripe I have is Torrey looks like it's a mental issue. He looks somewhat defeated out there as well. Not the same guy as before. Maybe something is getting to him. Not sure what. He just seems different.

I agree. The mental issue is his biggest problem and I feel it begins with his twitter account. He has said he is being bombarded with nasty tweets week in and week out on how much he sucks and so on. The constant ridicule has to be working on him. Shut down the insanity.

[Inqui]

After rewatching the game I'm actually really not that concerned about our defensive showing. At the end of the day, we held the highest-scoring offence to just 20 points in their house, and to two TDs in the red zone - one of which coming from a hold on Dumervil (don't want to come off as ref-blaming, but the reality is it was a reffing mistake and isn't any real systemic issue for us).

 

I get the argument about how easily they moved the chains and etc and all, but it seemed like they had two go-to moves for converting third downs that kept working all day: 1) feed Reggie Wayne (even Jimmy had his struggles, but we aren't seeing him again until the playoffs); 2) pick on Asa Jackson (slightly more concerning, as there's no reason to think Dominique Franks will do much better).

 

The toughest plays to swallow were the long conversions in the fourth quarter, and that came down to some great play by Luck and player mistakes (missed tackles, blown coverages etc - almost certainly from fatigue as they weren't happening in the first three quarters as much).

 

Pernell McPhee was awesome. Everyone's high on CJ for forcing that first pick, but it was McPhee who won his matchup and drew the guard in for support, freeing CJ on his delayed blitz. There were a fair few of those plays on the day. I'd love to see us wrap him up on a three-year deal or something and he's fast becoming my favourite FA from this year's crop. A name no-one's praising is Lawrence Guy, and I thought he quietly had a blinder.

 

Safety play was very good. Matt Elam's looking far more comfortable and far less of a liability, which is great - give him time to keep growing. Terrence Brooks has been promising these past two games, and I think he'll continue to get better. Even Darian Stewart had a good game (aside from two late missed tackles: see above).

 

Torrey Smith wasn't as bad as advertised imo. A couple of his drops were pretty depressing to see and the miscues were pretty bad (hard to say if they were Joe's fault or Torrey's), but it was good to see the two connecting on a few plays. He looked a bit sharper than he had earlier on the season, so hopefully that's the start of him breaking a slump. *touch wood*

 

While I'm at it, I want to say Bernard Pierce is starting to look sharper in this system. He's picking the right holes and not messing around before doing so like he used to. He doesn't have the same playmaking ability as Justin Forsett (who has better balance and is more manoeuvrable), but as long as he keeps the ball under control I think he'll keep improving.

 

The uglier points, though:

*Jacoby on punt returns. He's in a slump, which hopefully he'll break out of in time. That said, I actually wonder if we'll see Michael Campanaro activated sooner rather than later - another receiving option for the short plays wouldn't hurt either.

 

*Joe wasn't too sharp imo. Had a few bad mistakes and poorly thrown balls. I know the OL play didn't help, but Joe does have to shoulder his part in the loss and I think even he'd tell you this wasn't his best game.

 

*OL goes without saying. I have no idea how we looked so good in the past and so hopeless this week. Even KO and Yanda were getting beaten by their guys. On the bright side I didn't see too many incidents where a defender got through unchecked, so hopefully that was just a collective bad game and they can rebound against Tampa.

 

*Lack of receivers hurt too. If Owen Daniels goes down and we face another CB good enough to blank Steve Smith (say, Vontae Davis), Forsett could become our most reliable weapon in the passing game. Let that sink in for a bit.

 

Ah well, onward and upward. Like I said a couple of pages ago, this game was a good team losing on the road to another good team so all is not lost by any stretch. No reason to think we can't rebound from this.

[Grapple Raven]

Biggest gripe I have is Torrey looks like it's a mental issue. He looks somewhat defeated out there as well. Not the same guy as before. Maybe something is getting to him. Not sure what. He just seems different.

I agree. The mental issue is his biggest problem and I feel it begins with his twitter account. He has said he is being bombarded with nasty tweets week in and week out on how much he sucks and so on. The constant ridicule has to be working on him. Shut down the insanity.

 

Oct. 6th was the anniversary of his brother Tevin's death. I am sure it has been a hard week for Torrey.  I lost my moma almost 7 months ago and it feels like it was yesterday.  I think sometimes as fans we forget players are people too.

[berad]

No blitz: 88-130, 972 yards, three touchdowns, three interceptions, three sacks. 

When blitzing: 24-39 for 346 yards, one touchdown, zero interceptions, and two sacks.

How recent are these numbers? In the Colts game Mosley came on a delayed blitz and destroyed Luck, forcing an INT.

[The Mom Gene]

Someone needs to tell Torrey to turn off his Twitter for a while.....

Someone should also tell him that fans can be down right mean and nasty.....  I'd love to put a few of them out there and see what they can do.... 

[Inqui]

Someone needs to tell Torrey to turn off his Twitter for a while.....

Someone should also tell him that fans can be down right mean and nasty.....  I'd love to put a few of them out there and see what they can do.... 

The mind of someone who takes fantasy too seriously is a wretched hive of scum and villainy.

[The Mom Gene]

Yeah, I mean, I do criticize players and their play on the field, but if you go in the game thread, it's a whole different animal. A guy gets tackled for a loss, cut him. A guy allows a first down catch, cut him. Joe threw an interception, end of season. It's incredible and just beyond ridiculous. 

 

I can't say too much because these are extremely conditioned players going out there and playing hard for as long as they do. I am in no position to do that myself, so it's very incredible.

And I am in that game thread every week.... We try very hard to keep things light and fun....  But, I would agree with Inqui up there....  The minds of some of these guys is a wretched hive of scum and villainy....  They take their fantasy stuff way to seriously....  Even those not into the Fantasy stuff...   Their expectations are just ridiculous.

[callahan09]

Precisely. He drops a lot of big passes. He dropped a third down pass in this game. He just isn't sure handed and probably catches less than 50% of his targets.

He's actually under 38% catch rate.  Among 151 players with at least 14 passes targeted to them this season, he has the lowest catch rate.  Last.  151st out of 151.

[beasy2487]

To me, the biggest issue we had in this game was the inability to beat the blitz with the run or the pass. Frankly, Kubes got outcoached by Pagano pretty bad. Pags knew his DBs could match up with our receivers. Steve is the only receiver we have the effectively runs the full route tree, so they slid coverage to his side to force Flacco to other options. They took advantage of that extra second by sending 5 and 6, and because we weren't able to make the right reads (and/or did not have the athleticism to beat their linebackers at the line of scrimmage) we couldn't stay on the field.

 

The Colts masked their deficiencies and exploited ours masterfully. In spite of this, I still chalk some of it up to growing pains in the new offense with new weapons. For example, in the Colts game there was a play where Joe made a hot read to Daniels but Daniels was blanketed by the linebacker and the pass was broken up. Against Carolina, there was a similar play where Daniels cut inside, instead of outside like he did against the Colts, and Kuechly almost picked off the pass because Joe threw to the outside. In the Colts game, if Daniels had cut inside he would've been open. I think if OD and Flacco are on the same page and evolving their reads over the course of the game, in the future they make that play.

 

So all-in-all, did we get embarrassed by one of the better defensive minds in the game? Sure. But I think we've got the guys to learn from it and get better.

[BmoreBird22]

He's actually under 38% catch rate.  Among 151 players with at least 14 passes targeted to them this season, he has the lowest catch rate.  Last.  151st out of 151.

I get not all of those passes are catchable, but good gosh that's awful

[Ravenseconbeast]

I had a feeling "blame kubiak" excuse was going to pop out sooner or later..

[BmoreBird22]

How recent are these numbers? In the Colts game Mosley came on a delayed blitz and destroyed Luck, forcing an INT.

They take into account the Colts game. Mosley didn't actually come on a delayed blitz. He was responsible for covering the running back, but when the running back stayed into block, he read the play until the running back was engaged with McPhee, then came up to rush Luck. It wasn't a designed blitz, just assignment football. 

Ngata may have actually really helped that play happen because he saw he couldn't get into the backfield, so he started to sag off and drop into a short zone and drew two offensive lineman with him, really opening up a big hole.

[BmoreBird22]

And I am in that game thread every week.... We try very hard to keep things light and fun....  But, I would agree with Inqui up there....  The minds of some of these guys is a wretched hive of scum and villainy....  They take their fantasy stuff way to seriously....  Even those not into the Fantasy stuff...   Their expectations are just ridiculous.

It's like they want every single play to be perfect

[BmoreBird22]

Oh I'm sorry the IMO wasn't a qualifier for you? I mean, I think if I'd meant it wasn't a blitz at all I would have left it off and said something more like:

 

sending 5 guys is not a blitz.

 

you know, just me. My bad, I'll attempt to be more clear.

 

So a 62% completion percentage versus a 68% completion percentage. I mean, I think that's a pretty big difference. I think that could go a long way to getting our defense off the field sooner and one or two more opportunities for our offense.

Where are you getting your numbers from? I don't think you're understanding this math, or you're really thinking about this in a totally off way. Indy ran 55 pass plays. 10/55 is about 20%, a bit less, probably around 18%. Cam was in for 31 pass plays. 10/31 is about 33%. Not sure where you're getting your percentages from.

 

It would help if you're more clear because if you say in my opinion, sending five guys isn't a blitz, that sounds like, get this, you don't think it's a blitz. It's not a big deal

 

Go ahead and nitpick the completion percentage, but I see a big difference in 8.9 yards per attempt and 7.5. The latter would put you in the middle of the league, but the second would put you dead last, and it wouldn't be terribly close. I also see a big difference between zero interceptions and three interceptions. By the way, prior the Colts game, the Ravens led in TOP.

[BmoreBird22]

After rewatching the game I'm actually really not that concerned about our defensive showing. At the end of the day, we held the highest-scoring offence to just 20 points in their house, and to two TDs in the red zone - one of which coming from a hold on Dumervil (don't want to come off as ref-blaming, but the reality is it was a reffing mistake and isn't any real systemic issue for us).

 

I get the argument about how easily they moved the chains and etc and all, but it seemed like they had two go-to moves for converting third downs that kept working all day: 1) feed Reggie Wayne (even Jimmy had his struggles, but we aren't seeing him again until the playoffs); 2) pick on Asa Jackson (slightly more concerning, as there's no reason to think Dominique Franks will do much better).

 

Pernell McPhee was awesome. Everyone's high on CJ for forcing that first pick, but it was McPhee who won his matchup and drew the guard in for support, freeing CJ on his delayed blitz. 

I actually don't think that was a hold. Dumervil wasn't trying to turn his body or make a move that would constitute a hold by the offensive lineman. He kept his shoulders square to the offensive lineman, but just could not disengage. I really don't think it was a hold. 

 

Jimmy Smith did not struggle, at all. One catch for two yards. It was mostly Webb and Jackson given up long third down completions for the most part. 

 

CJ didn't blitz on that play. He was tasked with covering the running back, but the running back stayed into block, so Mosley came in on the blitz.

[berad]

They take into account the Colts game. Mosley didn't actually come on a delayed blitz. He was responsible for covering the running back, but when the running back stayed into block, he read the play until the running back was engaged with McPhee, then came up to rush Luck. It wasn't a designed blitz, just assignment football. 

Ngata may have actually really helped that play happen because he saw he couldn't get into the backfield, so he started to sag off and drop into a short zone and drew two offensive lineman with him, really opening up a big hole.

Can you source that as that call? Looked through all the transcripts and listened to the interviews about it, didn't hear that play specifically talked about.

Looks to me more like Smith is keying on the back, Richardson, before dropping further into coverage and Mosley spends a split second in his stance before looking for a lane to get to the QB.

http://www.nflrush.com/story/wk-5-cant-miss-play-ngata-chance/39?icampaign=ru[profanity deleted]eampage_article

Either way, since we've already discussed how a blitz is "vacating" a responsibility to rush the QB, wouldn't it be the same thing?

Ngata did hold back on his pass rush after being double-teamed and dropped back a little, probably looking to deflect a pass but was in position for the nice INT.

[BmoreBird22]

Can you source that as that call? Looked through all the transcripts and listened to the interviews about it, didn't hear that play specifically talked about.Looks to me more like Smith is keying on the back, Richardson, before dropping further into coverage and Mosley spends a split second in his stance before looking for a lane to get to the QB.http://www.nflrush.com/story/wk-5-cant-miss-play-ngata-chance/39?icampaign=ru[profanity deleted]eampage_articleEither way, since we've already discussed how a blitz is "vacating" a responsibility to rush the QB, wouldn't it be the same thing?Ngata did hold back on his pass rush after being double-teamed and dropped back a little, probably looking to deflect a pass but was in position for the nice INT.

I cannot source it as a delayed blitz or anything, but typically, if your man stays into block, you go into rush. Daryl looked like he was playing a deep zone. He started following the inside receiver almost immediately off the snap before dropping to the outside. I'd venture to say that's his responsibility on the play, not man coverage.

I don't personally consider it a blitz. Suppose it could be one, but it wasn't a designed or called blitz. It was more Mosley reading the play really well and making a good move.

Ngata played really smart on that one. Can't argue with his football IQ

[arnie_uk]

I haven't watched it again but at the time i thought it was a delayed blitz because they had a rookie centre in

[berad]

I cannot source it as a delayed blitz or anything, but typically, if your man stays into block, you go into rush. Daryl looked like he was playing a deep zone. He started following the inside receiver almost immediately off the snap before dropping to the outside. I'd venture to say that's his responsibility on the play, not man coverage.

I don't personally consider it a blitz. Suppose it could be one, but it wasn't a designed or called blitz. It was more Mosley reading the play really well and making a good move.

Ngata played really smart on that one. Can't argue with his football IQ

Where did those numbers come from then? About the stats on blitz plays vs non-blitz?

I'm just curious because this instance just shows the disparity of seeing the same play and interpreting multiple different things from it. And, in the absence of definite proof from a player or coach, who's to say the other is wrong?

edit - also this site has called it a blitz a number of times. Wrriten by the staff writers so take it for what it is, I know they're not Ron Jaworski:

This frame shows that the linebacker had a 9-yard running start as he ran through the offensive line on a delayed blitz to hit Luck.

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/What-You-Missed-In-Colts-Game/d36c00bb-6ce1-4a86-809b-6d4dc92a62df

[BmoreBird22]

Where did those numbers come from then? About the stats on blitz plays vs non-blitz?

I'm just curious because this instance just shows the disparity of seeing the same play and interpreting multiple different things from it. And, in the absence of definite proof from a player or coach, who's to say the other is wrong?

edit - also this site has called it a blitz a number of times. Wrriten by the staff writers so take it for what it is, I know they're not Ron Jaworski:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/What-You-Missed-In-Colts-Game/d36c00bb-6ce1-4a86-809b-6d4dc92a62df

I got it from PFF, and I do actually agree with them that it wasn't a called blitz, and I think that's why they accredited it to the "non-blitz" category.

Ryan Mink has about as good a guess as PFF. He doesn't know the exact play call, either, but in this situation, it definitely does not look like a called blitz. I guess you could call it a blitz because the linebacker was an additional rusher, but I'm 95% certain covering the running back was his first responsibility.  Mosley doesn't even start coming up for a blitz until after the back shows he's blocking

[ravensdfan]

Where did those numbers come from then? About the stats on blitz plays vs non-blitz?

I'm just curious because this instance just shows the disparity of seeing the same play and interpreting multiple different things from it. And, in the absence of definite proof from a player or coach, who's to say the other is wrong?

edit - also this site has called it a blitz a number of times. Wrriten by the staff writers so take it for what it is, I know they're not Ron Jaworski:

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/What-You-Missed-In-Colts-Game/d36c00bb-6ce1-4a86-809b-6d4dc92a62df

 

No one is going to have the same blitzing numbers, it is kind of like drops, somewhat subjective, despite his holier than thou attitude.

 

I was really trying to point out the disparity between the numbers and our success when blitzing while everyone laments how horrid we are when we do so. Which isn't the case at all, so I've proven my point.

[berad]

I got it from PFF, and I do actually agree with them that it wasn't a called blitz, and I think that's why they accredited it to the "non-blitz" category.

Ryan Mink has about as good a guess as PFF. He doesn't know the exact play call, either, but in this situation, it definitely does not look like a called blitz. I guess you could call it a blitz because the linebacker was an additional rusher, but I'm 95% certain covering the running back was his first responsibility.  Mosley doesn't even start coming up for a blitz until after the back shows he's blocking

Was worried about that. Guess we'll have to wait until a player/coach confirms what the call was or it'll just be an unknown.

[berad]

No one is going to have the same blitzing numbers, it is kind of like drops, somewhat subjective, despite his holier than thou attitude.

 

I was really trying to point out the disparity between the numbers and our success when blitzing while everyone laments how horrid we are when we do so. Which isn't the case at all, so I've proven my point.

We won't get it unless someone is privy to the playcall.

[ravensdfan]

We won't get it unless someone is privy to the playcall.

 

Well yeah, if the coach or someone comes out and says so that would be different.

 

My only point was that despite our weak secondary, we are successful with the blitz. What everyone remembers is when it fails because that is what is obvious.